Replacing all brake lines south of ABS need advice

Hey guys,

I have had this reoccurring problem with my T1N 2003 2500 140", the pedal, after full bleeding will be hard, then after about 30-40 minutes of travel will go all the way to the floor, I have replaced the master cylinder 3 times now as well as the brake booster and the front right caliper, the pads have also been replaced in the rear as well.

I have found this thread:
http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/12270/dodge/sprinter/sprinter-brake-pedal-falls-away-or-soft

It details this mysterious problem that a lot of us are having with the sprinters brake system, the only components I have not replaced are the ABS unit and the three calipers besides the front passenger. While I was under the van (a place that has I have become very familiar with) I noticed that some of the brake lines and fittings are rusted worse than a shipwreck.

I was wondering if extreme rust would eventually create holes small enough for air to enter, but not fluid to escape?

In any case, I am looking into replacing all these lines, as well as the distro block in the rear of the vehicle, does anyone have any resources that you think i would find helpful?

Has anyone done this work themselves?

Thank you for your time!

I'm assuming it does stop ok. If it doesn't then stop reading.

If it does stop, please review this thread:

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11995

in particular posting number 3

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100151&postcount=3

-Jon

Jon,
I believe that this one surfaced during your break from the forum. If my memory is correct it is not the "different" feel of the Sprinter brakes.

I recall that air was intruding and the OP was considering some odd work-arounds.

To the OP.

I think that this was pointed out in the original discussion, but here goes. There have been several Sprinters discussed here which had air intrusion into their brake system without showing leaks or loss of fluid. The problems went away after they replaced the ABS/CAB module unit. My theory is that it is somehow related to the brake fluid pump which is employed for the ESP, ASR, and CAB operations. During times of shutdown and changing ambient temperatures air finds its way in. After the air is entrained it either migrates around or otherwise provides a cushion air bubble which causes loss of pedal. The volume of fluid created/moved by a brake pedal stroke is not very great.

The ABS module part is not cheap.

You didn't include that part per your replacement list.

vic

The van does not "stop" correctly, no, after around 30-40 minutes on the highway the pedal is gone, =no brakes, very scary, I have bought a phoenix reverse brake bleeder and I have to set a stop watch and after 35 minutes, I park it and bleed it from the front left, this gives me another 35 minutes of driving.

Also, I didn't include the ABS as a part that I have replaced, I will probably order a used one off of ebay, oem units are 1800

This is the unit I have found, $250 aint bad, but is there any tricky things with IDs or the ECU recognizing it? should be a pretty simple swap no?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ABS-PUMP-w-...0-ANTI-LOCK-BRAKE-ID-0004466489-/261294880650

Also, is there any way I could test the ABS unit before I get a new one?

also, a friend has informed me that there is a special "brake line wrench" for 'breaking' the lines free, is he just pulling my chain or does this tool exist? Looks like just a standard wrench would do the trick?

Also, I cant find any brake line "sets" meaning a kit with all the brake lines already bent and ready for instal, so I would like to do it myself from SS lines or the copper ones maybe, does anyone here know the sizes of the fittings?

I believe you need access to a DAD or DAD-like code reader to bleed the abs system properly.
On the other hand, I remember reading recently about a way to bleed the system using a gravel road or something. Search for recent posts (like in the last week) from Lindenengineering (aka Dennis).
Good luck and I'm interested in hearing what happens. It looks like I may have to replace the ABS unit in one of my vans, too.

yeah, i think you can cycle the abs by just having it engage while locking up on a gravel road, I have done this before, but it did not fix my problem, can you tell me why you are replacing your abs unit? Is it a similar problem?

Ilia Barannikov said:

... or the copper ones maybe,

Click to expand...

Copper? Are you certain for brake lines?

Ilia Barannikov said:

...does anyone here know the sizes of the fittings?

Click to expand...

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26307&highlight=brake


vic

Ilia Barannikov said:

also, a friend has informed me that there is a special "brake line wrench" for 'breaking' the lines free, is he just pulling my chain or does this tool exist? Looks like just a standard wrench would do the trick?
<snip>

Click to expand...

I used to use a normal wrench in my dad's front end alignment and brake shop, but he preferred using wrench he called "a line wrench." It's also known as a "flare nut wrench."

They look like this:



A normal wrench doesn't fit as well, so you run a heavier risk of malforming metal.


-Jon

Aqua Puttana said:

Copper? Are you certain for brake lines?


https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26307&highlight=brake


vic

Click to expand...

yes, copper nickel i believe, wont rust, unless there are other reasons not to use this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/251248975282?lpid=82

thanks so much for the help, also, just found some brake lines on ebay pre-made for the sprinter, seems like ive spent countless hours looking for things, and somehow things still escape my cyber vision.

+1 for using proper flare spanners - much less likely to round off brass brake union nuts than a regular spanner/wrench.

Vehicle manufacturers make brake lines in steel because it's cheap and they have a factory to make them in.
In UK at least most DIY mechanics make replacement lines in 3/16" copper pipe because it is easy to bend to shape and soft enough for the cheap DIY flare tools to make the correct flares in the ends.
Most workshops will have more expensive flare tools capable of flaring copper-nickel brake pipe, but may still use copper for economics unless the customer specifies copper-nickel.
Stainless lines are available, but you will need a good quality flaring tool to shape the ends, a single die will probably cost more than all the tools, copper pipe and union nuts you would need to replace all the lines in copper, and that's not including the tool to use the die in.....

Unless US laws prohibit it, I would suggest using copper line if it's your first time making brake lines. Despite it's softness use a bender for sharp radiuses to avoid kinking, and make sure you clip it up pretty well - it will work harden due to vibration if you leave long lengths unsupported and then it may suffer brittle failure (which might be a reason it could be prohibited?).

I'm actually considering getting a better tool and using copper-nickel lines in future, but so far all the copper ones I have made (on my car) have been good and pass MOT every year. My Sprinter appears to have had all the lines replaced with copper by PO's, most have not been routed very neatly and there are variations in colour indicating different ages.
Over here brake lines are inspected as part of the annual MOT - rusting steel lines will fail inspection, home built copper replacements pass it (remember, different countries, different laws). Copper will corrode to verdigris eventually, copper-nickel is much more corrosion resistant.

Still no ideas about your actual problem though. Sometimes the rubber hose sections to the calipers soften and you lose pedal feel as they expand rather than the pistons moving, but that wouldn't explain why you get 30 minutes before they go spongy.

Ilia Barannikov said:

yes, copper nickel i believe, wont rust, unless there are other reasons not to use this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/251248975282?lpid=82

Click to expand...

Be warned, those photos show copper brake pipe, copper-nickel is more yellowy, kind of like aged silver:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2513...&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=95

I'm not saying they are not supplying copper-nickel, but the photo they have used is not of copper-nickel!

If anyone could find those threads (or explain a proper way to search the forum, I constantly use google) that indicated a similar problem with air entering brake system without any leaks, that was fixed with replacing the ABS that would be really helpful, last thing I need is to buy another part that doesnt work. And yes, I will be using the copper lines.

I've made the decision to spend the time and money de-rusting, re-painting, and fixing all my problems on the sprinter, despite all the problems with it, there is no other work vehicle that I would rather have, it handles great, has amazing gas mileage and has 170k on it, so hopefully there are many more years of operation I can expect out of it.

You're going to bend, assemble and flare your own brake lines and fasteners?

-Jon

PS: For tools, Sears is your friend.

Ok, go up to the very top of the webpage. Look in that box on the right where it says "Welcome, Ilia Barannikov"
Right below that is a darker blue bar. In it are the words (from the right to left) "log out" "quick links" and "SEARCH". THERE is the search function for the forum. Learn how to use the advanced features to narrow down the search. Good luck!
To answer your previous question to me about why I am considering replacing my ABS, it's because I have had a problem with one of my wheel sensors and it disabling my ABS. Looks like I *just* figured out that it's bad wiring right in the ABS harness/plug. So no need for a new ABS unit, I just need the harness and plug with about 1 foot or more of the wiring.

Sorry to thread jack.. but does anybody know what size plug I would need to plug up the rear ports in the master cylinder? Lost rear brake lines and need to drive the van to a mechanic.

cloead said:

Sorry to thread jack.. but does anybody know what size plug I would need to plug up the rear ports in the master cylinder? Lost rear brake lines and need to drive the van to a mechanic.

Click to expand...

The sizes are in the link I posted here earlier.

Not that you asked...

Try this at your own risk, but it has worked for me. I just crimp off the bad line and leave the other wheels in service.

I've had good success doing this. Cut the bad brake line off in a good accessible spot. Use Vice Grips to crimp the line down for an inch or so. Bend the crimped line back on itself and inspect that the line didn't crack. If OK, crush the Vice Grips on the bent end. Leave the Vice Grips in place with support baling wire or tape to keep them from falling off.

Drive to service.

vic

Aqua Puttana said:

The sizes are in the link I posted here earlier.

Not that you asked...

Try this at your own risk, but it has worked for me. I just crimp off the bad line and leave the other wheels in service.

I've had good success doing this. Cut the bad brake line off in a good accessible spot. Use Vice Grips to crimp the line down for an inch or so. Bend the crimped line back on itself and inspect that the line didn't crack. If OK, crush the Vice Grips on the bent end. Leave the Vice Grips in place with support baling wire or tape to keep them from falling off.

Drive to service.

vic

Click to expand...

Ah ok thanks, got them.

Yeah.. might just do that. The shop is ~4 miles from where the van is at. But the van is ~1 hour away from me. Inconvenient! Looking at buying all the tools to do it myself and have the van AAA'ed home but it might cost just as much as having them do it. Also afraid of AAA not realizing the brakes arent working and crashing it into their tow truck or something dumb.

Excellent work Vic - I was going to guess at M10x1.0, been meaning to get some blanking plugs for a while so I can remove my brake lines to work on the rust around spring mounts. You just saved me buying extras in other sizes 'just in case'

Well I bought a bubble flare tool.. going to attempt to replace the lines myself in the dealership parking lot :rofl:

Anybody know if there is a junction somewhere between the rear rubber lines and the front of the van where I can disconnect? Or am I going to be cutting & flaring the line under the van.