Heating option on family 2015 ?

SARGONMAIL

New member
Hello all I have been looking at all the threads on here. I see a lot of opinion and some fact. I would like both as well. I will be using it as a daily driver for the family. Hauling toy kids and dogs. This question is which heating option (Live in the northeast). I will be waiting for the 2500 standard roof 4x4 model with the v6:yell: (rather v4) I'm all about mpg.

So I am familiar with webasto on my 03 f-350 love it would melt the snow off the roof windshield and heated the 4 door cab in low temps. Espar being the same kind of. Some here :bash: say the remote does not work or the heat does not do a decent job.

Yes I'm aware that it's five time the size of the f350. Let start with does it heat the coolant enough to when I get out and start it will it have hot air blowing.
Is it worth purchasing as an option. My webasto has the remote and the timer to start in the am and when I leave work. Is this feature on the Espar . Rear heating options which one
( young kids and two babies) so I need it warm. One of the threads said the rear unit smelled of diesel in the cab ? How many you have experienced this? The dealer was no help and lot of hype. As to which package does what and just wanted to add them all Per dealer (never have too much heat or ac right) How well does it work will it keep the kids warm in the winter . For me it's a deal breaker if the kids are not ok. I saw some thoughts on putting more insulation yourself with a tool one could purchase how simple would if be to find this tool and the oem insulation? A side note I saw no complaints about the ac an thoughts? Thank you for your thought :bow:.


The picture shows the options which one should I check off :doh:
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
I bought the optional Espar heater when I purchased my 08 Sprinter. The option I bought has two switch positions. One switch position turns the Espar on with the engine running and the second switch position turns on the Espar with the engine off.

The diesel does not have enough heat rejection in low temperature conditions to enable the coolant to get up to its normal 193 degree operating temperature. The Espar can be started to get the coolant up to operating temperature and keep it there.

The Espar can be run without the engine running to warm the interior. You can program it to come on at a specific time. When it comes on it automatically operates the fan at low speed. You are limited to 1 hour of operation. Espar will not start if you have less than 1/4 tank of fuel and/or you have not set the interior heat knob above ambient.

Mercedes has bastardized the Espar. They removed the water pump (or disabled it) and use the Mercedes water circulation pump mounted on the firewall instead. They control it with the Mercedes computer instead of the available Espar controller. So what you get is a water heater that is not standard Espar. Mine just quit after 5 years and the comment I got from the local Mercedes dealer is: "we do not know anything about the Espar to repair it". Called a couple of authorized Espar service locations and got he reply: "we do not have any experience with the Espar installed by Mercedes but we will look at it". So what you end up with is something Mercedes does not know how to repair and Espar has not seen. The other disadvantage of the Mercedes/Espar is the Espar controller with diagnostics is not used. You do not have the Espar diagnostics. My conclusion is to avoid purchasing the Mercedes supplied semi-Espar. If you want an Espar buy it from Espar dealer with the 7 day timer/diagnostics. That way you have a pure Espar system that can be serviced by Espar.

The heat produced by the Espar works very well to heat the interior of my 144" WB Sprinter. I turn it on before going to bed, let van get cold at night and then turn it on again in the morning to heat the interior. During the night I use a zero degree rated sleeping bag with a 12 volt heating pad under the bag. Refrigerator runs less and the Espar does not make noise. About the same amount of power used. Power used by the heating pad is offset by less power used by the refrigerator in a cold van.

So the Espar should work well but would not recommend the Mercedes version. Most people on this forum use the Espar air heater instead of the Espar water heater. Less power used because the air heater does not require power for the water pump. You will find a lot of information on this forum on how to install the Espar air heater.
 

SARGONMAIL

New member
Thanks Dave. I am really looking into Espar post purchase I would have to find a installer I could trust . I would like a factory look after spending all that cash. How much crap would I get from mb IE threaten me about warranty etc.
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Every dealership is an independent business, so the amount of crap you get from the dealership is pretty much up to local management.
-Jon
 

SARGONMAIL

New member
Nothing new I guess would a Webasto be a better option. I want to put one and not worry about it when it breaks. Don't want finger pointing cause I could see that happening. I want the kids to be comfortable and everything else is secondary .I will be keeping this van for 10 years or more lot of cash to being putting down to have **** not work. Anybody out there have put either unit post purchase . Thanks JD
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Ask your dealership if they have a good relationship with a local upfitter, and then see if you're comfortable with named businesses.

That's the safest path.

If they don't, then consider an alternative to the Sprinter. When Sprinters work for someone, they get fierce loyalty. When the Sprinter doesn't work for someone, they get severe disparagement. There's rarely an in-between.



-Jon
 
Greetings, and welcome to the forum! I'm also in the northeast (Cape Cod) and have a 2014 144" hi-roof Crew van on order, due about mid-April. It took me about 3 weeks and at least a couple of order changes before I had the rather complicated heater options figured out; even the salesman has a somewhat limited knowledge of the fine points of the different options. Based on what your needs and wishes are, I would advise AGAINST going with the "Cold Weather Package," which includes the auxiliary coolant heater (HZ5, 5 kiloWatt) which only operates with the engine running. Instead, I would avoid any heating "package," and go to the "Options and Accessories" menu and select either the "Heater, Auxiliary Warm Water with Timer," which includes the "Heater, Auxiliary Rear" ($990 + $680=$1670) or, if you don't feel you need the extra coolant-powered heater for the rear seating area, go back to the "Packages" and order the "Auxiliary Heating Package." This includes a fuel-fired coolant heater (designated H12) with timer which operates without the engine on, but it's less powerful at 5 kilowatt (17,000Btu), and also includes rear auxiliary heater "prep," meaning hoses are run to the spot where the rear auxiliary heater would be installed, so it can be installed later if desired. It costs $1605, so you are only saving $65 over the cost of the more powerful heater with the rear heat already installed. The details are: both the 5 kW and the 10 kW heaters can be turned on and off manually or operated via a timer built into the dash. It is set either by the dash buttons or, if you get the multi-function steering wheel (with buttons) the timer is controlled from there. Both can also be operated via an optional remote control. Once the engine is running, they operate as "booster heaters" as needed unless turned off. Drawbacks: these heaters only run for a maximum of an hour without the engine (less time if it is warmer outside); they can be restarted, but will only run for at most two hours, to safeguard the battery. Also-thanks to some obscure regulation by our EPA-they won't run at all if the outside temp is over 39ºF. The fuel pick up tube doesn't reach to the bottom of the tank; it will shut down at about 1/4 tank. An aftermarket unit will not have these restrictions, although I recommend that the fuel setup be similar, so you won't run out of fuel (these Diesel engines don't like pumping air). From what I can tell, the auxiliary rear heat cannot be ordered as a stand-alone if you get an aftermarket Espar or Webasto coolant heater. If I were in your shoes and decided to go with the factory installed auxiliary heat, I'd order the "Heater, Auxiliary Warm Water with Timer." You can also order individually the "Insulation, Front" and "Insulation, Rear." If you're nervous about service issues with the factory Espar, have an aftermarket coolant heater installed.

For what it's worth, here's what I've ordered, bearing in mind that the heat options for the Crew Van are slightly different (less varied) than for the Passenger version. I ordered the H12 5-kW coolant heater and the optional remote control. Since I'm having the van upfitted for work with a partition, workbench and shelving, I'm having the upfitter install a Webasto Airtop 2000, the most modest warm-air heater they make, to heat the rear work area. There is no auxiliary rear heater available for the Crew, and besides, I want to be able to have heat when I'm parked and working in back.

Not sure where you're located, but I bought my van at Flagship Motorcars in Lynnfield, Ma. The upfitter is AAA Worktrucks in Billerica, Ma. They are an authorized dealer (and service center!!!) for Webasto.

Guess I'll be a guinea-pig regarding the repair situation vis-a-vis the factory Espar, since that's what I've ordered. It looks like you've got a long wait ahead of you if you ordered a '15; once I receive mine I'll be posting on here my experiences with my new Sprinter; if it's still cold enough at night for the auxiliary heat to run (I wouldn't be surprised if it is), I'll put up the results. Hope this long-winded post helps...
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
<snip>
Based on what your needs and wishes are, I would advise AGAINST going with the "Cold Weather Package," which includes the auxiliary coolant heater (HZ5, 5 kiloWatt) which only operates with the engine running. Instead, I would avoid any heating "package,"
<snip>
That's a broad sweeping statement albeit with the best intention.

I know this topic is focused on heating the air in the van, but there is one heating package that I love: the heated windshield and side mirrors. It removes the the burden of snow and ice scraping while standing outside the van. It's really nice; luxurious nice.

-Jon
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
I did miss one part of your original post. The Sprinter has a electric heating element installed in the air duct for the dash heat. If you have the dash thermostat set to warm the interior, the electric heating element turns on when you start the engine. You do not have any control of this heater. It comes on automatically and turns off automatically when coolant temperature gets up to 140-150 degrees. The heating element draws enough power that I can determine when it is operating by observing the voltage reading on my ScanGage. My normal voltage reading with the heater off is 13.9-14.1 volts. When electric heater is operating the voltage reading drops down to 13.3-13.4. I watched the ScanGage voltage and coolant temperature readings to determine the turn off temperature. Voltage changed to the higher value when the coolant temperature reached 140-150 degrees.

Again I would definitely avoid any purchase of a Mercedes installed Espar.
 
I did order the heated mirrors, but when I asked the salesman about the replacement cost of the heated windshield, I decided against it. Here on Cape Cod, it's not uncommon for storms to either drop limbs on windshields, or (as happened to me twice) sandblast them until they resemble frosted lightbulbs. Anywhere else, I might have sprung for it-sounds like a great idea!

Didn't mean to paint with a broad brush regarding aux. heater packages. It sounds like Sargon wants to be able to run it without the engine, using a timer. I originally ordered the cold weather package, but after looking into it I realized that the aux. heater it comes with, the HZ5, only works with the engine. The only way I could get the timed, independent heater was to order it as a stand-alone, which I believe is also true for the Passenger version. If I'm mistaken, I certainly stand corrected.

I'm now apprehensive about having ordered the factory Espar, but it's too late-the build date is this Wednesday. I can only hope that if there's a problem that either it happens under warranty (so they have to replace it) or that Mercedes service has gotten up to speed on repairing them. Oh, well....:idunno:
 

SARGONMAIL

New member
Thank you for the Welcome and the long post it was very helpful and after reading a couple of times I finally understood it. It was very well explained and I see why the dealers are lost. You also answered some other questions I had been thinking of today. I live in New Hampshire (it was - 18F the other night) and I travel to Pennsylvanian northern New Jersey several times a month. As I stated it will be my family daily driver. I'm sorry if was not clear in my original post. I would have ordered the colder weather package for $1,095 for the espar to preheat the engine and the heated seat are a very nice touch that I have come to enjoy. The number two reason for the auxiliary heating in the back for the kids . I didn't know if the standard heating would get to the back where the kids would be. It's nice that it can the auxiliary heating can run when the engine is off so I can preheat the area where the kids would be (again my main concern). I saw one poster say the rear heartier was not worth the plastic it was built with. Stating it barley put out heat. The respone to that was placing a aftermarket Espar in the rear. Which one person stated that the kids complained of diesel smell ,but was not clear weather it was the factory unit or aftermarket Espar. It was a pretty old post so I could not post. During my 6 hour commute today I had a great idea I will just order the rear heat package alone and go to Espar directly and get the engine heater put in by them. You killed that idea Daybreak. Then I started to read post about 39 temp restrictions and yes that sucks but what can you do. The issue that concerned me was the fact that MB wants to replace it if it hiccups instead of fixing and espar can't fix because of the Mb integration into computer/ frankinsteining it. Which Dave brought up as well. The warranty thing is kind of an after thought cause I put on about 40k miles and the warranty would be done in two or less years. The question now is how many people have had their pre engine heaters fail. Jd the heated mirrors are needed without question. The windshield seems so nice but I have had to repair or replace them one to many times. Your thoughts ? Thanks again
 
Sargon-in my lengthy previous post, I provided an erroneous option number for the booster heater. The auxiliary "booster" heater which comes with the Cold Weather Package (and only operates with the engine running) is designated HZ9, not HZ5 as I quoted earlier. HZ5 is the more powerful (10 kW or 34,000 Btu) auxiliary coolant heater which WILL work without the engine, and is only available with the rear auxiliary heater. I don't think the rear heater will work without the engine on, but the front one will (in conjunction with the aux. coolant heater). I believe that the posting referring to the rear heater "not worth the plastic it's made of" actually is in reference to an optional heating duct meant to conduct some heat from the front heater to the passenger area (option #HO0); I ordered it for my van, we'll see if it works. My current Chevy Astro has something like that, and it's kind of weak. Anyway, you might be on the right path to have aftermarket Espars or Webastos installed, to ensure service will be available. I went with the factory coolant heater, and an aftermarket Webasto for the work area in back. I've only seen a few postings by people having trouble with the factory Espars, but sooner or later they'll need a glow plug replaced, or something. Hopefully I didn't shoot myself in the foot by going with the factory Espar in front, but I'm buying the extended warranty so I'll be covered for a good while. Maybe by then MB will get it together to service these heaters.....

I ordered the heated mirrors (and the enhanced driver safety package w/Parktronic, etc. As I mentioned, I decided against the heated windshield. Sounds like a great idea, and I'm sure it is, but where I live it's pretty likely I'd end up replacing it more than once over the life of the truck. With the coolant heater-and the electric elements which Dave mentioned (standard equipment in all Sprinters)-it shouldn't take long for the defroster to do its thing.

Anyway, good luck with it, and I hope you don't have to wait too long for it to arrive!
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
In your area of the country I would have a diesel fueled aux. heater if I had a diesel engine. It would be an aftermarket installation with the 7 day timer/diagnostic controller. That way you control the heater instead of Mercedes dictating what you can or cannot do. Service will also be available. Probably would cost more but the additional cost would be worth the advantages. Maybe the correct solution is both a diesel fueled air and a water heater. Water to heat the engine prior to starting in winter and air to heat the interior.
Another choice for interior air heating would be installing a 1000 watt inverter powered by the Sprinter 12 volt system. A 750 watt electric heater could then be installed in the back of the van. Disadvantage is the heat is only available when the engine is running. Cost would be $250 for the inverter, $100 for the electric heater, $100 for a relay plus installation. I will do this system for my next conversion.
Another choice is to wait for the Ford Transit and buy a gas engine with an electric block heater to eliminate the need for a cooling water heater.
 

SARGONMAIL

New member
Thanks for the correction. Let me ask this does anyone one know if the standard heater warm the back are there any vent s back there already. Im going to hit another dealer on tuesday. I only seen cargo or crew van. No one I has so far has had a passenger van in stock. I won't be ordering till the end of the year at the earliest unless I loose my mind. I want to see the reports on the 4wd and make sure there is no issue there before the purchase. Just looked at the ford connect and is a world apart in space. I first looked at these for two reasons the diesel engine , which meant better gas mileage for me that means in the 20 + range. The only other option for me that I could see was a suburban , which a 2015 4wd model starts at $52k. They are still a little tight when you put in 3 kids in car seats and 150 pound dog. The mpg is not there either I realize that they two different class of auto but my needs are the same . I'm in a position to where there is no rush to purchase a vehicle. I want research the crap out of this big chunk of cash to live with for a very long time. Got to figure it is going to be another 10 years before I downsize to mid full size suv. The maker does not really matter to me as long as it does the job. I just stubbled onto the sprinter and it seems perfect a little more space than I needed but what can you do. Defiantly better mpg than the suburban from the reports here. The price point is huge when you compare the two. I do my oil changes and basic stuff so some $$ saved there not much but some. Now I come to find the heating issue to be a sore spot for many. Engine heater aside which seems I'm leaning towards an aftermarket purchase. Is the rear heat enough. I don't have to preheat the rear as long as when the truck is running the heat is good back there. Dave the electric heater is something to look into further. The inverter is a nice option as well considering we do a lot of outdoor actives .

Thanks

MARC
 
Last edited:

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
1. No vents in back unless you purchase the optional rear heat package with the optional Espar. In 08 that gave you an additional heat exchanger/fan located behind the drivers seat. For my use the dash vents provide enough heat in a 144" WB Sprinter but I live in a much milder climate than you. I would have an aftermarket Espar/Webasto in your climate if I had a diesel engine.

2. Ford Transit Connect was not the Transit I was referring to. In June a larger Transit very much like the Sprinter is due. Refer to Ford "commercial" web site for details. No 4 wheel drive initially.

3. Do not assume the diesel is less costly to operate. In 08 it was more clear cut when I bought my Sprinter when diesel was 30 cents/gallon less than gas. Now in my area diesel is 40 cents/gallon more. There are additional costs to a diesel compared to gas. Initial purchase price, fuel filter changes, 13 quarts (V6) of high cost low ash oil each oil change, DEF additive and potential higher maintenance costs due to a lot more emission stuff. A lot of miles/year are required to get savings. At 15,000 miles/year the operating costs are within $500/year. Do the math for your usage.
 

SARGONMAIL

New member
I thinking I will definitely get the heating set up from upfitter or whatever the call them. The ford transit looks like it has potential depending on mileage cost and associated cost. The 4 wd is a must but again I have till the end of the yr or next. To see and hear reports , I hear you on operating costs. When I got my f350 in 2000 I was paying 40 to 50 cents less.No longer the case and gas engines are better made. The maintenance costs for gas has gone up no where near the diesel. The oil cost is about the same for me and if anything it may stay the same. I do my own grease monkey work. I like to do it and a cost saving is a motivator. What I have seen is that gas auto mpg tends to go down a lot more than the diesels I drive at work. They tend to be in the shop less too. Now that being said that just me there could be a 100 other people saying the opposite. Now when is comes to being a MB it means very little to me except it used to mean a very well made car.I thought it was a freightliner first and was kinda of taken back when it was sold by MB knowing the cost would be more cause of the price. You can tell me if the fit and finish ride is like. Below is the gov site I used for price checking. Please don't take my points as oppositional I just rather you prove me wrong than just me being ignorant. Thanks for your help




http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
I think the Sprinter drives very well. I do not think its quality is any better or worse than the alternates. Parts and service are higher. Do a little searching to determine cost of new engine, transmission and rear end. Interesting that the V6 has had almost no posts due to mechanical failure. Transmission and rear end have had more posts. Rusting has been a constant subject of posts. I have a Graphite Gray optional color and have had no rusting problem but I do not live where roads are salted. Maybe the optional color gets another coat? I see white under chips and where paint is worn through on the door steps.

Best you do the math on operating costs so it reflects your intended use. All I know is the operating costs of gas and diesel are not that substantial at todays fuel prices. Be sure to include all factors, not just the mpg differences.
 
It may be a bit of a hike from N.H., but last time I was at my salesman's dealership (Flagship Motorcars, Lynnfield, Ma.) they had a couple of passenger Sprinters; I believe they had a 144" and a 170". Of course, that can change. There are dealerships in Shrewsbury (which may be closer to you), Westfield and Warwick, R.I. Not sure what to tell you regarding the rear coolant-powered heater which runs off engine coolant; my Chevy Astro has one and I consider it essential in that vehicle-you might ask on here for owners of passenger vans so equipped to weigh in. Regarding the aux. heater issue, as I mentioned I'm getting the H12 timer-controlled coolant heater. This option costs $960, not counting the remote which adds $330. It warms the engine and at a predetermined temperature will activate the front heater/defroster if the switch is left on. Thus, you come out to a warm engine and warm van. I'm adding an aftermarket Diesel-fired Webasto warm-air heater for the back. For that I'm paying $1250 for the heater and $450 for installation. I can only guess that if I had gone with an aftermarket coolant heater, it would be considerably more than the $1700 I'm paying for the air heater, due to the additional "plumbing," and of course more than the $960 which MB is charging for the coolant heater. Kind of a "Hobson's Choice," with no "right" answer. Pay more up front and not face serviceability issues, or pay considerably less and possibly have repair issues down the road.:idunno:

As regards paint/rust issues: from what I've been able to gather from posts, salesmen, etc. it would seem that MB has acknowledged a problem and has changed their protocols for body prepping and painting to reflect that. I can only hope so, as the Cape is not friendly territory to steel under any circumstances-especially in winter.

Dave's got a good point regarding operating costs. I've always been a fan of Diesel engines, and until recently comparative economy of operation was a no-brainer. With Diesel fuel in my neck of the woods in the $4.21 to $4.35/gal. range, and the increased complexity and demands of the new emission controls, I'm guessing that I'll find that the improved fuel mileage over my Astro will be compromised by the increased price per gallon and the need for DEF. Hopefully, when (if) our winter winds down and heating oil demand tapers off, this may be reflected in the price of Diesel, which has the same source base. Sprinter mileage figures for both current and previous versions seem to me to be much better than its competition (Econoline, Chevy and GMC vans, Dodge Ram, etc.) All things being equal, the Diesel engine should have a considerably longer service life, if properly maintained. At this point I'm satisfied with the choices I've made; we'll see if that holds up once I have the van. Good luck with your decision-making, hope you've found my admittedly long-winded posts somewhat helpful!
 
I live in Eastern Mass. bought my white '12 144 Crew from Flagship. This winter I installed one of these: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30426&highlight=coolant+heater to help speed starting and warmup this winter. I am looking at retrofitting the small Espar air heater at some point so I can have cabin heat on demand (without access to shore power or running my portable generator) when the van is parked and engine is off. My van was equipped with the KL1 Auxiliary Diesel Fuel Tap, so the fuel plumbing part will be much easier.

I insulated my van with EZ-Cool insulation (see: http://www.lobucrod.com/) the first summer I owned it, mostly to help keep it cooler in summer. I seldom use my van in winter, but this past winter when I did drive it I found the stock factory heating system was able to warm the entire van to a comfortable temp in about 10 minutes of driving on the coldest days we have had, assuming the coolant heater had been plugged in overnight. I installed the insulation that first summer and before it was done I could not get the back ofthe cabin cool using the stock AC on a sunny 90 degree day. After the insulation work the stock AC will cool the entire van.

My use of the Espar will probably be almost entirely in the late fall up in Vermont, where I "camp" at the last hillclimb of the season. Up to now I have just used a 1000W electric heater running off a generator to warm it before bedtime and relied on the insulation to keep it from getting too chilly overnight and the biggest issues has been moisture buildup in the cabin (which a product like the Espar air heater would cure) so I have been slow to do it.

This winter I updated the audio system speakers and found the 1000W heater by itself would not warm the van from 10F ambient enough to work comfortably when it was that cold outside so I added a portable propane cat heater until the temp was up, then the electric would keep it comfortable so long as I used a small fan to circulate the air.

My point in all this is that it is worth having insulation in the van. I dont have any experience with the optional factory insulation packages, but I can say applying the EZ-Cool has been worth the modest cost and couple days of work it required to install.
 

Top Bottom