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lindenengineering
03-12-2014, 04:06 PM
This applies to all 906/NCV3 Sprinters.
Check the flanged rubber seal at the turbo inlet. I am seeing the flanged edge parting company with body of the sleeve doing damage to the turbo impellor.
The fragments are being ingested into the turbo causing loss of boost and impellor damage.

The first sign is a limp mode and CEL.
The code is P150200 turbo boost drift.

I have one today that has chewed up the impellor rendering it scrap. I bet bits have gone "walkies" throught the whole intake/charge cooler, its a rip out & check!
Turbo is $2162 reason enough to check!

Part number of a new compensating ring A 000 094 00 51--get one just in case.
Dennis

Old Crows
03-12-2014, 04:14 PM
By "906" you mean post 2007 NCV3 Sprinters?

Do the later models have the up graded compensating ring?

lindenengineering
03-12-2014, 04:29 PM
Yes
All V6 models 2007 to present
Dennis

jdcaples
03-12-2014, 04:40 PM
You mean this?

My experience:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148967&postcount=22

The thread

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12669

Owners won't find it if they don't take the air cleaner off.... like if they don't do their own air and fuel filter changes.

-Jon

lindenengineering
03-12-2014, 05:58 PM
Jon
Yes except this time its the flange that lets go, not tearing of the sleeve section.

The later sleeve is made of neoprene (BUNA) not silicon rubber but seems to go hard and tear.
Again reason to check for a problem before it gets expensive.
Cheers Dennis

72chevy4x4
03-12-2014, 09:33 PM
if chunks get ingested into the impeller and passed through the exducer, might they land in the hoses/intercooler necessitating removal of the IC for cleaning or possibly inspection and cleaning?

Daybreak Express
03-13-2014, 12:21 AM
Is this something I can check for without voiding the warranty? (my van is due mid-to-late April). How far into its life mileage-wise does this start to happen? Am I correct in assuming that MB is either not aware of or not concerned about this problem?

lindenengineering
03-13-2014, 03:20 AM
I don't think they are concerned.
I have this 2011 "906 2500" with 58K on the clock and a failed turbo.
According to the dealer the warranty ran out at 36K so an expensive failure.

Ostensibly the inlet snake pipe duct running from the MAF sensor to the turbo inlet can be easily slipped loose in service and during an air filter replacement. Care needs to be taken when installing or disturbing the inlet tube

To be honest the arrangement with this stepper rubber bush is very amateur. I do this when building a prototype like a 300 TD into a Series Landrover then make a alum sleeve with O rings. As I said to the lady MB service writer (local dealer ) I called today If I didn't know better this is very Mopar!:rolleyes:

Certainly in my former life as a zone rep this would have been subject for an Advance Servicing Bulletin & Problem Report for issuance at the next factory engineering meeting. But I don't think anyone does this anymore in the industry unless a class action law suit is about to take place.
Dennis

Daybreak Express
03-13-2014, 10:37 AM
This reinforces my decision to buy the MB extended warranty. I plan to make an appointment with my dealer's Sprinter service man and bring this up with him, and again when I come in for its first service. Would I void the warranty if I check for this myself?

Old Crows
03-13-2014, 12:46 PM
Maybe it's time for a reporting to NTSB. This directly affects drivability and may leave a drives stranded or in a dangerous situation, or not.

lindenengineering
03-13-2014, 12:59 PM
This reinforces my decision to buy the MB extended warranty. I plan to make an appointment with my dealer's Sprinter service man and bring this up with him, and again when I come in for its first service. Would I void the warranty if I check for this myself?

I would have then check it AND have it recorded on a J/C---Then if it fails with catastrophic results you can point the finger at them.
Dennis

RT.SS
03-13-2014, 03:37 PM
This applies to all 906/NCV3 Sprinters.
Check the flanged rubber seal at the turbo inlet. I am seeing the flanged edge parting company with body of the sleeve doing damage to the turbo impellor.
The fragments are being ingested into the turbo causing loss of boost and impellor damage.



Hi Dennis, are you referring to the orange seal ring shown below? I noticed that you have a different part number, or it is a new/improved seal? I do carry a spare as some MB dealer don't stock them.
http://s28.postimg.org/e6leghm7x/Seal_Ring.jpg

http://s27.postimg.org/6pbd9fg0z/Ring_Seal_2.jpg

Daybreak Express
03-13-2014, 07:22 PM
I would have then check it AND have it recorded on a J/C---Then if it fails with catastrophic results you can point the finger at them.
Dennis

Pardon my ignorance-what's a J/C?:idunno:

lindenengineering
03-13-2014, 08:10 PM
RT.SS
Basically I am refering to the same thing, except you have the older version in silicon rubber.
Being not very tear resistant the sheeth tends to split.

The later one in BUNA neoprene is much more resistant to tearing but goes hard and the flange end stop on the bush tears and gets ingested into the turbo impellor.

I have provided later part number in the opening post but I would be erring on using the silicon rubber bush when it was fitted on Dodge vehicles which you have as a spare.

Hope that helps
Dennis

RT.SS
03-13-2014, 11:32 PM
RT.SS
Basically I am refering to the same thing, except you have the older version in silicon rubber.
Being not very tear resistant the sheeth tends to split.

The later one in BUNA neoprene is much more resistant to tearing but goes hard and the flange end stop on the bush tears and gets ingested into the turbo impellor.

I have provided later part number in the opening post but I would be erring on using the silicon rubber bush when it was fitted on Dodge vehicles which you have as a spare.

Hope that helps
Dennis

My 2010 Sprinter came with same orange seal ring (as pictured). I would imagine the later seal is black in color. Is the new and older seal interchangeable? Or do you have to replace the plastic air intake hose as well? Do you recommend changing it to the new seal?

The sound of the rubber seal breaking up and being sucked into the turbo is worst than the older seal splitting, at least when it split it can be easily detected as the air intake hose starts to feel loose from the turbo intake…just a thought.

Sorry for asking so many questions. Thank you.

Mrdi
03-14-2014, 04:27 PM
A picture of the area where this seal is located would be helpful when I request service at the dealer.
The writers often are in a fog regarding the Sprinters.
The new part is MB, A 000 094 00 51 ?
Correct?
This part will fit 2007 and beyond?

Kid347
03-15-2014, 11:07 PM
I thought the warranty covered the engine and drive train up to 100k miles?

Mrdi
03-16-2014, 12:06 AM
I thought the warranty covered the engine and drive train up to 100k miles?

5 years or 100k
Is that gasket a part of the engine or emissions system?

lindenengineering
03-16-2014, 04:09 PM
To explain further :-
The part in question is an adapter ring which seals the inlet hose coming out of the air cleaner and attached to the turbo inlet throat. The adapter ring in question is located on the turbo throat end.

The one I mentioned is BLACK in color and upon observation I believe is neoprene, having been superseded from the red silicon style adapter used on earlier applications.
Jon has posted earlier in this thread of that particular piece.

Having discussed this issue with one local dealer they deem it to be outside the warranty coverage sphere, hence the reason why I posted this observation as an urgent reason to conduct an over check, either as a DIY or servicing center activity.

I consider it part of the engine not emission system.

I personally consider this to be a very poorly executed build condition which is prone to insecurity and misplacement often exacerbated by routine filter service/changing and the disturbance of the hose which is made of a semi hard plastic extrusion. By its very concept prone to insecurity and detachment.
Dennis
Dennis

Aqua Puttana
03-16-2014, 04:13 PM
To explain further :-
... prone to insecurity and detachment.
Dennis
Dennis
:hmmm:

Sounds like my youngest sister off her meds...

Sorry. Back to topic.

Dennis
Dennis,
Thanks for the heads up. Good info. :thumbup:

Edit: Question.
Will this failure cause the lack of throttle response I've seen mentioned in some NCV3 threads? vic

lindenengineering
03-16-2014, 05:05 PM
:hmmm:

Sounds like my youngest sister off her meds...

Sorry. Back to topic.

Dennis
Dennis,
Thanks for the heads up. Good info. :thumbup:

Edit: Question.
Will this failure cause the lack of throttle response I've seen mentioned in some NCV3 threads? vic

Vic
Yes indeed!
The rig gets progressively unresponsive as a leak occurs between air cleaner mouted MAF sensor and turbo connection. Throws up a MAF code then turbo pressure drift fault.
Cheers & best regards
Dennis

jdcaples
03-20-2014, 05:16 PM
A picture of the area where this seal is located would be helpful when I request service at the dealer.
<snip>
This part will fit 2007 and beyond?

Yes, this part will fit 2007-2009 US/Canadian Sprinters with the OM642.993 engine.

Here is a picture of the location.



58572


-Jon

RT.SS
03-21-2014, 05:24 PM
Yes, this part will fit 2007-2009 US/Canadian Sprinters with the OM642.993 engine.

Here is a picture of the location.



58572


-Jon
Hi Jon, if the "new" seal which is made of black neoprene only fits 2007-2009 sprinters, then it is not the new seal design after all? My 2010 sprinter uses the red silicone seal with a different part number than the one posted by Dennis. Now, that just confused me, so MB went back silicone seals? Thanks.

jdcaples
03-21-2014, 08:49 PM
Hi Jon, if the "new" seal which is made of black neoprene only fits 2007-2009 sprinters, then it is not the new seal design after all? My 2010 sprinter uses the red silicone seal with a different part number than the one posted by Dennis. Now, that just confused me, so MB went back silicone seals? Thanks.

It probably fits your 2010, as long as it's a US/Canadian V6 diesel engine.


The family of engine is Mercedes-Benz OM642. There are two dozen OM642 variants around the globe and at least two in the US and Canada that might be found in a 2007+ Sprinter.

Mine is an OM642.993.

Yours is an OM642.898. Yours uses diesel exhaust fluid to reduce NOx emissions. I doubt that's the only difference.

I don't know that you and I use the same turbo charger - we probably do, but I don't know for a fact - so I specified what I know.

I can't get into EPC (https://epc.startekinfo.com) right now to check. I'm on a computer with IE11 and Java-too-new-for-MB.

-Jon

flman
03-21-2014, 10:29 PM
Maybe it's time for a reporting to NTSB. This directly affects drivability and may leave a drives stranded or in a dangerous situation, or not.

No! Please! Lets keep the govt out and take care of our own problems, or we can pay another couple grand on the next purchase to pay for this, after all, do you think they really eat it?

Sprinter SS
03-22-2014, 12:09 AM
I have a red/orange colored seal on my 2012. On my wifes GL350 with OM642 (2011), it had a black seal and it had a recall in 2012 for the orange/red one that is definately silicone material. In looking at them it appears to have a bit wider clamping surface with additional lines on the part that clamps to the turbo inlet (maybe to grab better).

Tuck5000
03-22-2014, 12:51 AM
So, I m confused now...which is the best replacement part #?
A 000 094 00 51 ( Black one)
or
# 017-997-04-45 ( Orange One)

Sprinter SS
03-22-2014, 03:45 AM
Tuck, to my knowledge the orange one is the new one. If you go to order it the EPC net system should default to the newest PN.

RT.SS
03-22-2014, 06:23 AM
This turbo seal is really prone to failure. Mine has failed once, I was lucky that I caught it early during a rest stop on our long road trip, I can only imagine the damage once the seal gets sucked into the turbo charger.

The silicone seal is prone to splitting right at the center where the hose clamp rest, over torqueing of the clamp probably contributed to the failure not to mention the vibration and the extreme heat generated by the turbocharger. When I removed the seal for inspection right after a long drive, the seal itself was hot enough that it can literally burn your fingers when handled with bare hands.

Once the seal splits in halves, the clamp loses its grip and the plastic air intake hose will slowly slips off the turbocharger inlet throat, once it get into that point…the seal could possibly get sucked into the turbo charger causing damage.

During road trips, I made it a habit now of regularly checking the air intake hose for looseness at the turbo inlet.

jdcaples
03-22-2014, 01:57 PM
Tuck, to my knowledge the orange one is the new one. If you go to order it the EPC net system should default to the newest PN.


Mere mortals can't order parts directly by using EPC. Only authorized dealers can do that. Americans are allowed access to the system because of some "level-the-playing-field" law forcing the sharing of knowledge, but the law doesn't mean Americans can order direct, bypassing the dealership.

Canadians do not have the same rights, if I recall correctly.

-Jon

jdcaples
03-22-2014, 02:00 PM
This turbo seal is really prone to failure. Mine has failed once, I was lucky that I caught it early during a rest stop on our long road trip, I can only imagine the damage once the seal gets sucked into the turbo charger.

<snip>


Mine split, but held and held pretty well. I think the more likely detrimental result is that unfiltered air can go down the throat of the turbo charger if the seal is compromised.... unless someone failed to assure the seal was flush against the metal one could put it "partially on," and then, the hose could slip off entirely.

-Jon

flman
03-22-2014, 07:40 PM
So, I checked my 2010 today, I have the orange rubber ring, I noticed the intake tube was not on all the way, so I removed and and found no cracks and all looked well, put the tube back on and tightened the clamp with out over tightening and it passed inspection I guess? My van has had flat spots in acceleration since new, so I will see if this helps. It looks like Dennis said nothing short of a crappy rig job, they just used a rubber ring in place of duct tape.

I guess it will be part of my 10K oil and fuel filter change as well. :thumbup:

RT.SS
03-23-2014, 04:55 PM
Mine split, but held and held pretty well. I think the more likely detrimental result is that unfiltered air can go down the throat of the turbo charger if the seal is compromised.... unless someone failed to assure the seal was flush against the metal one could put it "partially on," and then, the hose could slip off entirely.

-Jon

My air intake hose had completely slipped off from the turbo charger throat when the seal broke.

Just from my own observation, the hose could come off completely from the turbo inlet throat if the seal is compromised and not detected for a period of time. As the seal develops a split along the clamp line, the pressure from the clamp could start the split to slowly progress and widen overtime creating a void where the clamp sits and eventually losses its grip. The process could be exacerbated as air intrusion around the seal develops and turbo charger oil starts to migrate around the seal providing a slippery medium…not a scientific observation, but I think that’s exactly what happened on mine.

jdcaples
03-24-2014, 03:45 PM
My air intake hose had completely slipped off from the turbo charger throat when the seal broke.

Just from my own observation, the hose could come off completely from the turbo inlet throat if the seal is compromised and not detected for a period of time. As the seal develops a split along the clamp line, the pressure from the clamp could start the split to slowly progress and widen overtime creating a void where the clamp sits and eventually losses its grip. The process could be exacerbated as air intrusion around the seal develops and turbo charger oil starts to migrate around the seal providing a slippery medium…not a scientific observation, but I think that’s exactly what happened on mine.

Do you think the weight of the vehicle - the amount of work the engine has to do to motivate the chassis - has any impact on this?

The reason I ask is that you're talking about an RV. Mine is a lightly loaded cargo van.

-Jon

RT.SS
03-24-2014, 10:06 PM
Do you think the weight of the vehicle - the amount of work the engine has to do to motivate the chassis - has any impact on this?

The reason I ask is that you're talking about an RV. Mine is a lightly loaded cargo van.

-Jon

Quite possibly, yes…I also drive the RV loaded for long hours, sometimes as long as 12 hours straight with few minutes restroom breaks in-between…so I think that makes an impact as the engine/turbo charger works harder and for extended periods.

vertigo
03-25-2014, 01:37 AM
Mine suffered benign failure, with only intake leakage resulting in intermittent turbo boost shutoff. The original seal showed no visible signs of failure, but the 2623 DTC code and turbo shutdown episodes which resolved on replacement made it obvious that the part was not servicable.

http://europarts-sd.com/item.asp?cID=114&PID=1952

RT.SS
03-25-2014, 03:44 AM
Mine suffered benign failure, with only intake leakage resulting in intermittent turbo boost shutoff. The original seal showed no visible signs of failure, but the 2623 DTC code and turbo shutdown episodes which resolved on replacement made it obvious that the part was not servicable.

http://europarts-sd.com/item.asp?cID=114&PID=1952

$20 at europarts? check MB dealer as I got mine for $10 + tax. Also, the one at Europarts looks different than the one I got at the dealer, it has lines/rings around the seal not smooth as pictured on the link.

Daybreak Express
03-25-2014, 05:54 AM
I have a new '14 Crew (with the V-6) on the way-is this something I will need to be concerned about, or has this issue been addressed by MB?

jdcaples
03-25-2014, 02:42 PM
I have a new '14 Crew (with the V-6) on the way-is this something I will need to be concerned about, or has this issue been addressed by MB?

Considering the number of part revisions in the last 7 years - more than three for the alternator to jump start post & battery cable, for instance - there's a chance you'll be impacted by this situation.

The best advice I can offer is to not borrow trouble from the future. If you obsess over all the things that might go wrong - not guaranteed to go wrong, but MIGHT go wrong - you'll spend more time and money being defensive than you would if you'd just let things happen or not happen.

Certainly there are potential failure conditions that warrant defensive actions, but I don't know that this is one of them.

-Jon

PS: this is just my opinion. You should to do what you feel is necessary to manage your risks and rewards.

Aqua Puttana
03-25-2014, 03:14 PM
Mine suffered benign failure, with only intake leakage resulting in intermittent turbo boost shutoff. The original seal showed no visible signs of failure, but the 2623 DTC code and turbo shutdown episodes which resolved on replacement made it obvious that the part was not servicable.

http://europarts-sd.com/item.asp?cID=114&PID=1952
A bit more detail that Vertigo provided as feedback to the forum for his problem(s).

That last sentence in particular deserves repeating, with emphasis: Don't Ignore Anything!

At long last, my many months of turbo boost LHM issues appears to finally be resolved. And the magic part-change was... the turbo inlet seal! Replacing the EGR didn't do it; replacing the broken crankcase vent assembly didn't do it; changing the intercooler hoses didn't do it; adding the Riordan hose end didn't do it; fiddling with the DPF didn't do it; cleaning the MAF sensor didn't do it; and replacing the dead IAT sensor didn't do it (though fixing that did allow us to get better scan data). It looks like that lowly, and seemingly fine turbo inlet seal was the culprit that was causing the ECU to shut off boost at high load conditions.

If I were starting from scratch right now, I'd simply replace that seal at the first sign of turbo boost cut-out. It's cheap, easy to get at, and there's no dependable way that I can think of to test it's integrity.

Now I'll drive the van for a few days (watching boost, load and exhaust temp numbers on my android phone app hooked to an ELM327 OBD Bluetooth adapter), and then take it back to my local tech for another checkup on his factory-level scanner. Once that confirms the issue resolved, I'll plan to post a write-up on the symptoms, diagnostics and remedies that worked for me.

The lesson I take from this so far: When chasing intermittent turbo boost cut-out problems, don't ignore anything - both on the pressure side, and the suction side of the turbo. That inscrutable MB computer will be brutally unforgiving of the slightest leaks in the intake tract.

Postscript: It appears that the Riordan hose-end replacement was not a factor in this case. Just to resolve the lingering question in my mind whether the lip seal on that hose end is sufficiently pressure-tight, I'll try a new factory hose when it arrives, and then check to see if my max boost readings go any higher.

As always, clicking on the blue arrow icon within any quote box will take you to the original thread.

vic

Daybreak Express
03-25-2014, 04:45 PM
Considering the number of part revisions in the last 7 years - more than three for the alternator to jump start post & battery cable, for instance - there's a chance you'll be impacted by this situation.

The best advice I can offer is to not borrow trouble from the future. If you obsess over all the things that might go wrong - not guaranteed to go wrong, but MIGHT go wrong - you'll spend more time and money being defensive than you would if you'd just let things happen or not happen.

Certainly there are potential failure conditions that warrant defensive actions, but I don't know that this is one of them.

-Jon

PS: this is just my opinion. You should to do what you feel is necessary to manage your risks and rewards.

I agree it's best not to be too obsessive over what might happen-that would seriously interfere with the pleasure of driving my new van. However, it's good to be "tuned in" in case symptoms start showing up-I'd rather be ready to deal with this particular issue when it's still a boost leak, before damage to the turbo occurs. (Here's where I imagine a ScanGuage or equivalent can be very useful). Since I'm buying the extended warranty, it will be quite a while before such an issue, should it arise, becomes more than an inconvenience. As always, thanks to all for sharing their experiences and knowledge (and taking the time to reply)!

flman
03-25-2014, 06:09 PM
I agree it's best not to be too obsessive over what might happen-that would seriously interfere with the pleasure of driving my new van. However, it's good to be "tuned in" in case symptoms start showing up-I'd rather be ready to deal with this particular issue when it's still a boost leak, before damage to the turbo occurs. (Here's where I imagine a ScanGuage or equivalent can be very useful). Since I'm buying the extended warranty, it will be quite a while before such an issue, should it arise, becomes more than an inconvenience. As always, thanks to all for sharing their experiences and knowledge (and taking the time to reply)!

The actual boost would not be affected by a leak at the intake connection, unless the MAF were to some how lower the boost. The boost takes place on the outlet of the turbo, not the inlet.

vertigo
03-25-2014, 07:06 PM
The actual boost would not be affected by a leak at the intake connection, unless the MAF were to some how lower the boost. The boost takes place on the outlet of the turbo, not the inlet.

I would like to agree with your hypothesis, and indeed did until recently hold the very same view, until my experience yesterday proved the opposite. It appears that although the turbo does not care from what pathways it receives inlet air, the ECU very much cares and will shut off or limit the available boost via the actuator if it senses intake air unaccounted for by the MAF sensor. In my case, that unaccounted source was a leaking turbo inlet seal.

vertigo
03-25-2014, 07:11 PM
$20 at europarts? check MB dealer as I got mine for $10 + tax. Also, the one at Europarts looks different than the one I got at the dealer, it has lines/rings around the seal not smooth as pictured on the link.

The consistent speed of delivery that I've received from Europarts more than makes up for the small price premium in this instance. The nearest MB dealer is 3 hour round trip with an expensive ferry ride.

And yes, the part is different from the original seal... it's noticeably fatter and seals tighter.

Aqua Puttana
03-25-2014, 07:55 PM
The actual boost would not be affected by a leak at the intake connection, unless the MAF were to some how lower the boost. The boost takes place on the outlet of the turbo, not the inlet.

I would like to agree with your hypothesis, and indeed did until recently hold the very same view, until my experience yesterday proved the opposite. It appears that although the turbo does not care from what pathways it receives inlet air, the ECU very much cares and will shut off or limit the available boost via the actuator if it senses intake air unaccounted for by the MAF sensor. In my case, that unaccounted source was a leaking turbo inlet seal.
MAF DTC's should be more correctly referred to as Air Mass. Using MAF seems to trigger people to immediately suspect or relate the term to the MAF sensor proper.

The MAF sensor is but one of many inputs which the computer uses to calculate and verify that the expected air mass is being fed to the engine under a given operating condition. So yes, a leak on the upstream side of the turbo can be noticed by the ECM and it will then set LHM with setting most relevant corresponding DTC which it has available in memory.

My bad O2 sensor was setting Air Mass DTC's, as can other sensor problems. On the NCV3 Sprinter the hose being off the air box before the turbo inlet can trigger a no throttle response. These can be sensitive beasts.

:2cents: vic

flman
03-25-2014, 09:33 PM
MAF DTC's should be more correctly referred to as Air Mass. Using MAF seems to trigger people to immediately suspect or relate the term to the MAF sensor proper.

The MAF sensor is but one of many inputs which the computer uses to calculate and verify that the expected air mass is being fed to the engine under a given operating condition. So yes, a leak on the upstream side of the turbo can be noticed by the ECM and it will then set LHM with setting most relevant corresponding DTC which it has available in memory.

My bad O2 sensor was setting Air Mass DTC's, as can other sensor problems. On the NCV3 Sprinter the hose being off the air box before the turbo inlet can trigger a no throttle response. These can be sensitive beasts.

:2cents: vic

So not an actual boost leak, but the computer shutting down the boost like it does for many LHM problems?

vertigo
03-25-2014, 10:25 PM
So not an actual boost leak, but the computer shutting down the boost like it does for many LHM problems?

Yes, the computer apparently disables the boost for any number of reasons. In my case, because of a leak on the suction side of the turbo, at the turbo inlet seal.

Graphite Dave
03-26-2014, 12:35 AM
MAF DTC's should be more correctly referred to as Air Mass. Using MAF seems to trigger people to immediately suspect or relate the term to the MAF sensor proper.

The MAF sensor is but one of many inputs which the computer uses to calculate and verify that the expected air mass is being fed to the engine under a given operating condition. So yes, a leak on the upstream side of the turbo can be noticed by the ECM and it will then set LHM with setting most relevant corresponding DTC which it has available in memory.

My bad O2 sensor was setting Air Mass DTC's, as can other sensor problems. On the NCV3 Sprinter the hose being off the air box before the turbo inlet can trigger a no throttle response. These can be sensitive beasts.

:2cents: vic

I had a fuel filter change on my 08 NCV3 done by a local non-Mercedes shop. They did not tighten the clamp between the air cleaner and the turbo inlet hose. 1 hour into a trip the van lost power but ran with less and less power until I reach my destination. No dash lights. Next morning it would start fine but would not run over about 5 mph. Short spurts of power and then back to 5 mph. Had a delivery to make so rented a pick-up with hitch for my trailer and called the tow truck. Van towed to nearest dealer. Had to catch a train the next week to pick up van. Only problem was a loose clamp that I could have fixed in 5 minutes if I had any idea where to look. Computers suck!

jdcaples
03-26-2014, 01:39 AM
<snip>
Computers suck!

The two truest words I've read in a long time. I'm surprised humans were able to launch and land the shuttle fleet in the 1980s w/o


Cippen: Houston, this is Endeavor. We have "Error Reading Drive C:" and are requesting guidance. Young is pulling out his hair.
Mission Control: Endeavor, this is Houston. Insert floppy disk labeled "Bare Metal."
Cippen: Negative Houston. Young just bit into the floppy disk and is chewing on it while making funny faces.


-Jon

Graphite Dave
03-26-2014, 02:06 AM
The two truest words I've read in a long time. I'm surprised humans were able to launch and land the shuttle fleet in the 1980s w/o



-Jon

I had to laugh the other day. We have an old large 1932 Webster's dictionary on an antique stand. I was looking up a word and came across a vehicle electrical drawing illustration. It was all of 2" x 3" and was very clear how the engine electrical operated. Even I used to be able to troubleshoot a car that would not start. Now you need a computer to read a computer and it is still a crap shoot of what is wrong. Amazing the progress we have made with modern technology!

PS: Old folks still use a dictionary.

avanti
03-26-2014, 03:09 AM
All true. OTOH, we are all driving around getting 20mpg on a 4 or 5 ton vehicle, go 15000 miles between service intervals which involve little more than oil changes, and get gently reminded when we drift out of our lane.

Part of the reason we were all so good at fixing those old cars was that we got so much practice doing it.

Graphite Dave
03-26-2014, 03:05 PM
I also am old and still drive. No cell phone use, no fancy music, no navigation etc. When you concentrate on driving why would you ever need lane warnings? Besides lane warnings would just distract me when I select the apex on a curve. I would wear out the lane warning.

I can even decide when to turn on the lights and wipers. Amazing what can be handled by the human behind the wheel. I even bought manual roll up windows on my last pickup. Never wore out my arm muscles rolling up a window. Don't even need my keys to roll them up or down. Magic. If Mercedes imported the 6 speed manual transmission that is what I would have. It is much more enjoyable for me to just drive. If you want to sit in your easy chair and have someone automatically select your shows, that is your choice. Different strokes for different folks.

jdcaples
03-26-2014, 03:20 PM
<snip>
Part of the reason we were all so good at fixing those old cars was that we got so much practice doing it.

... and the biggest part of the reason we were all so good at fixing old cars: Automobile manufacturers gave us the choice between service by a dealership, service by the mechanic at the gas station, or service by ourselves.

The golden age of leisure is not for sale; it's for rent.

-Jon

silverstar84
01-05-2015, 04:24 PM
This is the only post I can find in relation to the code "P150200", current & Stored.
I have checked the orange seal, it is the new version and is in good shape.
No harm in putting a new one in...but I am curious about one item.
The code will not clear. I can pull codes, print, clear and run test again and this same code is a hard code, it is there even without starting the engine.
using Autologic computer.
Working on a 2010, 906.635 with 642.898

The only other hard code the AdBlue heating element code, P20BE1B-000, which I am learning about that but I have not found any connection with the heating element and the "intake air system/charge air - offset drift under engine load 2.

Am I miss reading or missing something here in this post?
Any help welcome.
Michael

jmgasior
01-05-2015, 05:19 PM
Ok Dave,I to,looking at the transit,kidding what did you get for options??

sailquik
01-05-2015, 05:38 PM
silverstar84/Michael,
Take it to an authorized Sprinter dealer and have it diagnosed with the MB SDS diagnostics system.
Then you will know what the real codes are and what the suggested fixes are for each of them.
Your Autologic computer diagnostic system is not "Sprinter Specific" enough to provide all the
codes and subcodes and probably cannot interrogate/exercise all the systems to find the real
issues.
Roger

lindenengineering
01-05-2015, 07:58 PM
silverstar84/Michael,
Take it to an authorized Sprinter dealer and have it diagnosed with the MB SDS diagnostics system.
Then you will know what the real codes are and what the suggested fixes are for each of them.
Your Autologic computer diagnostic system is not "Sprinter Specific" enough to provide all the
codes and subcodes and probably cannot interrogate/exercise all the systems to find the real
issues.Roger

Roger
The Autologic machine is every bit as good as the factory unit and we use it every day with great success. It provides dealser level service at the Independent shop like mine.
If there is one fault and that is the ability to do key encodes because we need the bounce codes from MB who won't release them.
Autologic provide great product support if you keep up to date with the subcription and of course the program updates which cover the factory updates on all the MB models.
Dennis

djsincla
01-05-2015, 08:05 PM
Certainly there are potential failure conditions that warrant defensive actions, but I don't know that this is one of them.

-Jon

PS: this is just my opinion. You should to do what you feel is necessary to manage your risks and rewards.

I would add that some of these items just should be replaced at regular service intervals. For the cost of the part, I plan to replace this regularly. At the very lest it needs inspection.

silverstar84
01-05-2015, 08:38 PM
Well I like the activity, JMGASIOR calls me Dave, Roger gives me a scare about AutoLogic and Dennis kind of brought me back to where I started.
That was fun guys, lets do it again!
Just Kidding!!
The code reads, "Intake air system/Charge air system- Offset drift under engine load 2"
I don't understand how this code, if caused by a charge circuit seal, can be hard coded and not erase?
I followed some of the posted links but all I saw was talk about the different compounds the orange seal is made of, mostly.
If this has been covered somewhere else please guide me.
Forgive me, I just realized I failed to mention there is no acceleration power.
It is so weak I'm not sure if it is in a limp home mode or just running without turbo.

Graphite Dave
01-05-2015, 09:15 PM
Ok Dave,I to,looking at the transit,kidding what did you get for options??

High roof
Ecoboost V6
3.31 limited slip rear ebd
9000# 250
trailer tow package
reverse park aid
rear camera
4 user defined switchs
Dual AGM batteries
HD alternator
Modified wiring
sliding door & rear windows
single CD radio to get the screen
cruise control
upfitter switch
black wheels
LED cargo lights
Privacy glass
rear 12v power point
2 additional keys
remote start
trailer brake controller
front map lights
charcoal black cloth seats
short arm heated mirrors

$39,600 plus tax and license.

sailquik
01-06-2015, 01:21 AM
silverstar84/Dennis,
Ok, I'll shut up.
There are so many "diagnostic tools" and so many "flavors/variations" (pro level/mid level/amateur level/backyard/shade tree level) I can't
keep up with them all.
I sure hope that the Autologic that silverstar 84 has is the same (and has the same interfaces/attachments/peripherals) as Dennis's.
That said, silverstar 84, does your Autologic not include a boost pressure sensor test that will interrogate the boost/MAP pressure sensor and
return a value so you can tell if the turbocharger is trying to make boost or if it has been shut down by the ECM?
Roger

lindenengineering
01-06-2015, 02:05 AM
Well I like the activity, JMGASIOR calls me Dave, Roger gives me a scare about AutoLogic and Dennis kind of brought me back to where I started.
That was fun guys, lets do it again!
Just Kidding!!
The code reads, "Intake air system/Charge air system- Offset drift under engine load 2"
I don't understand how this code, if caused by a charge circuit seal, can be hard coded and not erase?
I followed some of the posted links but all I saw was talk about the different compounds the orange seal is made of, mostly.
If this has been covered somewhere else please guide me.
Forgive me, I just realized I failed to mention there is no acceleration power.
It is so weak I'm not sure if it is in a limp home mode or just running without turbo.

First please read this which Carl posted as a condensed repair diagnosis activity.

This code : Code 2623 charge air system offset drift at idle . pertains directly to EGR actuation during any given situation and the amount of airflow drop across the MAF sensor. If the amount of drift (adaptation of throttle valve closure at any given point during EGR actuation as apposed to boost psi regulator % , swirl valve actuation %, EGR on/off ratio, Lambda value during EGR events, MAF drop during EGR event all add up to factoring "drift" for quantity mean adaption) is under or over a specified amount this code becomes current until the MAF sensor is re adapted along with Lambda values EGR adaption and quantity mean adaption.The hitch is that it takes 30 operating cycles (roughly 2500-3000k miles) before the code will set again (its an adaption thing) If you have no leaks in the Charge air system (no smoke testing will help you find it) check system with only pressure no greater then 15-20 PSI and listen with a mechanics stethoscope (probe removed). Then remove the EGR valve and using a bore-scope inspect the EGR cooler for over soot condition. Then inspect intake tract for over soot conditions, usually wet . Note that 75% of the times the EGR cooler is the main culprit of this code.

Cheers :
Carl


OK
Take note
Much of what you need to do is contained with this post. Its a good 'un!:thumbup:
However from my experience (and maybe its altitude related being here in Denver). We often find that the throttle body is the culprit and even sometimes the charge pressure sensor.
Now throttle body adaption is supposed to be automatic as you cycle the ignition key, but every so often it won't adapt. The Autologic has an adapt feature for the TBU but as with much that is experienced with MB products as they age, the wiring and communication within the modules tends to suffer. (Its not the best believe me!)
Remember most techs who work in dealerships get to work on the nice new stuff in optimum condition not ten year old "dogs" that have been kicked about the country like Pepsi can in Caracas!
This next step might seems strange to many, but even a created fault code(s) in some cases is enough to "jolt' the PCM to start learning. Hence if after every adaption and correction has taken place and there is no tangible response pull fuse #8 out of the fuse holder while the pig is running. This will cause the engine to stumble may be even stall. Refit the fuse and clear the codes. In about 60% of these incidences we have successfully cleared a hard drift code.

I am not sure why this is successful, but harking back to my old mate in the UK who works for MB UK, he tells me its the factory adaption of the original Euro 5/6 software to that giving US Fed compliance is the issue!
(Its a typical factory belt and braces approach he tells me!)

Try some of these solution's & remedies but if all else fails call Autoloigic Tech support and after doing a data log you can down load it to them for specific analysis. I have found them to be very helpful resolving some of the "wacko faults" these vans produce!

Now to the Autologic tool itself for those interested.
The tool is multi platform capable .
I have Landrover--all Models (except Euro diesel).
I have Mercedes Benz all platforms including cars
I have Rolls Royce! Some of the slightly older stuff and the latter Ghost/ Wraith/Phantom which of course is actually BMW V12 power plant/powerpack. The latter platforms I have mostly for my own car (Ghost 2) and select customers we provide service for. (sorry for the digress but I hope to show/demo to you the reader its versatility.

Specifically on the MB platforms when you select Mercedes Benz you get car model touch buttons and Commercial Vehicles

Obviously due to the nature of our business we select more Com Veh's and the screen then changes to 901/902 /903 /904 prompts plus Vito and then 906 Sprinter.
By selecting each platform you get worldwide coverage as long as the comms cable has an OBD2 connector.
It is a very useful tool as I have even carried it to Costa Rica and scanned not only Sprinters but Landrovers as well. Haven't tried a Roller there yet!:laughing:

Hope that helps & best of luck
Dennis

silverstar84
01-08-2015, 07:03 PM
Well Sailquick, I understand the aggregation created when folks ask questions looking for a quick fix answer and not doing much legwork themselves.
I don’t mean to be that guy.
I have been studying this truck quite a bit.
I have found several tests that I can do in order to eliminate problem or problems.
In general I am finding diagnostics in the Sprinter Xentry. Very helpful.

I do have a question.
Somewhere here on the forum someone showed their home make test tool for charge air circuit.
A hose that fits on the face of turbo and the other end capped with a Schrader valve and gauge which allows you to apply 15 to 20psi to charge air circuit.
This seems like a good test. Once I thought it thru to the intake for the engine, even if an intake valve is open, you would not have an exhaust valve open at the same time.
However, the first Sprinter I tried it on is this same problem child Sprinter.
With key off all the air is going out the tail pipe, no pressure will build up.
It would seem to me the EGR would be the only possible cause.
I have removed EGR and it is powdery clean, not gooey or sludge like at all. I was able to activate it via the autologic tool and moves freely.
Would someone set me straight that I am doing the test correctly or tell me how all the air is going out the tail pipe IF it is not the EGR.
Thanks in advance.

MichiganView
01-26-2016, 04:59 PM
Is this something I can check for without voiding the warranty? (my van is due mid-to-late April). How far into its life mileage-wise does this start to happen? Am I correct in assuming that MB is either not aware of or not concerned about this problem?

Don't wait! When I discovered MB was covering up this issue - I 'requested' (with a serious tone) they check AND replace mmy turbo seal if it was orange. They did it without questioning me, but expressed how puzzled they were that I was aware of the issue and part change. I told them 'I do my research'. They showed me the old orange seal, which was had not yet started to crack - and replaced it with the new black seal - no cost! Hold them responsible for producing defective parts and not telling owners before $3,000 in new turbo is required!

Bill Robison

MichiganView
01-26-2016, 05:31 PM
I agree it's best not to be too obsessive over what might happen-that would seriously interfere with the pleasure of driving my new van. However, it's good to be "tuned in" in case symptoms start showing up-I'd rather be ready to deal with this particular issue when it's still a boost leak, before damage to the turbo occurs. (Here's where I imagine a ScanGuage or equivalent can be very useful). Since I'm buying the extended warranty, it will be quite a while before such an issue, should it arise, becomes more than an inconvenience. As always, thanks to all for sharing their experiences and knowledge (and taking the time to reply)!

I agree with most things posted on here - still lots to learn ;-) I do however disagree with the statement regarding being 'obsessive over what might happen'. Especially, regarding the focus of this discussion - old vs new turbo seal. The factory seal is defective - can crack - can leak and can damage the turbo vanes! I think it prudent to proactively spend $10 to avert spending up to $3,000 to have the turbo replaced. That seems to be a more than fair 'risk vs return' - maybe it's just me? Thanks to Dennis for breaching the topic!

sleeper bird
01-26-2016, 11:33 PM
Dennis prompted me to order a new seal,upon reading this post,that i changed a few months ago and the old seal was sort of brittle not nearly as pliable as the new seal which was black Thanks from me as well.You have probably saved me many thousands of dollars since i have owned my 08 with the many small things that it needed or needed to get a jump on before it jumps me. and am still learning every day.

smiller
01-26-2016, 11:49 PM
Europarts notes:

Turbocharger Seal Ring 2010-2016
Located at the compressor side (aluminum section) on the intake end of the turbocharger.
Resides inside the large diameter plastic hose/pipe (642 528 22 24)shown below.
This unit is black in color. The seal used for 2007-2009 models is reddish-orange in color.


and...


Turbocharger Seal Ring 2007-2009
Located at the compressor side (aluminum section) on the intake end of the turbocharger.
Resides inside the large diameter plastic hose/pipe (642 528 02 24)shown below.
This unit is reddish-orange in color. The same unit for 2010 and later units is black in color.


They seem to be saying pretty clearly that the new black seal is only for 2010-2016?

jackfish
01-26-2016, 11:55 PM
So how does one get the MB dealer to check this during an A or B service? What exactly does one ask for?

MichiganView
01-27-2016, 03:44 AM
So how does one get the MB dealer to check this during an A or B service? What exactly does one ask for?

Refer to my earlier posting today - you let them know you are aware that MB has had known issues with the factory turbo seal fragmenting - then, had it redesigned without informing owners. Use your 'get 'er done' tone of voice to let them know 1) you expect them to check it at no cost 3) if it has the factory seal you expect them to replace it with the newer design and newer 'rubber' compound - at no cost. If they refuse to do any of it REQUIRE them to print it on your service sheet and let them know, if you have a turbo breakdown related to that seal they will be liable for total cost of all repairs. Just be a proactive owner - MB continues to get richer each day by covering up things we SHOULD know as owners - that is so wrong in so many ways. You don't have to be nasty - just let them know you are not there for a bagel and coffee... (After all it should require no more than 10 minutes and $10 for MB to replace it)

sleeper bird
01-27-2016, 10:06 AM
Europarts notes:

Turbocharger Seal Ring 2010-2016
Located at the compressor side (aluminum section) on the intake end of the turbocharger.
Resides inside the large diameter plastic hose/pipe (642 528 22 24)shown below.
This unit is black in color. The seal used for 2007-2009 models is reddish-orange in color.


and...


Turbocharger Seal Ring 2007-2009
Located at the compressor side (aluminum section) on the intake end of the turbocharger.
Resides inside the large diameter plastic hose/pipe (642 528 02 24)shown below.
This unit is reddish-orange in color. The same unit for 2010 and later units is black in color.


They seem to be saying pretty clearly that the new black seal is only for 2010-2016?


i would not say that i ordered one from my local mb dealer by my vin and it was definitely black.I have an 08

68protour
01-27-2016, 12:19 PM
Would you please suggest and time/mile replacement interval for this part. My concern with "checking" mine is that by taking things apart to check and then putting back together do I run the risk of damaging this seal? I would rather check/replace at same time interval before it can get old.
Thanks

smiller
01-27-2016, 02:35 PM
i would not say that i ordered one from my local mb dealer by my vin and it was definitely black.I have an 08
That would make sense on one level, in that since (AFAIK) there is no difference in the turbo inlet or air pipe between 2007-2009 ad 2010-2016 then it follows that they would use the same part, but OTOH I doubt Europarts simply made up their parts application info. As usual, clear as mud.

Walter Clark
01-28-2016, 02:03 PM
I have read this thread several times trying to get my head around what is good and what is bad, and what the options are.

This is what I have gleaned. Please correct me if I am off.

The black (neoprene) ring is less likely to be damaged or torn when being installed than the orange (silicone rubber) ring, but the black one is prone to heat/age hardening which can lead to the "flanged edge" breaking off and getting sucked into the turbo impeller. I put flanged edge in quotes as that is Dennis' description of the feature that is the potential grenade.

Inspection simply involves removing the air intake up to the turbo and checking the ring for hardening or tears and replacing it if either is evident, or simply replacing it.

Installation should probably involve 2 things. Some compatible lubricant on the ring to reduce the chances of snagging and tearing it, whether the new one is neoprene or silicone. And care taken when installing it which includes not forcing anything to prevent tears and care taken to not push the inlet hose on too far, which could stress the "flanged edge" on the inside end and cause or accelerate tearing loose.

Is there any consensus which type should be preferred? My '12 has the neoprene.

MobileCC
01-28-2016, 06:18 PM
Sometimes you need to replace the Turbocharger Intake Hose duct assy because of over tightening the clamp,using wrong clamp or the clamp is not positioned on hose correctly which can damage it $130 at europarts

Walter Clark
02-07-2016, 05:28 PM
So, is there no consensus as to whether the silicone or the neoprene ring is the preferred part here?

CJPJ
02-07-2016, 05:42 PM
So, is there no consensus as to whether the silicone or the neoprene ring is the preferred part here? At 7.5 yrs and 60,000 mi., .. I'm still using the original silicone seal.
Silicone will never harden; but it can tear or rip if pulled on.

:2cents: