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napster
02-04-2014, 01:49 AM
Hi from lancashire england
http://www.napierindustrial.co.uk/20140202_123355.jpg
Ive been lurking through the forums for a couple of days browsed through loads of threads and decided to post my own after rifling through various threads all 3 pages + long

As ull see from the pic im trying to cure a leaking injector on a sprinter 311 cdi which had got so bad of a leak it no longer started.

Managed to clean up most of the carbon and identified the injector number 1 the one nearest. So now ive took off the top of the injector but the valve is still in place which im not sure how to get out? I realise this will have to come out to get the tool in

Im yet to order an injector removal tool but I get the feeling this one aint gonna budge so its currently soaked in lube.

Is there any way to remove it without buying a tool which im only gonna use once?

napster
02-04-2014, 12:30 PM
can anyone help me remove the top part of the injector where the valve sits in or provide another way to remove the injector?

napster
03-06-2014, 01:37 PM
HI this van is still sat in the workshop with the top half of the injector removed IE the head.

I still cant seem to find a way to remove the inner part of the injector to get the slide hammer / removal tool in.

Its basically the circular valve with 3 dots around it.

Would really appreciate if someone could help me out here.......

napster
03-06-2014, 01:41 PM
http://www.napierindustrial.co.uk/injector.gif

THIS is a close up of what im talking about.

Dingo
03-06-2014, 03:20 PM
Afternoon ,

A local HGV & diesel specialist use a travelling specialist who pulls injectors

Ring 01253763319 & speak to Mick , he should be able to give you the number

Hope this helps you

Steve
In Sunny St.Annes

napster
03-06-2014, 03:28 PM
Afternoon ,

A local HGV & diesel specialist use a travelling specialist who pulls injectors

Ring 01253763319 & speak to Mick , he should be able to give you the number

Hope this helps you

Steve
In Sunny St.Annes

hi thanks for the reply, is it that much of a difficult job?

Any ideas how much these guys charge, as ive cleaned up most of the carbon which took me hours it seems a shame to rope someone else in.

lindenengineering
03-06-2014, 03:50 PM
Yes I would second Steve (Dingo's) post.
Hazet makes a cup tool that screws onto those treads and you can then pull it out!

PROVIDING its not too stuck in there!
"cos if its solid it will tear the threads off!

Plan B if stuck fast its then has to be "African bush method --Bring Fire Mister!" ) and heat the injector body with a #5 tip on the oxy bottle kit. That usually is enough to get the crud/carbon fluid enough to shift it under pulling load.

If that not workee then its a spark erosion job!
Again I had one similar only the other month!
You don't need to go there unless absolutely necessary so lets hop the travelling "injector remover bloke is successful!

Oh and by the way don't believe Steve "Sunny St Ann's" --like Peeing Preston, rumour has it that Lancastrian are born with webbed feet!:lol:
Dennis

napster
03-06-2014, 03:57 PM
dear dennis thanks for the reply i will consider my options and look into the hazet tool mentioned.

I fear the injector removal man mite just tear the thing to bits but i guess there proabably experts at the job but i fear it as a risk as well as a financial burden on an already increasingly costly project.


---------------------
Wow i find it amazing how you are in US and are armed with local knowledge :cheers:

Im actually not far from peeing preston myself.

napster
03-06-2014, 04:04 PM
Hazet makes a cup tool that screws onto those treads and you can then pull it out!



Could you provide me with a link to this tool so i know what im looking for there seems to be a number of different products out there from a quick google search.

Dingo
03-06-2014, 04:34 PM
Oh and by the way don't believe Steve "Sunny St Ann's" --like Peeing Preston, rumour has it that Lancastrian are born with webbed feet!:lol:
Dennis[/QUOTE]

Cheeky bugger Dennis , it was sunny earlier . And there is an E on the end mate ! !

Napster , not sure of costs etc , that was why i gave you Mick's number . He told me about getting this guy to pull various injectors , using if i remember a hydraulic puller system , he has always been helpful in providing info .

Dieseltech do not actually have a website , they are too busy fixing things to bother about a web apge

lindenengineering
03-06-2014, 08:34 PM
Napster.
The Hazet cup tool adapter part number 4797-3 is the bit I was refering to and it also comes with a removal fork 4797-2.

If you check with a Hazet supplier it has a slide hammer as parts of the kit, although I use a 16mm set bolt and nut on a Snap on bridge puller bar to pull on it.

Of course you could get Steve to help you tow it up on top of Pendle Hill and get the witches up there to trick it out! There's good pub nearby where you can wet your whistle (Thwaites) and have a ploughmans lunch.

Steve notice I put the "E" in Thwaites lad!

For our American readers Lancashire can be a bit rainy and dull from time to time but its full of colourful characters which makes up for them dreary days.
Here's a famous Lancashire Ambassador:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=945T56ZxFkE
Cheers Dennis

Boater
03-06-2014, 10:11 PM
The guy who specializes in removing injectors is less likely to make a mess of it than anyone else, BUT note Dennis' caveat that sometimes you need to spark erode the remainder out - there is an element of luck when things are that messed up :(

napster
03-06-2014, 10:15 PM
Dear Dennis,
Done some googling on these hazet bits and ive come across both bits which i can order from germany.
4797-3 is not much of a problem and is quite cheap.
4797-3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAZET-4797-2-Impact-Extractor-Set-for-removing-common-rail-injectors-incl-claw-/231160006027?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item35d235c58b&vxp=mtr around $350

Now im just wondering will this remove the inside of the injector / valve IE: the picture i showed earlier or will it pop the injector straight out?

http://www.napierindustrial.co.uk/INJECTOR%202.gif

My original idea was to remove the inside of the injector and then try and use a conventional style injector puller kit like this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261142661999?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Im watching this video on youtube and the guy just pulls the bit out with a magnet!! 0:35 - 0:40. So forgive me for being a little confused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7GaLtbwCr8

-------------------
Well funny you should mention Thwaites, my sprinter is parked litterally down the road from the main brewery in blackburn lancashire. We can smell the ale being brewed in the mornings.:cheers:

lindenengineering
03-07-2014, 12:44 AM
Napster
That threaded cup will pull the whole injector out.

I could do with a pint of Thwaites and the last time I had one was the night before I came over here at the Cock & Bottle in Tarleton.
Just a memory now.
Cheers Dennis

napster
03-07-2014, 08:25 AM
Napster
That threaded cup will pull the whole injector out.

I could do with a pint of Thwaites and the last time I had one was the night before I came over here at the Cock & Bottle in Tarleton.
Just a memory now.
Cheers Dennis

Thanks im planning to update the thread accordingly as im sure theres loads of people with this problem as it has had litterlly hundreds of views.
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.thwaitespubs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Cock-Bottle.jpg

Had to look Tarleton up as im more towards Blackburn / ****heroe sides:

Tarleton is a village and civil parish situated in the Lancashire mosslands north east of Southport, and to the south west of Preston, in North West England. The village is known for farming due to its rich soil quality.

Boater
03-07-2014, 04:00 PM
The mosses are lethal! Unfenced single track roads with a big drop-off. I like them!

Thwaites dark mild - sometimes have a few cans if I'm down on the Wirral and not heading out to the pub, don't think the pubs we normally go to have Thwaites on.

lindenengineering
03-07-2014, 04:26 PM
Yes
Single track roads!
My ex wife from Colorado hated them and one rainy evening drove the district nurse off a narrow two lane road into a field in her little FI--AT!

As a local gardner said leaning over the hedge "Eeh by gum, the lady had to take eeevasive action to avoid the blonde Yank in a yellow Truimph sports car driving ont wrong side of roooad!--Blody 'ell lad!:lol:
"Then she had the ordacity to say that uz Brits drive ont wrong side of roooad----can yah believe that--we had roooads before they had a country! ":lol:


Actually I have taken several groups of Americans to the area of Lancashire after doing the Lundun thing!
North Americans loved the Thwaites and South Americans (Venezuelans) all like Napster's area who where enamoured with a ****heroe country fair and a sheep gathering(herding) competition. Of course the highlight for them was a trip across the moors to Haworth and the Bronte rectory and church.
I stood back at one stage watching the Ven delegation asa group trying to have a broken English chat with a Lancashire farmer! Fun just be itself!:laughing:
Dennis

Dingo
03-07-2014, 05:02 PM
Dennis , i think we are back to ....
Puddin , chips , peawet , gravy , barmcake an gi us a can o dandelion & burdock

Tha dunt know tha's born lad
The tallest thing in Tarleton is the speed hump by the school

Dingo
03-07-2014, 05:10 PM
Napster , finally got hold of the info

The man to speak to is Brian at Blackpool Road & rally on 01253 394022
for this area he charges 70 per injector he pulls , he may know of someone closer to you as he got his kit from Blackburn area

Hope this helps you out :bash:

napster
03-19-2014, 12:40 AM
Just thought id update and see if theres any more constructive advise for my long lived black death nightmare.

Well i tried Dingos reccomendation on calling out the above named contact however he did not have the kit for the mercedes sprinter just like many of the other people i called.

After lots of ringing around and some expensive quotes in some cases 230 incl call out charge for one injector only. After further consideration i decided to go ahead and bite the bullet and invest in the toolkit.

In the end i decided to buy the hazet kit c/w the removal fork as discussed earlier in the thread.

It arrived this morning from Germany and i took to work on my injector. After some figuring out on how it works and having to contends with a slight kink in the top of the injector from my diy removal attempts. Heres the results:
http://www.napierindustrial.co.uk/20140318_175702.jpg

so hey presto some months later my injector is finally out!

Now im thinking of the next steps going to pick up a new injector in the morning just thinking what i have to do with the hole which looks to be filled with carbon.

Ive been reading about resurafcing or reseating but not really sure what to do. Was thinking of just cleaning it out and putting the new injector and copper seal back.

Could any of you guys offers some guidance on refitment....

Boater
03-19-2014, 01:34 AM
Strictly speaking you are supposed to re-cut the seat (seems to be a hand tool, but you need guide bushes to ensure concentricity and a system to stop the swarf dropping into the cylinder), but lots of DIY repairs just clean it and cross their fingers.

Make sure you get a new mercedes injector seal and hold down bolt - they are inexpensive from a MB commercial dealer parts dept. Stricly speaking you should also change the clamp, but again DIY repairs often skip that. Generic copper washers don't always work as seals (especially if they turn out to be copper plated steel (friend of a friend...)), and a new bolt has correct amount of threadlock on it, although some may argue they need more! Failure of the hold down (loose bolt?) is generally thought to be the reason combustion gases manage to blow by and cause black death so well worth changing those bits and following installation instructions carefully.

owner
03-19-2014, 01:47 AM
Yeah that hole looks well ropey. You want that puppy to shine with zero crud all the way down and especially on the seat at the bottom. A scotchbrite pad wraped/tied to a screwdriver and soaked in wd40 works for me.

Then you will be able to see if there is any erosion of the seat.

The new revision clamps are a forged steel part, rather than the billet part it came with. I'd change it for the sake of the 10 quid the dealer charges. Final point is you want that thread hole clean as possible too. Oh and don't forget the white special injector grease from the dealer too.

Whitevanmanfromwigam
03-19-2014, 02:02 AM
Mine were in solid too. Bought the tool. 70 quid on eBay. Now removed. Well happy except I'm left with a tool I no longer need lol.

photogravity
03-19-2014, 07:01 PM
Mine were in solid too. Bought the tool. 70 quid on eBay. Now removed. Well happy except I'm left with a tool I no longer need lol.

Sell it on eBay. :tongue:

napster
03-20-2014, 12:06 PM
Strictly speaking you are supposed to re-cut the seat (seems to be a hand tool, but you need guide bushes to ensure concentricity and a system to stop the swarf dropping into the cylinder), but lots of DIY repairs just clean it and cross their fingers.

Make sure you get a new mercedes injector seal and hold down bolt - they are inexpensive from a MB commercial dealer parts dept. Stricly speaking you should also change the clamp, but again DIY repairs often skip that. Generic copper washers don't always work as seals (especially if they turn out to be copper plated steel (friend of a friend...)), and a new bolt has correct amount of threadlock on it, although some may argue they need more! Failure of the hold down (loose bolt?) is generally thought to be the reason combustion gases manage to blow by and cause black death so well worth changing those bits and following installation instructions carefully.

Thanks for that im going to nip to the dealers buy a new bolt and washer from them to prevent this plague from happening again. As its been so long since the vans sitting there off the top of my head i forgot where the clamp was fitted and on second thoughts i might just put on a new one.


Yeah that hole looks well ropey. You want that puppy to shine with zero crud all the way down and especially on the seat at the bottom. A scotchbrite pad wraped/tied to a screwdriver and soaked in wd40 works for me.

Then you will be able to see if there is any erosion of the seat.

The new revision clamps are a forged steel part, rather than the billet part it came with. I'd change it for the sake of the 10 quid the dealer charges. Final point is you want that thread hole clean as possible too. Oh and don't forget the white special injector grease from the dealer too.

Im going to take up your advise on the brillo pad wrapped around the screwdriver and post the results up on here. Lets see if i can get the puppy shining!!!

Thanks guys for all the help :rad:

Dingo
03-20-2014, 01:33 PM
DO NOT use a brillo pad / wire wool ! ! !

Any gets into the cylinder & it will become Game Over quickly . I have cleaned injector holes by putting a blow gun into the injector port & scraping carefully with a bearing scraper .This removes the crud build up and the air blows it out of harms way avoiding any abrasive / grit / sharp edged nasty wrecking the bore of the cylinder .

Cromwell tools sell bearing scrapers https://www.cromwell.co.uk/ECL5530071Z something like this .

I did know of a friend who machined parallel reamers to allow air down the centre & out at the leading edge for a guy doing this kind of repair ,but he is no longer around

owner
03-21-2014, 01:40 AM
Yeah the scotchbrite I use is one of those green plastic pad things, not steel wool.

I just sucked out any crud afterwards with a small bore plastic hose taped to a shop vacuum cleaner. Just shove it right into the injector nozzle hole and Bobs your uncle, Fannys your aunt.

If you want to do it really really properly, you pull the glow plug, set that cyl to tdc, then apply continuous compressed air through a glowplug adapter while you clean/reface that injector bore/seat.

napster
03-25-2014, 07:31 PM
Hello Guys, Just a quick update this issue has still not been resolved. Obv after removing the injector which was stook it was unusuable so i had to find another one, rang around the local places alot of them wanted to recondition my old injector which i was not happy with. I found a place in Yorkshire who had them in stock used so i drove up there in the transit and bought one @ 90 :yell: they also wanted the old one back this is where my problems began!

Got back to the garage to find that i had either give them the injector clamp (noted that an earlier member reccomended i get a new one) So no problem went to MB dealers bought a new clamp, new hold down bolt and new copper washer. Great i was all geared up to get the van running.

The latest twist to the saga is the fitting at the top of the injector in which the retun pipes fit into held in by the little clip. I seem to have also give that away with the old injector or lost it, went down to the MB dealers they told me that piece is part of the injector.

Im now pulling my hair out on what to do, i think the part must be available from mercedes but its on a different parts diagram as the one the chap was looking at was just for the injector rail and the return pipes were not on there.

Care to shed any light guys. Just to clarify i need info on the small black plastic piece which the return or blow off pipes plug into the small metal clip holds it into place.



Im trying to find some images but im sure you guys no what i need.

Dingo
03-25-2014, 07:51 PM
Hello napster ,, never rains but it pours

bit of good news , try these men

MERLIN DIESEL SYSTEMS LTD

Our principal geographic and registered office address is:
Bradkirk Place,
Walton summit centre,
Preston,
PR5 8AJ

Parts & Workshop Tel: 01772 694130

Not far away from you & they may well have what you need or can advise as to what they use when rebuilding common rail injectors . Their common rail workshop is technically cleaner than an operating theatre as any dust can ruin an injector ..

As ever hope this helps you :cheers:

napster
03-25-2014, 08:03 PM
Thanks Dingo will try call them in the morning.

This is what i need:

http://www.napierindustrial.co.uk/bung.jpg

As its injector number 1( or the one nearest to the front) I reckon this fitting will be single ended or be blocked at one side.

Maybe some one has a MB part number handy :idunno:

Dingo
03-25-2014, 10:21 PM
Just found this :thumbup:

Seems to have all you want & more :rad:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Sprinter-Cdi-4-Cylinder-Leak-Off-Pipe-Overflow-Hose-Kit-Heavy-Duty-Hose-/221389151150 :cheers:

Boater
03-26-2014, 12:29 AM
I was going to suggest United Diesel (https://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/), they usually have a reasonable selection of minor parts for leak off lines but it certainly won't hurt to get a complete set from that ebay link instead.

If it is just the metal clip you are missing I may have one somewhere in my box of bits. My injectors don't use them (banjo fittings), but when I was cleaning up to remove the cylinder head I found one sitting in one of the recesses next to the injectors - I can only guess a PO has been mucking about with different injectors at some time. I may have lost it by now!
Hmm, maybe that's why I ended up with a cracked head and piston, maybe some PO had been running an odd injector for a while that didn't spray right for the engine?

napster
03-29-2014, 06:08 PM
Thanks for the help with this so far guys, bought all the parts the 90 degree t piece for the top of the injector was bought from merlin diesels for less than a fiver.

Ive now put everything back together undid the pipes to make sure diesel was flowing to injector correctly.

Been cranking it for 2 days now obviously checked the battery and everyhthing - charging it etc.

The darn thing just wont start any suggestions on how to move forward with this folks.

It just does not fire even with a whif of easy start.....

Boater
03-29-2014, 11:38 PM
Does it try to fire on easy start or nothing at all?
If nothing at all you must have lost compression.

I'm not familiar with the quirks of the common rail fuel system yet so can't offer much advice there, the fuel needs to be arriving at the injectors at high pressure but I haven't got my head round how the control systems work on a CDI.

napster
03-30-2014, 03:24 PM
Does it try to fire on easy start or nothing at all?
If nothing at all you must have lost compression.

I'm not familiar with the quirks of the common rail fuel system yet so can't offer much advice there, the fuel needs to be arriving at the injectors at high pressure but I haven't got my head round how the control systems work on a CDI.

When I spray easy start into it does attempt to start but only until the easy start runs out.

Ready to pull my hair out with this one

Boater
03-30-2014, 09:00 PM
If it fires until the easy start runs out that helps determine that the fuel isn't getting through, or at least not at the right pressure - not a problem with the engine itself.

No reason working on one injector should cause pump issues so the first thing to do is probably to re-check all the electrical connections, it might be as simple as the injectors aren't getting the signal to open due to a loose plug somewhere

napster
03-31-2014, 01:56 PM
Boater, Ive checked all the plus the injector wiring is slightly frayed but not torn at one bit due to the build up of the black death.

I might just try and remove it and replace it with a new one as a final attempt to get to the bottom of this.

Just hope it works.

Aqua Puttana
03-31-2014, 02:20 PM
I didn't go back and review this thread.

For T1N NAS aka NAFTA 5 cylinder diesels there are differences in the injector triggering circuits.

The OM647 2004 - 2006 can still run if one injector signal is faulty. There is even an injector test routine which uses that design to cut off injector signals one at time and watch for engine rpm response.

The OM612 2001 - 2003 will immediately shut down if even one injector signal is faulty.

So maybe you have ECM architecture similar to our NAS OM612 engines. In that case, a harness problem or other issue with just one injector position could be stopping all of the injectors from triggering.

:2cents: vic

napster
03-31-2014, 02:37 PM
I didn't go back and review this thread.

For T1N NAS aka NAFTA 5 cylinder diesels there are differences in the injector triggering circuits.

The OM647 2004 - 2006 can still run if one injector signal is faulty. There is even an injector test routine which uses that design to cut off injector signals one at time and watch for engine rpm response.

The OM612 2001 - 2003 will immediately shut down if even one injector signal is faulty.

So maybe you have ECM architecture similar to our NAS OM612 engines. In that case, a harness problem or other issue with just one injector position could be stopping all of the injectors from triggering.

:2cents: vic

vic, thanks for your response.

Mine is certainly a:
OM612 2001 - 2003 will immediately shut down if even one injector signal is faulty.[/B]

Now ive been looking around for a harness but no joy at the moment.

Is there any sort of electrical test i can run to determine if its sending any sort of signal to the injectors to switch on?

Aqua Puttana
03-31-2014, 03:59 PM
vic, thanks for your response.

Mine is certainly a:
OM612 2001 - 2003 will immediately shut down if even one injector signal is faulty.[/B]

Now I've been looking around for a harness but no joy at the moment.

Is there any sort of electrical test i can run to determine if its sending any sort of signal to the injectors to switch on?
There are some specific tests which can be found in the sevice manual. Some tests include checking for voltage. Others have checks for continuity using an ohmmeter.

Look under this section.
7.0 Diagnostic Information and Procedures

Here's a single page as an example of the format you will find.

58824

Be certain that you get the proper manual for the OM612 engines or else you may run into confusion with some of the OM647 engine specifics. One engine type clue is whether a vacuum actuator is shown for the turbo. NAS OM612 = vacuum, NAS OM647 = electronic actuated.

Some other related comments are here as to finding info in the manual.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31208

Thanks goes to JMoller99 for this resource. :thumbup::thumbup:


[/U]Service manuals[/U]

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26431


Good luck. vic

Boater
03-31-2014, 09:57 PM
Er, UK CDI T1Ns ending 08, 11 and 13 all use OM611 engine as far as I know....

Mercedes dealer can supply new plugs if you are comfortable soldering the pins and assembling them, Ciceley in Blackburn have always been quite helpful on the phone, they supplied me some replacement plugs for my ancient 312D a couple of years ago, not to mention engine parts I had no expectation of ever finding!

Hopefully some of the other UK guys who know the CDI engines will look in eventually with better tips.

napster
04-01-2014, 09:35 AM
Boater thanks for the tip in terms of the engine im sure mine is the one where it will not fire even if one of the injectors / signals is faulty.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Boater
04-01-2014, 02:25 PM
Yeah, sounds like it is working that way, so OM611 and OM612 must be the same that way.
The OM612 is the 160hp engne, the 110hp should be OM611. Unless it has had an upgrade or badge swap! :)

http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php/Sprinter

napster
04-02-2014, 08:28 PM
Ive decided to remove the injector loom fully from the engine to see if I can identify any problems with it.

Could anyone provide me with any more possibilities ?

Just to clarify ive changed an injector on my sprinter and got rid of the leak which is why I thought the van was not starting.

Its still the same turns over does not fire with a whiff of easy start it does attempt to run but only for a few seconds until it burns away.

Really do wish I can get this sorted soon

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk