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Sprinter SS
01-27-2014, 04:46 AM
I recently went to the Houston International auto show and I was able to check out various vans in one spot. I had not had a chance to look at the newly released Ram Promaster but as curious as I was I was not super impressed. The build quality was so so but the design is majorly less robust than a Sprinter. In the cargo area I saw wiring harnesses not fastened down, low quality plastic details and paint that barely covered the metal and was sprayed over gritty dirty surface.

Most amazing was the engine compartment. Wow, that is a tough to access engine. The one they had there had the 3.8 liter gasser motor and looking under the front the oil pan is just hanging down, maybe only 5 to 6 inches from the ground. The motor hangs so low in the engine room.

They had a new transit connect there which is a real upgrade from current connect but not really a direct competitor for a Sprinter. Ford guy said late fall on full size transit.

Then when I went out to my 12 model van to drive home it felt so solid, interior quality and engine so smooth. For now I think the Sprinter is still king of the hill in my view.

Daybreak Express
01-27-2014, 05:41 AM
I checked out a ProMaster at a Cape Cod Dodge dealer; not impressed, for much the same reason as Sprinter SS. Plus, I've never been a fan of front wheel drive; the c-v joints (f.w. drive equivalent of a u-joint in a r.w. drive) don't hold up nearly as well as u-joints, and cost a lot more to buy and to install. If they're that much trouble in a car, I have my doubts about them in a truck. Also, I never cared for the way the f.w.d. cars I've driven have handled. Then again, I'm 62 y.o.-guess I'm old-fashioned, and used to r.w.d. I'm confidently-and eagerly-awaiting delivery of my Sprinter!

boardster
01-27-2014, 12:31 PM
Ford guy said late fall on full size transit.



Late fall now? There must be some serious problems with that van!

72chevy4x4
01-27-2014, 03:41 PM
speaking of front wheel drive...this Sprinter has been absolutely phenomenal in the snow! Not sure if the added 2000+ lbs makes a great difference in my case, but the traction and control on snow covered roads makes me a bit cocky

OrioN
01-27-2014, 05:20 PM
Late fall now? There must be some serious problems with that van!

yep... still trying to figure out how to shoehorn in the f150 & mustang parts.. and get them to work together properly. :bash:

tphilly
01-27-2014, 07:34 PM
The Ram Promaster is just a re-badged Citroen Relay with a bigger engine than it's European counterpart. Here in the Uk, you can only get them with a 2.2 diesel engine. If they have used citroen build quality then it's one to stay away from.

Uncle Dave
01-27-2014, 08:09 PM
yep... still trying to figure out how to shoehorn in the f150 & mustang parts.. and get them to work together properly. :bash:


Taking the existing engine and drivetrain from the wildly popular and highly formidable F150 Ecoboost and mounting to a van chassis is not a tall feat nor a new idea.

Tune the suspension for the load - throw in a couple of components switches that work elsewhere and you are in bushiness.

The dually diesel comes up now in the configurator. I though MB would hold that edge for at least another year.

UD

PaulDavis
01-27-2014, 08:09 PM
The Ram Promaster is just a re-badged Citroen Relay with a bigger engine than it's European counterpart. Here in the Uk, you can only get them with a 2.2 diesel engine. If they have used citroen build quality then it's one to stay away from.

The story in the US is that it is a Fiat Ducato with a new front "nose". No idea which one is correct.

6cyclone6
01-27-2014, 08:45 PM
Fiat, remember Fiat owns Chrysler now.

OrioN
01-27-2014, 08:51 PM
Taking the existing engine and drivetrain from the wildly popular and highly formidable F150 Ecoboost and mounting to a van chassis is not a tall feat nor a new idea.

Are we not talking ford?? Detroit/Michigan labour pool?

Tune the suspension for the load - throw in a couple of components switches that work elsewhere and you are in bushiness.

I prefer 'trimmed' meself.

The dually diesel comes up now in the configurator. I though MB would hold that edge for at least another year.

Are we not still talking 'ghosts' here?

UD

...other than the above, you are correct sir.

Uncle Dave
01-27-2014, 09:04 PM
...other than the above, you are correct sir.

Yeah we are talking Ford, but in the case of the F150 drivetrain- the squirrel found its nut blind or not. That package redefines 1/2 ton payload an performance with mileage.

Trimmed/ Tuned- ok..

Ghost on the config- That really depends if that config is available in europe if it is Id say its no ghost.

I know the diesel "2500" transit equivalent is both available and a good truck, I have clients that have them and they like them.

Im on Team Benz with my own wallet but I respect this competitor as formidable and no joke.

UD

6cyclone6
01-27-2014, 09:15 PM
It will be a good adversary for the Sprinter, however by the major player(s) moving to the euro type van I think it will highlight the legitimacy of the Sprinter for those who dismiss it based of it being so different from typical American offerings. The price point for the Transit will slim the gap between the Ford and the Sprinter as well. The Dodge (fiat) is doing fairly well in Europe, but there will be resistance due to the fwd, and how just plain ugly it is. The price point on it is lower then the Sprinter, but it is closer than an Econoline or Express. I have seen them both (transit preproduction) and Promaster in person. There is a reason they are less expensive.

OrioN
01-27-2014, 09:29 PM
It will be a good adversary for the Sprinter, however by the major player(s) moving to the euro type van I think it will highlight the legitimacy of the Sprinter for those who dismiss it based of it being so different from typical American offerings. The price point for the Transit will slim the gap between the Ford and the Sprinter as well. The Dodge (fiat) is doing fairly well in Europe, but there will be resistance due to the fwd, and how just plain ugly it is. The price point on it is lower then the Sprinter, but it is closer than an Econoline or Express. I have seen them both (transit preproduction) and Promaster in person. There is a reason they are less expensive.

Currently, I believe Dodge is pushing Sprinter sales... just last week and end of December, two of my buddies, both contractors and with near 10 year old Savana & econoline respectively, purchased 2014 Sprinters after viewing and road testing the rammaster. Sadly, one was so thrilled with the MB, he forgot to negotiate :bash:. And, bought a low roof too. :shifty:

Boxster1971
01-28-2014, 02:39 AM
The Ford Transit delay could be caused by need for some redesign to meet US safety/crash standards. That was the cause for some delay on the US sale of new BMW i3 electric.

Graphite Dave
01-28-2014, 03:19 AM
Since the news has stories about Ford hiring 1000 new workers to produce the Transit, one would expect that they will show up at dealers before late summer. I doubt Ford would hire folks to stand around. Will they know what they are doing, would be a better question.

boardster
01-28-2014, 12:02 PM
The Ford Transit delay could be caused by need for some redesign to meet US safety/crash standards. That was the cause for some delay on the US sale of new BMW i3 electric.

Yeah but this Transit is supposed to have been designed from the beginning as a world vehicle including U.S. That stuff would have been designed right in at the start.

pgr
01-28-2014, 12:41 PM
The Ford Transit delay could be caused by need for some redesign to meet US safety/crash standards. That was the cause for some delay on the US sale of new BMW i3 electric.

I doubt that very much. More likely simply problems getting up to speed!

flman
01-28-2014, 01:02 PM
...other than the above, you are correct sir.

Yeah we are talking Ford, but in the case of the F150 drivetrain- the squirrel found its nut blind or not. That package redefines 1/2 ton payload an performance with mileage.

Trimmed/ Tuned- ok..

Ghost on the config- That really depends if that config is available in europe if it is Id say its no ghost.

I know the diesel "2500" transit equivalent is both available and a good truck, I have clients that have them and they like them.

Im on Team Benz with my own wallet but I respect this competitor as formidable and no joke.

UD

The Ford Econoline has proven it self as a great van, and the Ford F150s have been proven for over 50 years. Sounds to me like Ford is in no rush to push a flop out the door, they want to get it right so that I may some day be the happy owner of a torquey Ecoboost gas engine powered van. :thumbup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnE9eN7Vi4

bobojay
01-28-2014, 09:55 PM
They are building Transit pre-production "bodies in white" right now as we speak. This is a very, very complicated vehicle to get up & running, and after the new Escape recalls fiasco, I'm sure they want to get it right.
Most of you don't have any idea how hard it's going to be getting this van going with all the build options, new tooling, new paint shop, and 700+ new employees, and most of all, the new suppliers that had to build new facilities around the Kansas City area with the same, just getting up to speed issues.
Once the Transit is up and running I think it will be a very tough competitor to the Sprinter. I know the interior shots I've seen show a very up to date, quality, modern looking interior.

I'm speaking here from 34+ years of experience with GM in production at 5 different facilities.

By the way, "bodies in white" is a term used for vehicles that are built strictly for dimensional and parts fitment verification. They won't ever see the light of private ownership and get scrapped after all the checks & tests are made

boardster
01-28-2014, 10:08 PM
O.K., so they're doing this right. But realistically, to take delivery of one that has been built with whatever mods it took to get past the initial recall issues that we have to assume will happen given the complexity of this new van we're looking at maybe Jan 2016?
I'm getting too old for that......

OrioN
01-28-2014, 10:12 PM
O.K., so they're doing this right. But realistically, to take delivery of one that has been built with whatever mods it took to get past the initial recall issues that we have to assume will happen given the complexity of this new van we're looking at maybe Jan 2016?
I'm getting too old for that......

I wouldn't bother to wait.

I had a ford once... lesson learned...

...and, don't get me started on the car show I once worked at as a 'detail-er'... :thumbdown:

pfflyer
01-28-2014, 10:48 PM
Since the news has stories about Ford hiring 1000 new workers to produce the Transit, one would expect that they will show up at dealers before late summer. I doubt Ford would hire folks to stand around. Will they know what they are doing, would be a better question.

I guess you never heard of idle rooms or job banks. This article is about GM but all the big 3 have this program where laid off workers get 95% pay to wait in a room some cases years to be reassigned while watching tv or reading.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/

Uncle Dave
01-29-2014, 02:09 AM
1st year of anything includes free sign up for the drama club.

Hope Ford has plans to help pass the time...http://youtu.be/PacsVLVvpBQ

Killer.

UD

Graphite Dave
01-29-2014, 02:33 AM
I guess you never heard of idle rooms or job banks. This article is about GM but all the big 3 have this program where laid off workers get 95% pay to wait in a room some cases years to be reassigned while watching tv or reading.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/

Not the point. They would not bring people in if there wasn't any work to do. New hires or laid off workers. Now that build information is starting to filter out, one would have to suspect that the vehicle is not far behind. Personally I would not want one of the first ones anyway.

bobojay
01-29-2014, 03:51 AM
I guess you never heard of idle rooms or job banks. This article is about GM but all the big 3 have this program where laid off workers get 95% pay to wait in a room some cases years to be reassigned while watching tv or reading.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/

The "idle rooms" and Job Banks were eliminated in the 2010 contracts. Toyota still does it though...

flman
01-29-2014, 07:37 PM
Ford, MB, Nissan, Ram might I suggest:

the perfect service department receptionist http://youtu.be/0FQ_OXs8dis

and a free wash after service http://youtu.be/mPwhMoQBg_8

Pm me for my royalty check mailing address.

Condoning ignorance, and moronic behavior.
credits to OrioN

Good video :thumbup:

Uncle Dave
01-30-2014, 04:03 AM
I would submit the Nissan falls out quickly because of several issues.

Its built on the titan chassis and has a much higher step in height.

It lacks the longer extended wheelbase options, and dually.

The engine and trans are awesome, but Nissan has had problems with the design of headers being iterated with the cats. They are uber expensive and crack frequently.

UD

tadeo1
01-30-2014, 04:07 AM
The Ram Promaster is just a re-badged Citroen Relay with a bigger engine than it's European counterpart. Here in the Uk, you can only get them with a 2.2 diesel engine. If they have used citroen build quality then it's one to stay away from.

No The Ram ProMaster is not a Citroen, it is the USA Cheap version of the Fiat Ducato which is an excellent van, Dodge made the body wider and put the V6 gasoline engine but looks cheap from top to bottom, I think Fiat will be as mad as Mercedes did with Chrysler. I have seen the Fiat Ducato in Argentina it looks great almost as out Sprinters but the USA version stinks.
I was mad of all the problems I had with my 2008 Sprinter and wrote about it saying that I was planning to go into a Pro Master, I take it back, I drove back my Sprinter happy, my wife hated the Pro Master. The Dodge salesman said that I should expect 17 to 25 MPG with the Pro Master which is bull****, Dodge has not released MPG figures. The best mileage I got with my 2008 is 22 MPG, this was in Canada when I accidentally put 4 gallons of gasoline in the tank, Canada has Green for gasoline and yellow for diesel in the stations, a warning for us USA people that think green is diesel, the Ford dealer across the street put all kinds of diesel additives in my tank and I went ahead with a 1/6 mix of gasoline, I got the best mileage in the trip, but please do not do this it was just an accident....ha..ha...ha..

Uncle Dave
01-30-2014, 04:21 AM
gasoline in a diesel eh? scary. Always wondered what would happen small doses.
Put kerosene in a diesel before, and have seen diesel in a gas auto...but never seen that.

Yeah 25 mpg?

Maybe if it was driven off the side of the matterhorn averaged on the way down.

UD

bcislander
01-30-2014, 11:35 PM
snip....
The best mileage I got with my 2008 is 22 MPG, this was in Canada when I accidentally put 4 gallons of gasoline in the tank, Canada has Green for gasoline and yellow for diesel in the stations, a warning for us USA people that think green is diesel, the Ford dealer across the street put all kinds of diesel additives in my tank and I went ahead with a 1/6 mix of gasoline, I got the best mileage in the trip, but please do not do this it was just an accident....ha..ha...ha..

The pump handle colours vary from fuel station to fuel station here in Canada, just like in the USA. You have to double-check that you are at the correct pump & that you grab the correct nozzle when at a multiple fuel pump.

The diesel fuel stain on the concrete is also a good indicator, but try not to step on a recent spill. :smilewink:

tphilly
01-31-2014, 05:24 PM
No The Ram ProMaster is not a Citroen, it is the USA Cheap version of the Fiat Ducato which is an excellent van, Dodge made the body wider and put the V6 gasoline engine but looks cheap from top to bottom, I think Fiat will be as mad as Mercedes did with Chrysler. I have seen the Fiat Ducato in Argentina it looks great almost as out Sprinters but the USA version stinks.
I was mad of all the problems I had with my 2008 Sprinter and wrote about it saying that I was planning to go into a Pro Master, I take it back, I drove back my Sprinter happy, my wife hated the Pro Master. The Dodge salesman said that I should expect 17 to 25 MPG with the Pro Master which is bull****, Dodge has not released MPG figures. The best mileage I got with my 2008 is 22 MPG, this was in Canada when I accidentally put 4 gallons of gasoline in the tank, Canada has Green for gasoline and yellow for diesel in the stations, a warning for us USA people that think green is diesel, the Ford dealer across the street put all kinds of diesel additives in my tank and I went ahead with a 1/6 mix of gasoline, I got the best mileage in the trip, but please do not do this it was just an accident....ha..ha...ha..

Looks like Citroen bought the design from Fiat as well. Either way, both are one to avoid

montana
02-03-2014, 07:50 AM
I am not sure what I am going to do. I have a 06 sprinter long and tall ..love it have had a fair amount of mechanical problems...actually more than any rig I have ever owned.... but for what I use it for works great. I would most days run it than my brand new ford f 350 crew cab diesel that is tottaly decked out.. My biggest problem is the closest dealer to me for sprinter I think is like 200 miles one way ... I have had a hard time finding anyone that can work on my old sprinter. If I had a local dealer pretty sure I would buy a new sprinter. If they would bring their all wheel drive to the us I would buy it in a second probable buy two.... however I am tired of wating for that... I did go cheack out the dodge it did seam more comfortable than my 06 which is not fare being it is not new ( however I do not have the time to drive 200 miles one way to look at a van) If no one will give me a all wheel drive I might be wheeling to try a front wheel drive... the dodge front could not get any more ugly it does not have good fit and finish but I do like a lot of the interior of the cab compared to my older rig . The Dodge is definitely cheaper I am sure it resale will be crap compared to the sprinter however . I usually drive my rigs right into the grave and if they refuse to die I will a lot of time give them to someone in need . so resale right now doesn't concern me much .

bobojay
02-03-2014, 06:54 PM
montana, AWD is coming in 2015, if you didn't know already

Sprinter SS
02-04-2014, 03:18 AM
montana, AWD is coming in 2015, if you didn't know already

I have heard for the last 5 years...." just one more year and we get 4wd or awd. ...", ha!

montana
02-04-2014, 04:12 AM
I hope it is I would like said above buy two new ones . But I have heard that for awhile also... Has anyone ever hear of MB letting a none MB do any warranty work or can a none MB dealer even get the latest greatest software to figure it out... I think sprinter are great It just worries me about having a dealer a couple hundred miles one way away from me.. especially when I need these van 7 days a week.... If they are coming to USA I would think buy late fall a guy should be able to get one speced out and maybe even ordered if it is finely true..

bobojay
02-04-2014, 06:36 PM
Freightliner is doing warranty work on MB or Freightliner Sprinters. Is there a Freightliner Sprinter dealer near you?
The AWD 2015 Sprinter for North America is all over the internet....

dynaco1
02-04-2014, 11:29 PM
I saw the local Ford factory folks driving their new Transits near the Kansas City airport not long ago. The vans looked good passing by at 60mph (I was in my Prius). The local MB Sprinter salesman here in KC told me that a few Ford engineers stopped by recently to examine his inventory. He didn't offer them a test drive.

Graphite Dave
02-05-2014, 01:38 AM
I saw the local Ford factory folks driving their new Transits near the Kansas City airport not long ago. The vans looked good passing by at 60mph (I was in my Prius). The local MB Sprinter salesman here in KC told me that a few Ford engineers stopped by recently to examine his inventory. He didn't offer them a test drive.

I would expect multiple Sprinters are in Ford's possession as well as Fiats and anything else close. Some completely disassembled to look at each part. If you were designing a new van, wouldn't you carefully look at what the competition has to offer. I know I would.

boardster
02-05-2014, 01:46 AM
Driving to work today I saw more severely corroded T1N's then ever before in one day. That reminded me that my '08 Brilliant Silver Metallic 170" tall had already started that process a year ago.
I'm guessing the '14's are no better protected, but certainly the Fords will be......... Right????

cahaak
02-05-2014, 02:50 AM
Corrosion is an issue that most major vehicle manufacturers solved / greatly addressed at least a decade ago. Sadly, the T1N didn't partake of that knowledge. I have a 2001 Honda Odyssey van that is missing paint (down to the primer) and all beat up all over and it basically is not rusting. My 2006 T1N looks like it has the oxidation chicken pox on several panels and that van spent the first three years of its life in Houston - my Odyssey has lived all its life and winters here in MN. Major issue with body prep / priming on the T1Ns, there is simply no other way around it. On the other hand, there are many older mercedes (cars) up here in MN that look fine. The process that they are using on the T1N is missing / lacking something.

Chris

Uncle Dave
02-05-2014, 03:22 AM
I would expect multiple Sprinters are in Ford's possession as well as Fiats and anything else close. Some completely disassembled to look at each part. If you were designing a new van, wouldn't you carefully look at what the competition has to offer. I know I would.

Design has been done for some time now.

I expect somewhere there is a bin of what used to be sprinter parts as well as a whole sprinter frame sectioned in pieces to see how thick various parts are.

Ford does this often with Trucks see enclosed comparison techniques)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVW-uKLvNbY This is actually pretty entertaining.

It'll be interesting to see who they choose to attack in promotional material - I doubt it will be Mercedez.

UD

Graphite Dave
02-05-2014, 04:05 AM
It was interesting to look at the Ford Transit bare weldment at the LA Auto show. I am not an expert but the Ford looked like a much stiffer design. The rear door frames were much larger than my Sprinter and they have a 3 1/2" wide by 21" high (from memory) box above the floor from the front to back on the drivers side and from the rear doors to the slider on the passenger side. Suspect the Transit body will be much more rigid than the Sprinter. Ford has the advantage of dissecting the Sprinter before they designed the Transit.

OrioN
02-05-2014, 04:09 AM
It was interesting to look at the Ford Transit bare weldment at the LA Auto show. I am not an expert but the Ford looked like a much stiffer design. The rear door frames were much larger than my Sprinter and they have a 3 1/2" wide by 21" high (from memory) box above the floor from the front to back on the drivers side and from the rear doors to the slider on the passenger side. Suspect the Transit body will be much more rigid than the Sprinter. Ford has the advantage of dissecting the Sprinter before they designed the Transit.

Is stiffer better? And why? :professor:

Are there currently issues with the Sprinter not being stiff? :idunno:

Perhaps too stiff isn't as safe in collisions (energy adsorption)?? :hmmm:


:popcorn:

Uncle Dave
02-05-2014, 04:44 AM
It was interesting to look at the Ford Transit bare weldment at the LA Auto show. I am not an expert but the Ford looked like a much stiffer design. The rear door frames were much larger than my Sprinter and they have a 3 1/2" wide by 21" high (from memory) box above the floor from the front to back on the drivers side and from the rear doors to the slider on the passenger side. Suspect the Transit body will be much more rigid than the Sprinter. Ford has the advantage of dissecting the Sprinter before they designed the Transit.


Yes they get a firsthand looksee for sure.

Who knows where Ford will prioritize their build money or how much they will spend to compete.

Fords tow weight will give us an idea of unit body strength.


UD

d_bertko
02-05-2014, 08:52 PM
Stiffness in general is a very desirable design goal. Typically improves handling characteristics for example. (Convertibles suffer if not reinforced to compensate for loss of some unibody stiffness.)

It is easy enough to deal with too stiff but not with too flexy.

The twin i-beams on a pickup truck were very dangerous because they could spear occupants of a t-boned car as they were higher than most cars' (strong) doorsills. The redesign lowered the front bumper with a zigzag in the leading edge of the i-beams. That gave car doorsill overlap and both truck and car occupants benefit from the graceful failure of the i-beam crumple zone engineering.

Dan

flman
02-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Stiffness in general is a very desirable design goal. Typically improves handling characteristics for example. (Convertibles suffer if not reinforced to compensate for loss of some unibody stiffness.)

It is easy enough to deal with too stiff but not with too flexy.

The twin i-beams on a pickup truck were very dangerous because they could spear occupants of a t-boned car as they were higher than most cars' (strong) doorsills. The redesign lowered the front bumper with a zigzag in the leading edge of the i-beams. That gave car doorsill overlap and both truck and car occupants benefit from the graceful failure of the i-beam crumple zone engineering.

Dan

And I always wondered why Ferdinand Porsche and Enzo Ferrari made their cars stiff? :smilewink:

Graphite Dave
02-05-2014, 09:55 PM
Is stiffer better? And why? :professor:

Are there currently issues with the Sprinter not being stiff? :idunno:

Perhaps too stiff isn't as safe in collisions (energy adsorption)?? :hmmm:


:popcorn:

The professor responds: A rigid structure allows the suspension to function as designed. If the suspension mounts are moving around due to the body flexing then the suspension will not follow the designed movement paths. Note that all manufacturers think it is a positive to have more torsional rigidity in the vehicle body. That is why they mention it in their advertisements. I also suspect that the body flexing is one of the primary reasons why my Sprinter "hops" when I enter my driveway at an angle. My Dodge Dakota does not do that and it has similar suspension. Sure feels like the Sprinter body is twisting. Could be the cause.

Just today figured out why my sliding door some times can not be opened. The flexing body causes it to bind. Could not open it today so tried moved the Sprinter to a more level parking place and door opened correctly. I will try to confirm that the next time it will not open.

Uncle Dave
02-05-2014, 09:57 PM
Dan is quite right.

The stiffer the chassis the better suspension works.
Its hard to tune dampening and spring rate for frame flex.

Usually you will see chassis stiffness measured in hertz-

- aren't sprinters and Transits both unibodies?



UD

I typed this at the same time Dave did in the post above.

Graphite Dave
02-05-2014, 10:11 PM
Both are unibodies. I just mentioned that the Transit looks much stiffer to the untrained eye. Obviously there are many factors involved. Strength of steel used, structural design and the material thicknesses. For all I know the Ford may be worse than the Sprinter. I did notice the different approach that Ford has taken in their design relative to the Sprinter.

bobojay
02-06-2014, 02:07 AM
A bit off subject but was brought up earlier about the Ford showing off their truck frame. Several years ago, about 2010 timeframe I believe, I saw a video that someone, I don't remember who, but it wasn't one of the companies involved, had taken new Chevy, Ford and Toyota Tundra pickups, 1/2 ton 1500's, and run them over a straight course where they had laid out alternating wooden 4x4's where one side of the truck's front wheel would hit one at the same time the opposite side rear would hit one.
They drove each truck over these at 40mph for a distance of 200 ft. The Ford & Chevy drove over them pretty much equal, with very little frame flex and very little body movements. The suspensions were absorbing the "hit", thus showing the frame flex strength of each.
The Toyota however went over them with major frame and body flex. During that 200 ft drive, there was so much flex there that the back cab window glass shattered and fell out. But the kicker was when the tailgate finally fell off.
A perfect example of what this thread has been talking about

Uncle Dave
02-06-2014, 02:26 AM
Both are unibodies. I just mentioned that the Transit looks much stiffer to the untrained eye. Obviously there are many factors involved. Strength of steel used, structural design and the material thicknesses. For all I know the Ford may be worse than the Sprinter. I did notice the different approach that Ford has taken in their design relative to the Sprinter.

Your (spidey) senses aren't lying to you about flex.

You can bet your Sprinter and that Ford are comparatively "flexy flyers" compared to full framed vehicle - drive off a curb at a slight off angle when one set of wheels is higher than the other and angled and you can feel it.

I can in our rig but Im sensitive to it because I off road sometimes and know what Im feeling.

My 3500 twists less than my E250 did but more than a 350 class van- and Ford also knows this.

I remember that frame test - the tundra did very poorly. In another test they cut roof sections out with a saw and compared channel construction and various other aspects I always wondered about.

UD

surlyoldbill
02-06-2014, 03:10 AM
Why would Ford dissect a Sprinter NOW to make changes to a van Ford has been manufacturing and improving for decades? Don't they have their own long term testing?

Uncle Dave
02-06-2014, 04:32 AM
Why would Ford dissect a Sprinter NOW to make changes to a van Ford has been manufacturing and improving for decades? Don't they have their own long term testing?

Thats why I said earlier this has already been done.

UD

Evzen
02-06-2014, 05:02 AM
You guys have it all wrong...you are using your brain and logic!! The truck and car makers are NOT! The world is run by morons, NOT common sense. Would you dissect every van and find out how to dominate the market, of course you would, but they are not. They just going to make some crap, with numerous recalls and customer frustration. That's how it is and always was. Do you think that MB is interested reading our complains on forums? They do not care as long we are buying there stuff with a STAR on the hood and the others...same stuff, it is about money.

Uncle Dave
02-06-2014, 05:21 PM
I read this thread while trying to collect some money past due.

Drove the Nissan, nicest Ford econoline ever made.


The VK56 is a potent weapon with an expensive design issue. (header/cats)

The Jatco 5sp although tough, in that it can tow 10K is yestertech with the amount of gears it has.
Vans like this would be better of with a 6 speed box rated for less tow capacity.

Because its built on the Titan frame- it will be stiffer than the unit body vans.


UD

surlyoldbill
02-06-2014, 05:40 PM
You guys have it all wrong...you are using your brain and logic!! The truck and car makers are NOT! The world is run by morons, NOT common sense. Would you dissect every van and find out how to dominate the market, of course you would, but they are not. They just going to make some crap, with numerous recalls and customer frustration. That's how it is and always was. Do you think that MB is interested reading our complains on forums? They do not care as long we are buying there stuff with a STAR on the hood and the others...same stuff, it is about money.

:thumbup:

The Ford Transit has been in production since 1965. Just because it wasn't for sale in the USA doesn't mean it never existed before model year 2015. There are a lot of givens that don't require dissection of another brand's vehicle, and no brand can keep their innovations secret, because all some other company has to do is go down and buy a vehicle and look at it. There may be patents involved, though. Most of design is involved in cost-cutting and profit-making, which SOMETIMES results in innovation for the end user by making something more desirable to own.

Nhuskys
02-06-2014, 11:35 PM
Why would Ford dissect a Sprinter NOW to make changes to a van Ford has been manufacturing and improving for decades? Don't they have their own long term testing?

10 years ago I posted on a dirt bike bb, asking why Ford wasn't bringing the Transit to NA. A Ford engineer posted, saying that the then Transit platform, was in no way adequate for NA use and would be unsafe in typical road conditions here. I was surprised, figuring that road conditions are not that different in the rest of the world....

bobojay
02-06-2014, 11:47 PM
10 years ago I posted on a dirt bike bb, asking why Ford wasn't bringing the Transit to NA. A Ford engineer posted, saying that the then Transit platform, was in no way adequate for NA use and would be unsafe in typical road conditions here. I was surprised, figuring that road conditions are not that different in the rest of the world....

One of the things Chrysler had to do to beef up the Ducato chassis to make the North American ProMaster was add frame cross members, higher strength steel and add alot of rust preventative protection. Not to mention beefed up suspension pieces

surlyoldbill
02-06-2014, 11:58 PM
I suppose USA crash standards are about the toughest in the world. Another thing we have here that prevents import of many popular vehicle platforms is a minimum acceleration standard. Japanese Kei Class vehicles would be IDEAL for most US urban areas, except they can't pass either test.