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mean_in_green
12-12-2013, 12:59 PM
From February in the UK vehicles will automatically fail the MOT test if a DPF had been fitted as standard but is found to be no longer present.

For those not familiar the MOT test is an annual roadworthiness check. All vehicles must have either have a valid test or be declared out of use via a statutory notification.

Interesting!

Aqua Puttana
12-12-2013, 01:20 PM
From February in the UK vehicles will automatically fail the MOT test if a filter had been fitted as standard but is found to be no longer present.

For those not familiar the MOT test is an annual roadworthiness check. All vehicles must have either have a valid test or be declared out of use via a statutory notification.

Interesting!
Our New York State annual inspection includes verification of pollution control devices. I believe that it is basically a visual inspection to identify that the parts are in place. I recall finding where owners had removed the catalytic converters, broken up the internal honeycomb, and re-installed the shell. So that passed the visual inspection.

Other than the visual inspection the only other test that I'm aware of is a required access and record of the OBDII port for emissions related DTC's for vehicles newer than 1996. That information is communicated to the NYS government data bank.

vic

mean_in_green
12-12-2013, 01:37 PM
I can imagine there will be a lot of NCV3 owners affected in the UK Vic, as deleting your DPF is amongst the current tuning crazes.

What I find interesting is that enforcement of manufacturer emissions systems has happened here at all.

jackbombay
12-12-2013, 03:00 PM
What I find interesting is that enforcement of manufacturer emissions systems has happened here at all.

They are probably aware of the latest tuning craze and are putting an end to it.

flman
12-12-2013, 09:58 PM
Our New York State annual inspection includes verification of pollution control devices. I believe that it is basically a visual inspection to identify that the parts are in place. I recall finding where owners had removed the catalytic converters, broken up the internal honeycomb, and re-installed the shell. So that passed the visual inspection.

Other than the visual inspection the only other test that I'm aware of is a required access and record of the OBDII port for emissions related DTC's for vehicles newer than 1996. That information is communicated to the NYS government data bank.

vic

They are not testing commercial vehicles in NY, and the Sprinter is commercial.

lindenengineering
12-13-2013, 03:52 AM
Guys
Well as a general statement here in the US it is illegal from a Fed point of view to eliminate any emission control device by a professional or company engaged in the auto repair or supply business. Basic fine of $10,000 for each offense!
(Curtain call for the 3000 lb EPA Gorilla entering the room!):lol:

Some of the rules in the past have been blurred by Off Road Use Only statement disclaimers, but even some of those gaps have now been closed over the past year or so, especially with exhaust emission after treatment systems for diesels.

The Dodge Cummins powered Ram 25400/3500 PU line immediately comes to mind for me (although Ford and GM not to mention MB stuff we know) where the manufacturer installed/programmed a CEL warning & limp mode condition should the system be tampered with or even eliminated; as one country genius tried to do from Montana and limped into my shop on a Saturday PM, pulling a four horse trailer with his precious distressed bloodstock inside. (very nice beautiful Paso Finos by the way!)

Now as a private individual this law seems to skirt the issue or not apply, but its just that you cannot get the vehicle passed in some states by not conforming to the visual and rolling road test tail pipe opacity emissions. The CEL of course must stay off and pass the E related OBD2 parameters by scan when doing the test nor drop into the limp mode!

That is basically the same in the UK as here in Colorado and other "E concious" States in the US.

Now I can tell you that the UK mechanical test is "up there" and by far more stringent than the US tests by far!

For info with two feet on either side of the pond contrary to popular UK impressions the USA does not have uniform centralized E test like the UK , each individual state within the Union sets it own rules and regulations. That explains why some folk can propose and install all sorts of erronoeus non compliant engines in all sorts of platforms. (Compared with Europe its a bodgers paradise in the USA!)

Now this is basically the same as the EU where for example the TUV test in Germany is much more stringent than in say Poland or the UK just!.

So as we can see the electronics packaged into todays modern vehicle are thwarting the modifiers. From abs controllers and mix and match wheels/tyres to steering assist the sensors are "doing 'in" the most determined modifiers .
Dennis

kendall69
12-13-2013, 05:14 AM
The test here in Ca, is a guy that does not speak English and can hardly open the hood. $75.00 lighter PASS

Aqua Puttana
12-13-2013, 06:01 AM
They are not testing commercial vehicles in NY, and the Sprinter is commercial.
You are correct, except I'm pretty certain it is based upon weight, not commercial. I forgot about the weight. I think 1997 and newer diesels under 8501# do need the OBDII test. Based upon weight the Sprinter doesn't get scanned. They are still supposed to visually check for emissions equipment. If your truck came OEM with a catalytic converter then they are supposed to look for one.

The rules are (or at least were) different and more strict for trucks registered in the New York City area. Been too many years since I inspected vehicles. I don't keep up with the rules so much anymore.

Thanks for the correction. vic

flman
12-13-2013, 10:35 AM
You are correct, except I'm pretty certain it is based upon weight, not commercial. I forgot about the weight. I think 1997 and newer diesels under 8501# do need the OBDII test. Based upon weight the Sprinter doesn't get scanned. They are still supposed to visually check for emissions equipment. If your truck came OEM with a catalytic converter then they are supposed to look for one.

The rules are (or at least were) different and more strict for trucks registered in the New York City area. Been too many years since I inspected vehicles. I don't keep up with the rules so much anymore.

Thanks for the correction. vic

Right, it is around 8 to 8.5k. Not too many cars weight that much if any? So you used to do inspections, can you give me a waiver? :smilewink:

And for Lindenengineering, America is a nation off scofflaws. :cheers:

Remember prohibition? :cheers:

wshtb
12-13-2013, 08:00 PM
Is the DPF-delete procedure reversible? Couldn't you refit the DPF just for inspection?

sailquik
12-13-2013, 09:06 PM
I'm still amazed that you folks would take the risk of the huge monetary fines, ruin your possibilities for any sort of warranty from Mercedes Benz,
to eliminate the DPF.
If you would simply learn to drive your Sprinter correctly, use the BEST fluids available, get your Sprinter serviced at genuine
Mercedes Benz Sprinter Commercial Dealers, there would be NO valid reason to delete the DPF/EGR etc.
I can only speak from my own personal experience here.
I do all of the things I mentioned in the 2nd sentence above, and I've never had any sort of issue.
The DPF regenerates transparently, the EGR does what it's designed to do, the SCR/DEF system might need an occasional refill for $12.00 but the DEF fluid is totally available (PEAK Blue DEF 2.5 gallon kits @ Walmart for $11.96).
YMMV!
Roger

Old Crows
12-13-2013, 09:45 PM
Spot on Roger! FWIW, Audi and Peugeot ran LMP1 turbo diesel DPF (FAP in French) at Le Mans (and other races) for about 5 or 6 years. They were high output, high torque engines that were "clean running" and very fast and successful.

The technology transfer to street vehicles is straight forward. CRDI, DPF, Cats, Adblue are maligned as power robbing, fuel guzzling, expensive, fragile government interventions. They are not, IMHO. They are, given the state of the art in technology, the best we can do to produce street able, powerful, efficient, clean running vehicles for today and tomorrow.

It IS about adapting to the new technology...

Taking emissions controls off a vehicle to improve performance is a fool's errand.

OrioN
12-13-2013, 09:52 PM
Spot on Roger! FWIW, Audi and Peugeot ran LMP1 turbo diesel DPF (FAP in French) at Le Mans (and other races) for about 5 or 6 years. They were high output, high torque engines that were "clean running" and very fast and successful.

The technology transfer to street vehicles is straight forward. CRDI, DPF, Cats, Adblue are maligned as power robbing, fuel guzzling, expensive, fragile government interventions. They are not, IMHO. They are, given the state of the art in technology, the best we can do to produce street able, powerful, efficient, clean running vehicles for today and tomorrow.

It IS about adapting to the new technology...

Taking emissions controls off a vehicle to improve performance is a fool's errand.

At my local service centre, they are no longer required to hook up exhaust evacuation tubes while performing engine running service on late model (2010+) & diesels. Cigarette smoke & gasoline engines still trigger the detectors.

Old Crows
12-13-2013, 10:09 PM
That's amusing..... Wonder if electronic ciggies set them off?

OrioN
12-13-2013, 10:51 PM
That's amusing..... Wonder if electronic ciggies set them off?

Only menthol's... :bounce:

Trayscott
12-16-2013, 03:41 AM
I'm still amazed that you folks would take the risk of the huge monetary fines, ruin your possibilities for any sort of warranty from Mercedes Benz,
to eliminate the DPF.
If you would simply learn to drive your Sprinter correctly, use the BEST fluids available, get your Sprinter serviced at genuine
Mercedes Benz Sprinter Commercial Dealers, there would be NO valid reason to delete the DPF/EGR etc.
I can only speak from my own personal experience here.
I do all of the things I mentioned in the 2nd sentence above, and I've never had any sort of issue.
The DPF regenerates transparently, the EGR does what it's designed to do, the SCR/DEF system might need an occasional refill for $12.00 but the DEF fluid is totally available (PEAK Blue DEF 2.5 gallon kits @ Walmart for $11.96).
YMMV!
Roger

Let's be reasonable and realistic Roger, based on your list one sprinter has gone over 100,000 miles and that did not have a DPF. There are problems with them all over this forum with DPF issues as well as EGR cleaning after EGR cleaning. When the butterfly valves stick or the actuator fries its 4 grand. Many folks out here are way out of warranty anyway. Wish you or I had documentation on the vehicles where you see the boogered up intake passages etc so we knew the whole story. I suppose transmission torque convertor issues are not real either and of course the pain in the ass drive shaft issues. Oh and that pesky rust issue that effects every sprinter. Playing with mods to our vehicles is a very American thing. I hate the cummins belching out thick black smoke for fun. However I do not care to have my high mileage van have some power issue because the dpf has issues in the middle of nowhere. Somewhere diesel simplicity needs to meet decent emissions. Afraid the simplicity will never be back. I love my direct injected Hino diesels in my boat. Simple. I do like the smell or lack of smell of my sprinter. If i can do it without permanent modification I would like to do real world testing with the mods. I bet it would not be as drastic of an improvement as some claim. Some still think pulling a cat off a late model gasoline car improves horsepower. 600 horse corvette has cats. Just my 2 cents
BTW my Ryder owned sprinter has at least a half dozen entries in it's maintenance log that indicates something to do with the exhaust. Can't pin point exactly what since they suck but am still a little concerned

sailquik
12-16-2013, 04:12 AM
Trayscott,
Guess you missed my point on this subject.
Sprinter's need to be DRIVEN in a manner that keeps the exhaust system cleaned out.
It will actually keep itself clean, but you have to drive it in a manner that helps it keep itself clean.
Big on the list of problems is the use of lubricants and chemicals that do not meet the requirements of the MB BEVO list.
How does it make economic sense to put in oil that costs $4.00/Qt but does not meet the specification for use in Mercedes diesel engines vs using
arguably the very best Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP Formula M which costs me about $6.50 / Qt at the dealer.
Then you spend $600 for a new EGR or $1300 for a new DPF.
I can have my oil changed many times with the best Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP Formula M and it costs me maybe $20-$25 more per oil change. Lets see, that's $600/$25= 24 oil changes or 240,000 miles before using the best oil will cost more that saving a few $$.
Even worse if you consider the DPF @ $1300 (just a guess)....$1300/$25=52 oil changes or 520,000 miles before it might be better to use the cheap oil.
Running your OM-642 up to 3200-3600 RPMs a couple of times per day to get some flow going in the manifolds (both intake and exhaust) to flush out any accumulations will definitely not hurt anything. Might be what saves you from having EGR or swirl valve issues.
I never have had any of these issues, and that's the way I've driven all my Sprinters, including the new 2014 4 cylinder 2 stage turbo 2.143 liter OM-651.
So many Sprinter owners seem to focus on keeping the % engine Load high and the RPMs low....unfortunately driving these smaller turbo diesels this way is a recipe for issues/problems as these engines make their best power and are most efficient at mid range (2500-3000) RPMs which means you have better performance, get better mileage, have far fewer problems.
Roger

Graphite Dave
12-16-2013, 02:08 PM
Let's be reasonable and realistic Roger, based on your list one sprinter has gone over 100,000 miles and that did not have a DPF. There are problems with them all over this forum with DPF issues as well as EGR cleaning after EGR cleaning. When the butterfly valves stick or the actuator fries its 4 grand. Many folks out here are way out of warranty anyway. Wish you or I had documentation on the vehicles where you see the boogered up intake passages etc so we knew the whole story. I suppose transmission torque convertor issues are not real either and of course the pain in the ass drive shaft issues. Oh and that pesky rust issue that effects every sprinter. Playing with mods to our vehicles is a very American thing. I hate the cummins belching out thick black smoke for fun. However I do not care to have my high mileage van have some power issue because the dpf has issues in the middle of nowhere. Somewhere diesel simplicity needs to meet decent emissions. Afraid the simplicity will never be back. I love my direct injected Hino diesels in my boat. Simple. I do like the smell or lack of smell of my sprinter. If i can do it without permanent modification I would like to do real world testing with the mods. I bet it would not be as drastic of an improvement as some claim. Some still think pulling a cat off a late model gasoline car improves horsepower. 600 horse corvette has cats. Just my 2 cents
BTW my Ryder owned sprinter has at least a half dozen entries in it's maintenance log that indicates something to do with the exhaust. Can't pin point exactly what since they suck but am still a little concerned

In the past the diesel engine was better than a gas engine. Since the government has entered the diesel engine design business, the diesel is no longer a robust simple engine. The required emission hardware has increased as the years have passed which has added reliability issues and significantly reduced the miles/gallon that can be obtained. With the recent increase in diesel cost/gallon to about 50 cents/gallon more than gas in my area, the advantages of a diesel engine have been eroded. A gas engine is now a simpler engine than a diesel which results in better reliability. Just buy a gas engine van to eliminate the effects of trying to clean up an engine that produces a dirty combustion. I suspect that we will begin to see a lot more natural gas/propane powered vehicles in the future since they naturally burn clean.

gary 32
12-16-2013, 04:01 PM
Roger, I endure LA traffic daily, long idle periods and low speeds mess with stock 07 egr systems. 5AM I start it up travel 8 miles, 4pm reverse. I use the best fluids changed @ 7.5k mile intervals, your read on the Sprinter's power band and keeping it clean is spot on. This however does not work for everyone. Some of us have tuned around these quirks with exceptional mpg results, performance increases and no downside with any dealer ever.

Dennis, Have you ever seen 1 post on this forum or Sprinter in your shop with problems from an ecu tune?

Dave, how much have you spent on repairs total from new to date, excepting regular stuff and your conversion related items? I would guess not very much and most covered by warranty. What other vehicle available today checks all your boxes, weighs 9k lbs and cost as little per mile as your Sprinter?
By any measure a 2014 diesel engine is still simpler than a 2014 gas engine.
Entering 7 years mine has the lowest cost of ownership ever.

Graphite Dave
12-16-2013, 04:48 PM
Just three maintenance issues in 50,000 miles.

1. One tow required due to loose clamp on hose between the air cleaner and the turbo. Error by local shop that did not tighten after fuel filter change. Not a Mercedes caused problem unless you question the location of the fuel filter. It did require me to rent a vehicle to complete my conveyor delivery and a train ride to Fresno to pick up Sprinter. No dash lights, simply would not run over 2 miles/hr.

2. EGR failure which was replaced under warranty. This failure bothers me the most. Just prior to the Sprinter going into LHM, I was passing cars on a two lane road. Not good to reduce power in a passing situation. Might save the engine but kill people.

3. Differential pinion seal.

What makes me nervous is the thought of losing the engine, transmission or whatever. Replacement costs are not equal to the costs for high volume domestic parts.

I disagree about the costs of diesel vs. gas. Diesel makes sense if you drive lots of miles/year. If you include all the costs, the difference in operational costs of a gas engine and a diesel are not different enough to warrant dealing with all the extra emission stuff bolted onto a diesel. The current 50 cent difference in cost/gallon has changed the equation. Read http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=257967&postcount=1 Note in that comparison the difference between diesel and gas was only 28 cents/gallon. Overall operational costs are not that much different for each fuel.

Just to name a few things that can be eliminated when comparing a non-turbo gas engine to a turbo diesel. They are: swirl valves, turbo hoses, DEF, DPF, regeneration hardware, glow plugs, fuel filter. many sensors etc.

You are correct that today there is not any vehicle that covers my need. When I bought the Sprinter it was the only choice. It does look like the Ford Transit will allow me to check all the boxes when it is available. Still a lot of questions in my mind about the Ford so the jury is still out on that decision.

Trayscott
12-17-2013, 11:16 PM
Trayscott,
Guess you missed my point on this subject.
Sprinter's need to be DRIVEN in a manner that keeps the exhaust system cleaned out.
It will actually keep itself clean, but you have to drive it in a manner that helps it keep itself clean.
Big on the list of problems is the use of lubricants and chemicals that do not meet the requirements of the MB BEVO list.
How does it make economic sense to put in oil that costs $4.00/Qt but does not meet the specification for use in Mercedes diesel engines vs using
arguably the very best Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP Formula M which costs me about $6.50 / Qt at the dealer.
Then you spend $600 for a new EGR or $1300 for a new DPF.
I can have my oil changed many times with the best Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP Formula M and it costs me maybe $20-$25 more per oil change. Lets see, that's $600/$25= 24 oil changes or 240,000 miles before using the best oil will cost more that saving a few $$.
Even worse if you consider the DPF @ $1300 (just a guess)....$1300/$25=52 oil changes or 520,000 miles before it might be better to use the cheap oil.
Running your OM-642 up to 3200-3600 RPMs a couple of times per day to get some flow going in the manifolds (both intake and exhaust) to flush out any accumulations will definitely not hurt anything. Might be what saves you from having EGR or swirl valve issues.
I never have had any of these issues, and that's the way I've driven all my Sprinters, including the new 2014 4 cylinder 2 stage turbo 2.143 liter OM-651.
So many Sprinter owners seem to focus on keeping the % engine Load high and the RPMs low....unfortunately driving these smaller turbo diesels this way is a recipe for issues/problems as these engines make their best power and are most efficient at mid range (2500-3000) RPMs which means you have better performance, get better mileage, have far fewer problems.
Roger

I get your point Roger, no argument about using the right oil. I find it ridiculous that somehow we need to learn to drive to avoid a clogged up engine. All the American car bashing that has gone on in the past and so I thought how great German engineering is and I need to equip my van with a scan gauge and watch %load on the engine. Every other vehicle out there has that programmed into the ECM. So they designed it to fail if driven at lower RPM?
Don't get me wrong I love my sprinter and went in eyes wide open but deleting defective and annoying pieces in order to have a smoother experience might not be a bad idea.
Where are all these driving recommendations anyway. Also back to my point. Where are the high mileage sprinters that have shown to be ok due to these driving styles.
I know the 5 cylinder guys drove different simply due to a smaller, lower horsepower engine. My v6 pulls huge hills in 5th gear with 2000 lbs of cargo all day long at 65 mph getting about 18 or 19 mpg. No scan gauge yet for load etc. Next step

sailquik
12-17-2013, 11:32 PM
Trayscott,
Keep pulling up those grades @ 65 MPH in 5th gear (RPM will depend on the rear end ratio you have and I haven't been asked to provide your Sprinter's data card so I don't know if 65 mph in 0.83:1 overdrive is (2300 w 3.727 ratio) or (2400 w 3.916 ratio) or (2500 w 4.182 ratio 3500 w DRW and many RV's)
In any event, with a Scan Gauge II, and the ability to monitor the % engine Load, you could very quickly figure out whether you get the best mileage in 5th gear,
or manually downshifted to 4th gear.
Look at some of the past posts on the Scan Gauge II....that's where the many hours I have behind the wheel of NCV3/OM-642 V6's/NAG-1-5G-Tronics's with and without a 4,500 lb. trailer in tow and the driving techniques I've used to make ALL of those hours completely trouble free.
2300-2400 with a 2,000 lb. load in cruise control should put your % Load @ 100% for quite a significant amount of time.
The more time you spend with your Sprinter OM-642 V6 maxed out....the greater the risk.
Do you run it up to 3200-3600 a few times each day (especially after chugging along in slow stop/go traffic)?
Hope this helps,
Roger