PDA

View Full Version : Van dies will driving. Fuse 17 blown. P0003 & P0091


RomSprinta
09-25-2013, 03:18 AM
Hi all, I'm hoping to get some help with my 2006 van. Thanks in advance.

It died on a mountain pass in E WA the other day. No engine noise, or anything else that I noticed was irregular. Like I usually do, I had it in 3rd or 4th gear for crawling up a mountain pass without lugging the engine (btw, is that okay?)

Anyway, I got over to the shoulder with a little tow.
Disconnected the neg. battery terminal for a while, and then hooked it back up, but nothing. Then, by a lucky guess I found that fuse 17 was blown, so replaced it with the 15A fuse from the rear defogger to get back on the road. The ECM light came on and stayed on.

Then it happened again later that night. So I pulled more fuses from a couple less needed locations, and they kept blowing right away. No crank, no start. (the ECM light had gone off, but then it came back on again.)

Got spare fuses the next morning.
Replaced all missing fuses, and the blown # 17.
It started up again, and I let it idle a while. ECM light was still on.
Then I drove it 10 feet before it died again.
No crank, no start.
Replaced Fuse 17 again and again, it would crank and barely start but then just die.

Finally, I got it to start and be able to driver. Took it to a shop to read the codes, but first they had cleared all the codes that came up from me changing fuses and unplugging and plugging all sorts of stuff.
The mechanic drove it and was able to get it to die.
He pulled these codes: P0003 and P0091
Something to do with the regulation of fuel pressure.

Interesting discovery: if after replacing fuse 17, if I just put the key in, turn it to let the glow plug light go out and then just crank it, the fuse would blow. BUT....if after replacing #17 with a new fuse, I put the key in, let the glow plug light go out AND then wait a bit longer (maybe 20-40 seconds) it will start right up.

Knowing that it was dying because of fuel pressure, I just babied the gas pedal thru the mountains home to Seattle. It only died 2 times, once it just seemed like the engine jumped...it spiked in RPMs from below 2 to 2.5 all on its own. Seems like it could also be killed by quickly hitting the gas after putting it into gear. So, I just wait after shifting to driver or reverse before stepping on the gas.

Could this be a short? Maybe just a chaffed wire somewhere upstream of fuse 17?

Or is there something drawing more power, causing a surge, and blowing the fuse?

Could there be any serious damage going on to the engine or transmission?

The only other time(s) the ECM light comes on, the code has to do with 1 glow plug (it's either glow plug 2 or 3) not working properly 100% of the time. The light will eventually go out, usually once the engine is warm from a half day of driving.

A couple-three times this Summer it died rolling to a stop sign or red light, but after putting it in park it would start right back up. I don't think the ECM light ever came on though, but can't remember for sure. Not sure if that's related.

Thank again,
Jakob

Aqua Puttana
09-25-2013, 04:47 AM
My best advice is to call Doktor A.

Here's some threads which may give you some information and things to test. Good luck. vic


http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6534

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7911

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=51956#post51956

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1912

sailquik
09-25-2013, 06:14 AM
RomaSprinta,
Did I read this correctly......you downshift to 4th or 3rd gear and pull up the steep grades @ <2,000 RPMs?
If you were pulling a grade when the engine went from <2,000 to ~2,500 RPMs, it sounds like the transmission
simply did an auto downshift because your % engine Load was out of sight (~> 100%).
The 5th gear to 4th gear auto downshift will increase your RPM by very nearly 500 RPM.
Most of the power that your 2006 T1N Sprinter with the OM-647 2.7 Liter diesel can develop is in the 2,700-3,250 RPM range.
Get some revs on it so it can make some power and give you better efficiency and fuel mileage when heavily loaded
going up grades.
You may have over stressed something by too much % engine Load for too long a time.
And, try not to let anyone erase any codes.
What scan tool did they use.
It's always best to write down each and every code, and when it occurred and what the engine management parameters were
when the code was set.
Hope this helps,
Roger

RomSprinta
09-27-2013, 01:08 AM
okay, update: I took the van to shop in my neighborhood. I have never worked them before, and after 2 hours of diagnostics, the tech couldn't get fuse 17 to blow again, though he didn't actually drive it, which I explained to the check-in clerk clearly that it only dies while in motion.

oddly, the two codes I reported above (P0003, P0091) didn't show up on this shop's scanner.....?

The tech said that all the wiring diagrams that he found didn't match what was actually coming off of fuse 17.
Not sure if this is the best shop now....

Here are the codes that come out today:

P2822 - Undocumented code

P2152 - 002 - Starter Relay Circuit short to ground

P1615-002 - ECM voltage supply is too low

P2243-001 - no message from SKREEM

P2210-001 - SLA CAN Message missing or incorrect

P0500-004 - Wheel speed sensor plausible CAN BUS Message from ABS

P2199-002 - Fuel quantity Solenoid short to ground

P2502-002 - Fuel quantity Solenoid short to ground

P0190-001 - Fuel Pressure sensor circuit signal voltage too high

P2135-001 - Glow plug # 3 circuit short to voltage

P2133-001 - Glow plug #1 circuit short to voltage

The day or two before I took it to this shop, which is when I drove it back home and it died 2-3 times while driving.

P2135-001 - Glow plug # 3 circuit short to voltage (again)

P2527-002 - EGR valve shorted to ground

P2528-004 - EGR valve open circuit

P2199-002 - Fuel quantity Solenoid short to ground

P2502-002 - Fuel quantity Solenoid short to ground

P2152-002 - Starter Relay Circuit short to ground

P2100-002 - Fuel Pump Relay circuit shorted to ground

P1615-002 - ECM Voltage supply is too low

P2526-002 - Boost PSI Servo Motor short to ground

Thoughts? Input?
Should I go to someone with a different code reader? Maybe a German car mechanic?

I'm now $250+ in the whole for diagnostics, but no fix or solution in sight.

Frustrating to say the least.

lindenengineering
09-27-2013, 02:32 AM
Roma Sprinter
Amongst other things fuse 17 feeds the MAF sensor with 12v.
This will interrupt starting as the MAf sensor has to have a 12v feed (Mentioned above)

Also a 5v reference signal coming out of the PCM to the MAF socket must have!

A ground connected to the PCM from the MAF (must have)

And a signal output which will be variable to the PCM--So that it knows how to set the fuel map. Must have.

I see some old favorite codes like the glow plugs etc but they won't stop it from running.

I suggest you note all the codes then clear them?
Why?

Well I usually see a lot of stored codes which are ancient history simply because in its lurid past the vehicle has had faults that were not cleared properly. Using them as a reference will send you up the garden path!--and most likely up the wall!:thinking:

Now having cleared the codes check the battery and charging system including grounds.
The reason is that system voltage is very important on modern vehicles. Without adequate battery power and good charge voltage your quest to clear codes and make it run will be a waste of time. Look for around 14.2 volts when you get it running. Its a must. The Skreem system is often affected by poor system voltages.

If after all this try a start, if no joy disconnect the MAF sensor socket and try again. Often the rig will start due to the system going into a base run mode.

Try these things first and again Sailquick mentioned what are you using to read codes????
Important.
Dennis

RomSprinta
09-27-2013, 06:35 AM
Does any one have a wiring diagram for fuse #17 for a 2006 Dodge Sprinter CDI 2.7.
Also, what is the best scanner/code reader to use for this? I am concerned that the shop I took my rig to may not be getting accurate codes because of the type of scanner that they are using. I thought that they said it was an OBDII....but I will double check tomorrow after the tech gives it "another hour"....

Admittedly, I didn't bring my rig to a MB or Sprinter specialist, but to the shop 8 blocks from my home. The German Auto shop I used for basic oil changes last month (about 20 minutes across Seattle) put almost 2 extra qts. of oil in for the last oil change, which I then had then remove 165 miles later. btw, there is some leakage, but I've been checking the dipstick once the engine is hot, and I've alway kept the level above the mid-line (close to the 3/4 full).

Another question: if the van only died while I was driving it, shouldn't the shop try to test drive the rig and get it to stall out/die in motion, and not just let it idle to replicate the failure...?

I keep thinking that there's something to do with fuel pressure because of the codes the quick lube in rural E WA pulled on Monday, and if I babied the accelerator it didn't seem to die....but that may just be superstition and coincidence.

Thanks again, and I love this forum!

Aqua Puttana
09-27-2013, 12:22 PM
Does any one have a wiring diagram for fuse #17 for a 2006 Dodge Sprinter CDI 2.7.
Some wiring information is in the 8W section of the service manual. That can be downloaded from the Database section here or try here http://aie-services-2.net/Sprinter/

I thought that they said it was an OBDII....
That of itself is not a negative. That also doesn't mean it isn't Sprinter friendly. Most all the scan tools I know about for T1N models are OBDII K-line based technology. The question is whether they have the ability to get in and communicate with the specific Sprinter modules. The NCV3 models are CAN bus access, but still use the OBDII standard port.

Another question: if the van only died while I was driving it, shouldn't the shop try to test drive the rig and get it to stall out/die in motion, and not just let it idle to replicate the failure...?
After clearing the codes a test drive may help to reveal the problem if it is a rubbing harness or loose connection.

I keep thinking that there's something to do with fuel pressure because of the codes the quick lube in rural E WA pulled on Monday, and if I babied the accelerator it didn't seem to die....but that may just be superstition and coincidence.
I would expect that high side fuel pressure issues would throw related codes. There is no low side fuel pressure sensor on a OM647 engine.

Until the problems are resolved then everything is suspect, but be careful to not get tunnel vision for one scenario. It is quite easy to talk yourself into believing something that isn't really based upon the available data.

Good luck. vic

abittenbinder
09-27-2013, 02:31 PM
okay, update: I took the van to shop in my neighborhood.

oddly, the two codes I reported above (P0003, P0091) didn't show up on this shop's scanner.....?

Frustrating to say the least.

Good Grief. You contacted me, received my advice, and your public postings ignore most everything we discussed.

To recap-Your original shop's fault codes are generic OBDII codes like the freebies the local auto parts store can read with a cheap generic scanner.

The shop you have now found is providing MBenz fault codes and they are the expected codes that are generated when fuse 17 is open on a 647.

As I said in our phone conversations it's likely that any of the engine components listed in the fault codes, and more importantly their WIRING, are intermittently shorting and causing the fuse 17 overload.

BTW, The MAF sensor 12V supply voltage is not supplied by fuse 17 on a 647, only on a 612.

Please do not call me again. Your technician is welcome to do so.

Doktor A

hkpierce
09-27-2013, 03:42 PM
I guess I can't control myself, and I have gone uncontrolled on this issue before, so...

Dr. A offers diagnostic service that, in my experience and from what I have read from others, is freely offered. That time is valuable, and he really, in my opinion, should charge for it. (See http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28666 for a similar discussion on this topic.) Further, the diagnostics he gives are usually pitched to the expertise of the listener - but it can only go down to a certain level. Don't waste his time if you can't act on his advise.

I have Dr. A's phone number in my van along with print-outs of various basic repair instructions. My instructions to my wife and the Scout parents when they go on long trips and can't get me when the van misbehaves is to get to a shop and, if the shop tech needs help, then call Dr. A. He is not road-side assistance and should not be treated as such.

Dr. A is a precious, but limited, asset to the Sprinter community. Don't waste or abuse that asset.

Aqua Puttana
09-27-2013, 05:13 PM
x10

There are ways to thank him too.

A quick search here didn't reveal his home address, so I won't post that. A Google search will show you that it isn't unknown to the internet community.

His town and phone number are here.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9300

I know for a fact that Target Gift Cards are not returned. (Maybe they are intercepted by Frau Herr Doktor?)

His willingness to help is worth more than I've repaid to date, but something is better than nothing. FWIW. vic


http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=208469#post208469

vic



I guess I can't control myself, and I have gone uncontrolled on this issue before, so...

Dr. A offers diagnostic service that, in my experience and from what I have read from others, is freely offered. That time is valuable, and he really, in my opinion, should charge for it. (See http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28666 for a similar discussion on this topic.) Further, the diagnostics he gives are usually pitched to the expertise of the listener - but it can only go down to a certain level. Don't waste his time if you can't act on his advise.

I have Dr. A's phone number in my van along with print-outs of various basic repair instructions. My instructions to my wife and the Scout parents when they go on long trips and can't get me when the van misbehaves is to get to a shop and, if the shop tech needs help, then call Dr. A. He is not road-side assistance and should not be treated as such.

Dr. A is a precious, but limited, asset to the Sprinter community. Don't waste or abuse that asset.