PDA

View Full Version : Using too much oil.


Talbott594
09-17-2013, 12:18 PM
I have a 2004 Sprinter. Haven't had it long. It is using a lot of motor oil. When I was having Turbo issues the van was rolling coal and it was also going through motor oil every 75 to 100 miles. Now the turbo issue is solved,no rolling coal; but little puffs of black smoke when you pull off. It does have some white smoke when I crank it up. Lately, the oil seems to be doing better. I took the Sprinter on a 250 mile trip and before we got back, the oil light came on then went off. Got back and added about two quarts of oil. Did not know weather I am measuring the oil wrong or is there a bigger problem lurking. ie (bad valves,rings) A little help would be good before I have to take it to the Dealer.

sailquik
09-17-2013, 12:44 PM
Talbott594,
What synthetic oil are you using and what viscosity? Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula maybe?
Are you checking the oil when the engine is HOT (i.e. up to full 180 deg. operating temperature)?
Is the handle on your oil dipstick RED or Yellow?
Are you sure the oil is not leaking out rather than being burned? Is there a puddle or drips of oil where/when
you park your Sprinter under some part of the engine/front end of your Sprinter?
Hope this helps,
Roger

Aqua Puttana
09-17-2013, 01:47 PM
Some other stuff.

There is an oil separator unit on the crankcase system.

The T1N oil separator description is here.
Thanks Doktor A!! :thumbup:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5022

A similar thread to yours, but unfortunately no follow-up on resolution.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6934

"Check for air filter box obstructions, check the operation of the vacuum protection valve in the oil separator and then look for evidence of excess oil consumption elsewhere in the engine. Doktor A"

Does your crankcase show any signs of over pressure (piston issue)?

Was the turbo replaced? What testing methods were used to determine that the turbo needed to be replaced, was the problem? If replaced was a Garrett turbo used? The Sprinter Garrett turbo proper is normally very reliable and has long service life. vic

shortshort
09-17-2013, 02:44 PM
Don't add two quarts when you are a quart low (intermittent oil light).

Boater
09-17-2013, 03:11 PM
Turbo's are pretty tough, the most common way to screw them is with an oil problem, so I guess the second question is how much attention was paid to the oil system when the turbo was fixed/replaced?

The first question Roger asked at your own prompting - do you have hot (red) or cold (yellow) dipstick. If you are overfilling the oil you will be losing the excess through the crankcase breather which is connected to the air duct just before the turbo (there is always some oil vapour going through that way so expect a light oiling in the air hoses), which will of course lead to some smoking. But if you are getting the oil light coming on this can't be your only problem.

Talbott594
09-18-2013, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the input. I use the Rotella Synthetic Diesel oil 15w40 I believe. My dipstick is red. I have no oil leaks under the vehicle. The Sprinter runs good,plenty of power,very smooth. I noticed today that it does leave a light haze of white smoke, as I drive. When it was idling in the drive way, I stood behind it and it seemed to be running (idle) clean. Then it started smoking steady(idle). Then it would clear up. Seemed to change when the electric fan would come on under the hood. How do you check the Oil Mist separator?

glasseye
09-18-2013, 11:38 PM
Thanks for the input. I use the Rotella Synthetic Diesel oil 15w40 I believe.

That's the oil I use. As a point of reference, my 04 T1N with 65K miles has used zero oil (no visible change on the dipstick) since I changed it over 10K miles ago. Nearly all highway.

Talbott594
09-19-2013, 12:02 AM
After doing some more research, I believe that it may be leaky Valve Stem Seals. After reading an article and they referenced that when at idle the engine will create a high vacuum. Causing it to build up oil and then burn it off. Also, they say it will smoke (white,blueish) when it is first started. My Sprinter does that too. I will keep everyone posted on any progress. And if you have any information about Valve stem seals I would appreciate it. Thanks

sailquik
09-19-2013, 12:09 AM
Talbott594,
Well, Shell Rotella 15W-40 does not meet the requirements (as I interpret them) for your T1N Sprinter.
You need an oil that meets the MB 229.5 Specification.
The only viscosities listed on under 229.5 are 0W-30...0W-40....5W-30.....5W-40!
15W-40 Rotella is just plain wrong in my opinion!
I would change your oil and use the correct Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula full synthetic.
How do I know this oil is probably the best.....105k miles many of them towing near capacity in Midwest summer
temps from Texas to South Dakota and back to the east coast (several times) with no issues at all....no TR failures...no EGR failures....no problems with the engine/emissions/lubrication system at all.
It might help you excessive oil usage issue.
Be sure to get an OEM or MANN oil filter.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Aqua Puttana
09-19-2013, 04:05 AM
To make certain that I am in the correct mode.

"Rolling coal" = running strong and properly? WRONG!!!!

This is a NAFTA 2004 5 cylinder OM647 diesel engine which is using oil?

Per BEVO the OM647 engine can use the following spec oils of the correct viscosity. (From memory, always dangerous...)

MB228.3, MB228.5. MB229.3, MB229.5, MB229.51 and likely MB229.52 specification oils are all officially approved for the OM647 engine. (In my opinion, the MB229.51 and MB229.52 formulations are expen$ive and not needed for the OM647 engine.)

Is the "synthetic 15w-40" a typo?

Conventional Rotella diesel engine oil is 15w-40 (dino - white jug).

Synthetic Rotella T6 Full Synthetic diesel engine oil (blue jug) is 5w-40 oil. The synthetic Rotella T6 5w-40 full synthetic engine oil (blue jug) is listed as MB228.31 specification and is not recommended by Mercedes for use in the 2.7L, but many Sprinter owners do use that oil without any problem. If you are using Rotella T6 full synthetic 5w-40 diesel engine oil (blue jug) then that of itself would not cause excessive oil consumption.

If you are using Rotella conventional 15w-40 diesel engine oil (white jug) then that oil meets MB228.3 and is on the MB recommended list. Using that oil of itself would not cause excessive oil consumption.

The Sprinter OM647 diesel engine has no real history of valve stem seal failures which I am aware of. I would first pursue all the tems listed in the previous Doktor A quote.

I'm not certain of how to check the oil separator operation, but were I in your situation I would use Google and other searches to find it.

Sorry I can't offer more. vic

surlyoldbill
09-19-2013, 04:29 AM
I had all kinds of minor issues disappear when I finally went to and stayed with Mobil-1 0-40. I used the Delo400 dino oil, Shell diesel 15-40, the Rotella, and the Mobil-1 turbo diesel truck oil, and finally the 0-40. EGR stopped dripping, intake manifold cleared up of soot, engine was quieter and smoother. Spend the extra $10 on the oil change, use the Mobil-1 0-40 european car formula, $26/gallon or less at Walmart. It comes out to one one-hundredth of a dollar more more mile, a penny every ten miles, ten cents every hundred, $1 every 1000.

GaryJ
09-19-2013, 04:36 AM
"Rolling Coal" means "blowing a thick cloud of black smoke from the exhaust". Could some of that be the missing motor oil referenced in a past post?

Gary

Aqua Puttana
09-19-2013, 04:39 AM
I had all kinds of minor issues disappear when I finally went to and stayed with Mobil-1 0-40....


I use Mobil 1 0w-40 European Formula engine oil which I only buy on sale because it is so overpriced. It is good oil.

I have also used Rotella T6 Full synthetic 5w-40, and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT) 5w-40 (not MB approved for my engine). At no time when using those unapproved oils did I ever experience oil consumption issues as outlined in this thread. My Sprinter now has over 260,000 miles on the clock.

Let's give this a guy a break. His oil consumption issues are way over the top. Whether he is using, or has used Rotella or Mobil 1 has absolutely nothing to do with his higher than normal oil consumption.

:2cents: vic

shortshort
09-19-2013, 05:25 AM
http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

surlyoldbill
09-19-2013, 04:14 PM
I use Mobil 1 0w-40 European Formula engine oil which I only buy on sale because it is so overpriced. It is good oil.

I have also used Rotella T6 Full synthetic 5w-40, and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT) 5w-40 (not MB approved for my engine). At no time when using those unapproved oils did I ever experience oil consumption issues as outlined in this thread. My Sprinter now has over 260,000 miles on the clock.

Let's give this a guy a break. His oil consumption issues are way over the top. Whether he is using, or has used Rotella or Mobil 1 has absolutely nothing to do with his higher than normal oil consumption.

:2cents: vic

Yeah, his oil consumption has nothing to do with the brand/type of oil used, unless it is a cumulative effect. I was just sharing my experience for those who are curious. When you change oil every 10-15k, spending a few dollars more for gauranteed correct oil vs "probably ok" is cheap.

Talbott594
09-20-2013, 04:41 PM
Ok, putting the oil type aside..... What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear of the excess oil consumption??? Blueish white smoke when cranking,and will increase and disappear during long idle(5min) It will look clean for a little bit then blueish smoke will come out for a second or two. Also used about a quart of oil in 250 miles. Other than that, it runs good.

sailquik
09-20-2013, 05:02 PM
Talbott594
You need to have a compression test done.
If you have access to a DAD or DRB-III scan tool, and your battery is fully charged, you can do the compression test based on how fast the starter spins the engine and how consistent the cylinder pressures are.
Otherwise you would need to remove the glow plugs, get a special adapter, and a very high pressure compression gauge and determine if your piston rings are allowing a lot of "blow by", or your oil control rings are worn out.
Could also be something like the valve seals (unlikely).
My point about the oil (yeah, I know you do not want to hear this) is that use of less than the best or at least fully to specification and viscosity rating oils could have created your current situation. It won't help you at this point, but it may help others who feel that what oil they use is not so important. It's a really big deal with close tolerance engines, and the Sprinter engines are probably some of the most "close tolerance" engines ever devised.
You want to get a lot of miles from your Sprinter....using the best, most recommended fluids is the basis for long engine life.
Get a compression test to determine the condition of the rings.
Maybe have someone check to see that the seal (s) in your turbocharger aren't leaking....this would be demonstrated by lots of oil in your cool side turbo area and also in the charge air hoses, pipes and the charge air cooler itself.
If it's not leaking it out on the ground, it has to be burning it (hence your bluish white smoke).
So the only way it can get into the cylinders is through the Charge Air System, or past the piston rings.
If it's the rings, you are looking at major and very expensive repairs, or a rebuilt or used engine.
None of my Sprinters have ever needed any oil between oil changes @ 10,000 mile intervals (per the maintenance schedule and using the best fluids that my $$ can buy!
My oil consumption has always been < 1 quart per 10,000 miles.
Roger

Boater
09-20-2013, 05:37 PM
Talbott594
You need to have a compression test done.
If you have access to a DAD or DRB-III scan tool, and your battery is fully charged, you can do the compression test based on how fast the starter spins the engine and how consistent the cylinder pressures are.
Otherwise you would need to remove the glow plugs, get a special adapter, and a very high pressure compression gauge and determine if your piston rings are allowing a lot of "blow by", or your oil control rings are worn out.

You should be able to get a diesel engine compression tester with various adapters for $50, but you need to know what compression you are aiming for and what your max difference should be for the results to be useful. Note diesel engine tester - compression is about 10 times more than a gas engine and needs a different gauge.

Following a compression test, a leakdown test can be useful to help identify where compression is being lost - this is much trickier (need to identify TDC for each cylinder quite accurately) to do and to interpret, but again you should be able to get a cheap kit if your mechanical skills are up to doing it.

Burning oil could be through a number of places:
- excessive crank breathing into air ducting
- worn turbo oil seals letting it straight into air ducting
- damaged head gasket
- warped head
- cracked head
- worn piston rings (particularly oil control but any or all)

White smoke is usually steam, are you also loosing coolant? If so this would point towards head or head gasket problems, off not to find water an oil mixing if you have leaks from both to cyclinders, but not impossible.

No one thing comes to mind more readily than the others, compression test will soon enough tell you if oil can be getting into the cylinders (if too little compression) to be burned, a leakdown test will help diesel mech to suspect where and give you best quote to fix it but ultimately they won't know for sure until they get the head off.

icarus
09-20-2013, 06:35 PM
Oil analysis will give some pretty good info as well, and is no invasive.

Icarus

Talbott594
09-20-2013, 11:52 PM
Stopped by a diesel shop today and the mechanic did some basic checks. He listened to the engine, opened up the oil filler cap while engine was at idle,smelled the oil, and placed his hand over the exhaust pipe and smelled the fumes. He said nothing serious jumped out at him. But he admitted that the sprinters were harder to work on than what he was used to working on.

I did notice some oil in the hose that comes up from the Intercooler to the intake the other day.

surlyoldbill
09-21-2013, 01:16 AM
Oil in the hose to the intercooler is normal and planned.

SOME oil, not a dripping mess.

Talbott594
09-30-2013, 10:19 PM
I took the advise of DR.A and several others on the post. I changed oil to Mobile 1 0W-40. Also, checked the exhaust outlet of the Turbo and it was dry. Dr.A told me to check that to make sure I was not loosing oil from the turbo.
I have gone 200 miles and it seems to be holding steady. I put in exactly 9.5 quarts after changing the old oil and filter. The next morning I checked the oil before I cranked it. The picture that is titled Cold measurement is what I found. Then I drove it for 20 to 30 miles, parked it in the same spot let it sit for 5 minutes and checked it. The picture that is titled Hot Measurement is what I saw.

It is a red dip stick so it is supposed to be measured hot. The cold measurement is close to the top marker and the hot measurement is close to the bottom marker. I was told it would be the other way around. ???????????? Hope the pictures show up good enough.

autostaretx
10-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Just a couple of comments:
On my 2005 T1N, the oil dipstick reads about a half quart LOW when it's cold.
So, when cold it looks like i need another half-quart. When hot it looks like it's correctly filled.

Regarding valve seals/guides and "vacuum": that's a gasoline engine trait. The Sprinter diesels do not have an upstream throttle plate blocking intake air flow, so there is NOT a "high vacuum" condition when you take your foot off the pedal.

You could have a friend drive along behind you, and report on puffs (and colors) of smoke as you accelerate, drive and decelerate.
In a gas engine, white smoke is (usually) water, black smoke is too-rich (too much fuel), and blue smoke is burning engine oil.
In a diesel, the engine oil is simply "fuel", so too much fuel or burning engine oil both show up as "black".

good luck
--dick