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montana
08-20-2013, 12:26 AM
I have a 06 sprinter It will run great for about 8 miles and if you even think about pressing on the throttle at all it will die... It will start right up every time most time it will go into limp mode . It usually throws the code to high rail pressure sometimes to low pressure.... my mechanic thought it was the fuel regulator the one on the end of the common rail so put in a new common rail did not help at all... now he thinks it might be the fuel regulator on the high pressure pump... he was told you can not get the regulator separate I found one on line for just the regulator so not too sure...? It would die while backing up if you had to give it much fuel at all.. for a long time then just lately would die while driving down the road after it warms up... my mechanic doesn't have the proper software to look at all the things he would like and he isn't really a part thrower (keep throwing part at it tell it gets better) It has been at the shop for over a month ( got stolen so the mechanic cold not work on it tell cops released ) any help would greatly apeciate thanks Dan

riskydnb
08-20-2013, 04:22 AM
id start with a fuel filter, I have them for sale for $25 shipped Hengst OEM manufacturer.

montana
08-21-2013, 12:08 AM
id start with a fuel filter, I have them for sale for $25 shipped Hengst OEM manufacturer.

all ready replaced definitely not the fuel filter...anybody with some more advice?

JAM
08-21-2013, 12:21 AM
dont mean this in a rude way but I would find a new mech. He's gonna run your pockets dry just guessing whats wrong. Get with Dr A. (Andy) on here. He is a great guy and will help you out.

JAM
08-21-2013, 12:22 AM
where are you located? Maybe someone near you has a dad and can get it scanned for you.

lindenengineering
08-21-2013, 02:34 AM
To determine if its the regulator at fault you need a scanner--a good scanner with live date like a Snap on Solus Pro.

Scoot the beast up the road observing the rail pressure with the scanner connected on data . At idle, it will hover about 5000 psi with a volume control of about 37 to 42.

Get on it and you will see the pressure rise and oscillate due to throttle variation to around 17,00 psi, all the time the scan program will be telling you the desired pressure for the reader to compare.
Really get on it with your foot on the pedal and you will see the pressure rise to around 21,000 psi.

Now looking carefully you will see the desired pressure suddenly throw a -ve in front of the desired program figure, THEN the actual will immediately show the same negative in front of the actual before it regulates the rail pressure

That tells you the regulator is responding to commands and regulating the rail pressure.
If the actual doesn't throw a negative and stays for too long at the now unregulated rail pressure the system will detect it and invoke a limp mode.
There can be other issues like a defective injector causing a misfire and pressure spike but the readings will be different so will be the fault codes.
This is upper most in my mind, because I fixed one just like it yesterday--well I didn't, my guys threw a rail at it! I just did he diagnosis work--benes of being the boss!
Job in and out in 1,5 hours
Dennis

montana
08-21-2013, 05:35 AM
To determine if its the regulator at fault you need a scanner--a good scanner with live date like a Snap on Solus Pro.

Scoot the beast up the road observing the rail pressure with the scanner connected on data . At idle, it will hover about 5000 psi with a volume control of about 37 to 42.

Get on it and you will see the pressure rise and oscillate due to throttle variation to around 17,00 psi, all the time the scan program will be telling you the desired pressure for the reader to compare.
Really get on it with your foot on the pedal and you will see the pressure rise to around 21,000 psi.

Now looking carefully you will see the desired pressure suddenly throw a -ve in front of the desired program figure, THEN the actual will immediately show the same negative in front of the actual before it regulates the rail pressure

That tells you the regulator is responding to commands and regulating the rail pressure.
If the actual doesn't throw a negative and stays for too long at the now unregulated rail pressure the system will detect it and invoke a limp mode.
There can be other issues like a defective injector causing a misfire and pressure spike but the readings will be different so will be the fault codes.
This is upper most in my mind, because I fixed one just like it yesterday--well I didn't, my guys threw a rail at it! I just did he diagnosis work--benes of being the boss!
Job in and out in 1,5 hours
Dennis

thanks He works on my semi at does great work . his problem is his software is not the greatest and can't read all the stuff he needs to know he was going to cheack with another guy that he thought might have the correct software that give him what he needs I will print this off and share with him...

SO do you think it could be the high pressure pump regulator and can a person just replace that part of it is bad do you have to replace the complete high pressure pump thanks Dan

lindenengineering
08-21-2013, 02:40 PM
Dan
The Snap On product I mentioned is commonplace in shops who may have a Dodge program that's why I mentioned this tool because of its prevalence. The owner of this sool mist have the Euro cable socket and keys S17 & S20 to gain access to the Sprinter info.

The circumstances I described in my last post are pertaining go the sensors located on the end of the rail; notably the pressure transducer reading the rail pressure and the pressure regulator which is doing the bidding of commands to regulate the developed pressure.
Either of these components could be at fault either (a) the regulator is not re-acting to the command. or (b) the pressuer sensor is not properly communicating the state of change in the rail. Either situations will cause a limp mode.

In simple terms the PCM sets the command, the pressure regulator regulates it, the PCM asks "did you change the pressure?" the transducer says "yes I did", but sometime the PCM doesn't see the change and says "hey you are lying to me I am going to shut you down until you stop lying to me about whats going on!
Limp mode!
Dennis

montana
08-21-2013, 02:50 PM
Dan
The Snap On product I mentioned is commonplace in shops who may have a Dodge program that's why I mentioned this tool because of its prevalence. The owner of this sool mist have the Euro cable socket and keys S17 & S20 to gain access to the Sprinter info.

The circumstances I described in my last post are pertaining go the sensors located on the end of the rail; notably the pressure transducer reading the rail pressure and the pressure regulator which is doing the bidding of commands to regulate the developed pressure.
Either of these components could be at fault either (a) the regulator is not re-acting to the command. or (b) the pressuer sensor is not properly communicating the state of change in the rail. Either situations will cause a limp mode.

In simple terms the PCM sets the command, the pressure regulator regulates it, the PCM asks "did you change the pressure?" the transducer says "yes I did", but sometime the PCM doesn't see the change and says "hey you are lying to me I am going to shut you down until you stop lying to me about whats going on!
Limp mode!
Dennis
Thanks so much I will print this off and share it with him . we did replace the complete common rail. so I am totaly guesing that it has to be either the ecm or the regulator at the high pressure pump? thanks again

Aqua Puttana
08-21-2013, 02:53 PM
Before you consider just replacing the fuel pressure regulation solenoid be aware that on the 2006 OM647 engine it comes integral with the fuel rail. The solenoid part cannot be removed and re-installed. Once removed you will need to replace the fuel rail assembly. $$$
Oops. Slow typist. You replaced the rail already.

As an aside, the OM612 engine 2001 - 2003 part is replaceable as well as the seals.

The fuel pump pressure regulator is relatively easy to replace. If you do an advanced search from the blue bar using Turbojohn as member you will find that he did an excellent write-up for the R&R.

All that said, you really need to verify what the pressures are as Dennis suggests before just throwing parts at it. Good luck. vic

montana
08-21-2013, 06:04 PM
Thanks so much showed my mechanic and he was very receptive and thankful he ended up having the correct software but is was jacked up so I think snap on or who ever was sending him some stuff to fix the software glitch

mercadeze benz was telling him that the high pressure pump fuel regulator you could not replace it seperatly if it was bad you need to replace the whole high pressure pump?? he didn't want to order anything more until he got better info thanks again

montana
10-23-2013, 04:38 AM
Well after 3 months I finally have it back and running great..first replaced common rail then replaced high pressure pump ..even though I first told him that I thought it might be injectors ... two bad injectors.... He did ask me to ask on here if anyone knows how critical it is to tune the new injectors . they were supposedly set up correctly an all but he said you are supposedly supost to tune them .. and his fine 35K machine will recognize them but can not talk to them... After having the sprinter gone for thee months I forgot how much I missed it I had been driving my 2012 ford 350 diesel crew with every option but I just love my sprinter .. I own a pet crematorium and cemetery I even pickup up a couple horses with it ... ( or normal horse hauler was busy) .. thanks to all

Aqua Puttana
10-23-2013, 05:12 AM
Glad to hear that you are up and running.

... they were supposedly set up correctly an all but he said you are supposedly supost to tune them .. and his fine 35K machine will recognize them but can not talk to them... thanks to all
I haven't heard it referred to as "tuned", but I suppose that fits. A more common term is "coded".

My take on injector coding.

The injectors are not able to be manufactured to strict standards. The size of the "squirt" can vary. The injectors are tested and assigned a number code which relates to the "squirt" quantity.

When a new injector is installed then the specific injector code number can be submitted to the ECM (engine computer) so the injection quantity is a known value to the computer.

The ECM constantly monitors the engine operation which includes varying the injector "squirts" based upon feedback.

I replaced all 5 injectors in my 2004 with Bosch factory reconditioned injectors. As happened to your mechanic, I was unable to get the ECM to accept the new injector codes with my DAD. I never did code my injectors. My engine has been running fine for many tens of thousand miles.

My opinion.

The injector coding helps the ECM to trim in the fuel quantity more quickly after new injectors are installed. Because the ECM is constantly monitoring and adjusting the injected quantities based upon feedback, my theory is that eventually the ECM gets the injected quantity trimmed in whether the new injectors were coded or not. I stopped worrying about it quite quickly for my engine although I would have preferred to code my injectors.

All that said, I readily defer to any professional Sprinter technicians who disagree.

The following documentation should help to support my ideas above. vic

55165

Particularly note the first sentence below:
The ECM compensates for both injector variations due to production tolerances as well as due to injector wear over the life of the injector.


55161


55162


55163

20140522 edit: Given the 3200 RPM comment above, it may be more critical for injector coding if you often operate above that engine speed. I typically do not. On the other hand, above 3200 RPM a bit of difference in injector balance may just not be that critical as all the fuel injected will be burned efficiently.

55164

Aqua Puttana
10-23-2013, 05:13 AM
Documentation Continued

55158

55159

There's alot of stuff going on under the hood as we ramble down the highway.

:2cents:

skydiver007
06-12-2014, 08:53 PM
This is an older thread but was referenced in a recent post.

FWIW I disagree with the above. I own a DRB and have done testing on the above and coding (I have an 05) is important.

I had to replace an ECM module and the Dodge dealership charged me to recode the injectors. Those jerks only coded one. I drove it a while with none of them coded and I pay attention to the idle and running of the engine very closely and it just didn't sound right and the mileage was down.

I hooked up the DRB and coded all 5 in and it made an immediate difference in the sound and smoothness and the mileage was back.

Why would that be an option on the DRB and not be necessary. I recommend you always code them in.

The way I understand it is that every injector has a little bit of difference in flow. The code is a correction factor that the ECM uses to normalize or compensate for differences in the injectors. If you don't code them, the ECM doesn't know this difference and may or may not compensate differently. The engine does run, just not as smooth and mileage suffers.

Aqua Puttana
06-13-2014, 01:58 AM
This is an older thread but was referenced in a recent post.

FWIW I disagree with the above. I own a DRB and have done testing on the above and coding (I have an 05) is important.
I can't dispute what you claim. My posts are based upon the information which I have included and referenced, and my experience with one vehicle. Your experience appears to be with one vehicle also.

I didn't change my ECM. I did replace all injectors with rebuilt Bosch OEM parts. As my provided literature indicates, the Bosch ECM does adapt to engine operation. Perhaps my ECM had already compensated for differences in my engine tolerances/operation so the replaced injectors were within a range that it could easily deal with. Perhaps your new ECM had yet more learning to do? Coding may be more critical when introducing both a new ECM and new injectors as you did. I don't know the answers to that. :idunno:

The engine does run, just not as smooth and mileage suffers.
My engine never ran rough, nor does it now. I'm not a mileage checking all the time type of guy, but my mileage seems to have remained the same. I will admit that I have never seen the great fuel economy some have claimed here in Sprinter-source, but I figure that may more be my driving style. I pretty much let the ECM and TCM do their thing unless I'm towing my boat.

Both of us are basing things pretty much on our experience with the Sprinter we own. From my side I don't claim that to be a proper experiment so everyone should do with my opinions what they will.

:cheers: vic

Added for Edit below:

The bosch factory trim is only +/- 3% on flow based on the "master" injector. It does not even have a trim for solenoid response variance (time from energizing solenoid to flow nozzle needle opening). Many other fuel injector manufacturers use the second trim.

The fuel balancing in ecm compensates flow +/- about 7%. It should hide a classification mismatch no problem. ...
Thanks for the details and percentages. :thumbup:

That is good to know. vic

P.S. - I would have just clicked the "Thanks", but I didn't want it to appear that I was just thanking you for support of my theory, and not thanking you for your percentage details and insight.

Edit
It was critical on my 05. It ran like **** when the injectors weren't coded. In the pictures you show the code is AAPT75.

Try coding one at a time. All 5 did not work with a DRB or DAD. One at a time worked fine on the DRBIII
In another thread it was revealed that Skydiver007 changed his injectors AND the ECM at the same time. That may be a factor in how critical the injector classification is. I swapped out 5 injectors with no ECM change or classification with everything running just fine. Maybe my ECM had already compensated for my particular engine so the new injectors were in range. Or maybe I was just lucky. :idunno: