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JAM
08-17-2013, 02:50 PM
My t1n has been acting funny the last couple weeks. When I go to start it sometimes it just gets 1 click. Sometimes I can get it going after a few tries. I got stranded at the drive thru window last night lol. Put a jump on it and it started. This morning it started fine. I started it twice to check it out and the 3rd time no luck. Just a click. Battery voltage is at 12.6 not running and 14.4 running. Could it be the starter solenoid?

autostaretx
08-17-2013, 03:45 PM
It could be: (in no particular order)
(a) loose battery terminals (battery voltage checks fine, but current draw through bad connection is limited)
(b) bad starter solenoid (if the "click" is under the hood)(cylinder mounted on side of starter)
(c) bad starter relay (inside cab, it's pulling in but not really making contact)
(d) loose connection at starter solenoid
(e) bad starter (one segment of commutator damaged)
(f) worn brushes in starter
(g) bad wiring between starter relay (in cab) and starter solenoid (on starter)
(h) damaged strands in cable from battery to starter
(i) frayed-away engine ground strap... (no longer) providing current path from engine to body frame
(j) bad "start" contacts in ignition switch
(k) bad battery: have it "load tested" (or simply measure the voltage with the headlights on... is it still 12.6?)
(l) battery low on water in one or more cells

((you'll notice that some of those (low water, loose connections) are very cheap to fix))

..just for starters...
--dick

JAM
08-17-2013, 05:57 PM
Thanks I will check the following.

JAM
08-18-2013, 09:14 PM
ok took old starter out and had it tested. Also had battery tested. Both good. Connections look good.
The van starts with a jump. Why is that? Could it be starter relay or maybe cps sensor? fyi, no autoparts store had any relays so I guess I will go to the dealer tomorrow. Also even tho the starter tested good on a bench test, can it still be bad? I have one coming tomorrow and might just throw it in for the heck of it.

JAM
08-18-2013, 09:46 PM
ok I was reading through some other post about the same issue and came across wires by the ac cooling fan so I went outside, moved some wires in front of the fan and wahlah. it starts. Tried it 5 times and starts like normal. So if anyone encounters these same problems be sure to check those wires. Ill keep trying it to make sure but hopefully thats it.

bankodave
08-18-2013, 09:48 PM
ok took old starter out and had it tested. Also had battery tested. Both good. Connections look good.
The van starts with a jump. Why is that? Could it be starter relay or maybe cps sensor? fyi, no autoparts store had any relays so I guess I will go to the dealer tomorrow. Also even tho the starter tested good on a bench test, can it still be bad? I have one coming tomorrow and might just throw it in for the heck of it.

You seem to be having the same problem I am having with my 2003 T1N. Mine however will no longer start with a jump. I checked the same things you checked and still can not track down the issue. I was able to find a replacement starter relay at CarQuest. The part number is 56-1608 and it was $13.80. I was tempted to buy a new starter even though mine checked out fine on the bench test but decided not to.

When I find out what is causing this I will post it ASAP.

Dave

JAM
08-18-2013, 11:22 PM
You seem to be having the same problem I am having with my 2003 T1N. Mine however will no longer start with a jump. I checked the same things you checked and still can not track down the issue. I was able to find a replacement starter relay at CarQuest. The part number is 56-1608 and it was $13.80. I was tempted to buy a new starter even though mine checked out fine on the bench test but decided not to.

When I find out what is causing this I will post it ASAP.

Dave

Thanks Dave please do. I thought it was the wires in front of the fan but nope i tried a few times and same thing. I will install the new starter tomorrow and let you know also. Good luck bud.

bankodave
08-18-2013, 11:35 PM
Well I decided to hook the battery up to the trickle charger to get it fully charged again and then went on a run to clear my head. When I got back I tried to start it again and it actually turned over once. I decided at that point to go ahead and get a new battery even though the one in the van was tested last week and was fine. After putting in the new battery it cranked up like nothing was ever wrong. I took the old battery back to have it tested again and it was toast---only 530 cranking amps out of 760. The new battery has 900 cranking amps. The other good news is that I showed them the date on the old battery (8/2011) and they ended up giving me a full refund on the one I just purchased.

At this point I am going to disconnect the battery overnight until I track down the parasitic drain.

I hope you have the same result.

Dave

JAM
08-19-2013, 12:58 PM
I had my battery tested and they said it was fine. Its less than a year old and its the agm type. I just started mine about 8 times today and it started fine. Im thinking the starter is getting stuck periodically.
Have you had your alternator tested? I had troubles with my old alternators last year and actually went through 3 bad ones. All of them were remans. I finally bought a bosch and my problems went away. Also the 3rd bad one they gave me did not have the clutch on it and it destroyed my belt and pulleys.

bankodave
08-19-2013, 11:50 PM
I had the alternator tested in the car when I had my battery tested last week. Both checked out fine. My next step is to check if the alternator is the source of the parasitic drain. I have to first get a multimeter that can handle up to 20 amps.

Dave

JAM
08-20-2013, 12:19 AM
well put new starter in and no go. Im going crazy over this. Why does it start with a jump but not on its own? Anyone got the doc's number?

autostaretx
08-20-2013, 05:32 AM
well put new starter in and no go. Im going crazy over this. Why does it start with a jump but not on its own? Anyone got the doc's number?

The Doktor A Sprinter Hotline is 412-366-6165. Andy (Dr. A) Bittenbinder

--dick

bankodave
08-20-2013, 09:53 AM
Is it possible that something is up with the ignition switch?

Dave

JAM
08-20-2013, 10:05 AM
Is it possible that something is up with the ignition switch?

Dave

idk im wondering the same thing

Aqua Puttana
08-20-2013, 01:23 PM
... Why does it start with a jump but not on its own? ...
That sounds very familiar to me. Usually it tracks to a bad heavy cable or connections. A visual inspection doesn't always reveal a high(er) resistance connection or cable problem.

There are some threads here which outlined a testing procedure using a voltmeter to test for voltage drop under load. Maybe the post about cables in the NCV3 Cheap Tricks thread will get you there. Good luck. vic

surlyoldbill
08-20-2013, 02:28 PM
Has anyone checked the engine ground cable?

Just for giggles, attach a jumper cable from the battery ground to the engine block and try it.

bubbaphil
08-20-2013, 07:20 PM
Well I decided to hook the battery up to the trickle charger to get it fully charged again and then went on a run to clear my head. When I got back I tried to start it again and it actually turned over once. I decided at that point to go ahead and get a new battery even though the one in the van was tested last week and was fine. After putting in the new battery it cranked up like nothing was ever wrong. I took the old battery back to have it tested again and it was toast---only 530 cranking amps out of 760. The new battery has 900 cranking amps. The other good news is that I showed them the date on the old battery (8/2011) and they ended up giving me a full refund on the one I just purchased.

At this point I am going to disconnect the battery overnight until I track down the parasitic drain.

I hope you have the same result.

Dave


Re: Parasitic drain; A friend told me about a product called BATTERY BRAIN[B] I bought mine on Ebay several years ago. It goes on the positive side of the battery and will disconnect the battery when the voltage drops below cranking level. With the push of a button the connection is restored. It also act as a thief deterrent because the van won't crank till you push the button. Did it solve my starting problems, no, but that seems to be a world wide mystery in sprinters from 2003 to 2012

JAM
08-20-2013, 09:25 PM
ok heres the latest news on my starting issue and Im sure a lot of you have the same problem. I got it narrowed down to 2 things.
1. bad ground strap from motor to frame. Replaced
2. bad ecm relay or ecu or ecm module.
The van will start if I tap the ecm relay very lightly. I notice when the key is in the on position and the ac fan kicks on I know it will not crank so I just give it a tiny tap on the relay and it starts.
Now I tried pulling fuse block 1 under the steering wheel to check the pin connections but got scared and didnt wanna mess anything up. I read a lot of post's on here that were related to my issue and came across sending the ecm to sos. Should I do this or should I just buy a brand new fuse block and see if that works? Seems like members are saying they are like $100 to $150 for the new fuse block.

sailquik
08-20-2013, 10:53 PM
JAM,
AND.....
the new "under the steering column" fuse block comes as a complete unit with all new fuses and relays (or so I've heard).
There is a retainer bolt that is sometimes difficult to get out (the cast in nut rotates in the plastic I think I heard) but other
than that, it's pretty much "plug and play" and you get the new starting relay as part of the package.
Suggest the new fuse block as your next purchase/attempt to fix.
Roger

JAM
08-21-2013, 12:16 AM
JAM,
AND.....
the new "under the steering column" fuse block comes as a complete unit with all new fuses and relays (or so I've heard).
There is a retainer bolt that is sometimes difficult to get out (the cast in nut rotates in the plastic I think I heard) but other
than that, it's pretty much "plug and play" and you get the new starting relay as part of the package.
Suggest the new fuse block as your next purchase/attempt to fix.
Roger

Yep thanks. Got one on order and will be in Thursday. I will post up results as soon as its done.
If this is the problem, why did it occur? Maybe cause my ground strap from motor to frame was shot causing voltage drop and messing with the ecm or relay?
I think after this thing is fixed Im gonna sell it and look into the new dodge commercial van or the new Ford transit commercial line. Anyone read up on any of those? I know Fords wont be out till next year but the Dodge is suppose to be here next month.

JAM
08-21-2013, 12:18 AM
And also wanted to give a big thank you to Andy aka Dr. A for taking the time out of his busy day to return my call and giving me some pointers. Not many people will do that in this day and time.

Aqua Puttana
08-21-2013, 12:43 AM
JAM,
AND.....
the new "under the steering column" fuse block comes as a complete unit with all new fuses and relays (or so I've heard).
It comes complete with fuses and relays which does make it a bit better deal than a bare fuse block.

There is a retainer bolt that is sometimes difficult to get out (the cast in nut rotates in the plastic I think I heard) but other
than that, it's pretty much "plug and play"
One bolt removal idea is here. Thanks goes to Ollie.:thumbup:
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=239173#post239173


and you get the new starting relay as part of the package.
...Roger
The 3 relays that come with it are the Turnsignal Relay, Engine Control Relay, and Wiper ON/OFF relay. The starter relay is located in the driver seat fuse/relay block under the driver seat.

I do agree that at the price, for what it gives you, replacing the FB #1 before going to a dealership is worth a shot.

A bad ground cable could cause intermittent start problems and could route high ground current to places it is not supposed to be.

And also wanted to give a big thank you to Andy aka Dr. A for taking the time out of his busy day to return my call and giving me some pointers. Not many people will do that in this day and time.
Let us know what you find.
vic

JAM
09-02-2013, 01:59 PM
Ok finally got around to replacing the fb#1. No go:bash:
When the van dont start or turn over I notice the ac fan runs and when I tap the ecm relay under the steering wheel the fan shuts off and the van will start. Could this have anything to do with the sensor that operates the fan?

Aqua Puttana
09-02-2013, 02:04 PM
The fan is a symptom

You need to understand that the aux cooling fan combined with no starter action is your best diagnostic clue.

The aux fan is triggered not only by A/C refrigerant pressure but also by high coolant temps.

This fan is activated by the HVAC module which receives coolant temp info from the Engine Control Module via the CAN com network.

If this fan turns on when you switch on the ignition AND the engine starter will not activate with a turn of the key- then the HVAC module is not receiving coolant temp which results in a worst case temp substitution and the aux fan is activated to 'save' the engine.

No coolant temp from ECM can be due to faults in the com network or a ECM which is not powered up or less likely, a faulty ECM.

Power and grounds to ECM can be checked with pin-out info at the body plug of the ECM. Com issues can be checked by using wiring diagram and CAN resistance values.

Most likely cause in most cases is power issue to ECM which trace back to the fuse/relay panel under the steering column or ground issues which trace to the body connection stud.

Doktor A

... Could this have anything to do with the sensor that operates the fan?

Stop fixating on engine coolant and ambient temps. These are not your problem.

The important issue here is the aux fan is running AT THE SAME TIME your starter is not operating.

This indicates that the engine module is either not powered up OR not communicating with its neighbors (or less likely, is defective) when you experience these 2 combined symptoms.

Have someone test the 3 ECM 12V inputs and the 3 grounds when this occurs. This will indicate if the module is powered during the start attempt.

If it's not powering up, find the reason why. If power circuits and grounds are fine have a competent technician check the CAN bus for issues. If that's fine you may need to have the ECM tested and replaced.

Doktor A

:2cents: vic

JAM
09-02-2013, 02:42 PM
thanks vic, I been reading this post by andy.

Aqua Puttana
09-02-2013, 03:23 PM
thanks vic, I been reading this post by andy.
Have you tried removing and re-installing the C1 and C2 connectors? Sometimes that will wipe the contacts and provide better conduction.

Some OM647 info which may help. I added some notes for the fine print.

54329

54330

54331

54332

vic

Aqua Puttana
09-02-2013, 04:33 PM
Have you tried removing and re-installing the C1 and C2 connectors? Sometimes that will wipe the contacts and provide better conduction.

...
vic
Some additional info that may help to R&R and check the connector signals.


Your 647 ECM has 2 connectors. The 96 pin connector marked with a big M is the engine harness connector. The 56 58 pin connector marked with a big F is the vehicle wiring harness connector.

Which one are you having problems with? And kindly explain why the terminals are "coming loose- has someone disassembled it and added pins for optional accessories? Doktor A

I'm familiar with this particular case and the owner of the Sprinter. The dealer was replacing components that were suspected of leaking fuel into the wiring harness.

The vehicle was a '05 and the culprit turned out to be a defective WIF (water in fuel) sensor. The relatively low 65psi feed pump pressure was forcing the fuel into the engine harness via the leaking sensor and contaminating modules and servos. Not quite "corrosion" but definitely destructive.

It was not an isolated case-I recall a national run on the supply of 647 engine wiring harnesses as a result of what was likely a batch of defective WIF sensors. Doktor A

There is a step by step ECM (aka ECU) connector removal outlined by a member somewhere. The person claimed that there was slight difference as to what the book I have indicated. So far I have not located that post.

The book info on connector removal is here.

OEM Cruise Control install retrofit upgrade add
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=117175#post117175

ECU Removal
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20308

A method of connector separation should it be necessary
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=122820#post122820

vic

JAM
09-02-2013, 08:40 PM
Thank you for the schematic. I tried getting the connectors off but no luck. I cant afford to screw something up cause I have to use my van tomorrow for work. I did however rip apart the front end and removed the aux fan just for the heck of it. I also tried wiggling the wire loom that runs under the radiator. After that happened my van would not run with the majic tap trick. I had to jump it. So I was doing some more checks and ran across my starter relay in fuse block 2 and it was pretty warm. I have a spare from an old ford truck, swapped it in and it started fine like 3 times then just the click. Well I turned the key on and off a few times and got it to start again. This problem is driving me crazy. Im going to have to buy a back up van to keep my business running and then off to the dealer I guess. I been searching for a 07 and up sprinter but can not find one in my price range. I guess I'll have to settle for a normal gmc or Ford cargo van for the meantime.

JAM
09-04-2013, 09:38 PM
ok heres a little update I been having. If I dont run the ac the van starts fine everytime. Soon as I used the ac today I was having the start issues and cant get it to start unless I give it a jump. That stupid aux fan is causing all this havoc. What tells that fan to turn on? ecm?

JAM
09-05-2013, 08:24 PM
So I got my van scanned today from a very knowledgeable person/mechanic. No it wasnt Dr A lol. Came up with quite a few that dont really make sense to me as to why my van is having the no start issue. Can anyone make sense of these codes? Alot of them kept coming up with can not communicate with ecm.


http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/jamstoyz/sprintercodes1001_zpsc94ecb4d.jpg (http://s267.photobucket.com/user/jamstoyz/media/sprintercodes1001_zpsc94ecb4d.jpg.html)

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/jamstoyz/sprintercodes2001_zpsb66b2a0e.jpg (http://s267.photobucket.com/user/jamstoyz/media/sprintercodes2001_zpsb66b2a0e.jpg.html)

JAM
10-25-2013, 12:51 PM
I finally took my t1n in to the dealer Wednesday. There thinking it's the ecm but there not exactly sure. I will let everyone know the outcome once and if it gets figured out.

Aqua Puttana
10-25-2013, 01:42 PM
55224

55225


... Came up with quite a few that dont really make sense to me as to why my van is having the no start issue. Can anyone make sense of these codes? Alot of them kept coming up with can not communicate with ecm.

...
I'm not knowledgeable enough to go through the DTC's (codes) you posted one by one. I think that I do have some insight though.

Fairly recently I know that I had a wheel speed sensor issue which was directly related to tone ring distortion. Using my DAD I got a couple of DTC's which were clearly related to the left wheel speed. There were also a bunch of DTC's which related to CAN communication.

What I learned.

The modules talk to each other, but it isn't always clear communication. As an example only, the TCM Transmission Control Module knew that the left wheel sensor was the problem. Other modules recognized that the CAN communication was not within range (plausibility DTC's) and reacted by disabling the safety systems, but they didn't necessarily know what parts were at fault. Via CAN they just knew that something was amiss.

So, in a case like yours there can be many DTC's because the modules see that something is wrong, but not all of them are directly related to the actual culprit. That is one reason why it is so difficault to troubleshoot problems like yours. The computer provides more feedback and raw data than we once got from older, less complicated vehicles, but it still takes a good troubleshooter to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Here's some detail on my wheel speed issue for those who might be interested.
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=260696#post260696

Replacing the ECM may cure the problems, but that could just be because the R&R removal and re-installation moved a faulty wire harness or restored a bad connection.

Sorry I can't offer more. vic

P.S. - The aux electric cooling fan running is a SYMPTOM not a cause. When the fan control loses information it assumes that the engine is hot and defaults to fan running. ECM related CAN communication problems will trigger that response most every time.

JAM
10-25-2013, 02:04 PM
Great info and really weird that speed sensors can do that to the ecm or can bus. I will let the mech know about that if he cant figure it out. That would be great if that was the issue. The only dummy light I remember coming on and off when this started happening was the low coolant level light. That was about a week after I got an oil change. It would come on in the morning for like 10 seconds then shut off. Sometimes going around corners too. I took it back to the oil change place and had the coolant topped off. They said it wasnt low but I remember reading these things are finicy on fluid levels. After the top off it never came back on.
When the van doesnt start and aux fan running the abs and esr light I think does stay on along with the glow plug light not shutting off.

Aqua Puttana
10-25-2013, 03:03 PM
No, no. I'm not suggesting that a wheel sensor issue could be your problem. That was an example only. What I'm saying is that you may get a flood of DTC's and symptoms that are all related only in general to the actual problem. The challenge is sifting through them all and figuring out what the root cause is.

Was your coolant level actually low? If it wasn't, then that light coming on would cause me to carefully check any harnesses associated with that circuit. A short or other problem in the CAN bus anywhere can affect communication everywhere. If the coolant level was indeed low, then the sensor was just doing its job and is likely unrelated to your problem.

vic

Great info and really weird that speed sensors can do that to the ecm or can bus. I will let the mech know about that if he cant figure it out. That would be great if that was the issue. The only dummy light I remember coming on and off when this started happening was the low coolant level light. That was about a week after I got an oil change. It would come on in the morning for like 10 seconds then shut off. Sometimes going around corners too. I took it back to the oil change place and had the coolant topped off. They said it wasnt low but I remember reading these things are finicy on fluid levels. After the top off it never came back on.
When the van doesnt start and aux fan running the abs and esr light I think does stay on along with the glow plug light not shutting off.

JAM
10-25-2013, 03:50 PM
Oh I get it now Vic lol. They didn't say it was low but he topped it off. The dealer called me a bit ago and couldn't find the problem. They said it started fine this morning and couldn't get it to simulate the no crank no start. They did say there was some relays and connectors with corrosion tho. I'm going to pick it up in a bit and I'm gonna talk with the mech so I'll let you guys know the outcome.

JAM
10-25-2013, 06:42 PM
Well got it back and wasted $200 for them to tell me things I already knew lol. What now?

Aqua Puttana
10-25-2013, 07:02 PM
... What now?
It starts and runs?

:hmmm:

Road trip to Pittsburg to see the Doktor.

:thumbup:

vic

JAM
10-25-2013, 11:08 PM
I would love to Vic. Or I could take the $4500 bucks they offered me on trade and get the new promaster lol. $4500 really. Don't know where they got that number from.

JAM
11-11-2013, 09:36 PM
Well I have the option of buying a new promaster and let my t1n rot a while or I'm gonna drop it off at another sprinter mech tomorrow. This mechanic place deals with big buses and sprinters. Hope he knows what he's doing and finds my problem cause I really don't feel like choking a 425 dollar payment down right now. I'll post the outcome in a few days hopefully. Wish me luck

JAM
11-14-2013, 07:03 PM
Strike 2. This second mechanic couldn't figure out the problem either but he also couldn't get it to act up. Also it didn't show any codes on the scanner. He uses the mercedes one too. He wants to believe it has something to do with fuse box 1 under the steering wheel but I told him it's brand new. Could it be possible the new one could be bad?

NelsonSprinter
11-15-2013, 07:40 PM
!1. Look carefully at the AC wires you touched when it worked again for a worn insulation.
!2. Look at the wire connection to the starter for corrosion. Bad grounding?
If nothing wrong with wires, I strongly suggest sending ECU to SOS diagnostics Oregon, they have solved CAN communications issues before with a re-programming

JAM
11-15-2013, 10:08 PM
Thanks. It probably is the ecm and I'm trying to rule out other things before I send it cause that's a lot of downtime without my van. They will send me a loaner but that's another $200 to rent for 30 days. I guess $200 is better than losing a grand per day in labor tho lol.