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Suba
02-24-2008, 02:11 AM
I'm wondering if anyone is using pure nitrogen in their tires. I've got pure nitrogen in mine. Ok, I know one atmosphere of regular air still exists in each tire. My opinion is that nitrogen makes all the difference in the world with ride quality. The ride is softer and not harsh at all. Keep in mine I have 80 psi in all four tires. With regular air, driving was an exercise in pain. With nitrogen.......sweet nitrogen, the ride is soft and the bumps and thumps are muted. I also understand there may be a small fuel savings when using nitrogen filled tires.

I could never go back to plain old air.

Anyone using it ?

mean_in_green
02-24-2008, 01:03 PM
I've been looking into running nitrogen in my 911, for similar reasons.

Be interested to learn others' opinions on this.

Simon

Douglas Hicks
02-24-2008, 03:32 PM
When I bicycled a lot, i used N in my tires. The reason, I use N in my business, and that was easier than getting out the bike pump. I ran 110 PSI in the road bikes, less in the mountain bikes. I never felt any difference in the ride or pedalling effiency.

I understand race cars use N, but any gain in effiency is important in those cars. N is also a gas that does not increase or decrease in pressure when the temp changes.

My opinion, N is hype and a waste of money in our vehicle use.

RoveRPh
02-24-2008, 03:53 PM
N is also a gas that does not increase or decrease in pressure when the temp changes.
.


Pressure is pressure, regardless of the gas used. The ONLY advantage of nitrogen is it's ability to resist expanding or contracting with the temperature. Race cars will change tire pressure by 1/2 pound to affect handling, and they run nitrogen keep a tire at the pressure it's set at.

I respectfully suggest that you're feeling the improved ride in your head rather than through the seat of your pants.

Suba
02-24-2008, 06:59 PM
I respectfully suggest that you're feeling the improved ride in your head rather than through the seat of your pants.

I respectfully suggest that you are totally wrong. According to my butt - o - meter, nitrogen is definitely the way to go. I run my tires at 80 psi. With plain air the ride is almost unbearable especially during the winter. With Nitrogen the ride is * much * softer, especially going over bumps and holes in the road.

Why don't you conduct your own experiment before trying to psychoanalyze me. Pump your tires to 80 psi, then drive around for a few days. Then put nitrogen in the tires @ 80 psi after you've let out all the air first of course. Hop in for a spin, and post your findings. The difference in my Sprinter is VERY noticeable with nitrogen in the tires. Nothing in my head about it. I get nitrogen for free, so no wishful thinking that I subconsciously must get my moneys worth. Anyone who's running the maximum pressure in their Sprinter and wishes the ride was softer.......try Nitrogen. I have NO doubt you will feel a softer and more enjoyable ride.

It's funny that I was talking to a guy who expedites for Fed EX Custom Critical the other day. He drives a Sprinter. He told me he had a tweak for the tires which would decrease rolling resistance, and give a softer ride. He said I would never guess......and I said Nitrogen, and I was correct.

Are we having fun yet ?

RoveRPh
02-25-2008, 01:16 PM
I run my tires at 80 psi.

I don't want to get into a chest thumping contest with you. If you run 80psi, it doesn't matter if it's air, pure oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, or helium. Pounds per square inch is pounds per square inch.

The gas that's in your tires will have no effect whatsoever on your rolling resistance, either. The pressure of that gas will, but the gas you use does not matter.

Suba
02-25-2008, 07:03 PM
I don't want to get into a chest thumping contest with you. If you run 80psi, it doesn't matter if it's air, pure oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, or helium. Pounds per square inch is pounds per square inch.

The gas that's in your tires will have no effect whatsoever on your rolling resistance, either. The pressure of that gas will, but the gas you use does not matter.

No chest thumping contest intended. I agree pounds per square inch is pounds per square inch at any given altitude and temperature, but different gasses should behave differently. From what I remember a nitrogen molecule is larger than a oxygen molecule ( someone please correct me if I'm wrong ) Assuming I am right, then removing the smaller molecule O2 may in some way allow the larger molecule N2 to transmit vibrations in a different way because of the consistent uniformity. This uniformity may also act in a way to decrease rolling resistance. Think of how dino oil with it's inconsistent molecule uniformity differs from synthetic oil with it's consistent molecule uniformity.

I can't explain the subjective difference I feel with nitrogen in the tires, but IMO there is no mistake about it. Pure nitrogen to me has a different feel than air. I keep my tires @ 80 psi strictly for fuel savings potential, and the handling is more crisp and steering seems to be more responsive.

I suggested you put 80 psi in your tires to exacerbate the harsh ride that 80 psi produce, so when you put nitrogen in, the difference should be very noticeable. If you simply replaced the nitrogen at your normal air pressure assuming it's not 80, the difference might not me that apparent.

I made this thread just to help out anyone who's having a tough time with a rough ride in their Sprinter. Some tire dealers will include free nitrogen when purchasing new tires, and add free nitrogen as needed for the life of the tires. Nitrogen is pretty cheap. If anyone is curious, by all means get your tires filled. Unless I'm out in left field on this one ( I doubt it ) you will feel something has changed with the ride quality of your Sprinter......and it feels pretty good.

take care.....

MikeP
02-25-2008, 09:00 PM
Hi,
I know nothing...
Did notice when last time had Sprinter serviced that dealership had setup tire service area with Nitrogen. I just thought on account of our great variable changes in temp here in Oklahoma was why.
Course as rough as the roads are here in city need a hovercraft, still bet with our poor roads still be rough ride.
Later,
Mike

Suba
02-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Hi,
I know nothing...
Did notice when last time had Sprinter serviced that dealership had setup tire service area with Nitrogen. I just thought on account of our great variable changes in temp here in Oklahoma was why.
Course as rough as the roads are here in city need a hovercraft, still bet with our poor roads still be rough ride.
Later,
Mike

You know more than you think. You know your Sprinter dealer has Nitrogen. You know the roads are so rough in your city you need a hovercraft. You know you have an open mind, and you know you would never try to post on someone else's thread and attempt to discredit and intimidate ( because they might open up a can of whoop ass : )

Yes.....you know a great deal (!)
:clapping:

RoveRPh
02-25-2008, 10:13 PM
You know more than you think. You know your Sprinter dealer has Nitrogen. You know the roads are so rough in your city you need a hovercraft. You know you have an open mind, and you know you would never try to post on someone else's thread and attempt to discredit and intimidate ( because they might open up a can of whoop ass : )

Yes.....you know a great deal (!)
:clapping:

I was not tring to discredit you, just telling you facts. Physics are physics, and your "butt - o - meter" is not accurate. Nitrogen is used to keep tire pressures constant, not to provide a more supple ride.

Also, I'm sorry if I was perceived as trying to intimidate you. I just want people to know the facts before they run out and get nitrogen in their tires hoping for a better ride. Nitrogen is a great idea if you don't regularly check your tire pressures (and who does).


Copied from getnitrogen.org:

"Proper tire pressure is a big deal.
Maintain it with nitrogen, and you'll see
these three primary benefits:


Increased Fuel Efficiency – Correct tire pressure keeps the manufacturer's recommended “contact patch” on the road. This lessens the rolling resistance and maximizes fuel efficiency. Read On...


Longer Tire Life – When it comes in contact with other materials, oxygen causes oxidation. Oxidation can make rubber brittle and cause it to lose tensile strength. In addition, at high temperatures and pressures, oxygen reacts and damages inner tire liners and belt packages; nitrogen does not. Read On...


Increased Safety – Under-inflated tires cause 90% of blowouts. Nitrogen provides more reliable pressure for reduced blowout potential. Read On... "

Suba
02-25-2008, 10:49 PM
I was not tring to discredit you, just telling you facts. Physics are physics, and your "butt - o - meter" is not accurate. Nitrogen is used to keep tire pressures constant, not to provide a more supple ride.

I'm well aware that nitrogen is used for consistent air pressure, BUT my butt-o-meter was recently re-calibrated, so don't tell me it's not accurate. I'll tell you what, why don't you conduct your own experiment and start your own thread. Maybe the topic will be ' Why I fell in love with Nitrogen ' or maybe ' Nitrogen sucks '

Do like I asked you to do from the start. Since your a non believer, have your tires filled with N2 and kindly enlighten us with your findings. Remember to keep an open mind. Let your butt-o-meter guide you. Come on, your a big boy.....don't tell me your afraid of a little Nitrogen (!)

btw, thanks for the apology but you didn't intimidate me.........you can't (! ) :D:

May the force be with you.....
bye

Suba
02-26-2008, 03:41 AM
After spending the past several hours researching Nitrogen in tires I've found enough information to satisfy why I feel a softer ride. I've found many people on-line who've posted that they experience a softer ride with Nitrogen in their tires, but they don't know why. I've looked at the ideal law which pertains to the behavior of gasses, atomic weights, and atomic radii, ( N2 has a smaller atomic weight, but larger atomic radii than 02 ) and a host of other things. I could write a book with the information I've discovered, but I don't have the time.

Pure N2 ( 99 % ) when used in tires has certain favorable attributes compared to air. The % of N2 found in most tire shops is between 85 % to 92 %. The real advantage of using N2 is the absence of water vapor. Moisture is the major cause of tire pressure rise and higher tire temperatures. Any gas which is devoid of water vapor would act in a similar manner as N2. Dried air would act in a similar fashion, but I think N2 is preferable on many levels i.e. non flammable.

The reason I feel a softer ride with N2 ( as many others do ) is because the tire pressure does not increase as it does with air. This is not to suggest that pure N2 pressure does not increase with temperature at the same approximate rate as a dried air mixture, because I believe it does, but that N2 does not contain water vapor ( pure N2 ) and it's the water vapor that heats up and expands thereby causing an increase in tire pressure which results in a harder ride using regular air.

RoveRPh was correct that N2 is used to keep tire pressure constant but failed to say why. The bottom line is, I feel relatively pure N2 in tires will produce a consistently stable, softer, and more enjoyable ride compared with regular air at the pump.

Suba

Aircraft Wrench
02-26-2008, 03:55 AM
in the pursuit of all that is good, noble and greater MPG...


does the tire manufacture recognize we will generally use air that is fairly dry and will rise in pressure under use??? and does not higher pressure give us greater mpg? so, shall we have comfy butts or greater mpg:hmmm:

I shall suggest checking the max tire pressure under load after a 30 mile run at normal road speeds...check tire temp with a IR thermometer

do this with a normal "shop air" tire and a N2 tire to compare temps........perhaps you need to inflate the N2 tires more than a "cold tire shop air" tire pressure for better or comparable mileage :2cents:

in the absence of any other data of course....

I do have N2 available at all times in my shop....as well as shop air......no inclination to change at this time (cost/benefit?)

Best regards,

Peabody

Suba
02-26-2008, 04:24 AM
in the pursuit of all that is good, noble and greater MPG... does the tire manufacture recognize we will generally use air that is fairly dry and will rise in pressure under use??? and does not higher pressure give us greater mpg? so, shall we have comfy butts or greater mpg:hmmm:

Peabody,

You raise some excellent points (!) I would imagine tire companies would assume we will use air to fill our tires. Air found at the pump is NOT very dry. It has a lot of water vapor in it consistent with the surrounding atmospheric conditions - relative humidity - dew point - air saturation. The more water vapor in our tires, the more they will increase pressure when the tires heat up. Water vapor in tires is generally considered a bad thing.

Higher running tire pressures should equate to better MPG, but I feel that is very dependent on the cold pressure in the tires. I run my tires at maximum cold pressure, which is 80 psi. I've never checked my tire pressure when hot. I think there is merit in the idea of inflating N2 tires above the cold temp pressure, but I need to think about that further. I think if you run the maximum cold pressure using N2, you would be hard pressed to see a decline in MPG. One attribute of using N2 is that your tires will run cooler. This can only be a good thing IMO.

Please post your finding when you get them. I think you are on the right track. I will look forward to your finding (!)

Best to you....

Suba

Aircraft Wrench
02-26-2008, 04:37 AM
SUUUUUUUBAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!


I will take my IR Wednesday and check temps after a 60 mile run as well as pressure before and after (on 4 tires)(( I'm not doing the spare!))(((And I hope not to use it :shifty:)))

Best !

The Jiminator

Don Horner
02-26-2008, 05:12 AM
If I ran my front tires at 80 psi (MUCH higher than recommended), I would have abnormal wear because of the increased pressure. The center tread of the tire would bulge and wear much more quickly than the shoulders. The opposite is true of under-inflated tires; the shoulders wear more quickly than the center. The rapid wear on the tire would likely offset any fuel savings. On my conversion van, however, running the rears at 80 psi would not be a gross over-inflation -- if I recall, the recommendation is for 55 psi front, 76 psi rear. I'll have to check tomorrow in daylight.

You also drastically change the handling characteristics of the vehicle when you over- or under-inflate the tires at one end or the other. Over-inflating the front (or under-inflating the rear) will increase oversteer, while the opposite is true for understeer.

It's not good to fool around with pressures much different than recommended, regardless of the gas used to fill the tires, unless you know exactly what you are doing. The best way to determine that is with a tire temperature gauge immediately after traveling a variety of turns. By the way, the infra-red temp gauge will give you an indication, but nothing is as accurate as a temp gauge with a sharp-pointed probe inserted into the tread at three places on each tire (outer shoulder, center and inner shoulder).

I am the former car-builder and crew chief for my son's sports car racing efforts, with a respectable amount of experience setting up race cars. I own a probe-type tire temp guage and have used it hundreds of times after track testing to set up ideal pressures (the temps will also indicate the best alignment settings, especially camber).

We used Nitrogen in our race tires, but for the express purpose of keeping the temps constant under a variety of conditions. As a tire gets hotter, it will expand in size and upset the critical "stagger" that provides the best handling. We needed to prevent those temp changes as much as possible.

However, I would not consider using Nitrogen in my street tires. In my opinion, and in my experience, there is not enough of a difference to justify the cost. In our area, car dealers have invested in Nitrogen filling stations and charge outlandish rates to purge the tires and fill them with Nitrogen.

Also, be aware that it is physically impossible to have a tire 100% inflated with Nitrogen. It is impossible to purge all of the air trapped within the tire when the tire was mounted, unless it was mounted in a 100% nitrogen environment.

Suba
02-26-2008, 03:06 PM
Hi Don,

Thanks for the reply, and lending your expertise. This thread is taking on a life of it's own : ) I agree with most things you've said. You can cause unusual wear patterns by over - under inflating tires.

I ran my old set of Michelins @ 80 psi. The tires still have about 20,000 miles left, but I wanted a better winter tire and bought Michelin LTX M&S. I have a second set of rims and will put the old tires back on this spring. My point is, I just checked the old tires, and no unusual wear can be seen. I'll try the chalk test on my fronts when the weather gets better.

I agree it's not a good idea to fool around with tire pressures other than what's recommended unless you know what you are doing. I also agree that to know true temps inside a tire, you would need a specialized instrument as you have described. Reading the outside of the tire will only give you a very general interpretation of inside temps, but it's better than nothing at all.

You are right that a tire with N2 will get hot, but that tire will see lower temperatures compared with an identical tire filled with air because of the absence of water vapor ( unless the other tire was filled with dried air ) Water vapor will cause a spike in the pressure, and also the temperature. Actually the temperature rise comes first followed by the pressure rise. With high grade N2 the tire pressure and temperature can be carefully controlled in a predictable way with the right equipment.

I also agree that if you have to pay too much for N2, it may not be worth the cost. N2 DOES permeate tires at almost the same rate as O2. It's a fallacy that N2 will not leak from tires. N2 does have a BIG FAT molecule compared to an O2 molecule, which is also lighter ( hence the smaller atomic weight, and the larger atomic radii than O2 ) N2 from what I understand will permeate rubber compounds only slightly less than air, and the difference is smaller than the sellers of N2 want you to believe.

Where I disagree with you is over your assertion that it's physically impossible to have a tire 100 % inflated with N2 unless it is mounted in a 100 % N2 environment. Keep in mind that 100 % N2 may not even exist. 99 % N2 is considered VERY pure. The reason I disagree with your statement, is because I've read about some N2 sellers which hook up a vacuum to the valve stem to purge all traces of air, then insert N2 to whatever percentage they have. Anyone paying for N2 should inquire about the percentage. If the seller can't tell you the percentage, or if they tell you 100 % my advise is to locate another seller.

Also keep in mind that when I made this thread I only knew one thing about N2. That being I've enjoyed a softer and more pleasurable ride since having N2 in my tires, and wanted to share that information. I've learned a great deal about this subject in the past few days. Since all of our Sprinters ride on tires, hopefully this thread has been enlightening to others as well.

Suba

bc339
02-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Methinks the Emperor needs some new clothes...........
I started my career over 30 years ago as an Air Force aircraft mechanic. We always serviced aircraft tires with dry nitrogen. The reasons listed are correct for less pressure lost over time and less internal breakdown. But the biggest reason was to prevent a condition known as auto ignition or otherwise known as spontaneous combustion. As the tire heat increases, in an air filled tire, the oxygen combines with the tire vapors and creates an explosive atmosphere that can auto ignite. This makes for a very bad day for the aircrew and aircraft. So the reason nitrogen (it's inert) is used is to remove the oxygen, which removes the combustable atmosphere - no explosion.
Continental tire co has published a service bulletin on this subject for auto use. For normal auto use, nitrogen use isn't required. If you are still awake at this point, here's their link.
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/contiacademy/drivers_ed/nitrogen.pdf
If you really believe the ride is different, then how about installing some strain gauges, instrument your vehicle and come up with quantifiable test data. I've been in flight testing for 8 years now. Test and verify. The Mark I butt-o-meter may not be that reliable.
I can't believe I've spent this amount of time on this message.
Bruce

Suba
02-26-2008, 03:48 PM
So the reason nitrogen (it's inert) is used is to remove the oxygen, which removes the combustable atmosphere - no explosion. If you really believe the ride is different, then how about installing some strain gauges, instrument your vehicle and come up with quantifiable test data. I've been in flight testing for 8 years now. Test and verify. The Mark I butt-o-meter may not be that reliable. I can't believe I've spent this amount of time on this message.
Bruce

Bruce,

Thanks for your input. I don't have the time or inclination to come up with quantifiable test date. Let's get real (!) It seems I'm the only one with any first hand experience with N2 in Sprinter tires. Let me ask you to conduct your own experiment. If you think my butt -o- meter is not accurate or reliable, please rely on yours instead. Get some N2 and tell us your anecdotal impressions.

I'm also well aware that N2 is used in aircraft tires to prevent auto ignition ( fire ) BUT you are incorrect that N2 is inert. N2 is * essentially * inert. N2 is not a Nobel gas.

I'd like to stay and chat, but I have to run. I won't be back here for a few days.

Have a nice day.....
Suba

talkinghorse43
02-26-2008, 04:05 PM
Bruce,

Thanks for your input. I don't have the time or inclination to come up with quantifiable test date. Let's get real (!) It seems I'm the only one with any first hand experience with N2 in Sprinter tires. Let me ask you to conduct your own experiment. If you think my butt -o- meter is not accurate or reliable, please rely on yours instead. Get some N2 and tell us your anecdotal impressions.

I'm also well aware that N2 is used in aircraft tires to prevent auto ignition ( fire ) BUT you are incorrect that N2 is inert. N2 is * essentially * inert. N2 is not a Nobel gas.

I'd like to stay and chat, but I have to run. I won't be back here for a few days.

Have a nice day.....
Suba

All I can say about the info(?) presented by some in this thread is caveat lector.

loredo_sprinter
02-26-2008, 06:06 PM
I'm a shuttle driver so therefore I've got a bunch of potential butt meters :rad: where do I get nitrogen for my Sprinter here in San Diego? Discount tires doesn't have it or even know of where to get it, the dealer doesn't even have a clue.... Thanking you in advance

Jules

BULBASOR
02-26-2008, 10:27 PM
Ha Ha ha HA :laughing: I just read this post and I'm still rollong over the "BUTT-O-METER", that's great!

I wonder if Altered Sprinter or Seek have BUTT-O-METERS in thier Sprinters?

Anyway, is answer to the original thread = "WHO HAS NITROGEN IN THIER TIRES?"

BULBASOR does! I do not have the slightest idea why they put nitrogen in BULBASORS tire but they have had that stuff in there since day one. I have no clue why. The only reason I found out was because right after I got BULBASOR we hit a deer and the dealer charges the insurance company for nitrogen. I asked them what was that for? (I thought it was the A/C or somthing). The dealer told me it was for the tires - go figure.

By the way SUBA, I DO have a degre in psychology (BABS) Behavioral Science Degree. Really quite worthless, but in my limited capacity I think you and your BUTT-O-METER are not completly wacky but we will wait to hear from the real trained "hot air" scientist's before passing judgement on your delicate instrument there.:bounce:

mobileoilchange
02-27-2008, 03:11 AM
bulbasor,
nitrogen helps your tires run cooler, last longer, keeps the psi more stable, improved fuel mileage and handling. the molecules in nitrogen are larger then oxygen. BUT you must still check tire pressure, but to keep the nitrogen 100% you should not add compressed air. anyone that sells nitrogen can check the purity of the nitrogen in your tires. its best not to add compressed air to get the full effects of the nitrogen.

Aircraft Wrench
02-27-2008, 03:25 AM
Suba,

Being a vibration guy...

I will attach an accleromter to the pilots seat frame and get some data on a "flight to/from DLH"....then I will check the same rout after a N2 event....

Just for you and the "Buttom-eter"

Best,

Wrencher

BULBASOR
02-27-2008, 03:31 AM
I do not put any air in the tires, and I must admit I'm really bad and I never check the pressure. Can you provide NITROGEN for peoples tires when you do the oil? Is it somthing that can be part of the normal service? I guess my dealer keeps the NITROGEN in the tires because they told me that's what they put in and they always give me this check sheet every time I visit that shows all the stuff they checked - PSI, brake thickness, oil, water, brake fluid, differential fluid, tranny fluid, along with the regular check on the belts and hoses and stuff. They do all this every time I go in.

I looked at the spec sheet on the tires and I'm confused why anyone was making fun of Suba for running 80PSI in his tires? Is that the wrong PSI?
Maybe someday I will check the pressure on my tires - for now I just look at them and if they are round on all sides I figure everything is good, (no flat parts).
6451

sikwan
02-27-2008, 04:06 AM
I will attach an accleromter to the pilots seat frame and get some data on a "flight to/from DLH"....then I will check the same rout after a N2 event....

This will be interesting. :drool:

Is that the wrong PSI?

80psi is the correct rating for the tire, but if you look at the Sprinter manufacturer plate it recommends (if I remember correctly) 55psi front and 60-80psi rear depending on load.

I have those tires too (oem actually) and I had them at 50psi for comfort. I bumped all four of them up to 60psi and it's not that bad, but I can feel (slightly) a difference in bumpyness. I can also feel every groove in the road with the front at 60psi. Maybe that's why 55psi is recommended psi.

tegimr
02-27-2008, 05:28 AM
I'm just wondering how and how often a butt-o-meter gets calibrated, and if the results are scaled metric or English. I'm pretty certain that the output is not MODBUS or DH1 compatible.


:lol:

Don Horner
02-27-2008, 12:57 PM
Where I disagree with you is over your assertion that it's physically impossible to have a tire 100 % inflated with N2 unless it is mounted in a 100 % N2 environment. Keep in mind that 100 % N2 may not even exist...
You are making my point -- if it doesn't exist, it's impossible to have it inside your tires.

... 99 % N2 is considered VERY pure. The reason I disagree with your statement, is because I've read about some N2 sellers which hook up a vacuum to the valve stem to purge all traces of air...
And, therein lies the proof. It is physically impossible to pull a 100% vacuum. Therefore, it is physically impossible to purge 100% of the air. Therefore, it is physically impossible to have 100% Nitrogen.

Once again, due to my (very) checkered past, I can back this up with actual experience. Before I retired, I operated a business that, among other things, dispensed LP Gas into cylinders. Because we also did LP gas installations, I went ahead and got Florida's highest LP Gas license rating, a "601" license, which required extensive education and exams, as well as practical experience. I operated that business for 10 years.

Part of the process of filling a new LP gas cylinder is purging as much air as possible and replacing it with as close to 100% propane as possible. There are two accepted ways to do it -- put a small amount of propane into the cylinder, which,being heavier than air, goes to the bottom of the cylinder and forces the air to the top, near the valve, then open the valve and let the propane push out the air. Doing this 5 or 6 times will result in about a 98% propane mix inside the cylinder. However, the advent of the OPD (Overfill Protection Device) valves on cylinders of 40# capacity and smaller made it very difficult to quickly purge in this method. Therefore, I installed a vacuum purge, similar to the one the tire dealers are using. I used a vacuum pump to remove as much air as possible, then closed that valve to hold the vacuum and opened a valve to introduce propane. The results were the same as manually purging -- about 98% or so propane.

If you think about it, it can't get any better -- the closer one comes to a full vacuum, the more likely it is that the vessel will collapse, unless it is specifically constructed to resist the pressure on the outside of the vessel caused by the vacuum. In other words, trying to pull a 100% vacuum on a tire would cause the tire to collapse.

Now, as far as recommending a different medium to fill a tire, I can tell you with absolute certainty what DOES work. On my New Holland tractor, I have purged much of the air and filled the tires with water. This provides the extra weight to help compensate for the weight in the front end loader and keeps the tractor from tipping over. I use a special valve that bleeds the air from the tire as the water is inserted (via a garden hose and the special valve). However, I only end up with about 80% or so water -- it's necessary to keep some air in the tires. I can use water because I'm in Florida; tractor owners in Northern climes use calcium chloride, antifreeze or -- believe it or not -- beet juice to keep their tires from freezing.

Douglas Hicks
02-27-2008, 01:37 PM
I am so glad I did not mention on occasion I put CO2 in my bicycle tires.

mobileoilchange
02-27-2008, 01:43 PM
not all dealers or service stations offer Nitrogen.
The car manufacture post the recommended tire psi on the lable of the vehicle telling you to proper tire psi. by putting more psi into the tires will help rolling resistance, but may also decrease the tires wear life "depending" on the loads the driver carries.

The psi reading that is "on the tire" is the max allowed psi the tire manufacture recommends.

For example, MB may say 55psi front, 80psi rear. assuming that you have the same size, brand, model of tires on all 4 corners you may "increase" the front psi up to 80psi. but your ride quality may be effected and the tire wear may increase.

to much tire psi will wear the center of the tires out faster, and to little psi will wear the outter edges. again it depends on the loads you have.

Check the load range of your tires. you should have a load range of "E" most 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans do.

some 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton vans and trucks may have a load range of "D" and something like mid size cars and mini trucks "rangers,s10,dakotas etc" may have a load range tire of "C-B-A"

if you find a local shop that offeres Nitrogen, have them test the purity of the nitrogen in your tires, all it is, is a tire psi type meter that simply gets depressed onto the valve stem and will tell the amount of nitrogen in your tires. fast, simple and easy.

i agree with Don, you CAN NOT have 100% nitrogen, even if you are mounting a brand new tire onto a rim, there is still oxygen inside the tire. its impossible to remove 100% of it and to have 100% nitrogen. The only way you may be able to do it would be to have a bleeder valve across the tire fill valve to bleed off the oxygen as the tires being filled with Nitrogen. but why? thats a waste. and 99% is good enough!

theres about 78-80% of nitrogen in the air we breath. so 99% in your tires is **** good.

bc339
02-27-2008, 04:13 PM
After I finish the instrumentation and install some three axis accelerometers, I'll compare the data with Aircraft Wrench.
Bruce

Aircraft Wrench
02-27-2008, 07:04 PM
Bruce,

Nice stuff!

How may channels are you acquiring?

This sprinter stuff is using my slow speed single channel unit......and a rough road!

Best!

Jim

bc339
02-27-2008, 08:04 PM
Over 800, 98 for load and strain, 139 for vibration and acoustic. Plus you can watch movies. No HBO or Showtime, though.
We may also want to apply the General Gas Law to this and also compare density of nitrogen versus air.
Bruce

Higgybaby
02-28-2008, 12:06 AM
I know what you're thinking... if nitrogen can make your ass twitch, why not up the ante to helium for some serious pleasure?

Personally, I've stayed away from helium for 2 reasons; first, it's expensive and (B) for fear that I might be too positively buoyant and too light, especially in the front end. The mileage gain (due to the lighter vehicle, obviously) would be offset by the weight of the ground effects package I'd need to add just to keep things on the road.

I've been experimenting with a special gaseous blend (78% N2/ 21% O2) which we've dubbed "The Jesus Mix" and have had phenominal results. The secret is in the trace elements, which I like to keep at around 1%, give or take. I realize the minute amounts of methane and hydrogen in the presense of a strong oxidizer (like oxygen) could lead to a Hindenburg-type situation but I'll admit I'm a bit of risk-taker when it comes to performance. Sure, I have nightmares about my tires cooking-off while I'm drifting my Sprinter but as the saying goes, "you only live once".

Suba
02-28-2008, 03:08 AM
Wow, is this thread still going : ) I've read the latest posts and I must say they are veryyyyyy interesting. Maybe I can address a few of them.

Talking horse, could you be a bit more specific ? Are you referring to me ? What info are you concerned about ? btw, I was in a hurry typing the post you quoted, and I misspelled Noble. Sorry (!)

loredo......you should be able to find N2 somewhere in your area. Keep looking.

Bulbasor......I'm glad you got a yuck about my butt-o-meter. Didn't you get one with your Sprinter ??? btw, you may not find me completely wacky ( yet ) but do you find me the least bit attractive : )

Mobileoilchange.......you are EXACTLY right.

Aircraft Wrench....I hereby dub you Sir Peabody, trusted knight of my round table. While I was away, I hope you did your best to protect the castle. Remember to always keep your wit sharp ( and your arrows ) for the enemy is not far. I had hoped to celebrate my return with news of victory ( with a hooters girl : ) but she got away : ( Here's to you.....Sir Peabody.......and Long Live The Queen (!) :cheers:

Bulbasor * again * You have Nitrogen in your tires (!) Wooo Hoooo (!)

sikwan.........yes higher PSI equates to higher Butt -O-Meter reading (!) Try 80 in all four tires sometime ( without N2 ) ouch. btw, I think 55 in the front is recommended for comfort.

tegimr.........A butt -o- meter should be calibrated at every oil change, or sooner depending on who's in the left seat : )

Don Horner.......what can I say : ) :bash: Let's just stay away from the 100 % of anything. Let's talk in real world numbers. I misread your quote about it being impossible to have 100 % inflation with Nitrogen. You'll never even approach 99 % at a filling station. I think I have about 90 % N2 in my tires......plenty, but don't top off with air. You'll have to start all over ( I found out the hard way )

Higgybaby...... Nitrogen CAN make your ass twitch (!) btw, wasn't the coating on the skin of the Hindenburg the cause of the disaster ? I though the composition of the reflective coating was something similar to modern day rocket fuel.

BULBASOR
02-28-2008, 03:21 AM
:popcorn: Can't wait to find out the results of the BUTT-O-METER calibration test from the airplane test pilot guys!

glas1700
02-28-2008, 04:01 AM
I've just come into this discussion today and find it very interesting, although I really don't have any experience using N2 in tires. I do, however, want to clear up one misconception that I read about tire pressure. On a regular automobile tire, the pressure shown on the sidewall is the maximum cold inflation pressure for the tire.

Truck tires use a completely different method based on the load rating of the tire. The pressure shown on the sidewall is the pressure required to carry the rated load of the tire, not the maximum inflation pressure. The tire will safely withstand a higher cold inflation pressure, so adding 5 psi over what is shown the sidewall will assure you that the tire will safely carry its maximum load as it slowly deflates over time. This, of course, is dependent on the ability of the wheel to handle the same pressure.

Byron

Aircraft Wrench
03-03-2008, 03:06 AM
Suba et all...

Accelerometer installed and checked...vibe level is low amplitude and freq ESPECIALLY when it is snowing:shifty: thus no good data on this last trip....Bruce probably has set up an instrument....it would be great to see his data!

I have a 16 channel IOTech wavebook besides my standard single channel vibe unit.

Bruce, I am going on a trip South in the van for work...the Queen Mother and 1st Princess are coming along (as well as the royal mutt) I wish I had time to see your set up.....:bow:

Best,

Jimmy

Suba
03-03-2008, 10:59 PM
Hey guys,

I would like to say that I'm sorry if I offended anyone in this thread. I thought that I was posting some useful information. I never dreamed it would have taken the turns that it did. Sometimes things just don't go the way they should.

btw, I now have my front tires @ 70 cold psi. That's much better than 80.

:cheers:

Jrmorgan
03-17-2008, 12:56 AM
I'm wondering if anyone is using pure nitrogen in their tires. I've got pure nitrogen in mine. Ok, I know one atmosphere of regular air still exists in each tire. My opinion is that nitrogen makes all the difference in the world with ride quality. The ride is softer and not harsh at all. Keep in mine I have 80 psi in all four tires. With regular air, driving was an exercise in pain. With nitrogen.......sweet nitrogen, the ride is soft and the bumps and thumps are muted. I also understand there may be a small fuel savings when using nitrogen filled tires.

I would like to say that I'm sorry if I offended anyone in this thread. I thought that I was posting some useful information. I never dreamed it would have taken the turns that it did. Sometimes things just don't go the way they should.

btw, I now have my front tires @ 70 cold psi. That's much better than 80. [/I][/I][/I]

Interesting, Lot of people have commented on Suba's findings. I see that physics have changed since I was at school. Seems now that if all things being equal, in a given volume, the pressure exerted by deferent gases at the same pressure relative to atmospheric pressures can be different. I see none have come forth with a way of describing in scientific terms how the "Butt-O- Meter" works or the scale it uses so we can all see it.

I also found it interesting to find that the gentleman stated that starting at 80 pounds he had a smooth ride.
He then reports back the ride was smoother at 70 pounds. I wait with baited breath when he tries tire pressures of around 55 pounds. Of course I would like to know at what speed this phenomena appears since the gentleman also runs some aerodynamic devices on the back of Sprinter. Maybe the angle of these devices adds some lift to the front end?

:thinking:

Suba
03-17-2008, 01:13 AM
I'm wondering if anyone is using pure nitrogen in their tires. I've got pure nitrogen in mine. Ok, I know one atmosphere of regular air still exists in each tire. My opinion is that nitrogen makes all the difference in the world with ride quality. The ride is softer and not harsh at all. Keep in mine I have 80 psi in all four tires. With regular air, driving was an exercise in pain. With nitrogen.......sweet nitrogen, the ride is soft and the bumps and thumps are muted. I also understand there may be a small fuel savings when using nitrogen filled tires.

I would like to say that I'm sorry if I offended anyone in this thread. I thought that I was posting some useful information. I never dreamed it would have taken the turns that it did. Sometimes things just don't go the way they should.

btw, I now have my front tires @ 70 cold psi. That's much better than 80. [/I][/I][/I]

Interesting, Lot of people have commented on Suba's findings. I see that physics have changed since I was at school. Seems now that if all things being equal, in a given volume, the pressure exerted by deferent gases at the same pressure relative to atmospheric pressures can be different. I see none have come forth with a way of describing in scientific terms how the "Butt-O- Meter" works or the scale it uses so we can all see it.

I also found it interesting to find that the gentleman stated that starting at 80 pounds he had a smooth ride.
He then reports back the ride was smoother at 70 pounds. I wait with baited breath when he tries tire pressures of around 55 pounds. Of course I would like to know at what speed this phenomena appears since the gentleman also runs some aerodynamic devices on the back of Sprinter. Maybe the angle of these devices adds some lift to the front end?

:thinking:

hahahaha (!)

I think that I will keep my secrets to myself from now on : ) Btw, if you've never had N2 in your tires.....

........you have no practical experience to draw from (!)

Signed........the gentleman (!)

Semper Fi
:cheers:

Jrmorgan
03-17-2008, 02:19 AM
hahahaha (!)

I think that I will keep my secrets to myself from now on : ) Btw, if you've never had N2 in your tires.....

........you have no practical experience to draw from (!)

Signed........the gentleman (!)

Semper Fi
:cheers:

Sorry to disappoint, I guess I forgot to mention I have a very large racing background, motorcycles, cars mostly on road courses. Willow Springs in California was my home track.
N2 gas was in most of my tires as it was a very good way to keep things consistent. You know trying to keep variables to minimum.

Thank you Gentleman.:clapping::clapping::clapping:

BULBASOR
03-17-2008, 03:06 PM
I just returned from a trip to San Carlos and back. It's about 900 mile round trip. (That's San Diego area to the San Francisco Bay Area).

Using the MPG guage and water temp I dailed in a steady MPG of 25.5 at a temp of 182 at 55 MPH. I followed the other big rigs all the way through the central valley on interstate 5 and found about 30% of the trucks going 57mph and about 50% going 55mph and the rest going slower of faster. I set the cruise control to exactly 55 mph (I used the scan guage for all these measurements and my GPS confirmed the MPH too). If I came within 20 or so BULBASOR lengths from the back of a truck (close enough to feel a little bit of buffetting from the trucks wake) I noticed my MPG jumped to 26mpg. Normally when I drive BULBASOR I get about 300 miles from the 1/2 full tank inicator, but my wife who drives with a much lighter foot get's 350 miles.

This time, by letting BULBASOR do all the driving by himself (I used the cruise control the whole way) he got 400 miles at the 1/2 tank indicator.

The reason I write this is because I checked tire pressure before I left and it was 50 in the front and 70 in the back. I checked it again at the end of the trip with the tires hot and it was 50 in the front and 70 in the back.

BaywoodBill
03-17-2008, 05:39 PM
Bulbasor, I commend you! It takes a dedicated masochist to drive at 55 mph for that distance.
:eek:

BULBASOR
03-17-2008, 06:43 PM
We rarely drive over 60, so what is the real difference? What speed do you guys usually travel at?

RoveRPh
03-18-2008, 01:18 AM
We rarely drive over 60, so what is the real difference? What speed do you guys usually travel at?


On the interstates I'll travel between 75 and 80mph. State roads, normally 55 or 60. Driving slower than 65 on the interstates around Boston, NYC, or Washington DC is more dangerous than driving 80mph, if you ask me. If you don't keep up with traffic you become an obstacle.

sikwan
03-18-2008, 01:33 AM
We rarely drive over 60, so what is the real difference? What speed do you guys usually travel at?

Maybe this works in San Diego, but I'm sure it's not the same in Los Angeles (well, except in the wee hours of the morning).

I like cruising at 55mph when I'm on the interstate, until the wife asks me why I'm going so slow. :smirk: Sometimes when we're on the road, we have a set amount of time to get from one destination to another due to over extending our stay at the current location. We just don't have the luxury of pulling over anywhere for the night.

BULBASOR
03-18-2008, 02:21 AM
Hmmm. BULBASOR is mostly doing cross country travel. If you notice in the post I ran from S.D. area to S.F. area - the speed thru LA averaged about 45 because of all the traffic!

Leaving LA to the north is a big hill climp called the "GRAPEVINE" and there are two special lanes just for slow trucks to go up the hill because they do it at about 30mph. I do the grapevine in BULBASOR at about 45 to 50 and I'm passing ALL the trucks and about 30% of the cars.

Once you get over the Tejon pass, it's as flat as a pancake all the way thru the central valley for 300 miles. 55 is a piece of cake. I can always find many trucks to follow at 55. Sure, all the cars are whizzing past in the next lane at 70 or 80, but I also notice the same cars passing me 2 or three times because they stop for gas or a coke or somthing. BULBASOR has a big refrigerator and I don't stop for gas until I got my 600 miles in so that's only once a day.

After I turn off at the 152 and go thru Gilroy where all the garlic is I'm back on the 101 in slow traffic again.

Nope, 55 was not difficult at all, in fact - sometimes it was hard to get up to 55 in LA or after Gilroy because of all the traffic.

sikwan
03-18-2008, 02:43 AM
BULBASOR has a big refrigerator and I don't stop for gas until I got my 600 miles in so that's only once a day.

So how do you do the switch off while on the road when you need that bathroom break? :thinking:

I calculate that 100 miles is roughly 2 hours on the road. There's no way I can be on the road for more than 2 hours with a wife and two kids under 4 years of age.

Jrmorgan
03-18-2008, 02:52 AM
[QUOTEOriginally Posted by BULBASOR
We rarely drive over 60, so what is the real difference? What speed do you guys usually travel at?.[/QUOTE]

Wow you guys get 24 mpg Plus??? I have a 416 CDI Long/high box. I do a run from Los Angeles to Paso Robles round trip getting 447 miles to the tank. That kinda works out to 18 miles per. I usually run at 2800 rpm, around 70 ish.....:bounce: Truck seems to like it. I love my cruise control.

I do carry alot of equipment, guess I have to weigh the truck when loaded. I think my mileage gets killed cause I have to huge grades to drive up (6%) on the 101.

In the city looks like I get 400 miles to the tank, kinda figured that out as a 100 miles per quarter tank. Same load.
:crazy:

Maybe I need to do some of that NACA ducting get me some more MPG!!!

BULBASOR
03-18-2008, 03:32 AM
100 miles per 1/4 tank?

After a fillup we can usually drive about 80 to 100 miles before the needle on the gas gauge even moves!

When I drive, my wife is the stewardess: She makes the food - feeds us - brings us drinks . . . I have no need to get out of my chair unless I need to go potty. If my wife or daughter want to go potty, they just go into the bathroom in the back of the van - close the door - and go potty! No need to stop.

As for me - I can go 4 hours easy even sucking a Starbucks or Coke, but when I do decide "it's time", I just pull up the first off ramp and stop at the top of the ramp - I jump out of the seat - my wife jumps into the seat - and she puts it in gear and we are headed back down the other side of the ramp back on to the freeway. Total time: 20 - 30 seconds?

Then I go into the back of BULBASOR and do my thing. Usually the wife will stay in the drivers seat for the next three hours listing to country western music while I work on the computer or sleep. When she gets tired, we do the 30 second pit manuver and I'm back in the seat.

When we are running cross country BULBASOR usually does not get a shut down unless we stop for fuel, or stop for the night.

When we are staying somewhere, like the Gold Country (HWY49) or Oregon Coast for example, we will be starting and stopping every mile or so because we are sightseeing. Like in Yellowstone - we stopped every 1/2 mile because the girls would scream to see every buffalo we passed! It's amazing to me how well BULBASOR works in Stop and go - stop and go - start and stop conditions (that would overheat my olf Ford vans).
6803
6804

sikwan
03-18-2008, 04:06 AM
When I drive, my wife is the stewardess: She makes the food - feeds us - brings us drinks . . . I have no need to get out of my chair unless I need to go potty. If my wife or daughter want to go potty, they just go into the bathroom in the back of the van - close the door - and go potty! No need to stop.

That's the thing. When the vehicle is in motion, everyone stays belted. When my wife is driving, I will, on occasions, freak her out when I unbelt and walk to the back to get a drink. She, otoh, won't even unbelt to close the fantastic vent fan (before it was on a remote switch) when it's 3 feet above her. :crazy:

I don't think I would let any of my kids run around while the vehicle is in motion (if my wife was driving). :smirk: Not trying to be a belt nazi. Just saying what the (wife's) rules are in my little family unit. :smilewink:

BULBASOR
03-18-2008, 04:14 AM
Yeah, those are car rules. Motorhome rules are different. It's really normal to see people roaming around inside a moving motorhome, (just watch the country western stars in thier big coaches on tv). And the laws are different too. Everyone is in a belt when seated, but we do move around to go potty or get a snack.

When my wife is driving I don't belt up at all :shhh: because I like to work on the computer or tinker with van stuff.

sikwan
03-18-2008, 04:35 AM
Yeah, those are car rules. Motorhome rules are different. It's really normal to see people roaming around inside a moving motorhome, (just watch the country western stars in thier big coaches on tv).

I think this is true for fifth wheels and class A, B, C motorhomes. RV's on a tow hitch are not and are dependent state to state. I have a link somewhere... :hmmm:

I would still do it (get up and get a drink), but when the kids see Dad do such and such thing it becomes an example, and sometimes I have to refrain from my outlaw ways. :smirk:

Jrmorgan
03-18-2008, 05:13 PM
You guys scare me. Just for that I'm going to invent a "Nitrogen" bubble suit, so when you guys are walking around your trucks and there is a sudden stop you will fly through the air and bounce around inside not hurting your selves. Seeing other people walk around in other motorhomes is normal? Wait I heard about an interview with the last lemming in a pack of them going over a cliff. When asked why he was going to jump too, the Lemming said all the rest of the lemmings in front of him did it, so it normal.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

BULBASOR
03-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Look guys, you need to mellow out. I grew up in a trailer traveling accross the country. My dad always had an old station wagon and a trailer and I often went places with my friends families too who also had motorhomes. Back in those days we would even sneak rides in the trailers! :shhh:

I remember when we crashed outside of Nashville because my mom was driving and she was not real experienced at hauling th trailer. We got caught in Hurrican Cammille in Beumont Texas the night before and my dad got hurt when a wheelbarrow flew threw the air and hit him in the leg. He was hurt so my mom was driving and the hurrican shifted back on us and we were blown into a ditch trying to pass a truck.

We all had seat belts on. No one got hurt. The trailer and car were almost totaled.

I have been travelling this way for so long I just don't think about it. It's even worse - listen to this:

The interior of BULBASOR was all custom built to my specifications and when Paul at SMB and I drew up the plans I DID NOT SPECIFY ANY PASSENGER SEAT BELTS AT ALL! Although this is totally legal because BULBASOR is classified as a class B RV Motorhome, Paul at Sportsmobile does a lot of things his customers are not aware of. He adds seat belts, air fans, saftey lights, and every kind of leak or gas sensor you can think of.

Now, rest assured, Paul at Sportmobile put not two, not three, not four, not even FIVE, but SEVEN sets of passenger seat belts in BULBASOR when he outfitted him for the road:

The couch directly behind my drivers seat is over six feet long and has 4 sets of belts. My daughter uses the set closest to the back of my seat. The small couch in the back "ladies lounge" area has 3 seat belts. So, anyone roaming can sit down and buckle up anywhere they want, even in front of the galley, and the girls are almost ALWAYS buckled up and in the case of my daughter - she never un bukles except to go potty.

I roam around the camper constantly when my wife is driving but I don't worry about it because my wife is a better driver than I am. I did not make the same mistake my dad made. From the first day we got BULBASOR I had my wife behind the wheel getting accostomed to driving him.

BaywoodBill
03-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Wow you guys get 24 mpg Plus??? I run 447 miles to the tank. That kinda works out to 18 miles per. I usually run around 70
Maybe I need to do some of that NACA ducting get me some more MPG!!!


It isn't the ducting, Jr, it's the 55mph. :tongue:

BaywoodBill
03-18-2008, 06:13 PM
We rarely drive over 60, so what is the real difference? What speed do you guys usually travel at?

We look at the speed limit and we peg the speedometer at whatever it says. That puts us 6% or 7% below the speed limit, something like that.

Except when the speed limit is 55 we drive 55 by the scangauge. Same with 45, 35, and 25. Well, maybe for 25 we do a little more.:eek:

guisar
03-19-2008, 12:29 AM
We are all using 80% Nitrogen in our cars by default- well 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and an increasing amount of C02 and etc gases. I would also point out that any "oxidation" takes place primarily on the exterior of the rubber which is also exposed to UV on a daily basis. I'm not raining on anyone's parade I hope, just pointing out some facts.

Jrmorgan
03-19-2008, 02:46 AM
Baywood Bill , isn't 55 city speed limit?

:bash::bash::bash::bash:

Jrmorgan
03-21-2008, 09:59 PM
WOW I just had my trcuk weighed. The spec on these trucks is 5,224 lbs curb weight, and I'm at 7,580 lbs, being that I carry 2,356 lbs of tools.

I guess 18 miles to the gallon isn't too bad....
:idunno::idunno::idunno: