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View Full Version : How Bilstein 24-167161 shock absorbers compare to the Konis 82-2434


Thanasis
08-10-2013, 06:57 PM
I am considering replacing the rear OEM shocks. I know that the Konis are adjustable while the Bilsteins are not; and that the Bilsteins are less expensive. What other differences are there between the two that one should consider deciding which ones to get?

surlyoldbill
08-10-2013, 11:09 PM
Everyone says the konis are better, I believe them. I bought Bilsteins. For my purposes, I didn't think the Konis could be so much better that they justify the 3-4x cost. The Bilsteins have been great. I normally don't have a lot of weight in the back, but just today I hauled about 1500lbs of dirt to the dump, and the rear didn't dip or sway or bounce. I also purchased Bilstein struts.

owner
08-10-2013, 11:45 PM
I've got bilstiens on the back of mine, stock up front. The bilstiens are fine. Never tried konis, I struggle to imagine how they could be 3-4x better like the price suggests.

Trayscott
08-11-2013, 01:02 PM
I have a 2008 so I think Koni is the only option for the fronts anyway. I have used Bilstein on all of my vans, Suburban, old police car, the police cars I maintained at one time etc. They eliminate the sideways slide from a washboard dirt road. I love them. Can't be much different on a sprinter! Firmer ride, but controlled. They are the fix on fullsize motorhomes with all the wallowing handling.

Trayscott
08-11-2013, 01:03 PM
Everyone says the konis are better, I believe them. I bought Bilsteins. For my purposes, I didn't think the Konis could be so much better that they justify the 3-4x cost. The Bilsteins have been great. I normally don't have a lot of weight in the back, but just today I hauled about 1500lbs of dirt to the dump, and the rear didn't dip or sway or bounce. I also purchased Bilstein struts.

Are the struts a bolt on deal or shop deal. Think my NCV3 isn't terribly different up front

Aqua Puttana
08-11-2013, 01:28 PM
Are the struts a bolt on deal or shop deal. Think my NCV3 isn't terribly different up front
There's some info and pics here that should give you an idea of what is there.


http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11905&highlight=shock

vic

surlyoldbill
08-11-2013, 05:14 PM
Are the struts a bolt on deal or shop deal. Think my NCV3 isn't terribly different up front

Bolt on but a little more involved. Requires two jacks. The nut on the top is tricky, there is a hex hole in the top of the strut to keep it in place while you tighten the nut, but it takes a 22-24mm wrench (I think), which is larger than my through-socket set has, so I had to use a wrench, and there isn't much room for a wrench in the divot where the nut goes. A lot of trial and error tool-wise.

Gulf SV
08-11-2013, 06:32 PM
I am considering replacing the rear OEM shocks. I know that the Konis are adjustable while the Bilsteins are not; and that the Bilsteins are less expensive. What other differences are there between the two that one should consider deciding which ones to get?

Thanasis, Here's my take on the shock question. i'm pretty familiar with both brands, and when it came to buy (right after I bought my van). I opted for the Bilsteins. I have run Konis and they are great, but they have also become pretty pricey. For the last 25 years, I've opted for Bilsteins on all my vehicles and have been pretty happy.

I've got about 20,000 miles on the Bilsteins now, and I've decided to ditch them for a set of Konis. For me, the reson for the change has to do with the nature of the vehicle. The ride is good, but the Bilsteins seem to lack the stamina to handle the sway caused by cross winds, most noticeable in the rear. I think there may be other causes to the sway, and I'm working on those even as I replace the shocks.

So here's what else I've discovered, and remember my van has 185,000 miles on the clock.


Tire pressures and sidewall stiffness. The van acts very different to changes in air pressure. I used to lower pressures when I wasn't traveling loaded, and a buddy called my attention to that. I upped the pressures to max and noticed less sway by just standing in the back and moving side to side. Thinking about it got me wondering if there might also be a difference in sidewall stiffness in the tires. I run BF Goodrich Commercial TAs. This is something I'm still thinking about. My friend runs Michelins, but he also has the Roadmaster suspension assist kit installed—hard to compare.



Sway bar and shock bushings. After mucking around with stuff trying to figure out some quirky suspension behaviors, I started looking closer at the bushings. All of mine were pretty worn out. I had not replaced the front shock bushings when I replaced the shocks, and front sway bar bushes were hard as rocks. HD rear sway bar was added when I did the rear shocks, but the one set of bushes not supplied with the bar were not. I'm finishing up on those as I replace the shocks. Everything should be new in another couple of weeks.

So the shocks. I like the fact that the Konis have some dampening adjustability, but by experience, I will not crank them to full hard as it seems quite a few folks here think necessary. That might be the case, but I'll have to discover that on my own. If you're willing to wait, I have a long trip scheduled in October, and I'll have a really good notion as to whether the "Reds" were worth the cost.

BTW: I paid $575 for the Konis. I think a set of Bilsteins will run around $475. Not a great deal of cost difference.

Thanasis
08-11-2013, 07:56 PM
...
...If you're willing to wait, I have a long trip scheduled in October, and I'll have a really good notion as to whether the "Reds" were worth the cost.

....

Kevin,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Bilsteins. I have just replaced the OEM rear anti-sway bar with the Roadmaster one, and I need to drive a bit to see how differently it handles with everything else being equal. So I am not in any hurry to get new shocks yet.

The Konis have been discussed plenty on the forum, but not in comparison to the Bilsteins. I think it would be a benefit to the forum to have a record of your thoughts on the comparison after your October trip. I will be definitely be looking forward to your comments.

BTW, I am at 35,000+ miles, still on the original Michelin tires, keeping them @80psi rear and 55psi front. I am hoping that now with the new bar I will be able to see some improvement in the handling when going around curves at freeway speeds , and maybe more so after replacing the rear shocks.
Thanks again...

Thanasis

Gulf SV
08-11-2013, 08:57 PM
Kevin,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Bilsteins. I have just replaced the OEM rear anti-sway bar with the Roadmaster one, and I need to drive a bit to see how differently it handles with everything else being equal. So I am not in any hurry to get new shocks yet....
Thanasis

You're more than welcome, Thanasis. I'll share a couple of other thoughts. Even though your mileage is low, it may be a good idea to check bushings. They will harden with age. Front and rear sway bar bushes are cheap. and the big shock bushings aren't all that expensive relative to the cost of the shocks themselves.

Another thought comes to mind relative to the dynamics of any vehicle. That is, something at the front can act adversely to the rear, and vice versa. If you continue to experience issues, play with front air pressures. I do tend to run a little more air up front, usually 60 psi. On my race bikes, an incremental change of 0.5 psi can make a big difference.

Another issue is weight, even as little as 500lbs. if it's in the wrong place, like right at the back door. Sprinters like to carry nose weight (look up some of the T1N threads on center of gravity). Part of my October trip will duplicate my first loaded trip a few years back. I thought I had made the worst mistake of my driving career buying the Sprinter. I had nearly 1200#s at the back with most of that behind the rear axle. The van wallowed all over the road. After I started thinking about weight distribution, I moved a 100# toolbox and a 50# generator up to right behind the cockpit seats. No more wallowing—seriously. I took lots of measurements after I got home—you'll find them in that C of G thread— and verified the difference of reloading.

I have several years of Class 8 driving experience, and I continue to hold the opinion that many Sprinter owners have a difficult time wrapping their heads around driving Sprinters as opposed to the vehicles they are used to. They are not automobiles, or even minivans or pickups. We need to slow down a bit on ramps and bad road surfaces. Definitely a different driving experience.

shortshort
08-11-2013, 09:12 PM
I rock my Sprinter like a sports car, and that's with tall tires and cargo, a lot of it up high. Does ok. After I put the Konis on I might run it in the IOM. OK, that last bit was in jest.

Gulf SV
08-11-2013, 09:16 PM
I rock my Sprinter like a sports car, and that's with tall tires and cargo, a lot of it up high. Does ok. After I put the Konis on I might run it in the IOM. OK, that last bit was in jest.


Yeah, rock and roll.:bounce: We can always rely on ESP.

CJPJ
08-12-2013, 12:46 AM
...dampening adjustability, but by experience, I will not crank them to full hard as it seems quite a few folks here think necessary. That might be the case, but I'll have to discover that on my own. I agree 100% with that statement. I have learned when it comes to tuning suspensions... and finding the sweet spot (start off too soft and then work up to Stiffer)...:thumbup:...

surlyoldbill
08-12-2013, 04:07 AM
I think my pair of rear Bilsteins was about $130...I don't know how someone could spend $475 for a pair.

owner
08-12-2013, 04:26 AM
I concur, my bilsteins were less than $300 shipped to Australia for the pair.

shortshort
08-12-2013, 04:37 AM
Rear Konis are about $250 a pair delivered. This seems incredibly cheap to me, since the last motorcycle shock I bought ran about $1500 for one.

danthewolf007
08-12-2013, 05:31 AM
www.thmotorsports.com.is where i got my koni rear shocks $116 with free shipping long ago.

Gulf SV
08-12-2013, 12:07 PM
www.thmotorsports.com.is (http://www.thmotorsports.com.is) where i got my koni rear shocks $116 with free shipping long ago.


I purchased a set of four konis from these guys a month ago for $575 delivered. No recommendation from me though. They charged my card, then told me the rears were on a two week back order, one front was available and was shipped, and the second was backordered from the factory and would not ship until September. Not a good way to do business.

Checking prices on Bilsteins, be careful what you order. There are two different rears. Lots of people seem to buy Konis to reduce the side-to-side swaying—something more controllable with an anti-sway bar (duh). The HD rear Bilsteins are around $90 each. Front Bilsteins are around $125.

So a set of Bilsteins are going to be around $450 plus shipping, and Konis at Eurocampers are under $600. These are today's prices, and the Konis are not 2-3x more expensive than the Bilsteins.

Whether they are worth the extra money is a personal decision which should be based on what each driver is attempting to accomplish.

shortshort
08-12-2013, 02:55 PM
Their site lists them as "in stock, or ships from manufacturer." I guess that means "in stock, or maybe back-ordered, possibly for quite a while." I agree that's an interesting way of doing business.


I purchased a set of four konis from these guys a month ago for $575 delivered. No recommendation from me though. They charged my card, then told me the rears were on a two week back order, one front was available and was shipped, and the second was backordered from the factory and would not ship until September. Not a good way to do business.

Checking prices on Bilsteins, be careful what you order. There are two different rears. Lots of people seem to buy Konis to reduce the side-to-side swaying—something more controllable with an anti-sway bar (duh). The HD rear Bilsteins are around $90 each. Front Bilsteins are around $125.

So a set of Bilsteins are going to be around $450 plus shipping, and Konis at Eurocampers are under $600. These are today's prices, and the Konis are not 2-3x more expensive than the Bilsteins.

Whether they are worth the extra money is a personal decision which should be based on what each driver is attempting to accomplish.

surlyoldbill
08-12-2013, 04:17 PM
I guess clarification about $475 for all 4 shocks/struts or just the rear would have been helpful, I read it as just the rear shocks. If the konis were inded only $100 more for a full set of rear shocks and front struts I would have bought them instead. I spent less than $400 total for two Bilstein rear shocks AND two Bilstein front struts. A pair of Koni rear shocks was about $500 when I bought my pair of Bilsteins for under $150. I just checked, and Koni rears are anywhere from $175-250 EACH, so they are still close to $500/pair. The Koni struts are $250-350 EACH right now.

So, a set of the excellent Koni shocks and struts would be around $850-1200 if purchased individually, sets might be less.
I stand corrected, Bilsteins are not 3-4x cheaper, they are 2.125-4x cheaper.

Gulf SV
08-12-2013, 06:12 PM
I guess clarification about $475 for all 4 shocks/struts or just the rear would have been helpful, I read it as just the rear shocks. If the konis were inded only $100 more for a full set of rear shocks and front struts I would have bought them instead. I spent less than $400 total for two Bilstein rear shocks AND two Bilstein front struts. A pair of Koni rear shocks was about $500 when I bought my pair of Bilsteins for under $150. I just checked, and Koni rears are anywhere from $175-250 EACH, so they are still close to $500/pair. The Koni struts are $250-350 EACH right now.

So, a set of the excellent Koni shocks and struts would be around $850-1200 if purchased individually, sets might be less.
I stand corrected, Bilsteins are not 3-4x cheaper, they are 2.125-4x cheaper.

Bill ,
from Eurocampers (http://www.eurocampers.com/Sprinter-Shocks-Struts_c_95.html), a set of four Koni shocks is $591.90. The rears (2) alone are $252.18. I don't know what they were when you bought them, but that really doesn't make a difference. The Bilstein set for a high roof 2500 is $493.38, and rears (2) alone are $177.60. So $493 vs $592 makes the Konis you can buy today 1.2x more expensive.

Of course if we were shopping price, KYB, or Boge, or Monroe would be the ticket.

I can't dispute there are those out there who have paid over $1,000 for Konis, and at the moment I can't say they are even 20% better than Bilsteins as a Sprinter application, but for me, as I try to seek out a more stable rolling platform, I'm willing to give them a shot.:hmmm:

And hey, if I don't notice a difference, I can probably sell them on the forum for $800. Lots of folks will think they're getting a great deal. :smilewink:

Kind of takes me back to the 80s when things weren't worth buying unless the cost was more than anyone else could afford.:dripsarcasm:

surlyoldbill
08-12-2013, 08:38 PM
That's a great deal, I'm curious about the part numbers. The Bilsteins have a few different part numbers, some shocks and struts are more expensive than others. I don't know if there are different levels of Konis. Maybe Eurocampers is gouging on the Bilsteins, who knows. I just did a quick search on ebay to see the current going rates for sprinter 2500 shocks and struts (figures above).
If it's only a difference of $100, get the Konis.
Yes, if you can get 2 Koni shocks and 2 Koni struts for $600, get as many as you can and sell them individually on ebay for 50% more, you'll be cheaper than anyone else there.

Gulf SV
08-12-2013, 08:47 PM
There are definitely choices with the Bilsteins, and I have not seen different part #s with Konis outside of specifics for 2500 and 3500. Makes me wonder if the 3500 is different mounting, stiffness, and/or length. Bilstein differentiates on chassis type and height.

I wonder how many folks buy incorrectly because they just looked at price. same thing with tires. :hmmm:

Thanasis
08-12-2013, 11:40 PM
Here is how I got the part numbers shown on the topic's title:

A search on “Sprinter” at Koni’s North America official site:
http://www.koni-na.com/heavyduty/products.html
Returns a few items of which only one is a rear shock for the the single-rear-wheel 2500 Sprinter: part# 82-2434
And it is a mono-tube, adjustable shock

From Belstein official US site:
http://cart.bilsteinus.com/search/mmid=190243/drivetype=RWD
The only mono-tube rear shock for single rear wheel Sprinter listed is part# 24-167161.

I assume --except for the fact that the Koni is adjustable-- that these two shocks are comparable based on the fact that they are both mono-tube. As most assumptions, of course, this one might be also wrong.

Those who know better, please speak up.

Aqua Puttana
08-13-2013, 12:23 AM
...
Of course if we were shopping price, KYB, or Boge, or Monroe would be the ticket.

...
Kevin,
I had started to pen a response that included the Monroe shocks which are working for me, but then I figured the thread was about more specific brands so I aborted.

Since you brought it up...


Price being an object, Monroes seem fine to me. :2cents: That said, basically being the truck that it is, for me my Sprinter handes a bit better than it should.

vic

Gulf SV
08-13-2013, 01:18 AM
Vic,
No ditzing here on Monroe shocks. Buddy YellowMike swears by them. He also runs the RoadMaster active suspension kit, and he drove a Sprinter for UPS. A man with solid experience.

I think shocks are really a personal experience. If they fit the way you drive, they are right for you. I don't think shocks can be bought off a data sheet, and every time someone writes, "I got my Konis, adjusted them right up the the highest bump and installed them," I've got a pretty good idea they've got not much of a clue as to what they're doing. Pretty much the end of the story.

Buying the Konis were a gamble for me. Previous experience with them was good, but those were the yellows and at the time they were close to the only game in town, along with Sachs. The Sprinter is almost exclusively used for race weekends, and that generally means 300-600 mile days with a boogity attitude. If they make my ride less stressful, they are worth every penny I threw at them.

An interesting point about the arguement that is ensuing here. The Bilsteins are indeed monotubes and the Konis are twintube. The 82 designation on the Koni indicates twin tube design. Twin tube shocks damp in both compression and rebound, while gas filled monotubes tend to be more aggressive in compression—they snap back when compression is released.

My riding complaint has to do with sway, and I think the Koni shock will do a better job of controlling that since they are more aggressive in reacting to both rebound and compression.

So that's my story, and I'm going to try and stick to it, at least until I return from my southern racing swing through Alabama and Florida in October.

Gulf SV
08-13-2013, 01:25 AM
Here is how I got the part numbers shown on the topic's title:

A search on “Sprinter” at Koni’s North America official site:
http://www.koni-na.com/heavyduty/products.html
Returns a few items of which only one is a rear shock for the the single-rear-wheel 2500 Sprinter: part# 82-2434
And it is a mono-tube, adjustable shock....

Thansis,
Check out this .pdf file from Koni.
54005

Aqua Puttana
08-13-2013, 01:39 AM
Vic,
...
So that's my story, and I'm going to try and stick to it, at least until I return from my southern racing swing through Alabama and Florida in October.
Ah, the AL/FL rugged mountainous acid test. That circuit is highlighted by many shock absorber marketing professionals to assure performance. :tongue:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :hugs:

Thanks for the info on the Koni's. :thumbup: I used them on my old Porsche, but I really don't push my Sprinter like I did that vehicle.

Sorry for the diversion. Carry on. vic

Gulf SV
08-13-2013, 01:51 AM
Ah, the AL/FL rugged mountainous acid test. That circuit is highlighted by many shock absorber marketing professionals to assure performance. :tongue:.....

Sorry for the diversion. Carry on. vic

Yep that was the trip a few years ago that had me screaming,"Why did I ever buy this thing?":bash:

Glad I got past that.:cheers: :rad:

Thanasis
08-13-2013, 05:06 AM
Thansis,
Check out this .pdf file from Koni.
54005
Kevin,
Educational doc... and I stand corrected:
Koni 82-2437: Twin-tube hydrolic ( Koni makes mono-tube shocks too, but for other applications/vehicles )
Bilstein 24-167161: Mono-tube gas

BTW, here is a video that demonstrates Bilstein's view re. what they claim to be the advantage of their mono-tube design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrUuESt2Q9I


Thanasis

shortshort
08-13-2013, 03:57 PM
If you create an account and fill you cart at thm, then don't proceed to checkout, they will send you an email with a 3% off enticement coupon.

Colorado_Al
08-13-2013, 05:06 PM
Here is a 3% off coupon for THM:
threeoffthm2temp

I'm not necessarily recommending them either, as they charge you right away and then order your parts from Koni. Most will charge you when they ship from Koni. There are very few shops that stock the Konis. eurocampers.com and idparts.com are the exceptions

Gulf SV
08-13-2013, 05:25 PM
Here is a 3% off coupon for THM:
threeoffthm2temp

I'm not necessarily recommending them either, as they charge you right away and then order your parts from Koni. Most will charge you when they ship from Koni. There are very few shops that stock the Konis. eurocampers.com and idparts.com are the exceptions


Certainly no reflection on you, Al. I did order them after reading one of your recent posts. I was trying to get them on a couple of weeks prior to an East Coast race meet, and due to a few other big ticket items related to a blown motor, I was keeping an eye on my credit card to anticipate rebuild schedule. Excited to see the charge from THM and anticipated getting the shocks mounted before the race motor crankshaft returned.

When a box arrived from THM, I was ready. But there was only one front shock in the box. What does a guy do with one shock—monoshocked bikes excluded. Anyhow the rest of the story is history. I now also have the rears in hand. so, one more front to go. There were several angry emails and phone calls with promises to make it right, but nothing else happened. Could have cancelled the order, or stopped payment, but I was hooked on the price.

Bottom line? Check on policies. My fault. And now back to regular scheduled programming, as Vic would say.

Colorado_Al
08-14-2013, 02:20 AM
Kevin, Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. Unfortunately, there are very few places that stock the Konis and they certainly command a premium for it. Best price I have found is at THM, but if it is service that you're looking for (or in stock parts!) best go with eurocampers. Also unfortunately, Koni USA frequently has short stock as well. Sorry to hear about your bummer experience with THM and sorry to have been the one that sent you their way.
Al

PS -related to this thread, if you use the Bilstein 24-167161 on the rear, what do you use on the front to pair with them?

Certainly no reflection on you, Al. I did order them after reading one of your recent posts. I was trying to get them on a couple of weeks prior to an East Coast race meet, and due to a few other big ticket items related to a blown motor, I was keeping an eye on my credit card to anticipate rebuild schedule. Excited to see the charge from THM and anticipated getting the shocks mounted before the race motor crankshaft returned.

When a box arrived from THM, I was ready. But there was only one front shock in the box. What does a guy do with one shock—monoshocked bikes excluded. Anyhow the rest of the story is history. I now also have the rears in hand. so, one more front to go. There were several angry emails and phone calls with promises to make it right, but nothing else happened. Could have cancelled the order, or stopped payment, but I was hooked on the price.

Bottom line? Check on policies. My fault. And now back to regular scheduled programming, as Vic would say.

Colorado_Al
08-14-2013, 02:51 AM
Also best price I've found on these is from here:
http://autoplicity.com/products/2512234-bilstein_24_167161_46mm_monotube_shock_absorber.as px

Use coupon code:
30offshipping
and also code:
2offap

Final cost = $169.87
Beware of Kevin's plight and call to inquire about stock status before you order!

General Disarray
08-14-2013, 07:11 AM
Also best price I've found on these is from here:
http://autoplicity.com/products/2512234-bilstein_24_167161_46mm_monotube_shock_absorber.as px

Use coupon code:
30offshipping
and also code:
2offap

Final cost = $169.87
Beware of Kevin's plight and call to inquire about stock status before you order!

Site says "In Stock: 117 Available" right above the price. Should be good to go from them. :thumbup:

Wish I knew this when I ordered mine on Amazon two nights ago (after reading this thread). I only paid $190 shipped, but still 20 bucks is 20 bucks. From Amazon the price for one Bilstein was $95 plus $10 shipping (see here) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009FU6MYO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), but when I changed quantity to 2 the shipping is free (so $190 total). That's about what 1 Koni costs (http://www.amazon.com/Koni-82-2434-Mercedes-Benz-Sprinter/dp/B000RU41I0/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1376464399&sr=1-4&keywords=sprinter+koni).

Gulf SV
08-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Kevin, Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. Unfortunately, there are very few places that stock the Konis and they certainly command a premium for it. Best price I have found is at THM, but if it is service that you're looking for (or in stock parts!) best go with eurocampers. Also unfortunately, Koni USA frequently has short stock as well. Sorry to hear about your bummer experience with THM and sorry to have been the one that sent you their way.
Al

Not a problem Al. It's all down to my assumptions about how businesses operate. THM is a funny place. They are really on top of one way communication. The 3% offers and requests for positive feedback are numerous. But the two shipping notifications I received both came two days after the packages were delivered. That was pretty confusing. And if I hadn't been in such a tizzy to get my bike motor back together, I might have handled the whole event better. But we're good.

PS -related to this thread, if you use the Bilstein 24-167161 on the rear, what do you use on the front to pair with them?As far as the Bilsteins go, I see Eurocampers lists two front shocks—regular and high roof, and super high roof. I didn't know the T1Ns had three roof heights. mine is a 2500 SHC. Would that be the super high roof?

shortshort
08-14-2013, 05:59 PM
Point out the discrepancy and they might fix it.

Gulf SV
08-14-2013, 06:16 PM
Point out the discrepancy and they might fix it.


Just did. Let's see what we get in response. :thumbup:

General Disarray
08-14-2013, 07:21 PM
As far as the Bilsteins go, I see Eurocampers lists two front shocks—regular and high roof, and super high roof. I didn't know the T1Ns had three roof heights. mine is a 2500 SHC. Would that be the super high roof?

There was a super high roof option on vans in 05, 06, and the new 07's. It was a short lived thing; you would know it if yours was one of them. Basically it was a high roof van that had the center of the roof cut out, and goofy looking extension that bowed upward to replace it. It extended roof to 7'. The extension was aerodynamic like a roof top carrier.

jackbombay
08-15-2013, 03:33 AM
So a set of Bilsteins are going to be around $450 plus shipping, and Konis at Eurocampers are under $600. These are today's prices, and the Konis are not 2-3x more expensive than the Bilsteins.

Thank god somebody else here knows how to use google and a calculator! :smilewink:

I have Konis, they were a bit spendy, but hardly more than the Bilsteins, they've been great for me...

Colorado_Al
08-15-2013, 03:56 PM
Thank god somebody else here knows how to use google and a calculator! :smilewink:

I have Konis, they were a bit spendy, but hardly more than the Bilsteins, they've been great for me...

Pricing I see is about $400 for the bilsteins at autoplicity.com (after coupons mentioned above).
In stock Konis from eurocampers are about $615 with shipping. So certainly not 2 or 3 times the price, more like 1.5x. Still for some folks, saving that $215 is worth it.
I have the Koni reds on my VW Jetta and they are great.

jackbombay
08-15-2013, 04:14 PM
So certainly not 2 or 3 times the price...

The thread also started with claims that Konis were 3-4 times the cost of the billys :thinking:


Bottom line? Anything will be an upgrade over the stock shocks and struts, that are probably shot. The billys or the Konis will both provide massively more damping than the stock struts.

Gulf SV
08-15-2013, 06:40 PM
Got a reply today from Steve at EuroCampers regarding the two Bilstein options for front shocks on T1Ns. :clapping:Hi Kevin, We post the information provided by the manufacture. There were 3 roof heights available standard, high and mega roof.
The mega roof has a fiberglass shell at the very top. I'm not sure what Bilstein refers to when they say Super High Roof.

I would consider getting the Koni shocks which are a high performance premium product.
The Boge are OEM and Bilsteins are OEM replacements.

Best regards,

Steve
EuroCampers.com

So there you have it. Looking forward to getting the Konis mounted before the next road trip.:rad:

jackbombay
08-15-2013, 07:50 PM
The mega roof has a fiberglass shell at the very top.

I think that is is just the newer NCV3 that has the mega roof, can anyone confirm?

If your ceiling is 6' from the floor you have the SHC.

calbiker
08-15-2013, 09:35 PM
The sole job of shock absorbers is to damp motion. We find that the stock shocks do not damp enough. The vehicle rocks too much. Shocks have a compression damping and a extension damping spec. These forces are usually defined at a particular shock shaft velocity. Any comparison is just MickeyMouse without including a comparison of the damping forces.

Unfortunately, shock damping forces are not typically specified. You'll have to contact the manufacturers. Give them a call. You'll need the damping spec at both the min and max setting for the Koni shocks. Testing has shown that the min Koni damping setting is not adequate. The Bilstein shock must have damping greater than that.

Cal

Gulf SV
08-15-2013, 10:59 PM
.... Shocks have a compression damping and a extension damping spec.....

Extension damping—technically referred to as rebound damping. :thumbup:

Gulf SV
08-15-2013, 11:01 PM
I think that is is just the newer NCV3 that has the mega roof, can anyone confirm?

Inquiring minds....:popcorn:

calbiker
08-16-2013, 12:06 AM
Technically, a shock has a compression and extension cycle. They both have different damping. Extension damping is not incorrect, though rebound damping is more common.

My point is, if you want to do an intelligent comparison, do some homework and get the damping specs. :thumbup:

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/car-suspension-8.gif

Cal

Extension damping—technically referred to as rebound damping. :thumbup:

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 12:16 AM
Inquiring minds....:popcorn:

A google search shows its just the NCV3 vans, not the T1N like your/mine,

http://intorg.netfirms.com/KB_2010_cars/Sprinters/cargo/2008_sprinter_megaroof/file.htm

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 12:22 AM
My point is, if you want to do an intelligent comparison, do some homework and get the damping specs. :thumbup:

All I know is that with my Konis, I kill it at the autocross events now :lol:

I do drive some curvy lumpy mountain passes and the first time I went through a lumpy corner at 55 MPH I was thoroughly pleased with the absence of bounce after going over lumps, and I'm sure a set of bilsteins would provide a very similar ride. I have my Konis set to half a turn from full stiff, that does just control the rebound, I have not noticed the suspension stacking up with them set that stiff. I do ride mountain bikes and dirt bikes quite a bit so I think I'm better than the average bear at noticing what the suspension is doing.

I'm far from anti Bilstein, I had them on all 4 corners of my highly modified volvo that I beat up turbo 911s with in the local hill climb :bounce:

Thanasis
08-16-2013, 12:37 AM
...
My point is, if you want to do an intelligent comparison, do some homework and get the damping specs. :thumbup:

Cal

Point well taken. So, assuming I got these specs, how do I make use of them to assess which product is a better fit for my vehicle.
I started this thread looking for feedback from folks who have used these products. I am unfamiliar with the technology involved.

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 12:58 AM
It would be best to find someone with a T1N that has Konis/bilsteins installed and take a ride in it, unless you are familiar with specs on paper and how those specs translate to the real world, the specs are fairly meaningless. I highly doubt you would be disappointed with either brand.

calbiker
08-16-2013, 01:25 AM
No worries regarding suspension stacking up. Even with the Knois set to max rebound, they are still extremely fast. They are still orders of magnitude away from being slow and initiate stacking. I've taken GoPro videos of the Koni shocks under extreme stress as well as accelerometer recordings that show mathematically that my 3500 Winnebago MH is still under damped.

Cal


I have my Konis set to half a turn from full stiff, that does just control the rebound, I have not noticed the suspension stacking up with them set that stiff.

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 05:36 AM
Good to know, my van is lighter than yours, but certainly not enough to compensate for "orders of magnitude".

Gulf SV
08-16-2013, 12:39 PM
Technically, a shock has a compression and extension cycle. They both have different damping. Extension damping is not incorrect, though rebound damping is more common.

My point is, if you want to do an intelligent comparison, do some homework and get the damping specs. :thumbup:

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/car-suspension-8.gif

Cal


i would think that might be somewhat difficult here since the comparison would be between a mono-tube and twin-tube shock. So I might inquire where you might have had the opportunity to acquire such data? In my racing experience, I've never come across that type of data from any source be it aftermarket valving for conventional or cartridge forks or fully adjustable rear shocks such as Ohlins or Penske? And I've never seen it published for Koni. Not that it isn't available. Choosing a shock is more a product of understanding the problem one is trying to correct rather than needing manufacturer's data.

As has been indicated in this and other threads on the subject, the problem that is usually mentioned regarding the Sprinter is controlling yaw. One shock is compressing while the other is extending—rebounding, a term perhaps more descriptive in a monoshock environment such as motorcycle suspension design.

Very high end racing shocks have separate damping for both compression and rebound, and a remote reservoir to assist and preventing cavitation—introduction of gas into the oil from the rapid movement of the oil through the valving.

Compress a twin-tube shock—Koni—and it rebounds very slowly. The shock is reacting to the flow of oil in both directions. Compress a mono-tube shock—Bilstein—and it rebounds quickly. Rebound is more under the control of the gas charge in the shock. The more it compresses the stiffer it gets due to the gas charge compressing. Mono-tube, gas charged shocks—Bilsteins—use nitrogen gas as nitrogen is more stable and less prone to heat expansion. Higher end Konis also use a gas charge in addition to the dual valving.

The real difference is the adjustability of the Koni. The valve stack can be changed to limit the flow of oil during the compression and rebound cycles. However, since there is only one adjustment mechanism, compression and rebound are being changed equally, and adequate for the general requirement of the road. With Bilsteins, or any other non-adjustable mono-tube design, what you buy is what you get.

In other words, to address the common complaint of Sprinter drivers, the Bilstein has a difficult time as the compression and rebound forces are variable—light at one extreme, heavy at the other—and whatever the manufacturer sets is what you live with. If it satisfies the driver's need—what the driver is comfortable with—everything is fine. The yaw action—sway—is still noticeable because the initial rebound is light.

Adjustable Konis—any adjustable shock— do a better job of controlling the yaw since they are better suited to controlling compression and rebound. Since they are adjustable, if the driver feels more control is necessary, the valve stack can be modified internally to provide a slower reaction to the sway caused by the vehicle's size and design. if there is a drawback, it's inherent in the lack of separate controls for compression and rebound. Tighten compression, and you tighten rebound—sway is lessened on both sides of the curve. For what it's worth, Koni yellows have separate valving.

All the shocks we can buy will adequately keep the tires in contact with the roads we generally drive, but not all shocks will address the primary complaints of Sprinter owners. A twin-tube shock design will better address the complaints of turbulence caused by other road traffic, the unnerving feeling of tipping caused by driveway-to-roadway angle variances and strong crosswinds. We'll still get pushed by crosswinds, but not feel so much like we're being pushed over. Being adjustable, the Konis allow us to tailor the shock to our individual needs.

Data can be a great tool. Data aids in making initial decisions on performance and design requirements. Suspension systems are dynamic environments. Under general driving conditions, how comfortable the driver feels is a major factor to how safe they perceive they are. I don't think there is much empirical data published on the seat-to-pants pucker factor. :2cents:

Gulf SV
08-16-2013, 01:14 PM
I might have gotten a little carried away with this last post since it was started last night and finished this morning. Good discussions all around.

Jack, I agree whole heartedly with the suggestion to go drive a similar van. Seat of the pants is good. On the other hand, I remember feeling really comfortable with the Bilsteins until I loaded up and headed down through eastern Ky. and Tenn. Holy crap! Knowing what you're trying to correct before you buy is a definite plus. I hope Thanasis is at least getting a better idea from the discussion.

Cal, do you have any of the GoPro vids or the accelerometer data you can share? That would be neat. Wish I had a GoPro. It could be really helpful to shoot some video of the yaw motion with the Bilsteins installed and then with the Konis.

Off the subject slightly, I was at New Jersey Motorsports park last week. Looking at some abnormal tire wear and seat of the pants reaction to a couple of different corners, I reduced my rebound damping two clicks. The tire scrub went away, and lap time dropped 0.2 sec. Comfort increased accordingly. It's the little changes....

Aqua Puttana
08-16-2013, 01:20 PM
Kevin,
Thanks for the overview. :thumbup::thumbup:

... I don't think there is much empirical data published on the seat-to-pants pucker factor. :2cents:
I've said before that I think there are many drivers who mistake body movement of the Sprinter (or any other higher profile vehicle) as a change of tracking. If they react to it then the van begins to snake down the highway from their steering.

The Sprinter body is somewhat loose as it sits. I was made very aware of that one time as I sat waiting for a stoplight. I felt a little shaking which at first I interpreted as the engine running a bit rough. After a second check I determined that it was my dog lying on the middle seat and panting. His 95 pounds panting was enough to shake the van to the point that I noticed.

There is some movement in the Sprinter body/chassis that can never be completely cancelled no matter how much money is thrown at it. It's still basically a truck. :2cents:

vic

Gulf SV
08-16-2013, 01:28 PM
Kevin,
Thanks for the overview. :thumbup::thumbup:

....There is some movement in the Sprinter body/chassis that can never be completely cancelled no matter how much money is thrown at it. It's still basically a truck. :2cents:

vic


100% agree, Vic. Several years in my own big truck taught me that. Most fun haul was loads of package beef. 38,000 #s three feet high on the floor led to spirited drives through the Apps from Omaha to Norfolk, Va. That truck stuck to the road. :rad:

surlyoldbill
08-16-2013, 03:11 PM
Oh, I completely forgot that some people attempt to drive a van or pickup like a sports car, and then complain about the handling. Kind of like the people who try to get more power out of their Sprinter for some unknown reason. For those people, I chime in about how I'm having trouble finding a way to get ten people into a Corvette, or haul two pallets of books in a Cayenne.

Anyone who wants to make their van perform like something it was never designed to be will be jousting windmills.

calbiker
08-16-2013, 04:07 PM
You are in the same boat as many other Sprinter owners and feel the vehicle is under damped. The problem is inadequate shock damping. That means any comparison between Koni and Bilstein requires comparing rebound damping.

The majority of Koni installs have set damping to about 80% of max. Mine are set to max and that's still not enough. Where does Bilstein fit? If the Bilstein damping is considerably less then I wouldn't consider it.

I've gotten the damping specs from Koni and Bilstein a number of years ago, but unfortunately I've lost my notes. Go call the North American Koni rep. The Sprinter Store (in Oregon) can help you out with a name and number. The Koni rep has the data. Bilstein has a custom shock valving department. They have the damping data for the Sprinter shock. It's also very helpful to get the stock shock damping data. Then you know where are are and where you need to go.

Cal

Point well taken. So, assuming I got these specs, how do I make use of them to assess which product is a better fit for my vehicle.
I started this thread looking for feedback from folks who have used these products. I am unfamiliar with the technology involved.

Gulf SV
08-16-2013, 05:39 PM
Oh, I completely forgot that some people attempt to drive a van or pickup like a sports car, and then complain about the handling. Kind of like the people who try to get more power out of their Sprinter for some unknown reason. For those people, I chime in about how I'm having trouble finding a way to get ten people into a Corvette, or haul two pallets of books in a Cayenne.

Anyone who wants to make their van perform like something it was never designed to be will be jousting windmills.


Making a good point with the lance, Bill.:cheers:

This is my new Sprinter autocross rig.

54050

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 05:52 PM
I was joking about autocrosing, fwiw :-)

but your rig looks like it would kill it!

Gulf SV
08-16-2013, 06:04 PM
I was joking about autocrosing, fwiw :-)

but your rig looks like it would kill it!


You gotta know I knew that.:bounce:

jackbombay
08-16-2013, 08:47 PM
You gotta know I knew that.:bounce:

Surlyoldbill comment about people wanting their van to handle like a sports car so I just wanted to clarify my earlier comment.

surlyoldbill
08-17-2013, 12:03 AM
I was mainly commenting about other threads, and didn't have any particular post on this thread in mind, just a general dim bulb of an idea...:D:

If anyone was ACTUALLY trying to turn a light commercial truck into an Indy race car, I appologize. Please send me the money you would be spending on this transformation and I will go out and buy what you are imitating, send it to you, and pocket the rest.

Seriously though, when I bought my shocks the Konis WERE 3-4x higher priced.

Kenpho10
08-17-2013, 03:36 AM
Just got my 2012 replace today with 4 new koni and I have to say, the ride feels much better then before. Also got the 1 1/8 sway bar install too.

General Disarray
08-22-2013, 06:39 AM
I just had my Bilstein's installed; just two rear HD 24-167161's. Paid $190 shipped on amazon and installed in 30 minutes for $52 at local shop that lets me bring in my own parts. Just have to say: OMf'ingG! what a difference. The stock shocks on these are pathetic. I didn't do the fronts or sway bar figuring I would do them in stages to see the improvements each make, but I don't think I'm going to bother with the front or the sway bar at all. Just doing the rears with these Bilstein's fixed all the pitch and sway issues I felt in various situations (i.e. going over drainage ruts in parking lot entrances, etc). I mostly was bothered by low speed events involving bumps or dips that made everything in my cupboards (its an RV conversion) bounce around. These have been the best upgrade so far.

jackbombay
08-23-2013, 05:52 AM
I did my konis like that, rear first, then the fronts 3 months later.

The fronts make a bigger difference than the rear IMO.

Gulf SV
08-23-2013, 11:02 AM
I just had my Bilstein's installed; just two rear HD 24-167161's. .... Just doing the rears with these Bilstein's fixed all the pitch and sway issues I felt in various situations (i.e. going over drainage ruts in parking lot entrances, etc). I mostly was bothered by low speed events involving bumps or dips that made everything in my cupboards (its an RV conversion) bounce around. These have been the best upgrade so far.

Yep, new shocks are always a pleasure, especially if the old ones were serious trash.

But just to keep things in perspective, give them time to settle in to your reaction to them. I'll be interested in long term thoughts. Regardless of the brand, some of the difference might wear off after you've put them through a length of "typical" driving. Maybe a good weekend trip.

Also, I've noticed on mine a softness in the tire siedwall as a source of some sway. BF Goodrich Commercial TA's, load range E, 80psi.

Before I mounted the new Konis, I crawled underneath and had a friend move around in the cargo area, and rock the van side-to-side. Most of the movement I noticed was in the tires. The ride was definitely different to the better after mounting the new shocks with similar results as you discovered. The shock stiffness also lessened the tire reaction to sway. Still waiting for one of my longer trips to pass final judgement.

Gulf SV
08-27-2013, 01:51 PM
An update and some observations.

The 4th shock finally arrived yesterday. Hurray. New suspenders on all four corners now, and a definite difference is noted. An aside to Surlyoldbill: my autocrossing, F-1 Sprinter is approaching reality. :lol:

Suffering from "little kid at Christmas" syndrome, I mounted the shocks as I got them. Here's what I noticed. Keep in mind, my Bilsteins had only about 15,000 miles of highway wear.

With one front shock mounted—driver's side, and new bushings: I was in a parking lot with those idiot speed bumps. Traversing said bumps, I noticed the right shock—Bilstein —recovering later than the Koni. One bounce on the Koni; two/three bounces on the Bilstein.

With both rear shocks mounted: The propensity to sway was reduced. What is left I attribute to sidewall flex.

With all four shocks mounted: Much better control over undulated road surfaces. The van seems more planted, absorbing surface irregularities without upset.

One more point. My upper shock rubbers were pretty much shot after 185,000 miles. Changing them added time to the job on the front. The problem encountered was with the design. Since the Koni's rebound is controlled more by hydraulic action, trying to push the shock up high enough to screw on the nut causes the shock to collapse. I know I should have taken a photo or two, but here is a description of my solution.

When mounting the shock, I installed the rod cover and lower bushing with a 23mm spacer and the shock nut before positioning the shock into the upper mount. I used a soft clamp on the shock body to hold the rod in an extended position. The lower shock mount was secured loosely with two bolts. This gave me enough rod extension to install the upper bushing and get the nut started.

I did a 100 mile test drive without a load, and everything suspension-wise felt better. There was less tendency to wander in mild cross winds, and while the van still shuddered approaching, or being passed by, tractor-trailer rigs, there was much less side-to-side push. I think I can mark all this up to the twin-tube hydraulics. With rebound better controlled, there is less tendency for the shocks to "jump" back up.

A light load trip to North Carolina is scheduled in a couple of weeks followed by a racing trip to Alabama and Florida in October. More observations to follow.

shortshort
08-27-2013, 02:05 PM
where did you end up on the damping settings?

Gulf SV
08-27-2013, 02:20 PM
where did you end up on the damping settings?

I set the fronts at 50%, and the rears at about 60%. The fronts were a full turn soft to hard. The rears were about 1.25 turns. I hoping my Sharpie markings hold up.

The adjusting procedure is a PITA with having to remove the shock for adjustment, but Koni would need to price the shock out of accessibility if they reengineered for external adjustment. :frown:

An air impact helps out immensely, and I figure if I'm not satisfied I can readjust at my next tire rotation. :rad:

shortshort
09-04-2013, 05:49 AM
Bilstein sale at THMotorsports.com coupon code bstein for 15% off

Bigdaddydaveh
09-04-2013, 08:29 PM
Good points Kevin. Thanks for posting your results and observations. Another thing that should be kept in mind about the Konis is why they are adjustable in the first place. They are designed to be adjusted as the valves begin to show signs of wear as they age. Having the ability to tighten up the valve stack as they age (in theory) gives you more usable life from the damper. As they begin to show signs of wear, tweek them up a bit and you are good for a few more miles before it's needed again. Most can be adjusted 3 or more times to keep them firmed up. You can also set them up for better ride comfort from the beginning depending on your preference. You can't do that with a non-adjustable which is often set up a lot firmer than O.E. from the start to compensate for other worn out suspension components etc... (false economy which sometimes results in complaints about ride quality) Adjustables cost more up front but if you can extend the usable life by adjusting them as they wear it may be a better option. :rad:

jackbombay
09-05-2013, 12:02 AM
I hoping my Sharpie markings hold up.


UV light will erase sharpie marking surprisingly quick, so under your van they should last for a long time. I have found pencil marks, on a porous surface, to be surprisingly durable, over a decade on wood that is not subject to wear for example.

calbiker
09-05-2013, 01:32 AM
In theory, that's how it's supposed to work. However, most Sprinter Koni installs have damping set to 75% or greater. I have my damping set to max. It's my opinion Koni needs a higher damped shock for the Sprinter. I discussed this with the Koni rep. He didn't want to make changes.

Here's accelerometer data when going over a small speed bump at an angle. There's very little damping. It take 4 oscillations for the rocking (blue waveform) to stop. I have a Sprinter based Winnebago MH.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/Calbiker/Suspension/Sumo1KminKM1an.jpg

Another thing that should be kept in mind about the Konis is why they are adjustable in the first place. They are designed to be adjusted as the valves begin to show signs of wear as they age. Having the ability to tighten up the valve stack as they age (in theory) gives you more usable life from the damper.

glas1700
09-05-2013, 04:49 AM
Compress a twin-tube shock—Koni—and it rebounds very slowly. The shock is reacting to the flow of oil in both directions. Compress a mono-tube shock—Bilstein—and it rebounds quickly. Rebound is more under the control of the gas charge in the shock. The more it compresses the stiffer it gets due to the gas charge compressing. Mono-tube, gas charged shocks—Bilsteins—use nitrogen gas as nitrogen is more stable and less prone to heat expansion. Higher end Konis also use a gas charge in addition to the dual valving.

The real difference is the adjustability of the Koni. The valve stack can be changed to limit the flow of oil during the compression and rebound cycles. However, since there is only one adjustment mechanism, compression and rebound are being changed equally, and adequate for the general requirement of the road. With Bilsteins, or any other non-adjustable mono-tube design, what you buy is what you get.

In other words, to address the common complaint of Sprinter drivers, the Bilstein has a difficult time as the compression and rebound forces are variable—light at one extreme, heavy at the other—and whatever the manufacturer sets is what you live with. If it satisfies the driver's need—what the driver is comfortable with—everything is fine. The yaw action—sway—is still noticeable because the initial rebound is light.

Adjustable Konis—any adjustable shock— do a better job of controlling the yaw since they are better suited to controlling compression and rebound. Since they are adjustable, if the driver feels more control is necessary, the valve stack can be modified internally to provide a slower reaction to the sway caused by the vehicle's size and design. if there is a drawback, it's inherent in the lack of separate controls for compression and rebound. Tighten compression, and you tighten rebound—sway is lessened on both sides of the curve. For what it's worth, Koni yellows have separate valving.

I haven't been following this thread, but my understanding of how both types of shocks function differs from the information posted above.

The reason a Bilstein shock rebounds so quickly when compressed by hand is due to the high pressure gas, but both compression and rebound are still controlled by oil passing through the piston valves. The gas isn't used to control rebound, it's there to prevent the oil from foaming.

Koni red shocks are adjustable for rebound only, NOT compression, which is fixed. Only Koni race shocks are adjustable for both compression and rebound.

Gulf SV
09-08-2013, 01:06 AM
Koni race (yellows) have separate, individually controlled compression and rebound. Koni reds have only one set of valves and changing the adjustment of the valves affects both compression and rebound. They are both slowed down or sped up.

It is true the nitrogen gas in the Bilstein reduces the shock's normal tendency to cavitate as it would with simply air as a functional component. Compress a monotube gas-filled shock, and it will spring back to full extension. Yes, there is valving for compression and rebound, but the gas is also compressed, and the more it is compressed the faster the initial rate of return. In the range that most Sprinter drivers seem to be concerned about damping, the Bilsteins are only lightly damped due to the low compression of the gas. So the characteristics Sprinter drivers are trying to change are not addressed as well as with the Konis.

And I will agree with others that most Sprinter drivers also adversely affect their suspension smoothness by over damping by adjusting the Konis too high. Mine were set at about 50% last week when I installed them, and they will probably be readjusted to about 30% when I return from a trip to North Carolina next week.

shortshort
09-15-2013, 06:09 AM
Put the Koni dampers in a vice to bench test the settings. The diff between full hard (5) and full soft (1) on the rears is the cube of bugger all. Both are mighty stiff. On the fronts the difference between full hard (3) and full soft (1) is like night and day. 1 is hardly damped, 3 had me chasing my left testicle as it rolled around the garage. Set to full hard, damping on the fronts is comparable to (any setting on) the rears. This just by feel. I was pulling like 14 year old and the rears would hardly move on any setting. Ditto the fronts when set to full hard.

Gulf SV
09-15-2013, 05:16 PM
First long trip with the new Konis and Green Design's ECU tune—the tune might be another story(big plus to GD). 1800 miles across West Va, VA, and North Carolina. Less than 20% on the interstates. Maybe 15% on gravel, and forest roads. Front shocks set at 50%, rears about 60%. BF Goodrich Commercial TAs were set to 10#s below max pressure. New bushings on the front shocks, and new bushings on the front stabilizer. A special note to SurleyOldBill: I now have my 26' long, 6000# SCCA rally car.

The van was loaded light as my objective was a land search in North Carolina. The big haul with a full load comes in a few weeks to Alabama and Florida.

My seat of the pants observations gave me mixed results on the Konis, and I think that might be regarding load. The trip into NC was mostly interstate. Expansion joints were jolting—much more so that anything I experienced with the Bilsteins. I will reserve judgement on softening them up until after the race trip in October. Traveling the state highways and paved county roads through NC was a different experience altogether. The van was planted. No sway, less understeer, and excellent control under braking. All troublesome characteristics with the Bilsteins.

A point of explanation, also. I like to drive quickly, not fast. I've given up setting speed records in my matured age, and I'm more concerned with maintaining a good, controlled pace. I've learned the Sprinter's characteristics for maintaining power, and Green Design's tune has upped the mid-range torque sufficiently that driving back roads is a boat load of fun for me. As an example, I spent two days of never getting out of 4th gear, and much of the time i was running 3rd. Incredible to me, those two days I coverd nearly 400 miles and average 26.9 MPG.

The Konis are perfect for my type of driving, and if it comes that I need to put up with some harshness on broken pavement, I'm OK with that. If the ride continues to be harsh—but still controlled— with a normal load of bikes and gear, I'll adjust accordingly. I think both ends could be softened a click without losing the control I've gained on mountain roads and hilly terrain.

I can't imagine how harsh the ride might be for those who adjust their Konis to full hard right at the get go unless they're running a fully loaded RV conversion. If Koni built a set of Sprinter shocks with independent adjustments for compression and rebound, I'd be on them in a heartbeat.

One more aside, North Carolina is a great state for road travel. The pavement is maintained to a degree i haven't experienced in several years. Good stuff. I ran elevation changes from 600' to 4000' over the Eastern Continental Divide. Some of the switchbacks only allowed for 20mph speeds. Many of the state roads had truck lanes when the grades were long or pushing 7-9%. And before you Western guys get all up in my face, those of us who run the Eastern mountains appreciate the Sprinter's braking abilities when we hit a 25mph curve at the entrance to a town, at the end of a 9% down grade.

All-in-all, I am now very happy with the performance of the van. The Konis are well worth the price for me, and I will take the time to fine tune the adjustment, and never underestimate the life of rubber bushings. I doubt the Green Design tune will ever pay for itself, but I also doubt it was ever intended to. Mileage has increased, but the increase in torque, plus monitoring throttle position, has made trips even more fun.

The 1,733 mile trip averaged 24.9 mpg. I'm happy with that especially since it was a lot better than the 15 mpg I would have gotten with my pickup.

shortshort
09-17-2013, 12:19 AM
I put just the rear Konis on yesterday. Took maybe 20 minutes with air tools. I set them to full hard. Today I'm very tired because I was out all night attacking speed bumps at an angle and giggling hysterically. I may not ever put the struts on. I'm certainly not in any kind of hurry.

Update: Didn't do anything with tire pressure and can't sense any degradation in ride comfort. With just the rears, the uncontrolled swaying on low speed bumps is a thing of the past. This on a 04 118 cargo with about 1200 lbs of tools and materials, much of it carried above the belt line. Why didn't I do this day 1?

jasper2222
09-17-2013, 01:21 PM
I just put about another 2000 miles on the Roadtrek. I can not say enought good things about the Koni Shocks. I would imagine Bilstein are about the same. I just remember my first drives with the old shocks, they were not worn out, just inadequate, and compare those memories to my drives now. I can not imagine going back.

I think the reason the old shocks are so bad is that the Sprinter is designed for probably half load, and when the RV package ends up on it the vehicle is just overloaded. Just my thoughts.

I was tempted to wait and not spend the money, thinking "would it really be worth it". So worth it.

My roadtreck is a 2006 TV!. I set the koni's at about 80% hard. The install of the front is not planning on doing again and making adjustments is not in my plan either. I could adjust the rear ones easily enought, but Koni suppossidly has a lifetime warranty so "if" they do wear out in 100,000 miles I guess I could get them replaced. Richard

calbiker
09-18-2013, 08:51 PM
I doubt shocks have much effect on interstate expansion joints. Reduce your tire pressure.

Cal

Expansion joints were jolting—much more so that anything I experienced with the Bilsteins. I will reserve judgement on softening them up until after the race trip in October.

shortshort
09-24-2013, 03:37 AM
Put the front Konis on today. Seemed like a good idea when I noticed the passenger strut was leaking. Set them to full hard like the rears. Ride is fine. I'll have more time to test tomorrow. I'm glad I went with the Konis over the Bilsteins. The pressurized struts are harder to work with.

surlyoldbill
09-24-2013, 02:54 PM
The old man method of testing shocks holds true: push down on the bumper or body and see how many bounces it takes to stop moving when you release it. More than one visible bounce means your shocks are worn. If you are getting 3-4 bounces, then ANY brand of shocks are going to seem like an extreme improvement.

Gulf SV
09-24-2013, 02:57 PM
The old man method of testing shocks holds true: push down on the bumper or body and see how many bounces it takes to stop moving when you release it. More than one visible bounce means your shocks are worn. If you are getting 3-4 bounces, then ANY brand of shocks are going to seem like an extreme improvement.



True that, Bill.:rad:

calbiker
09-26-2013, 03:05 PM
And the results of your old man test are?????

I've measured the rear spring constant of my 3500 by measuring the amount of ground clearance decrease when my full weight is added to the rear of the vehicle. The rear springs compress very little. The chassis hardly drops. That means you won't be able to test the shocks by just pushing down. At least not with my 165 lbs weight.

A chassis side push is a better test. Start rocking the chassis by pushing against the side of the vehicle. Push 5 to 10 times at about 1 second intervals and vehicle will start rocking. Stop and see how many oscillations it takes to settle vehicle down. Bet it's more than one oscillation.

Cal

The old man method of testing shocks holds true: push down on the bumper or body and see how many bounces it takes to stop moving when you release it. More than one visible bounce means your shocks are worn. If you are getting 3-4 bounces, then ANY brand of shocks are going to seem like an extreme improvement.

shortshort
09-26-2013, 11:29 PM
Speaking of oscillations, I had to get my tires balanced after putting on the front Konis and new bushings. A lot more of the wiggle from my wildly unbalanced tires made it to the steering wheel. Smooth sailing now.

israndy
01-12-2014, 12:24 AM
First long trip with the new Konis. [...] Front shocks set at 50%, rears about 60%. BF Goodrich Commercial TAs were set to 10#s below max pressure. New bushings on the front shocks, and new bushings on the front stabilizer. [...] Expansion joints were jolting—much more so than anything I experienced with the Bilsteins. I will reserve judgement on softening them up until after the race trip in October.

So how have the Konis performed for you and Shortshort? I am shopping for shocks as my rear is wobbly.

This will be my second RV to put shocks on, I had the Sprinter Store put the Konis on my old Gulf Stream van conversion, thought I was set for life. The ride was MUCH more controlled, but VERY harsh. Expansion joints were quite an issue, the whole car rattled, put my teeth on edge. It was the worst thing about the old RV. The new RV is quiet, smooth, and the only complaint is the rocking in the back. So I am tempted to finally buy new shocks, I'm at 50K miles. I can get the Mercedes OEMs (Sachs?) from Freightliner for $125 and $112 respectively. The Dodge dealer is offering the Struts for over $300 each. For that price I might as well get Konis, but they scare me, what if I don't like the ride anymore, like what happened to my Vista Cruiser?

This thread is about the Blue/Yellow Bilstein shocks, but they also make the black touring shocks and when people here say "didn't like my old Bilsteins" I wonder if they mean the black ones... The blue/yellow are specifically made to keep the RV Sprinters from rockin' so much.

-Randy

PS. How are these accelerometer charts made? iPhone?

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/Calbiker/Suspension/Sumo1KminKM1an.jpg

hulagun
01-12-2014, 02:00 AM
hey Randy,

you sure you don't need a sway bar as opposed to new shocks?

Gulf SV
01-12-2014, 04:28 PM
So how have the Konis performed for you and Shortshort? I am shopping for shocks as my rear is wobbly.

This will be my second RV to put shocks on, I had the Sprinter Store put the Konis on my old Gulf Stream van conversion, thought I was set for life. The ride was MUCH more controlled, but VERY harsh. Expansion joints were quite an issue, the whole car rattled, put my teeth on edge. It was the worst thing about the old RV. The new RV is quiet, smooth, and the only complaint is the rocking in the back. So I am tempted to finally buy new shocks, I'm at 50K miles. I can get the Mercedes OEMs (Sachs?) from Freightliner for $125 and $112 respectively. The Dodge dealer is offering the Struts for over $300 each. For that price I might as well get Konis, but they scare me, what if I don't like the ride anymore, like what happened to my Vista Cruiser?

This thread is about the Blue/Yellow Bilstein shocks, but they also make the black touring shocks and when people here say "didn't like my old Bilsteins" I wonder if they mean the black ones... The blue/yellow are specifically made to keep the RV Sprinters from rockin' so much.

-Randy

PS. How are these accelerometer charts made? iPhone?

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/Calbiker/Suspension/Sumo1KminKM1an.jpg


Randy, I'm real happy with my set up. I have not readjusted since I installed. The 3000 mile trip south was loaded—about 8500 gross—and the van performed well.

Let me try to comment with some logical thoughts. First, I wonder where the original Konis were set up. If they were dialed all the way up, the ride would certainly have been harsh. The manufacturer conversions are really heavy, and I still wonder if heavier springs are beneficial. Remember shocks will not support the load, rather they attempt to control it.

Some movement in the rear is going to be inherent in the design. I can push on the side of mine and cause the tire side walls to flex slightly. So being passed by a vehicle punching a large hole in the air is going to upset a Sprinter to some degree. Just considering the height-to-wheel track ratio should be sufficient to see the possible design hassle. Two items that will assist in controlling the rocking—or sway—are shocks and the rear sway bar.

I agree with Hulagun to a degree on the sway bar, especially if the bar is OEM. With all the weight that's been added, and figuring much of it has raised the center of gravity, a larger diameter bar might make a difference.

The Bilsteins I replaced were the black gas monotubes discussed back at the beginning of the thread. The blue/yellow Bilsteins might be a twintube. If they are, they might offer a bit more sway control.

Don't know how the chart you included was generated. I'm sure there are accelerometers that can be purchased, and most phones are equipped with them as a form of shock control when dropped, but I haven't a clue as to an app that might generate a print out.

Finally, I have no experience with RVs. That said, if I was experiencing similar conditions, I would probably look for another similar RV built on a different chassis for comparison. Some of this might just be inherent in RV design. And some of the discomfort might be due to expectation. There's no adjusting to an uncomfortable ride, but the remedy might lead to a lees planted feel on the road. Just a thought, since everything is a compromise to some degree.

Haasman
01-13-2014, 12:37 AM
I just installed new OEM front and rear sway bar bushings on our '06 Pleasure-Way Plateau TS ('05 Dodge Sprinter 2500 chassis) that has 55,000 miles. Made a nice difference in sway control and less than $50 in parts.

I had the mechanic looks for any worn components while under the rig. All looks fine with the exception of the worn sway bar bushings.

Just replaced the front OEM shocks with Bilstein 22-214768. Noticeable difference in sway and bobbing, obviously the OEM fronts were worn out.

The rears are being done this week with Bilstein 24-167161 that are part of their HD 4600 series. Will update this thread when I get it back.

I run the recommended Pleasure-Way tire pressure. This rig has the optional 16" wheels.

So far much more stable, comfortable and confidence inspiring at highway speeds. It seems there is now an increased resistance to cross winds.

This is a good video explaining the differences between twin tube and mono tube shocks, and why the Bilsteins are pressurized. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrUuESt2Q9I

shortshort
01-13-2014, 04:17 PM
If someone else was doing the work, i.e. not me on my back in the driveway, I would consider pressurized shocks/struts.

Haasman
01-17-2014, 01:32 AM
Got the RV back this afternoon. Very impressed with the addition of the rear Bilstein 24-167161 shocks (HD 4600 series). In conjunction with the rear sway bar bushings replaced, it is amazing how it drives and feels right. Went through some rutted roads and then out on the highway with strong sidewinds, and it felt controlled and precise. I did feel the buffeting but nothing to be concerned with.

Thanasis
01-17-2014, 03:50 AM
<quote> The rears are being done this week with Bilstein 24-167161 that are part of their HD 4600 series. Will update this thread when I get it back.
<end quote>

Haasman, Where did you have the work done? I live in Berkeley.
I replaced the rear shocks and anti-sway bar myself, but I do not want to do the front ones because the work involves removal of the wheels, which my sensitive back would not allow. Thanks.

Coast2Coast
03-11-2015, 06:23 PM
After finally reading this thread (a year late :rolleyes:) it seems that the Bilstein 24-167161 HD 4600 series are equally as good as the Koni rear shocks. I think Koni wins on the front struts. It's too bad that Bilstein doesn't offer a better strut for the front. I've found the rear Bilstein 24-167161 for $160 shipped to my door so I think I'm going to start with those for now seeing how the last owner replaced the fronts with sachs about 70k ago. Hopefully Bilstein will offer something as a OEM "upgrade" on the front when it's time to replace.

GULF SV: When you talk about replacing front bushings, are you referencing the front upper and lower strut mounts? Part #'s 9013230085 9013231185

Which sway bar bushings are more vital when replacing, front or rear? I'm assuming rear would make the most difference. :hmmm:

Gulf SV
03-11-2015, 06:33 PM
...

GULF SV: When you talk about replacing front bushings, are you referencing the front upper and lower strut mounts? Part #'s 9013230085 9013231185

Which sway bar bushings are more vital when replacing, front or rear? I'm assuming rear would make the most difference. :hmmm:

If memory serves, I replaced everything. I believe I was over 180,000 mi. when I did it. Bushings are pretty cheap, and they do go bad: they stiffen up. So if you want to know exactly what a difference your shocks are making, change the bushings. As Vic would say, YMMV.

Coast2Coast
03-11-2015, 08:30 PM
Here is the Bilstein deal. On sale till 3/18

http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-Monotube-Shock-Absorbers-and-Struts-c2ddev342bq67a9.html

DJTerryMoran
03-13-2015, 01:54 AM
C2C - thanks for the heads up on pricing. I learned a lot from reading this thread, as I just bought my 2004 140 dually today. I just grabbed these shocks and will be utilizing this site to help edumacate myself on the "Magic Bus" as my sons call her.
-Terry

surlyoldbill
03-13-2015, 03:11 AM
Everyone who has Konis says they are the best thing ever. I think you run in to a cost vs utility evaluation; and in my case I bought Bilsteins front and rear. If spending 2-3x the amount isn't that big of a deal for you, then go with the konis, especially if you put on a lot of miles; because you will get more use out of them. If it's an RV that gets driven 2000 miles a year and you're going to get rid of it in 5 years, just get the Bilsteins.

Oilburner
03-13-2015, 02:50 PM
Is there significant improvement by changing stock shocks to Bilsteins? My ride is really harsh, NJ roads sucks and I am thinking to upgrade.

surlyoldbill
03-13-2015, 03:00 PM
only if they're worn out.

Oilburner
06-09-2015, 02:56 PM
OK, changed all old (probably original, MB stamps on it, 220K miles), worn to Bilstein. Great improvement, my ride is way better now, especially front struts are noticeable. Rear fells firm, but my cargo has no more than 200 lbs. OMG! what a difference!. Glad I did it, as one rear and one front was leaky already. 3 hours of my labor, 1 hour for my wife to clean my dirty clothing.
:smilewink:

Shiryas
08-22-2016, 05:38 PM
I am in the process of purchasing shocks to go with my Van Compass lift, this was the cheapest I could find for the Bilstein rear 24-167161, $76ea shipped. I have had excellent results from their 4600 series on a bunch of off road vehicles.

http://www.ajusa.com/Bilstein-24-167161-B6-Shock-Absorber-ab045d.html?gclid=CNWFno_E1c4CFYGFaQod7L8H0w

For me the $$ saved over the Koni's will help pay for the rear sway bar. I will go with Koni's on the front since there is no Bilstein HD 4600 version, just the standard shock.

Thank you to the board and members for threads like this, very helpful.

Cheers, Chris

GaryJ
08-22-2016, 09:36 PM
Shiryas,

Thanks for the Bilstein information. Seeing your mention of installing a sway bar, a few of us on this board have discovered that the Hellwig bar is totally unacceptable on the 2500 with its method of attaching to the axle with U bolts. Be sure to get the Roadmaster bar that uses the factory attachment points. Observation: A sway bar will greatly improve the on road handling of the van. Off road, on very uneven surfaces expect the side to side rocking motions to be worse than stock with an oversize sway bar. It would be oh so sweet if one could have a quick disconnect of the sway bar off road.

Gary

zaskarkid
10-07-2016, 10:58 PM
hey gary, did you ever replace your rears with these these? 24-167161 bottom bolt hole is 14mm and too big for 12mm bottom bolt which I measured on my 05 140 hightop

RJ2
11-12-2017, 12:54 PM
Was just informed by Bilstein factory tech . Bilstein does not have a B6 HD shock
That will work on a sprinter Winnebago 3500 chassis. Was just about to order one on shock warehouse showed one available for that coach . But when I ask the tech there he said , yes , Bilstein does not offer a shock for the dual wheel vechicles , accept for a OEM B4..... so much for all the reviews on how good the B 6 shocks are on the Virws . It’s a mystery to me. They come up at the websites , but when questioned , they say (admit ) they are not recommended for the 3500 dual wheel Winnebago. Another mystery solved. Just want to get rid of the sway and still have MB warranty.
__________________

Aqua Puttana
11-12-2017, 01:48 PM
... except for a OEM B4..... so much for all the reviews on how good the B 6 shocks are on the Views . It’s a mystery to me. They come up at the websites , but when questioned , they say (admit ) they are not recommended for the 3500 dual wheel Winnebago. Another mystery solved.
...
Not being the correct part may not be enough to stop someone from installing the B6. It may physically fit, but not be intended for the service. They may even work properly except for certain conditions.

I didn't skim the 100+ posts in this thread so apologies if I'm repeating.

:cheers: vic

calbiker
11-12-2017, 03:15 PM
If you have a 3500 Sprinter MH then the Bilstein shocks are not adequate. Get Fox shocks from Agile Off-Road. They sell a proprietary Fox shock designed for heavy 3500's.

Was just informed by Bilstein factory tech . Bilstein does not have a B6 HD shock
That will work on a sprinter Winnebago 3500 chassis.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 04:09 AM
I just received a pair of 24-167161 shocks for my 04 2500.

As another member posted, both upper and lower bushings on these shocks are 14mm.

How do these fit on our van since the lower bolt is 12mm? A bit confused, and hoping this was not a mistake on my part and there is some simple answer I don’t quite understand.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 03:13 PM
Thinking through all this I am very confused.

If I look up the specs for Monroe rear shocks on a T1N 2500, it shows the bushing as 14mm on top, and 12mm on the bottom.

The Bilstein 24-167161 shocks have 14mm on both top and bottom.

If I look at the 04 parts diagram for the 2500, the top bolt is 14mm and the bottom bolt is 12mm.

Although there are 4 "lines" on the parts sheet: HD Dodge 2WD, Lt Duty DODGE 4WD, Med. Duty DODGE 2WD, and Med Duty DODGE 4WD. (even though there are no 4WD dodge sprinters.....)

I assume the "HD" is the 3500, but perhaps I am wrong. Are there two suspension lines available on the T1N 2500?

The Med Duty bolt part is 06104241AA. The HD bolt part is 06104270AA.

06104241AA - 12MM
06104270AA - Cannot find the size online.

So assuming the 2500 = Med. Duty, the bolts are 14mm and 12mm, which would mean it is not possible to install these shocks, although there are many postings stating they were used.....???

There are various posts stating that both the Monroe and Bilstein shocks have been installed on 2500 vans. So something doesn't add up unless there are truly two different suspensions on the 2500, and in turn, some 2500's take the Bilstein size, and some take the Monroe size.

My head hurts.

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 04:49 PM
Europarts SD lists a different shock for 2500 cargo vs passenger. I noticed that for my 2006 passenger 2500.

I don't know whether the listings on this page will increase or diminish your headache.

http://europarts-sd.com/mfg-subcat-item.asp?cID=107&scID=206

Added:
Possible?
If the proper sized removed shock bushings are in good condition can they be moved to the new units?

vic

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 05:00 PM
If the proper sized removed shock bushings are in good condition can they be moved to the new units?


Bilstein said no, don't try it.

Europarts SD lists a different shock for 2500 cargo vs passenger. I noticed that for my 2006 passenger 2500.

I don't know whether the listings on this page will increase or diminish your headache.

http://europarts-sd.com/mfg-subcat-item.asp?cID=107&scID=206


There is a Cargo/Passenger for the black B4 shock, but not for the blue/yellow B6 shock. Odd thing is on Bilstein site (https://cart.bilsteinus.com/results?yearid=635934177855044097&makeid=4006881840060025319&modelid=2701660600661020445&submodelid=7369959635297686414), there is only a B4 for 2500 and 3500, nothing for Cargo vs Passenger..... All very strange, and confusing.

Presumably this is the shock I ordered: http://europarts-sd.com/shockabsorber-rearbisteinrialta1995-2005-1-1.asp

The interesting thing is they state: "These shocks are not for cargo vans, nor passenger vans. They are only for Sprinter 2500 based motor homes."

Not sure if that is because of ride/handling, or physical differences. I will give them a call and see what they say.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 05:23 PM
I did find these: https://www.amazon.com/Emgo-Shock-Bushing-Adapter-D/dp/B07142Q29R/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1514917066&sr=1-1&keywords=Shock+Bushing+Adapter

However, they are 12mm -> 10mm. I would need 14mm -> 12mm.....

Any thoughts on trying something like this? Or is it a BAD idea....?

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 05:56 PM
More confusion.

If I look up the Koni 82 2434, which is what a lot of people install, this is what I find:

http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/product.cfm/id/1579530/name/82-2434-KONI-Heavy-Track-(Red)-Rear-Dodge-Sprinter-Sprinter-2500

Says upper and lower are 14mm.

How can these work on a 2500? Banging my head today. This really should not be so difficult.

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 06:05 PM
... Or is it a BAD idea....?
:idunno:

No worse than changing out to the old bushings?

Have you established whether the only difference is the fastener size? Is the travel the same? Are the damping characteristics the same?

I agree that it shouldn't be hard.

Is this an RV? I recall another thread where an RV had an uncommon front sway bar link design. Still Mercedes though.

vic

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 06:10 PM
...

Says upper and lower are 14mm.

How can these work on a 2500? Banging my head today. This really should not be so difficult.
:idunno:

This Monroe spec shows 12 mm.

I used 2005 2500 single wheel rear axle search.

http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/product.cfm/id/735884/name/66415-Monroe-Truck-Gas-Magnum

Added:
The other shows 9/16th top, 14 mm bottom. "with dual rear wheels". BUT... 2500 selected??
http://www.shockwarehouse.com/index.cfm?mode=results&selected_model=3949&selected_year=2005

vic

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 06:25 PM
Have you established whether the only difference is the fastener size? Is the travel the same? Are the damping characteristics the same?

I agree that it shouldn't be hard.

Is this an RV? I recall another thread where an RV had an uncommon front sway bar link design. Still Mercedes though.

vic

I assume everything else is OK, but should check. Since it appears other owners with 2500 used 14mm shocks, I assume the rest of the specs are all fine.

It is an RV, Airstream Westfalia. But the shocks and mounts seem standard. I don't "feel" this is a Westfalia thing, since the Monroe shocks are 12mm and B2 Bilsteins are 12mm, but the Koni and B6 Bilsteins are 14mm. And some other posters have mentioned the same discrepancy, but there was no resolution.

I know of Westfalia owners with the Monroe and Koni shocks installed, so yet another oddity since they are different.

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 06:31 PM
...

I know of Westfalia owners with the Monroe and Koni shocks installed, so yet another oddity since they are different.
The 12 mm fasteners would easily fit into a 14 mm sleeve, not the other way though. My bet is that there are a bunch of shocks installed using the wrong size bushing and nobody has noticed. The 12 mm bolt probably clamps things up tight.

Just a guess.

:cheers: vic

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 06:34 PM
The 12 mm fasteners would easily fit into a 14 mm sleeve, not the other way though. My bet is that there are a bunch of shocks installed using the wrong size bushing and nobody has noticed. The 12 mm bolt probably clamps things up tight.

Just a guess.


Agreed, but would be kind of scary as the shock is likely going to "bounce" on the bolt with a 2mm gap... Yikes.

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 06:41 PM
Agreed, but would be kind of scary as the shock is likely going to "bounce" on the bolt with a 2mm gap... Yikes.
Maybe. The stress on that fastener assembly may not be as great as you think.

The outer plates of the bottom bracket will cave in to trap the sleeve. Once tightened sufficiently the sleeve could stay in place. There is not sharp rapping against the parts. The rubber bushing and the damping action design will minimize much of the stress.

:2cents: vic

Added:
I recall some broken shock mount fastener posts. I wonder if they are related to the size difference? I don't recall if they were bottom or top.

zaskarkid
01-02-2018, 07:52 PM
I just received a pair of 24-167161 shocks for my 04 2500.

As another member posted, both upper and lower bushings on these shocks are 14mm.

How do these fit on our van since the lower bolt is 12mm? A bit confused, and hoping this was not a mistake on my part and there is some simple answer I don’t quite understand.

I bought the

Bilstein 19-064529 Rear B4 from autoplicity and the lower is 12mm and upper is 14mm. bolts on perfect on my 2005 2500 cargo.

calbiker
01-02-2018, 07:59 PM
If you're returning the Bilsteins then you might want to consider the Fox shocks from Agile Offroad. They have a press to change out the bushing. My Fox shocks are 14 mm top & bottom. They should be able to insert a 12 mm bushing.

Bilstein said no, don't try it.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 08:04 PM
I bought the

Bilstein 19-064529 Rear B4 from autoplicity and the lower is 12mm and upper is 14mm. bolts on perfect on my 2005 2500 cargo.

Thanks.

I had hoped to get the B6 however since we are a fairly heavy RV.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 08:09 PM
If you're returning the Bilsteins then you might want to consider the Fox shocks from Agile Offroad. They have a press to change out the bushing. My Fox shocks are 14 mm top & bottom. They should be able to insert a 12 mm bushing.

Want to give me a New Years gift? :)

I got the 24-167161 for $40/piece. The Fox shocks are out of my league, but I am sure they are great. At that price, I will just resell the Bilsteins if I have to. Not sure what to get however, Monroe might be the only option left at the lower price point. Koni and Fox are too much $$ for us right now.

More interesting to me right now however is you state you are using 14mm top/bottom. Are you on a 2500 or 3500?

Aqua Puttana
01-02-2018, 08:48 PM
I bought the

Bilstein 19-064529 Rear B4 from autoplicity and the lower is 12mm and upper is 14mm. bolts on perfect on my 2005 2500 cargo.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsn-19-064529

Only 1 ea.
https://www.amazon.com/Bilstein-19-064529-Replacement-Shock-Absorber/dp/B009FU5FYC

calbiker
01-02-2018, 08:58 PM
They are a $80 shock, how did you get them for $40.

The Fox shocks are ~ $135. The Fox are a huge performance booster over the Bilstein 24-17702 shocks. I got a couple of them in my garage. It took just a few minutes to realize they were inadequate for my 3500 Winnebago MH. They were just a little better than the stock Sachs shocks.

Why are you getting rid of the OEM shocks? For the cash you want to spend you will see no performance boost. I'm speculating the 12 mm bushing shock has less damping than the shocks with a 14 mm bushing. Your vehicle is probably at its max weight. You need more damping than the cheap shocks provide.

There's no free lunch. -;)

Want to give me a New Years gift? :)

I got the 24-167161 for $40/piece.

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 09:13 PM
They are a $80 shock, how did you get them for $40.

The Fox shocks are ~ $135. The Fox are a huge performance booster over the Bilstein 24-17702 shocks. I got a couple of them in my garage. It took just a few minutes to realize they were inadequate for my 3500 Winnebago MH. They were just a little better than the stock Sachs shocks.

Why are you getting rid of the OEM shocks? For the cash you want to spend you will see no performance boost. I'm speculating the 12 mm bushing shock has less damping than the shocks with a 14 mm bushing. Your vehicle is probably at its max weight. You need more damping than the cheap shocks provide.

There's no free lunch. -;)


Pricing mistake on Amazon. Just like the $17 B4 on Amazon linked to above.

Fox shocks at Van Compass are $350/pair. Even at $150 vs $40, that is a biggie. And why I would prefer to get these B6 to work for me, but not sure it's possible.

You have a 3500, so the 14/14 makes sense for you. And, your RV weighs significantly more then ours on a 2500 so I would agree you need/want more damping.

Thanks for the feedback on the B6 for your 3500. I know a Westy owner who used the Monroes and is quite happy so might follow his lead.

As most owners, trying to reduce the roll at the rear end while going over bumps, out of driveways, etc. The general sway that exists :).

I just had a free lunch, my wife made me a sandwich! :)

I hope someone can interject with a 2500 and the B6 Bilstein or Koni as they are both listed as 14/14 and am really curious how they fit on the 2500.....

Kiltym
01-02-2018, 09:23 PM
What are thoughts about an insert: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IKON-KONI-shock-bush-reducer-sleeve-12mm-x-14mm-x-19mm-part-70-52-11-427-0/132134281822?hash=item1ec3d1225e:g:0WUAAOSw2gxY0cB z&vxp=mtr

The question I have is they state these are for motorcycle shocks. Not sure if it matters or not, but is a bit of a concern.

OldWest
01-08-2018, 05:09 PM
Updates:

Kiltym gathered additional info which was posted on the Westfalia subforum.

1. Koni

Vendor website had incorrect info re size of eyebolt bushing areas. Kiltym contacted Koni:

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=616163&postcount=88

[Quote] Koni update on their 82-2434. From a phone call to Koni.

Top is 14.55
Bottom is 12.15

So the Koni fit fine, which makes sense since so many people have installed them. [End Quote]

2. Bilsteins

The regular B4 black ones have roughly 14 top and 12 bottom. The yellow blue B6 described on this thread title are normally 14 top and 14 bottom unless apparently modified or special ordered. Further info is pending from Kiltym.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=615577&postcount=81

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=615718&postcount=87

PATECO
01-15-2018, 04:57 PM
I used the B4 Bilstein 19-064529 which had the correct sizing 14mm and 12mm

Cheyenne
01-15-2018, 05:40 PM
Pateco,

The new shocks look longer than the original, do they compress to the same length? If not you may suffer them bottoming out before you hit your bump stops.

Keith.

PATECO
01-15-2018, 07:55 PM
Pateco,

The new shocks look longer than the original, do they compress to the same length? If not you may suffer them bottoming out before you hit your bump stops.

Keith.

They compress to the same height. The old Monroes were completely shot.

Kiltym
01-15-2018, 08:01 PM
They compress to the same height. The old Monroes were completely shot.

How is the ride compared between the B4's and the Monroes?

PATECO
01-16-2018, 04:51 PM
How is the ride compared between the B4's and the Monroes?

She has 302,000 miles on her, and the Monroes were on when I got her. I have no idea how they were when new, but by the time I got her they were already shot. The Bilsteins were a major improvement.