Factory Warranties and DIY maintenance

I just bought a 2012 Tall 170" with 22K miles; first time in my life with a vehicle under warranty. I've always done maintenance service myself; I even did my tranny service on my T1n.

I called the MB dealer in Littleton yesterday to ask about a few things, and the service manager said if there was ever an issue that needed warranty for the engine/power train I would have to "provide proof" that the right materials were used for its maintenance, and that it was all done on schedule. Is this possible to meet when doing your own oil/fuel filter changes? In other words, am I voiding my power-train warranty if I don't have a mechanic do these for me? What have other folks done to avoid this pitfall?

Also is there anything that could void my emissions warranty (aside from neglect). For instance, are MB dealers fixing EGR Valve and DEF system issues without trying to get out of covering under warranty? Not even sure if these are actually common problems; just some wondering about experiences with emission system issues and warranties as well.

Keeping a written log in the Sprinter's maintenance log book is Step One.
Having dated sales slips for the correct oils (etc) matching (i.e. slightly before, not after) the entries in the log is Step Two.
Keeping a full mileage log (fuel fills, dates, mileages) with interleaved entries for the maintenance operations is Step Three.

YouTube videos or posting here in the forum to mark your progress would be good back-up.
You could be truly over-the-top and save the empty oil bottles....

You may find that it requires the dealer's scanner to reset your instrument panel's maintenance reminders (the "one wrench, two wrenches" symbols). That would certainly establish dates and mileages.

--dick
p.s. did you say this was "used by the dealer" for those 22k miles?
Did *they* put the proper entries in the maintenance book?
If not, have them provide written proof of compliance.

I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but -

I don't see a requirement that the work has be done in a particular shop, but I would certainly keep good records, at least until the warranty expires, just to be on the safe side. Maybe a relevant digital photo or two each time you perform certain maintenance. it sounds like the dealer is being hard-headed about it, but it might pay to play it safe.

Too many people get too worried about too much these days - but then, it's not paranoia if they really are after you!

No, it wasn't the dealer; it had a first owner who didnt follow the schedule exactly, but he did use spec fluid. He changed the oil at 7500 and 17K. And he didn't change the fuel filter yet, so I've gotta do that right away. I didnt realize these fuel filters were going to be 4x as expensive as my T1n's with their non reusable moisture sensors. Lame.

So this would actually work to satisfy the dealship if I had a warranty issue with the powertrain? If I keep detailed records of what I personally do with receipts, etc, that's adequate? Anything have to be done for to maintain the emmissions besides filling the DEF?

Do I actually have to register with MB as the new owner too, for the warranty? I need to take it cuz the horn doesnt work.

General Disarray said:

I just bought a 2012 Tall 170" with 22K miles; first time in my life with a vehicle under warranty. I've always done maintenance service myself; I even did my tranny service on my T1n.

I called the MB dealer in Littleton yesterday to ask about a few things, and the service manager said if there was ever an issue that needed warranty for the engine/power train I would have to "provide proof" that the right materials were used for its maintenance, and that it was all done on schedule. Is this possible to meet when doing your own oil/fuel filter changes? In other words, am I voiding my power-train warranty if I don't have a mechanic do these for me? What have other folks done to avoid this pitfall?

Also is there anything that could void my emissions warranty (aside from neglect). For instance, are MB dealers fixing EGR Valve and DEF system issues without trying to get out of covering under warranty? Not even sure if these are actually common problems; just some wondering about experiences with emission system issues and warranties as well.

Click to expand...

General Disarray.
Without trying to ruffle feathers like I did earlier this week with my blunt post about a DIY service issues. All I can say is that you are stark raving mad to contemplate doing service procedures during the warranty period.

Do you really think that this dealership will honor a warranty if you have had your unqualified hands in it?
Come on be realistic for crying out loud.
Even me an Independent is not authorized to repair under warranty--they and many dealers hate us Independents.

I have SIX V6 engines is in my shop all rejected because the owners did as you did or at least contemplate doing. Service mistakes by the DIY'r threw out the warranty claim, and you may then cry ATTORNEY as many Americans do but they come at $350/hr

I know because I work for one on occasions as an expert witness who has taken on two of the three MB dealers in the Denver Metro area. He didn't win yet he didn't lose; they and MB USA settled out of court. On one engine failure it was a definite bona fide claim, but it was an expensive road to travel to get to that settlement. I spent six hours being grilled by slick attorneys on Blake St about my findings.
All I can tell you is that MB USA and its legal support are a formidable force to deal with, they have legal abilities to sit on their hands while your van gathers dust waiting for a repair. Many have come my way after warranty rejection for an economical solution (if that's at your want) at about $8,500 for an engine replacement.
As for the other five units, two trannys and some after exhaust treatment that sit in my rogues gallery almost all of them can have some questionable DIY'rs contribution that afforded a get out on the warranty claim.

Look its all about $$$$$$$.

When you buy a new vehicle a portion of the dealer invoice is calculated to cover warranty claim incidences. This percentage is calculated from previous territory warranty claims and form part of the dealer support package. If the dealer sells the vehicle in area "A" but moves to area B dealer capture there might even be an amount to cover dealer infringement.
So in short you have already paid for that warranty support when you bought that Sprinter new --so why would you risk that coverage scope to show how good you are at servicing the vehicle while its under dealer capture?

Without going into lots of technical overviews all I can tell you is that the emissions systems on late modern diesels are a nightmare to maintain and repair plus they can result in very expensive fixes. Better have the dealer fix it under the warranty claim after they have maintained it. Then if they refuse you do have concrete slab to stand on when calling an attorney. I can forward Ricks phone number to you in that event!
In short don't go there!

Even me a service professional wouldn't dream of buying a new car without letting the dealer service it while its under dealer capture.
Of course for me it would be a Prius or Chev Volt--BUT if I was to plonk down the green money to buy it complete with the warranty, it would be done by that dealer who come on our local TV telling us how honest he AND his dealership are!!!!-----But some of us know better than believe that codswallop!

Be careful has to be the maxim here.
Dennis

... somebody needs to take a chill pill ...

Do I actually have to register with MB as the new owner too, for the warranty? I need to take it cuz the horn doesnt work.

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At least in the Chrysler days (and they were a subset of Daimler) you certainly had to!
It was explicitly stated in the Warranty book that came with the Sprinter. (see footnote)
(failure to do so lost all of the "normal" Powertrain warranties, leaving only the Federal Emissions coverage)
((i don't have a copy of the current Warranty manual))

linden said:

you are stark raving mad to contemplate doing service procedures during the warranty period.

Click to expand...

Just for clarity: I fully agree with Dennis about *repairs*, but i am (was?) willing to "walk the plank" for "simple maintenance", i.e. doing my own fluid and filter replacement.
But i also realize that i was assuming a modicum of risk (of at least verbal hassles) in the form of "self insurance"

BUT... read the manual about what's (theoretically) done at the "Oil change service" and "Maintenance Service" intervals.
To avoid warranty issues (say, crankshaft breaks (they could blame the oil), harmonic balancer shatters (they couldn't)) you'll be required to show that you did everything in those lists. That you "checked and inspected the belts" (i'm not reading the maint book as i write this, i'm hypothesizing) for example.

The previous owner's 7500 and 17000 fit within the required intervals (10k and 20k, and he only went 10k between those two).
If the dealer is willing to give you a piece of paper saying that they'll cover the warranty from now on, by all means get that paper.

Dealers don't always get it right, either. There was a recent thread discussing how a dealer (doing a 10k maintenance) had not rotated the tires.... yet tire rotation is required to successfully lodge a warranty claim if the tread life falls drastically short of what's expected.

added: I just took a quick look at the 2011 Maintenance manual... it lists (under Additional Service) that *at the first oil change*, you should also:
Retighten nuts and bolts
Rear axle: retighten spring brackets

Was that done by the previous owner?

--dick
footnote: quoting from my 2005 Warranty manual:
2.2.A. Who is Covered?
You are covered by the Powertrain Limited Warranty if you are the first purchaser for use of the vehicle. You are also covered if you are the second purchaser for use of the vehicle, and have paid the $150 transfer fee within 30 days of purchase. See Section 2.2.F for more information about transfer of coverage.
2.2.F Transfer of Powertrain Warranty
To transfer the Powertrain Warranty, you must have an authorized Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep dealer process a "Transfer of Coverage Application" for you. The cost for this service is $150. You pay this fee directly to the dealer. You must apply for a coverage transfer within 30 days from the date you buy the vehicle.
2.2.G. No Coverage to Second Purchaser if Transfer Fee is Not Paid
If you do not transfer the remainder of the 7 year/70,000 mile Powertrain Limited Warranty coverage and pay the transfer fee, or if you are the third (or subsequent) owner of the vehicle, the Powertrain Limited Warranty described in this Section 2.2 does not apply to you.

wmlog said:

... somebody needs to take a chill pill ...

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More e I agree with Dennis on this one why risk it to save a thousand it two over the term of your warranty.

You might as well go to the casino instead.

Just fine a place you trust and once the warranty is up go at it.

Thanks Dick; no the 1st owner didn't tighten the Ubolts, etc. I cant even be sure what oil he used; he just wrote "synthetic 5-40w" (don't get me started!). I'm going to dump it this weekend and fill with spec oil.

Dennis, comments like yours about the more than common DEF emissions issues on these that are what are giving me anxiety attacks while I'm trying to fall asleep; are they they actually common? You actually worked on my T1n a few times; I love you guys. In your experience, does MB consider scheduled maintenance by you ok, just not the lay man? I just bought this at 22K, and found out when I picked it up that the owner he wasn't sure "exactly which oil" he used, but "it was definitely off the 229.51 sheet". I'm going to the dealer Tues for the horn; I might was well just have them do their $180 oil change and $200 fuel filter service. I can do both myself for half that which is what's bugging me.

I might was well just have them do their $180 oil change and $200 fuel filter service.

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For the sake of your own curiosity, you might extract an oil sample and send it off to Blackstone for analysis.
See if they're willing to guess what brand/type of oil it was.
I'd also just consider (or "swallow") the $380 as just a bit more "cost of title transfer"
added: If it puts you solidly under their warranty coverage, it's cheap insurance.

I quoted the 2005 Warranty manual in my previous posting. That was the (available on-line) Dodge manual.
Mine is a Freightliner, and has a couple of interesting changes/expansions:
---------
2.2.F Transfer of Powertrain Warranty
To transfer the Powertrain Warranty, you must have an authorized Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep Sprinter dealer process a "Transfer of Coverage Application" for you. The cost for this service is $150. You pay this fee directly to the dealer. You must apply for a coverage transfer within 30 days from the date you buy the vehicle.
Transfer of coverage under the Diesel Engine Warranty is included in the transfer of coverage under the Powertrain Warranty
-------

If you don't have the appropriate (correct year) Warranty book for your Sprinter, get one from a dealer.
(pick up the maintenance book, too...)

--dick

Good point Dick; thanks.

Dennis, which of the 3 Denver dealers are the best? I'm not opposed to having shops work on it, per se. I happen to live up 2.5-3 hours from the Denver dealerships, and our local yolkal garages don't know anything about these, so I've been learning as I go. I had T1N for 2 years and figured a lot out along the way. I know how to find oil and pour it through funnel into the correct hole, so the oil changes are a bit much to take when I have to drive 3 hours one way to the dealer, ya know?

So now I'm good and freaked out. I called the 1st owner of my van to ask him exactly what fluids he used so far cuz his maintenance manual didn't specify what he'd used (just said "Synthetic 5-40W") and if what he'd used in fact came from the Mercedes spec sheet. We'd gone over that breifly during the sale, and is sounded like nothing to worry about as he sounded like the two oil changes and DEF fills were done correctly. (I don't need it pointed how this is where I screwed up; my self-hate at this moment is at a record high).

Tonight he said he "grabbed some Rotella Synthetic Diesel Truck oil at Autozone, and for the DEF fluid he just got the cheapest one that came in a bagged lined box; they're all the same like windshield washer fluid". Holy Shnikies!

So I'm assuming I can probably kiss my both my powertrain and emissions warranties goodbye. I'm going to dump the oil immediately and get spec oil in there. I don't know what to do about the DEF reservoir; that whole thing is new to me. Can I drain it, and pour the right stuff in there?

I'm sure I'm over reacting, but I figure I should just accept I made a horrible mistake in trusting this imbecile, and irregardless I own this thing now. To late, too bad for me. This could become nothing, or the most expensive assumption in my life.

If you have the dealer perform the 20,000 mile "Maintenance Service" (what happens is listed starting on page 10 in this manual: View attachment 2011_Freightliner_Sprinter_Maintenance_Manual.pdf )
...that will include a drain-and-refill of the DEF fluid.

(it'll also make the dealer's wallet very happy)

I don't bother to follow the DEF debates, but i'd guess that "generic" fluid isn't too bad
(urea is urea, after all...)

As for the oil, well, as long as it was a C4-compliant low ash oil, you're still in the ballpark.
High ash would probably just cause the DEF to cycle a few extra times (and i don't know if it would clear or not... if you're not seeing the DEF fluid exhaust itself between expected maintenance intervals, it's probably still OK.
I have no idea what putting "gas engine oil" into the Sprinter instead of "diesel engine oil" would do.

But i wouldn't panic... (but i'm somewhat of a "trust to luck, but help it" kind'a person)

good luck
--dick

General Disarray said:

Good point Dick; thanks.

Dennis, which of the 3 Denver dealers are the best? I'm not opposed to having shops work on it, per se. I happen to live up 2.5-3 hours from the Denver dealerships, and our local yolkal garages don't know anything about these, so I've been learning as I go. I had T1N for 2 years and figured a lot out along the way. I know how to find oil and pour it through funnel into the correct hole, so the oil changes are a bit much to take when I have to drive 3 hours one way to the dealer, ya know?

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To answer your question about the dealers in the Metro area.
As you know there is one in the actual Denver city limits its caters in my opinion to the "carriage crowd' using Frank Woolworth's quote to Harry Selfridge! (FW Woolworth fame).
That leaves the two remaining, the one about 10 mins driving from my house in Littleton (Ken Caryl area) and the one I buy most of my parts from up in Westminster.
Both of the latter 'DO" Sprinters.

I suppose I have mixed reviews about both of them. The one in Littleton employs guys I know, one young fella on the mobile Sprinter repair is an ex trash truck mechanic. Now I have a certain affinity for trash truck mechs, it shows dedication to the job for obvious reasons.
I have fixed as a youth in the UK and built trash trucks in Iran and fixed them on occasions in Baghdad for Sherkat Amanet Al Aissima.

The Westminster crowd I have known since the Glauser days. More on the parts side and service writers but what I have seen both of them seems to do a fair job of service.

Really its not the guys at the sharp end you have to worry about, its the folks higher up that run the show.
You will never get a clear cut answer on any of your warranty questions, much as you have relayed here on this forum. Everything is circumspect. But wait 'til you have a claim and then the rubber has to meet the road.

I can assure you when there is a serious warranty claim it falls out of the dealer decision making to a certain extent and drops into the lap of the zone rep who authorizes claims through the dealer.

Unless you are Mr Fed Ex or UPS then a different set of dynamics come into play!

In almost all claims the first thing is an oil analysis to establish what has been put into the crankcase, oil reservoir etc.

Shell Rotella has a marker in it , so it is fairly easy to establish if the oil meets the BEVO list.
Other tests can establish what went on just before a failure took place.
All I can tell you is that when a lube failure takes place on a V6 diesel, they just about all rip the crank shells out of their location and tear up the parent crank tunnel. Its most certainly means a new block if it gets beyond reclamation machining. That is $$$$$!

I have just fixed a stifled V6 inlet tract having been run on Syn Rotella. I don't recommend it, neither does BEVO I think. the worst carboned up rig I have ever seen.
On the emissions side you do have the law on your side when it comes to emission related equipment , but again caution when dealing with the dealer on this.

As for shops who work on Sprinters and Benz platforms. Yes most steer away from them.
I am enthusiastic about MB products and tend approach BMW's with disdain. Which of course is a bit awry since Land Rover/Rang Rover products were essentially BMW for about 4 years until Ford then Tata bought them.
I guess its what you get comfortable with. Many shop steer away from LRs, Benz's, VW Audis and BMWs.
Essentially if you have the scan equipment, tools and the knowledge to fix them they become easy to fix. That means investment in equipment. Sometimes mind boggling expenditure!
My missus the pretty one in the back office has stopped cussing about tool accounts.
The last one was an electronic set of torque wrenches, specifically for Sprinters only!
Don't ask how much but it wasn't just an eyebrow raiser!

Just conform to the dealer /factory service schedule, you will just sleep at night.
Feel free to call should you have any comments/questions.
My shop line is 720,344,1877.
I always have time for Sprinter owners.
Cheers Dennis

My buddy's 08 sprinter is f%cked...he got the word from dealer he needs a new engine the dealers hands are tied...no word if anything will be warranty or not. Not positive if he done his own oil changes or not.

My sprinter is in the shop for a exhaust manifold pipe failure, getting warranty coverage has been frustrating, to me the last few dodge dealers left doing sprinters are more than frustrated trying to provide warranty work.

lindenengineering said:

.
In almost all claims the first thing is an oil analysis to establish what has been put into the crankcase, oil reservoir etc.

Shell Rotella has a marker in it , so it is fairly easy to establish if the oil meets the BEVO list.
Other tests can establish what went on just before a failure took place.
All I can tell you is that when a lube failure takes place on a V6 diesel, they just about all rip the crank shells out of their location and tear up the parent crank tunnel. Its most certainly means a new block if it gets beyond reclamation machining. That is $$$$$!

I have just fixed a stifled V6 inlet tract having been run on Syn Rotella. I don't recommend it, neither does BEVO I think. the worst carboned up rig I have ever seen.

Click to expand...

You mean they check to see what was the last oil used in an analysis? They cant tell beyond the last change can they? Btw, how many times was Rotella run through that fouled up engine. Mine has 22k, hoping its not too late for mine.

I have a couple of thoughts about all this DIY/Factory warranty stuff:
I've never owned a car under factory warranty. Most of my cars have been out of factory warranty for a decade or more, with my newest Sprinter (an '06) being the "newest" vehicle I've ever owned. So it's DIY all the way for me. BUT... like Dennis has pointed out, Stealerships and their lawyers are no joke. I've been to court, sued a small company for a faulty product that caused lots of damage to another vehicle I owned. I won... but it still took 2 years and multiple trips from Philly to Chicago to actually collect my money. If the company had been any bigger and had a legal team on staff, I bet I would still be court today (or possibly SOL). Dennis has personal experience with Stealerships, lawyers and DIYers, being on BOTH sides of the issue- representing DIYers and fixing repairs that Stealerships wouldn't warranty. I trust/agree with what he's saying and if I ever have a new car (I doubt it) I'll let the stealership do the maintenance under the warranty period (as much as it kills me to let someone else work on my car).
As far as what I would do if I were you- I would have the stealership drain the DEF and start changing the oil like they are supposed to do at the 20K service interval. I wouldn't mention the PO and I would assume he did the correct services. Worrying about it isn't going to change anything right now.
Good luck and keep us posted!

Here are a few observations and experiences that don't always auger well in the vent of a claim.

Fact one all the major lubricating oil benders can tell if its their oil or not!
They have to for lots of legal reasons.
What I will tell you is that not all oils are the same even though they claim to be!

Again the details or reference to their claims are covered by all the disclaimers you see written on the back of the container in micro type, or on the legal ease documentation they release. All of this has been written by a good corporate lawyer paid lots of green money who often can be seeing eying a new E class the next time you are buying oil for your Sprinter at that MB dealership.
But--Who has time to read all this while you pour in 13 qts of this mystery "yum yum" into your pride and joy.

Whether they will release or analyze a sample for you (the little guys) in the process of implementing a law suit is often difficult. In many cases we get into CONFLICTS OF INTERESTS.
Ask yourself!
How many oil companies want to go toe to toe over you in a court of law in front of that man in a black robe who knows sweet FA about oils, Sprinters, cars etc ; all he his interested in covering his own tail by looking at the preponderance of evidence & opposing arguments /depositions to arrive at a decision(s).
If you have any doubts about this just review the much publicized 1990's legal action of the US versus Ford Motor Company (Explorer platform), Bridgestone Firestone Tire Company and their (Wilderness) range of tires.
In short Ford threw Bridgestone Firestone under the bus when the crap was about to hit the fan!
Was I surprised? --NO!--What did I conclude? Situation Normal!
Its a survival of the fittest and more powerful I'm afraid!
The attorneys always get paid remember that!
To illustrate
Now I have one potential lawsuit in the offing at the moment.
In short Joe Blow has his 2003 Sprinter serviced at a chain lube store.
Joe Blow drove to the east coast from Colorado.
Having got there, his engine suffered a catastrophic failure, the crankcase level found to be more than a gallon low!
My question? Did you check what the oil level was before you set out on this fateful trip?
Answer NO!!!
Why not! I didn't need to it was just serviced by XYZ Lube.
First mistake--It is incumbent on the owner operator to maintain his correct fluid levels---(Ad Verbatum quote I heard a few years ago from that man in a black robe in a Brighton Court CO house!)

Did you check the oil level during your trip on fuel filling/ pee break etc ? NO.

So in short we only have the supposition that an oil meeting something like MB 228.3 minimum was filled. But What!
I speak to Shell Oils--yes we can tell by the oil marker the extent of the dilution since a truck shop topped off the oil (a gallon) when the engine started to go tits up!
This is our lab, ABC Labs who can tell what is the content !
I send them ABC a sample--they suddenly have stopped doing this now that they know the facts and the object of my inquiries, but will forward this to an independent university if I would like.
So this gets us back to the CONFLICT OF INTEREST
In short;
Deflect the inquiry because XYZ Lube franchise buys train loads of oil from us annually.
Essentially why get involved in a silly spat over some fool with a beat up Sprinter and a few thousand dollars.
I could write a diatribe about all this, but all can state is that be very careful about what you put in a Mercedes or many other cars for that matter these days , and be skeptical about advertizing claims, because for the most part its what I know as Puffing.

The dealer has the salient strong position here , and besides when the vehicle is new and under warranty they have all the ASI's and updates, re-flashes etc at their disposal, it takes time for me to get this stuff, usually about 3 years when it all flushed out to the Independents like me who are regarded as the bottom feeders.
Dennis

Re: DIY maintenance then factory warranties

gary 32 said:

GD Happy Father Day,
I have purchased and owned 4 MB vehicles either new or under 5k miles used. No issues ever with warranty claims and I have done every fluid change and all brake work. Say I buy the fluids/filters @ europarts, record the mileage on the receipt, it already has a date, keep em all. When the service manager asks you every insulting question he can construe, calmly answer with your folder in hand and then let him go on with the covered warranty repair but inspect his work and look carefully for collateral damage. Hold him to the same standards.

I would change the oil and DEF fluid now, mileage recorded on receipt, (nothing you can do about the past), keep those others details and concerns to yourself.

Chrysler offered some excellent and affordable all inclusive extended warranty products for Sprinters, you could purchase them anytime before factory warranty end @ 1/2 the price your dealer would sell you the same product for...sure has helped me.

Click to expand...

This reminds me of the first law suit I got involved with here on a 2010 Sprinter as an expert witness.
Dealer conclusion, the owner even showed to Mobil 1 ESP bottles and cartons to the service manager.
After a short tear down--- dealer decision.
You must have started the engine without the oil in the crankcase to do this level of damage.
you then having realized the mistake filled it hoping to cover your oversight.
Not exactly ad verbatum but I have the dealer print out on file in this incident.

Claim rejection #2 2011 Sprinter.
Basically the O ring let go and sprayed crankcase oil out to point critical on a trip to Aspen from Denver. Crankshaft locked up wrecking the block.

Well my hapless customer was told, our investigation shows that you were careless installing the Europart "GEN YOU INE MB" oil filter and sealing O ring. The cap wasn't torqued tightened to 25 NM as indicated on the cap. The O ring rolled out of its groove somehow and leaked under pressure!
We are not responsible, we didn't do this job nor did the cap break due to a defect.
Do any of you have a certified torque wrench to tighten the cap to 25 NM?
As a result his Mobil 1 ESP blew out and coated the whole underside of the van.

One thing I will tell you is that it is hard stuff to remove/degrease.
Maxim
Don't go there under warranty capture!
Dennis

My mom always takes her X5 to the dealer for anything, even oil changes. Never anywhere else. Changes the oil WAY too often in my opinion. Going back to the dealer after three months for a 3k oil change, they said that her oil pan drain hole was stripped because SOMEONE cross-threaded the bolt, and said that it would be about $1500 to repair it (replace oil pan). She argued with them that she only takes it there, but they would not believe this 80 year old woman. So, even using a dealer is no guarantee of imunity.

(end result is my brother goes to the dealership lot and taps a slightly larger hole to fit a common drain plug size, dealer won't do the oil change because they "don't want to be responsible", brother changes filter and adds oil in about 5 minutes in the lot and my mother never has her oil changed at the dealer again)