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Marty
01-29-2008, 07:56 PM
Hope you guys can help us.
Our 3500 2003 started shifting into high gears at too low of speed. ie. 5th gear by 20mph. I stopped it one day to see if the thing would 'reboot' and then it would not start at all. It would turn over fine just no fire. Every so often it seemed to try to fire but then drop back to just cranking.
With the last gasp of the battery it started and we drove back home to a mechanic that I know (he is good but just has no experience with Sprinters) He finaly got a computer to read the codes and found the camshaft position sensor bad and replaced it but now it still wont start at all.
He says it's not getting fuel to the injector pump. He also wonders about some info he got which says the injector pressure is 23,000 PSI????

Any thoughts?:idunno::idunno:

Thanks,

Marty

sikwan
01-29-2008, 09:10 PM
In this thread...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2318

...there are pictures of the fuel filter. It's on the driver's side of the engine. It's not the same as the 2003, but it's very similar.

Are you getting fuel before and after the filter?

If so, then the fuel after the filter goes to the high pressure pump that pressurizes the fuel into the common rail that feeds the injectors. 23,000 psi sounds about right.

You may be getting air into the system. :idunno:

Marty
01-29-2008, 09:15 PM
In this thread...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2318

...there are pictures of the fuel filter. It's on the driver's side of the engine. It's not the same as the 2003, but it's very similar.

Are you getting fuel before and after the filter?

If so, then the fuel after the filter goes to the high pressure pump that pressurizes the fuel into the common rail that feeds the injectors. 23,000 psi sounds about right.

You may be getting air into the system. :idunno:

They changed the filter and I assume the fuel is getting through it. He showed me a 'lift' pump located below and right of the injector pump and later said on the phone he could see fuel in the slightly clear tube from it.

Marty

Aircraft Wrench
01-29-2008, 09:30 PM
In this thread...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2318

...there are pictures of the fuel filter. It's on the driver's side of the engine. It's not the same as the 2003, but it's very similar.

Are you getting fuel before and after the filter?

If so, then the fuel after the filter goes to the high pressure pump that pressurizes the fuel into the common rail that feeds the injectors. 23,000 psi sounds about right.

You may be getting air into the system. :idunno:

Sik,

23,00 psi would probably cause instant combustion....probably the measure is 2,300 psi maybe even 230 psi:thinking::thinking:

sikwan
01-29-2008, 09:34 PM
Did he prime the fuel filter?

Here are some problems that he might be seeing.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16961&postcount=5

AFAIK, there shouldn't be any clear tube on the main fuel line supply. The line going to the Espar heater is clear, but that's on a separate fuel line and it runs off a dosing pump and not the main fuel pump.

sikwan
01-29-2008, 09:41 PM
23,00 psi would probably cause instant combustion....probably the measure is 2,300 psi maybe even 230 psi:thinking::thinking:

Hi AW...I forget what the pressure is right after fuel filter, but in the manual it says it's at 23,200psi after the high pressure fuel pump...

5985

:idunno:

talkinghorse43
01-30-2008, 12:25 AM
Since trouble codes were not read by a Sprinter-specific device, I doubt they were read correctly. Generic code readers don't work well on early Sprinters. The ECM will shut down the engine if a sensor reports a problem that might damage the engine. Perhaps there is a sensor in that state. The early symptoms seem to be limp-in/home mode, so might be the ECM detects a serious problem. Or, maybe the crankshaft position sensor really was bad (certainly a reason the ECM would see as sufficient to shut down) and the code has to be cleared before the ECM will yield?

abittenbinder
01-30-2008, 01:42 AM
Hi AW...I forget what the pressure is right after fuel filter, but in the manual it says it's at 23,200psi after the high pressure fuel pump...

On the 612 engine the fuel feed pressure is measured after the lift pump not before or after the filter- starter speed should yield anywhere between 6-22psi (after the engine driven lift pump) to the high pressure pump intake. Regarding the high pressure pump output pressure-that's a optimistic high max -the fuel rail pressure solenoid controls the rail pressure( high press pump output pressure). Working rail pressure (especially at idle) is much lower than that max. Doktor A

Marty
02-05-2008, 11:18 PM
:thumbup: Finally got our 3500 back from the shop. It turns out the camshaft position sensor was bad (replaced) but they replaced trhe fuel filter and did not prime it well enough. He had an old 'hand pump' in the bottom of the trick box. After priming the injector system with it voillla we have motion.
Thanks for all of the ideas.

Marty

:drool:

:tongue:

Marty
02-05-2008, 11:19 PM
Does anyone have a link to a pictorial of how the fuel system work?


Marty

sikwan
02-06-2008, 01:58 AM
Does anyone have a link to a pictorial of how the fuel system work?

Marty, this is for the NCV3 V6, but the principle is the same.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=456&d=1167306469

Fuel pump (in tank) feeds the fuel filter. After the fuel filter, the fuel goes to the high pressure pump (top left). The high pressure fuel is then fed to the rails (common rail) and to the injectors. On the T1N's, there's only a single rail vs the double rail in the picture above. I'm sure I'm missing some steps like the cooler and distributor, but it's in simplest of terms.

Aircraft Wrench
02-06-2008, 02:22 AM
WOW sik!!

I shoulkd never doubt you! Documentation is fantastic in my world!

I hate to be a pessimist but I think DCM is exaggerating the PSI...maybe Dr A has some more documented data to confirm or deny my disbelief.....

Sincerely yours,

The doubter (!) (;)

Aircraft Wrench
02-06-2008, 02:24 AM
Then I read Dr A's reply after I spewed on Sik.....

Best regards!

Altered Sprinter
02-06-2008, 02:31 AM
This is a more acurate reference to the five in-line it's as simular to the four pot CDi

6115
Richard

sikwan
02-06-2008, 02:34 AM
I shoulkd never doubt you! Documentation is fantastic in my world!

I hate to be a pessimist but I think DCM is exaggerating the PSI...maybe Dr A has some more documented data to confirm or deny my disbelief.....

Doubting and being a pessimist is good. :thumbup: :smilewink: I'm here to learn too. I'm just passing information. Whether it's correct or not is another matter. Kind of like the proverbial "dumb question." If no one brings it up, we would never know the possibilities in the discussion. :smirk:

talkinghorse43
02-06-2008, 03:07 PM
This is a more acurate reference to the five in-line it's as simular to the four pot CDi

6115
Richard

Great diagram! One small correction, though. The recycle fuel line goes back to the filter and the fitting at the filter has a temperature-actuated valve that directs recycle fuel to the dirty side of the filter to warm the filter and after that the valve directs recycle fuel back to the tank.

Altered Sprinter
02-06-2008, 11:39 PM
Great diagram! One small correction, though. The recycle fuel line goes back to the filter and the fitting at the filter has a temperature-actuated valve that directs recycle fuel to the dirty side of the filter to warm the filter and after that the valve directs recycle fuel back to the tank.
Picky,picky:thumbup: I did say 4 pot it's for a 2001 Sprinter TIN this is a simular as to the 5 inline for Low pressure fuel bar sets. US Tins use two differnt 5 inlines based on emssions, for fuel bar sets ranging from 1300 up to 2500
If you look at the V6 Gas version and then look at the V6 diesel you will find a difference between the systems both photos are examples. neither are 100% acuurate but both show the basics of the set up as to Marty's basic request.
Looking at the 5 in-line so far I have 1300..1500..1800...2000..2200 for the same engine but with different fuel bar pressures, based on the vehicles weight configuration speed limitors axle ratios and transmissions, and including emissions standards for different countries.
V6 NCV3 1200..1600...2000 pi Not an easy engine to follow.
Richard

talkinghorse43
08-17-2011, 05:11 AM
Old thread, but that's what happened to me today (no start). Wife and I got back from a 1500 mile trip late last PM (no issues during) and I went out to do a little shopping this AM and it wouldn't start (very lucky it died at home). The way it was acting, I suspected the camshaft position sensor, but to be sure, hooked up the Autoenginuity and found DTC 1354 (camshaft/crankshaft synchronization). Hoping it was just a bad electrical connection, I disconnected the neg batt terminal, took off the plastic cover and broke and remade the connection to the sensor. After reconnecting everything, it started! Apparently, the problem was a high resistance connection to the camshaft position sensor.

Aqua Puttana
08-17-2011, 01:20 PM
...
Apparently, the problem was a high resistance connection to the camshaft position sensor.

You knew some good things to do. Glad it worked. I wouldn't declare victory as yet. Often times these sensors first get unreliable and then fail some time later. That's an observation, not a diagnosis.

Fortunately that sensor is not one of the more expensive ones. As cheap as I am, even I can afford to carry a spare. Good luck. vic

talkinghorse43
08-17-2011, 02:34 PM
You knew some good things to do. Glad it worked. I wouldn't declare victory as yet. Often times these sensors first get unreliable and then fail some time later. That's an observation, not a diagnosis.

Fortunately that sensor is not one of the more expensive ones. As cheap as I am, even I can afford to carry a spare. Good luck. vic

That's why I qualified the diagnosis. Good idea to carry a spare.

talkinghorse43
11-10-2011, 12:53 AM
I had several episodes yesterday of loss of power (<1 sec each -just like the injectors turned off momentarily) when running down the highway just South of Atlanta, so I scanned it when we got to the hotel and found the code for camshaft/crankshaft synchronization again. This time I had a new camshaft position sensor along and put it in this AM. Seems to be OK now.

If the camshaft position sensor was really the problem, then it appears this sensor's input is important when the engine is running, as well as at startup.

Aqua Puttana
11-10-2011, 02:52 AM
I had several episodes yesterday of loss of power (<1 sec each -just like the injectors turned off momentarily) when running down the highway just South of Atlanta, so I scanned it when we got to the hotel and found the code for camshaft/crankshaft synchronization again. This time I had a new camshaft position sensor along and put it in this AM. Seems to be OK now.

If the camshaft position sensor was really the problem, then it appears this sensor's input is important when the engine is running, as well as at startup.
I get them confused sometimes, but my poor memory remembers that the Camshaft Position Sensor CMP is needed only during startup. (Once running maybe the ECM uses the old data to continue running if the signal is lost? That may explain a "hiccup" as an (your?) intermittent sensor causes the data transition?) The Crankshaft Position Sensor CKP is needed all the time.

Wait.... I can stop being lazy and post the info. Note that they appear to show the older design flexplate in the diagram even though the book is targeted for the OM647 diesel. vic

38580

38581

38582

38583

38584

Aqua Puttana
11-10-2011, 02:53 AM
38585

talkinghorse43
11-13-2011, 06:32 AM
The Autoenginuity DTC scan also turned up "P2007 - vorförderdruck überwachung" which I ignored at the time since I didn't know what it was, but a couple days later the symptoms (momentary loss of power) were more severe and eventually the fuel filter clogged light on the dash came on. The only hit on Google suggests this DTC is due to filter issues. So, maybe the symptoms were due to a plugging fuel filter? Interesting that there seems to be a multilevel response from the ECM to a plugging fuel filter - a DTC first and then the light on the dash when the situation is more severe.

Aqua Puttana
11-13-2011, 03:47 PM
That is interesting. At least the early T1N's have a low fuel pressure monitor after the filter. The OM647 engines don't have that.

Funny how so often many of the abnormal power and running problems with these complicated vehicles come back to regular old fuel and boost problems. :thinking: Let's hope that's true with your problem. vic

The Autoenginuity DTC scan also turned up "P2007 - vorförderdruck überwachung" which I ignored at the time since I didn't know what it was, but a couple days later the symptoms (momentary loss of power) were more severe and eventually the fuel filter clogged light on the dash came on. The only hit on Google suggests this DTC is due to filter issues. So, maybe the symptoms were due to a plugging fuel filter? Interesting that there seems to be a multilevel response from the ECM to a plugging fuel filter - a DTC first and then the light on the dash when the situation is more severe.