Are the power differences purely software??

Hi

I've just joined the site (and it looks great) and wanted to ask the forums advice. I remap commercial vehicles and am currently talking to a company that runs Sprinters (NCV3 110bhp mainly), I am trying to work out what the mechanical differences are between the 209, 211 and 213 CDI models. It would appear they are the same engine with the extra power gained by remapping them at the factory is this really the case???. If anyone can help me with pointers on whats different i,e clutch turbo different exhaust I would really appreciate it. Alternatively if there is a link to a part number database for U.K spec vehicles I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.


Thanks in advance

I don't know what "more power" mapping will do when these things are capped out at 82 mph.

Mine has plenty of more power to give, but am limited by the governor...I can't access the power I have.

Hi

De restricting the ECU, to remove the 82mph limit is simple enough. What were doing though is remapping the vehicles for extra economy the factory (in this case Mercedes) have to take into account the vehicle running on low quality high sulphur diesel in addition to the possibility of very basic maintenance during the vans working life, as a result they are detuned from there optimum performance. If you know the working conditions, country of use and the work the van is put to, it is pretty straightforward to remap the vehicle to give another 40 or 50 Nm's of torque and gain a 10% improvement in economy.

kendall69 said:

I don't know what "more power" mapping will do when these things are capped out at 82 mph.

Mine has plenty of more power to give, but am limited by the governor...I can't access the power I have.

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Does being limited to 82 MPH really cramp your driving styleI think the Autobahn has a suggested speed limit of 81 MPH ... perhaps that is where that came from.

contractor said:

Does being limited to 82 MPH really cramp your driving styleI think the Autobahn has a suggested speed limit of 81 MPH ... perhaps that is where that came from.

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In the U.K the driving style on the motorways is sometimes a little eerr "passionate", and driving a van doesn't generally stop you chasing BMW's in the outside lane at 95mph...actually there is a school of thought that suggests its almost compulsory

You're talking about the OM646 engines right? Not much data can be found on them unless it's from MB. Maybe Richard (Altered Sprinter) or someone else has access to this information.

For the OM611 (T1N), one difference was the turbo especially on the lowest version. The turbo was conventional vs the more powerful 4cyl's which had the VTG type Turbo.

I think the the two 4cyl's that have the VTG Turbo may rely on code differences.

Mikey said:

De restricting the ECU, to remove the 82mph limit is simple enough.

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How easy is this? What line of code is it and which part of the ECU does the code gets its input from?

..Does being limited to 82 MPH really cramp your driving style

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Not my style, I LOVE the 82 mph cap, as I know I will ONLY be getting a ticket for 12 miles over the posted speed limit on the highways, otherwise I'd be in trouble.

It's hard to keep this thing off of the 82 as it is.

Mikey said:

Hi

De restricting the ECU, to remove the 82mph limit is simple enough. What were doing though is remapping the vehicles for extra economy the factory (in this case Mercedes) have to take into account the vehicle running on low quality high sulphur diesel in addition to the possibility of very basic maintenance during the vans working life, as a result they are detuned from there optimum performance. If you know the working conditions, country of use and the work the van is put to, it is pretty straightforward to remap the vehicle to give another 40 or 50 Nm's of torque and gain a 10% improvement in economy.

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10% gain in economy? That could be extremely marketable with fuel prices being high. What impact does this have on the maintenance? I don't need more torque, but the mileage is attractive.
Tim

I'll keep out of this one Thanks Guys
Richard

The fuel economy benefit is a red herring: any marginal gain is usually lost through making use of the extra torque.

The main plus is improved tractibility with the torque gain.

Simon

Hi

The fuel saving has been established in a working environment fitted to fleet vehicles covering up to 10k per month, its worth noting that the drivers were not aware that the software had been modified. With driver training and using the additional torque in the way it was meant to be used i.e to change up earlier and use the engine power 10% is very easily achieved. I've been able to confirm that the 90bhp and 110bhp models are exactly the same vehicle the only difference being the ECU map and the badge on the nose (that and more than a couple of pounds on the retail price). The 129bhp model differs slightly in that it has a different exhaust (this is for emissions not power)and the turbo is two stage. Engine and gearbox are the same, you can take the 90bhp to 150bhp playing with the software.

Now my interest is piqued.
Understanding that increased horsepower in an engine could result in improved mileage (have done so with a replacement of a cam in a GASOLINE run 318) and the increase in both could be dramatic, I'm wondering what the increased bhp would do to the automatic transmission. We're already having issues with the time/miles on the fluid being much less than what MB says. Is this the 'maintenance' issue that was discussed?

Tim
(BTW - the 318 was in my 77 Dodge pickup. The cam change was to move torque curve so I could drive highway speed in Seattle without down-shifting. The truck loved to drive above 65. Under 60 I could not maintain highway speed when going up a hill. After change my mileage went up 4 mpg AND I had power to spare. I went somewhat amiss, however, as the friend who had the cam ground for me had contacts inside Crane cams and when I asked him for something that would help, I forgot how much he liked to build race engines. Awesome cam, but much MORE torque than I bargained for. But, I digress. )

Emissions WILL be effected, it is not possible for it to be otherwise. If nothing else, I imagine that NOX goes up. Temp extremes need to increase to improve economy (EGR reduces burn temp, reduces efficiency).

(Tuning strategy?) Fuel goes in earlier, burns hotter/earlier, jacketed temp of cylinder/head might need to go down to increase temperature differential between hot and cold sides of the cycle. You'll find alot of the aftermarket improvements doing these things (remap fuel burn, change air intake to get cooler air in, change out water jacket thermostat, etc.) Even better if you can increase compression a bit (or keep turbo spinning more for volumetric compression, not actual engine compression), as this gives a jump in economy, efficiency, power/torque. But the certain outcome is an increase in NOX...

It is also commonly known that these tuner/chip solutions remap to LIMIT/TURN OFF EGR. If this is the way to increase %10 (and I am certain that it is), then you have just shot the emissions straight into the dumpster. Not too bad if you are the only car for miles (off-road), but we really don't need fleets of NOX blowing diesels in town.

I can understand why Altered... would recuse himself.

Our 82 MPH is an artifact of the ANALOG Needle on the SPEEDO... The computer, and my GPS know that it is actually 79 MPH.

Thanks,
KenB

Mikey said:

Engine and gearbox are the same, you can take the 90bhp to 150bhp playing with the software.

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The biggest increase through remapping a CDI engine is seen on the five cylinder: you can take it from 156 to just under the 200 mark with an air filter and software. Let's be generous and call that a maximum 50hp increase. Torque increase up to 380Nm from 330Nm. That's quite a hike for a remap. The reason is that the engine started life as a much more powerful unit.

The four cylinder units do respond, but not so markedly. You won't get 150hp from the 90hp engine with a remap, friend. Not on any day of the week.

May I ask why the drivers would need training if the benefit had already been seen?

A cynical person might say that's the sort of line a marketing department could use as a convincer.

New NCV3 4-in-line
315 Cdi has already matched the old 5 cylinder engine there are three power sets
The top of the line for the 315CDi is 2.148 cc called a 2.2 L
110 Kw =150 Hp
330Nm @1200-2400 rpm note it is reliant on two-in-line series turbos, with high pressure Fuel pumps modified injector systems. etc.etc for three fuel bar sets, to take this engine well above 150 HP. apart from this,I'm just a sleeper on the thread
Richard

V6 NCV3 135 Kw = 184 Hp can be detuned back wards or retuned to the current V6 setting for 220Hp commercialy available, however not on a standard production Sprinter.
Richard

Two of Brabus 2003
Hartman SP5 2006
AMG run a version
Sprinters are down ratted for a Maxim load limits at 3440 using 18' 19' alloy rims 225/55 R19 high performance tires V6 Gas 354 Lbs per foot 1600-2600 rpm with 310 HP
toys for the boys.





Back to the sleeper zone Of !!!."In Ya' Dreams."
Richard

Cool looking van, Altered

I have one question regarding torque. I know (I feel it every day) our Sprinters have plenty of torque. However, I just went to Mercedes dealer to buy oil and I took a walk around a lot to see what's new in MB world. I was looking at Bluetec V6 diesel 2008 in E320 body. Why does it have 400Nm torque when our poor Sprinter "only" gets 280?????

not fair

Sprinter said:

I was looking at Bluetec V6 diesel 2008 in E320 body. Why does it have 400Nm torque when our poor Sprinter "only" gets 280?????

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400Nm = 295ft-lb

It's more slightly.