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View Full Version : scaner recomed? SGII, Buly Dog, other?


Legwound
04-12-2013, 01:15 AM
Okay I have a 2010 with the basic gage package, not even an engine temperature gage.

I figure it's time to monitor what's going on. I see Scan Gage II come up a lot, and have seen mention of Bully Dog.

I'm not even sure what I especially need to monitor versus what's just nice to monitor.

I'd like to see oil pressure, boost, engine temperature

Fuel pressure would be nice. Anything else I should keep my "finger on the pulse" monitoring?

Is there an advantage of one over another.

I'm not rich but my preference is to buy the right piece, not the chaepest. I'm willing to spend a little more if warranted, but prefer to spend my money wisely.

So how about some suggested options and pro's/con's

thanks, thanks, and thanks

sailquik
04-12-2013, 02:13 AM
Hi Legwound,
With any of the popular electronic OBD-II driven performance monitoring gauge systems you will not get oil pressure.
Your Sprinter has no sensor for oil pressure.
Monitoring boost is good, if there is a power issue, but perhaps the more important PID is the % engine LOaD.
%LOD is a direct indication of the current demand on your engine (at the current RPMs).
Lower RPMs mean lower power, and often lugging along at < the max. torque RPMs results in significantly increased
%LOD which is translated by your ECM to more fuel, more turbo boost, higher fuel and boost pressures and less overall
fuel efficiency.
The best overall compromise (in my experience with T1N OM-647 and NCV3 OM-642 engines) is to run at or above the
max torque RPMs (~2400) and < the max. horsepower RPMs (3250 for the OM-647 T1N and 3600 for the OM-642 NCV3 V6.
I have a Scan Gauge II with the latest firmware upgrade, a Dash DAQ w GPS, and an Ultra Gauge EM.
Never tried the Bully Dog, but beyond EGT (which I do not believe there is any known/specified value (normal/too high) for on a
Sprinter) it gives pretty much the same PIDs as the other 3.
Ultra Gauge EM and Dash DAQ offer more displays, but I can set the Scan Gauge II to read all the same things with the
easy to cycle through front mounted buttons.
I currently use the Scan Gauge II exclusively on a 2012 NCV3 V6 3.0 liter OM-642!
Roger

autostaretx
04-12-2013, 02:41 AM
Here's a current thread discussing the UltraGauge
(there's also the DashDAQ)

me? I have the ScanGauge, but i've got a T1N

--dick

pfflyer
04-12-2013, 03:21 AM
Here's a current thread discussing the UltraGauge
(there's also the DashDAQ)

me? I have the ScanGauge, but i've got a T1N

--dick

Also have a T1n and am happy with the Scan Gauge II to monitor vitals and fuel economy. I am monitoring and following Rogers (Sailquik) reccomendations. Still on my first tank and Scan Guage may not be completely calibrated but I can see an improvement in fuel economy and performance(downshifting on hills and monitoring %load). From other posts the fuel economy buttons on the Ultra gauge are on the back. Sounds like you are not going to be watching fuel economy so it might not be an issue with you. Scan Gauge was easy to set up and has alot of features which I am sure the Ultra Gauge has too. From my research Bully Dog is a programer as well. I was not interested in that and all buttons up front is why I picked the SGII. Got mine from Autozone for $129 with free shipping.
Good luck

gary 32
04-12-2013, 01:56 PM
I have a 2010 with the basic gage package, not even an engine temperature gage. I figure it's time to monitor what's going on and have seen mention of Bully Dog. I'm not rich but my preference is to buy the right piece, not the chaepest. I'm willing to spend a little more if warranted, but prefer to spend my money wisely.


http://youtu.be/v477KF6Ci4c

For the past 5 years, I use this. :popcorn:

Your NCV 3 has 2 factory pyrometers the Bully dog reads both, no extra parts required, egt, #1 is more relevant.
I read 4 functions just like 4 gauges, boost, egt#1, water temp and load supported with a dial and graphing.
I use mine to clear engine fault codes, you can set warning alarms for any parameter, lots of other functions.

surlyoldbill
04-12-2013, 02:31 PM
The bullydog has a better looking screen, and can be modified to show the gauges you're interested in. I don't know about the better or worse compatability of either. I use a blue tooth adapter and an app for my Android device called Torque (free).

Legwound
04-13-2013, 11:59 PM
Thanks to all for chipping in.

Dick (autostaretx) I didn't see the link you are referring to, could you please repost.

Until the last two posts I was leaning towards scan gage 2 but the bully dog display does appeal. A consideration I have to make is for my wife who will also drive. My experience has taught me that interfaces that aren't intuitive will reap anger and frustration that will usually end up pointed at me.

So here is where I reveal my complete acronym ignorance and ask questions that are normally held back out of embarrassment. Internet anonymity has advantages.

What is PID

What is EGT? Exhaust gas temp? I'm new to diesels and boosted engines, can I assume their importance is an indicator of air fuel ratio?

I'm also curious how load is sensed and how it is displayed, torque, other?

What do you display on your android besides what is displayed on the Bully Dog.

I have an iPhone mounted on the upper half of the driver side center console heat vent which would be a great place to display additional info if an equivalent app is available for apple. For anyone interested I'm using a Kuda mount which is really good and available for all popular phones (Kudausa.com)

I'll also likely travel with an apple mac pro for photo processing as one of the reasons I bought the vehicle is to do extended photo trips and windows based computing has always been more work for me even though I use both platforms. So anyway the point of that was that if I needed to delve deeper into issues at the side of the road it would be through a Mac. Compatibility or lack of will also influence my decision.

autostaretx
04-14-2013, 12:45 AM
Dick (autostaretx) I didn't see the link you are referring to, could you please repost.
Whoops... sorry 'bout that...
Let's see... which one was it?
This one? http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22837 (dashdaq)
or this one: http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19539 (dashdaq)

Ah! This one: http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25704 (ultragauge)
What is PID
"parameter identification numbers" ... the code that the scanner puts on the signal lines to elicit a particular parameter read-back.

It's all (overly) explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics

EGT is, indeed, Exhaust Gas Temperature

I prefer the ScanGauge for the fact that its buttons are on the front... tap on one to cycle that line's display through the available 20-odd parameters.
For me, just a line of numbers is more quickly readable than a "gauge"... but if you're looking for trending, a wiggling needle may be your cup of tea.

--dick

sailquik
04-14-2013, 02:05 AM
According to the engineers @ Linear Logic (manufacturer's of the Scan Gauge II, the %LOD reading on a Scan Gauge II is current % engine Load (@ the current RPM) that is being reported by the sensors to the ECM (Engine Control Module or the Sprinter's mail computer that makes all the engine management decisions for you.
So, the ECM takes the current %LOD data and makes changes to the fueling rate (based on your input with the throttle pedal (actually the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) that is attached to the pedal that provides an electronic signal to the ECM telling it you want more power, less power, or the same amount of power.
If the fueling rate increases, you get more power, and the ECM also signals the Turbocharger vane actuator to increase your boost pressure level to balance the increased fueling rate.
AFAIK, there is not currently definitive data as to what EGT is OK, and what EGT is too high.
I'm sure that if there are 2 EGT temp sensors in the NCV3 Blue Tech exhaust system, the data reported to the ECM is processed and goes into the overall data mix that the ECM uses to determine what fueling and boost rates are needed and if a DPF regenerationis needed with the current overall operating conditions.
Roger

Graphite Dave
04-15-2013, 03:39 PM
I use a Scan Gage II in a 08 Sprinter that is loaded to within 500 lbs of its maximum capacity. It is set to read Load,Map,Water Temp and Voltage. The main use of the gage is watching LOD (load). I prefer not to have the engine strain at peak loads where the Map (manifold air pressure) is at a maximum and LOD is at 99%. In my opinion the transmission is improperly programmed in a Sprinter. The transmission lets the engine operate for extended periods at full power and pressure and does not shift down to a lower gear soon enough. So it is an automatic transmission that is not automatic and must be manually downshifted to protect the engine. Sailquik has done the homework to prove the relationship that exists between LOD and fuel economy. Keep LOD reading on the Scan Gage down will increase your fuel economy. I regularly downshift as I start up a hill to avoid the 99% load. I do not bother with trying to watch MPG readouts. Watching Map is not of much use since you have no control of the function. I think it will be useful if you have a power problem and can see that the Map is not in its normal range. Water temperature is important. The Sprinter does not have excess radiator capacity. In 100 degree ambient temperatures and high loads the temperature will rise very quickly. Mine normally runs at 193 degrees with the first electric fan coming on at 205 degrees and the second at 215 degrees. At that point you need to reduce the load. The Sprinter also will run below the 193 degrees in cold weather (even in mild California). I have the optional Espar water heater that I use in cold weather to get the engine up to the proper operating temperature. The voltage also fluctuates a lot in a Sprinter. You can see the effects of using headlights,the dash air blower and the automatic electric air heater. Again it should be useful in troubleshooting if it does not have the normal voltage readings.

gary 32
04-15-2013, 08:41 PM
www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=1

Sprinter Van ECU tune for 350 / Bluetec | RENNTECH MERCEDES
www.renntechmercedes.com/www/node/704

I have used a version of this tune on my 07 for 5 years, highly recommended, no alterations to dpf required.

Legwound
04-15-2013, 08:47 PM
Okay I think I'm good on scanners and will be looking for deals on the Bully Dog watchdog and the Scan Gage II. Looking at the Bully Dog site they have a tuner/monitor for deisels (which after some brief research doesn't work on sprinters). I talked to a tech there and they have a plug in module that does have a custom tune which has lead me to look at tuning, which I think is a whole other can of worms.

From what I've found with searches on the forum it seems to be something unspoken.

Since I plan on driving this sprinter for a few decades I'm thinking a tune that helps mileage would pay for itself. Since I'm in Canada with fairly rigorous emissions testing I'm also thinking DPF delete might not be a good thing. I'll admit to knowing very little on the subject.

So is there any consensus on tunes for newer sprinters or is this a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of situation.

I'm hungry to learn. If this is a verboten subject I'd e happy to take input via private message if anyone wwere so inclined....

thanks

Ace in the hole
04-15-2013, 11:28 PM
Tuning newer sprinters can not be done via the obd port, at least not yet and probably never. It can be done but the only way to tune them is to open the ecu and bench flash it.

They can be worth it from what I read but sending in your ecu and living without a van until it comes back is a pain. You will not find much opposition to tuning on this forum but there is opposition to egr and dpf deletes so don't bother asking a about those.

showkey
04-16-2013, 12:23 AM
Tuning newer sprinters can not be done via the obd port, at least not yet and probably never. It can be done but the only way to tune them is to open the ecu and bench flash it.

.

One other way is the Bully Dog and a few others that jump into the engine wire harness with plug and play box to mod the fueling with no mod to the ECU. May or may not be perfect but it is out there and can be undone in 60 seconds.

Example:http://upscaleauto.com/sprinter_power_module_chip.htm

Ace in the hole
04-16-2013, 11:11 AM
Thanks showkey, I had heard they were working on such units but had not heard they were available for the sprinters. I think I would still prefer to tune the ecu but at least there is other options now.

Tuck5000
04-16-2013, 05:19 PM
Will any of these units reset the 10000 mile service display?

autostaretx
04-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Will any of these units reset the 10000 mile service display?
Short answer: No.

Long answer:
I'm not 100.000% certain, but i'd guess with 99.95% confidence that none of the "OBD only" devices can reset the Sprinter's miles-to-service display.

Remember that the OBD units are reporting a "lowest common denominator" set of messages.
The Sprinter's miles-to-service is very proprietary (i.e. uses some bizarre protocol/messaging to reset to "zero" (10,000)), so it's far outside the non-Sprinter-specific diagnostic scanners.

Consider that the OBD units can only do one thing to the vehicle: clear the error codes.
The miles-to-service is not an "error code", so it's not bothered by that command.

--dick

showkey
04-16-2013, 06:12 PM
This aftermarket scan tool will reset maintenance minder:

http://www.autoenginuity.com/products/oe-coverage-options/mercedes-ei17.html

But it $500 total and uses a laptop...........much more involved compared to dash mount scan gauge and others.

Maintenance service display can be reset with the dash/speedo/odometer buttons or steering wheel buttons.

Legwound
04-16-2013, 08:15 PM
so on the question of piggy back tuners, I've seen the one from Upscale, Bully Dog also has one and I'm fairly certain there will be a few more.

How does one determine if they are any good, and if so which one to buy.

Myself I'm uncomfortable with a bench flash.

Ace in the hole
04-16-2013, 09:26 PM
For bench flashing I would look at rentech or custom spooling. The others would need investigation.

showkey
04-16-2013, 11:16 PM
so on the question of piggy back tuners, I've seen the one from Upscale, Bully Dog also has one and I'm fairly certain there will be a few more.

How does one determine if they are any good, and if so which one to buy.

Myself I'm uncomfortable with a bench flash.


Might have to start a new thread to get others to answer the piggy back questions.........since it hidden in this scan tool thread?????????

Bully Dog reputation with other diesels is certainly well known.

Legwound
04-17-2013, 03:22 AM
Might have to start a new thread to get others to answer the piggy back questions.........since it hidden in this scan tool thread?????????

Bully Dog reputation with other diesels is certainly well known.

I'm not familiar with Bully Dog outside of this discussion. Is that a good or bad reputation with other deisels.

I'll note that the bully Dog piggy back is $500ish through Summit Racing where as others I've glanced at are more.

showkey
04-17-2013, 01:25 PM
I'm not familiar with Bully Dog outside of this discussion. Is that a good or bad reputation with other deisels.

I'll note that the bully Dog piggy back is $500ish through Summit Racing where as others I've glanced at are more.

Well known and good reputation and have been supplying diesel mods for other for years.:thumbup:

Legwound
05-28-2013, 12:21 PM
So i picked up a Bully Dog watchdog and will install within the week. Is the convenient source of key on power under the dash or do i have to feed all the way back to the fuse box?

sailquik
05-28-2013, 12:30 PM
Legwound:
So for the Bully Dog Watchdog you have to supply power?
That's nuts.....The Scan Gauge II; Dash DAQ; Ultra Gauge EM are all powered by the OBD-2 plug/system.
Does the Bully Dog Watchdog NOT plug into the OBD-2 plug and needs a separate power source from the power
that's already available in the OBD-2 port?
Roger

showkey
05-28-2013, 01:32 PM
Legwound:
So for the Bully Dog Watchdog you have to supply power?
That's nuts.....The Scan Gauge II; Dash DAQ; Ultra Gauge EM are all powered by the OBD-2 plug/system.
Does the Bully Dog Watchdog NOT plug into the OBD-2 plug and needs a separate power source from the power
that's already available in the OBD-2 port?
Roger

Looks like the BD has a switch that allows OBD power or line in power according to the online instructions...........not an owner just curious.
I was hoping someone would report back on the BULLY DOG "piggy back tuner".

http://www.bullydog.com/documents/watchdog%20owners%20manual%20v%202.0%20for%20web_2 90.pdf

Legwound
05-28-2013, 03:50 PM
I also picked up a Bully Dog tuner and will report out on that. the install on the tuner looks to be a 10 minute job.

Performance will be another thing. I purchased for mileage benefit

showkey
05-28-2013, 04:19 PM
I also picked up a Bully Dog tuner and will report out on that. the install on the tuner looks to be a 10 minute job.

Performance will be another thing. I purchased for mileage benefit

My interest as well mileage and performance pulling a trailer.

From what I have done the "tough" part of the tuner install is releasing the connector on the passenger side pressure sensor. I released mine to double check the connector style.

Legwound
05-29-2013, 09:56 AM
so back to the question of key on power, is the a convenient source up front close to the obdII port?

showkey
05-29-2013, 11:51 AM
so back to the question of key on power, is the a convenient source up front close to the obdII port?

If you need a key on power source.........the fuse box is directly behind the OBD port and a fuse tap connector could be used............choosing the radio fuse for the tap in should be safe.

Legwound
06-02-2013, 05:53 PM
to respond to the folks curious about the tuner. I haven't installed it as for some reason I can't get the bully dog updater software working properly on my computer.

I'm considering installing as is, but for now am wrestling with trailer brake issues

Legwound
06-03-2013, 10:31 PM
just another updtae. I've ordered myself a replacement computer. I've been having issues with this cheapo 7 year old machine for a while and being unable to install some software (this isn't the first instance nor the only issue). So anyway my shiney new laptop will arrive in a couple of days. I'll update the tuner and install. This will give me a chance to do some benchmarking anyway. I jusdge my mileage (kilomage actually) based on kilometers travelled versus liters pumped in. The result is a mix of city highway and some fluctuation obviously. Prior to installing my awning I was occasionally getting 10kms per liter. With the awning it's dropped to below that.

Anyway, i expect a week's delay prior to installing both my watchdog ad tuner.

Legwound
06-06-2013, 09:03 PM
okay another update

I got my new computer, installed the update software and gave updating a shot. The software didn't recognize the device. So I tried 2 computers (old junker and new frustating Win 8 laptop), 2 cords and an hour with friendly helpful tech support.

Looks like there is an issue with the module and I'm doing an exchange.

BTW I also got a BullyDog watchdog which I was able to succesfully update on both computers.

sigh

Legwound
06-06-2013, 09:31 PM
okay, another update on the updating. I talkked to a second tech and he said that updating the power modules probably needed to be done by them and that my unit was most likley good. So I'm going to install this weekend

I suggested they change that part in theri instructions which explicitly say to update via your own computer with their "Update Agent" software.

Legwound
06-08-2013, 08:06 PM
I started a separate thread for this but thought I'd post here also. Tried tio get to the passenger side head fuel rail connector and ran into a small issue


I'm trying to get to the fuel rail connector on the passenger side of the engine. I assume the connector is at the rear of the head (closest to the passenger compartment).

There is a shroud/cover over the head that I tried to remove. I felt 3 or 4 friction grommets release but the cover held on by something at the rear. I figured excessive force was not the way to go to finish removal and reset the cover, grabbed a beer and booted the computer.

So how do I get that cover off, or is there an easier way to get to the fuel rail connector?

showkey
06-12-2013, 01:16 PM
As a mentioned early I did remove the connector on mine to check the type of connector used. I found the covers to needed to be removed but it was not a problem. I did not remove the oil fill tube because removing the plastic cover on the valve cover was not necessary. Remove the air clear assembly, plastic cover over the turbo and the pressure sensor is at the end of the fuel rail passenger side.

The release clip holding the connector was by far the most challenging.........not hard or impossible but there is a technique to release the connector and it is not in easily reached location. I used a long screw driver to push the release tap on the connector.

Legwound
06-15-2013, 12:33 AM
so I just made a 30 km trip with the Bully Dog module installed.

Ominously I immediately got error code PO193---- Injector pressure sensor high input..

I also noticed a marked increase in the typical diesel knock noise. I'm going to disconnect in the morning and call Bully Dog tech first thing Monday

Legwound
07-08-2013, 02:45 PM
So I've got my Bully Dog watchdog installed and for some reason it's not reading boost.

Is it just me or is every upgrade having teething problems?

sailquik
07-08-2013, 03:50 PM
Legwound,
Do you suspect you have a boost problem/issue?
Boost is completely under the control of the ECU and turbo actuator.
If your Bully Dog system (tune might be a better word) has put your fuel pressure too high
and caused a code, then it may have also changed your boost to fueling rate mapping.
I'd take the entire Bully Dog System out of your Sprinter before it damages something expensive.
If something expensive is damaged, will Bully Dog pay 1000's of $$ to fix it without a lawsuit that
probably costs even more?
Try a Scan Gauge II....it's completely plug an play, and changes NOTHING....just reports the
data that your engine management is developing as you drive down the road.
Not completely passive, as it gets into the OBD-II port to read the data, but it changes nothing,
just reports what it sees.
Roger

autostaretx
07-08-2013, 04:55 PM
for some reason it's not reading boost.
Boost is a calculated result.

Does your pooch report MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure)?
That's what the Sprinter actually *measures*. (Boost is that number less ambient air pressure).

--dick

Legwound
07-08-2013, 06:16 PM
I'll check tonight.

Boost is a calculated result.

Does your pooch report MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure)?
That's what the Sprinter actually *measures*. (Boost is that number less ambient air pressure).

--dick

Legwound
07-08-2013, 06:18 PM
I removed and returned the Bully Dog tuner unit.

What I do currently have installed is their ODBII monitor (Watch Dog), which doesn't modify a thing.

Currently my still under warranty 2500 is running perfectly. I turned on the fuel economy teaching tool on the unit and found no gains to be had in my already fuel thrifty driving habits. Following that I flipped over to the simpler gage functions. I'll look for MAP as suggested in the above post

Legwound,
Do you suspect you have a boost problem/issue?
Boost is completely under the control of the ECU and turbo actuator.
If your Bully Dog system (tune might be a better word) has put your fuel pressure too high
and caused a code, then it may have also changed your boost to fueling rate mapping.
I'd take the entire Bully Dog System out of your Sprinter before it damages something expensive.
If something expensive is damaged, will Bully Dog pay 1000's of $$ to fix it without a lawsuit that
probably costs even more?
Try a Scan Gauge II....it's completely plug an play, and changes NOTHING....just reports the
data that your engine management is developing as you drive down the road.
Not completely passive, as it gets into the OBD-II port to read the data, but it changes nothing,
just reports what it sees.
Roger

gary 32
07-09-2013, 02:15 PM
What I do currently have installed is their ODBII monitor (Watch Dog), which doesn't modify a thing.
I turned on the fuel economy teaching tool on the unit and found no gains to be had in my already fuel thrifty driving habits. Following that I flipped over to the simpler gage functions. I'll look for MAP as suggested in the above post

You can adjust the driving coach feature so that you will fail every time, you need to calibrate your watchdog and enter your vehicle information to get correct readings.

Legwound
07-09-2013, 08:46 PM
I did get the vehicle parameters correct. I took a load of stuff to the dump the other day so my weight was almost exact. My driving habits are already snail like on accell and long coast for decel to the point where I do get dirty looks. There has been more than one occasion where someone rushed by me in a hurry to get to a red light. I do enjoy coasting up beside such folks just in time for a green. Any driving coach gains will be minimal. I have been looking a load and have been manually shifting at time which I've been lead to beleive can add some fuel benefit. I'm fairly certain the driving coach wouldn't be of much help there.

Anyway your post did save me hauling out my printed manual to look for gage parameters. So i see boost is a parameter, which I had set but was getting 0 output. I also see barametric is a parameter but I'm assuming this isn't intake pressure. I'll give it a shot.



You can adjust the driving coach feature so that you will fail every time, you need to calibrate your watchdog and enter your vehicle information to get correct readings.

Legwound
07-09-2013, 08:47 PM
I don't see MAP as a measured parameter. I'll try barometric and see what that produces. Maybe some of the wiser folks here know what sensors are where and what can be displayed.
I'll check tonight.

Legwound
07-15-2013, 10:23 PM
just a quick update. I went through the menus again and re-selected boost, which is now registering. I'll chalk my little hiccup up to operator error.

I'm fairly happy with the unit, appears to be versatile. I have load as my primary (large) display and am learning to keep load as close to 60% as possible as per suggestions for mileage.

I'll post a picture of my install in a day or so