Starting issue..

My 04 T1N just started doing this in the am but not every day.
Turn the key glow plug light goes out but then when you turn the key...nothing. When I jump the truck it starts right up.
I had NAPA test the battery and its fine. The rest of the day it starts right up.
Any ideas?

First check all your battery connections, then all the battery to chassis ground connections.
It's cold and a little damp in CT and a simple dirty connection to chassis ground or a poor connection at the
battery could easily cause this. When you've warmed it up and cooked off the moisture at the bad connection,
it starts fine!
Many times I have helped someone with a "dead battery" or "it won't turn over/start" and a quick twist of the
terminal on the battery or a quick wiggle of a chassis/engine/starter connection (both + and ground) and the vehicle
starts right up.
Nothing wrong with anything, good battery, good starter.....just a poor connection.
Roger

I check those. I knew the starter and battery connections are good since I just replaced the starter. I'll check the grounds to the firewall.

Most likely a loose or bad connection if the battery is good. Mine did this for a couple of weeks even after i changed the battery terminals, the starter connection was on and looked fine but i took it off and retightened it back on and the problem hasn't happened since. its been almost a year. good luck

Also check the ground strap to the engine block, sort of below the fuel filter.

Today it started right up. I'm thinking it'sin the thick harness next to the battery since I moved those to remove the hold downs for it.
I was hoping it didn't start this morning so I could try some things.

Throttlejockey said:

I was hoping it didn't start this morning so I could try some things.

Click to expand...

The Murphy's Law of intermittent problems... I have a very occasional start and stall issue that I have been chasing for over a year. Getting my phone out and trying to take a video of the 2nd start attempt to post on here has always kept the problem from recurring.

Well, still having issues. With a jump it starts right up and will repeatedly start right up. Took the cable off the starter and checked that as well as the solenoid wire. Also tried using a jumper cable ground to the motor mount to see if it was a ground issue. Still no start.

I decided to cross the starter and the starter spun but didn't engage. Weird. Then I went in the truck and turned the key and it started. I'm beginning to think it's an issue with the starter.

I decided to cross the starter and the starter spun but didn't engage.

Click to expand...

Do you mean you sent power to the solenoid, or simply to the starter motor?
If only the motor, you're right: it won't engage.
Part of the solenoid's job is to pull a lever that crams the Bendix gear into the flywheel's gear teeth.

--dick

I crossed the contacts on the starter. Where the positive cable connects to and the stud directly below it. Shouldn't that engage the starter?

Take a hammer and tap the starter next time it does it.
I had the same problem on a GM van one time and replaced starter.
Chad

The starter is less than a month old. That was my next try was to bang on the starter.

Throttlejockey said:

...Shouldn't that engage the starter?

Click to expand...

Not always. Depending upon starter design the Bendix solenoid needs to be energized to throw the gear in (or out depending upon your view of the action) to engage the flywheel.

Throttlejockey said:

The starter is less than a month old. ...

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Brand new or rebuilt? Bosch or other?

vic

The starter is a rebuilt Bosch (supposedly) from NAPA. Whatever it did shorting the contacts, it started right up this AM.

Guess I'll stop and talk to NAPA about a replacement.

I would forget the hammer (for now) and troubleshoot with a voltmeter. The starter relay is the key. It is located under the drivers seat along with the fuses. I would attach a foot long voltage sense wires to relay contacts 85, 86, 87 and 30. In order to avoid shorts, solder small wires to listed relay contacts. Connect wires high up against the relay body so you can still insert the relay in the socket. Make sure none of these wires you add can short to each other or chassis.

#86 should have 12V power. Not sure if 12V is present with ignition switch position 2, or only in position 3.

#85 should be less than 0.5V when ignition is in position 3 (start).

#87 should have similar voltage as #86.

#30 goes to starter motor solenoid. It gets 12V when ignition is in position 3.

If all those voltage measurements are OK, then use hammer.

Note, if you don't want to connect all 4 sense wires, contact 30 is the most critical. It must have 12V when ignition is in position 3.

Cal

Pin 87 is only powered when the key is in position 3
Pin 86 is powered by the Engine Control Unit (so i don't know if it's switched or not)
On Sprinters with an OBD connector, it's powered by the fuel pump, so it's NOT powered if the key is off.
(note also that the Starter Solenoid has two coils... one to pull it in, one to hold it.
(the "pull-in" coil loses power when the main contacts start powering the motor)
If you just jump the battery feed to the motor, you've placed the two coils into a series configuration, so they're (at best) only seeing 1/2 of their normal activation voltage.

Schematic:


Feeding that upper left "pin 3 on C3 of the fuse block" is "S219" in the lower right of this diagram:



--dick

Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably check the relay this week when I get a chance. So 86 should have power in the 3 position

I did notice since crossing the starter yesterday the starter engages instantaneously when you turn the key to the start position. I noticed it was milliseconds slower to engage the starter before I did that. Just noticeable enough to tell a difference.

I've been looking at that schematic, but don't understand the OBD configuration. I think S108 is a voltage source, providing power for both the fuel pump relay and starter relay. I don't believe the fuel pump nor the fuel pump relay provides this power (as you mentioned).

I've looked, but can't find the origin of S108.

Cal

autostaretx said:

Pin 86 is powered by the Engine Control Unit (so i don't know if it's switched or not)
On Sprinters with an OBD connector, it's powered by the fuel pump, so it's NOT powered if the key is off.

Schematic:
View attachment 51485

--dick

Click to expand...

Well, I talked to NAPA today and said I could bring in the starter for another one. I'm going to try that tomorrow and see what happens. I already took it out.

I've been looking at that schematic, but don't understand the OBD configuration. I think S108 is a voltage source, providing power for both the fuel pump relay and starter relay. I don't believe the fuel pump nor the fuel pump relay provides this power (as you mentioned).

I've looked, but can't find the origin of S108.

Click to expand...

My apologies... i should'a chased S108 down, too.

The trick on chasing that down is the "(8W-30-18)" that appears under the S108 reference in the first diagram.
That's the page where it appears.
"S" means "splice"... which usually means a wire goes to more than two destinations (i.e. has 3 or more terminal ends, be they source or sink).
And i fully agree with you: as drawn on the above and following diagram, i can't see how it would work... it appears as if the two relays are in series between the two "control" pins.
S108 must be a 12v power source from somewhere.
Here's 8W-30-18 that shows S108, and the lack of an off-page reference is the book's way of saying "this is all of it" (which doesn't agree with the Starter page (above), which does have an off-page reference, despite showing both BK/RD wires).



Adding to the fun is the 2004 ServiceManual, which has a typo using 8w-30-28 (which doesn't exist) in all of the -18 reference places. The 2003 manual (no in-tank pump) just drives only the starter relay from the ECU, like the "non-OBD" 2006 version.

If i were to simply guess, i'd suspect Fuse 18 .. Pin 1 on ECU connector C2!
That's a "fused engine control relay output", is Bk/Rd, and shows up as going into Pin 86 on the Fuel Pump Relay for OBD systems. (found by chasing BK/RD down the Connector Pinout lists...). It may also appear as Pin 4 on Fuse Block 1's Connector 4.

arrrggghh...
--dick
p.s. added ... arrggghhh squared... so i went through all of the ECU connections shown in section 8w-30.
On page 8w-30-24 (OBD) they show the "fused output" arriving at pin 1 C2 from FB1 Fuse 17.
They don't show a splice on that line... but i'd be strongly tempted (if i were tearing things apart) to see if an ohmmeter thought ECU plug C2 pin 1 connected to the starter and fuel pump relays (when the ECU, fuse 17 and both relays were unplugged, to avoid cross-contamination/confusion)