Gas Vs. Diesel Grooming van- Why Im here.

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
Several members in the forum have inquired about the details and metrics of my wife’s business- pet grooming. Given that this subject is what brought me to the Sprinter Forums I thought I would give some details as to why I made the choice I did to purchase a sprinter based grooming vehicle and talk about the choices I made and the metrics behind the decision.

Prior to purchasing the Sprinter the business was started with a used van.
A Ford E250.

The wife, a classically trained legal secretary had become unhappy with office work and has decided to make pet service her main source of income finding it much more fulfilling than the drudgery of seeking the negative that law work offers.

The first decision was to decide weather to be a stationary or a mobile groomer.

The wife unit had previously owned a pet store in Quebec and was continually disheartened by boxes of puppies and litters of kittens randomly showing up on her doorstep on a biweekly basis by heartless owners not smart enough to spay and neuter their pets. Additionally the most profitable part of the business was grooming. Pet food treats etc. weren’t really profitable and just took up space, and managing employees you can get at the low end of the wage spectrum was more akin to babysitting so the decision was made to go mobile.

I looked at a dozen units and researched for days. There are no van customizers/ outfitters on the West coast., but there was some “stuff” out here to look at.

The majority of the mobile units on the market are 3/4 and 1 ton gasoline vans, some very nice, going from 10-70K but most really worn out beaten down unmaintained junk. There is a smattering of customized trailers and many “shuttle bus” type units converted for grooming. The kind of rig that takes you and 10 people from an airport terminal to a rental car these are mostly very crude (water tank strapped in the middle of the interior they get about 9MPG on the freeway and 7-8 in town)
Then you have the sprinters- not as big as many, but large enough and much more efficient – and expensive than the other options.

Sprinters are an elite class of grooming vehicle. There are 2 main vendors in the space – Hanvey and Wagntales both with very different approaches to the setups – more on that later…both stratospherically priced by comparison think 100K ready to roll with the loaded packages. Extravagant? Depends on how you look at it- is it worth it in the long run simply because of efficiency depends on your perspectives.

Just dipping in – I bought her a used Ford Van in good shape with about 100K on the clock for about 18K and kept and eye on how it went.

The business took off like a rocket going from 0 to fully booked 2-3 months in advance within 6 months but the operating costs for the gasoline based van were as predicted – ludicrous.

Here’s how the Ford breaks down economically – Its like a cellphone, cheap to buy expensive to run.

Mileage in town was about 10-12 and the vast majority of the driving is in town.

Routes are optimized well in advance for maximum efficiency – no backtracking and minimal left turns –it’s well thought out.

Pet grooming at any location requires lots of electrical power. These vans are literally equipped like RV’s with identical components, water, air, heat, fans, but adding high velocity dryers – 3000 watts

The largest expense by far was the generator. A new Onan 7000 Unit I had to buy after 6 months – 8K installed. Ouch. The generac that came with the van began backfiring and refusing to start 1000 hours of use after my purchase. Backfiring in condo complex can get you banned from the property, and no hot starts, no morning start is just impractical as a business solution. The Onan 7000 is a known unit. It’s the same unit every TV van in town uses on a 1 ton chassis (you know - a news crew van ) Thing here is though, it is a single speed constant 2800 RPM genny so regardless of the load on it , it’s revving. This is old school tech compared to the modern RPM/load matching inverter gen technology. Problem is you have no choices, there are no inverter gas gens for mobiles, you are stuck. They roar and they drink - up to 1.2 GPH at full 7000-watt load.


The loads a grooming van pull is “roughly” -

Water heater 1500 Watts
Air con 1500 watts (startup surge 2500)
Clipper Vac 700 Watts
Vent fans – 100 Each X 2
Lights about 30 each x4 (est.)
Water pump about 30-100 watts
Shop Vac – 1000
Fridge - variable
Dryer 3000 watts

Many items need to run concurrently so power saving strategies don't always work out – example in the summer it gets hot running a 3K dryer so you want the air on or just cook in the vehicle now you are at 1 gallon an hour consumption with a gasoline rig.

Net Net the fuel cost was between 200 and 250 a WEEK with the ford, with tons of genny hours over 620 in three months. With major services at 500 hours, and oil changes at 50, and total life expectancy estimated at 4-5K hours this wasn't going to work for me.

(Currently the new genny has less than 96 hours in 3 months. Ill get to that in a bit)

If the gas genset setup worked completely reliably that would be one thing- but it didn’t. Even sparkling new the yester-tech air cooled 7K would start overheating on hot days where you had to park on black asphalt even below max load and shut down. I rerouted the intake and exhaust air as recommended by Onan to no avail.
100 degree days and air cooled gennies don’t go together. The next step was going to be a pressurized water mist system aimed at the air intake plumbed into the fresh tank- great more water mixed with electricity.

No electricity =no business, angry clients, missed appointments, and worst of all that married guys can totally understand –alarmingly HEIGHTENED emotions and the occasional nuclear weapon against mans fortitude - tears…Thing is the business was on fire, this problem needed fixing.

I consigned myself to the expensive reality that the gasoline rig was simply unworkable for me from many standpoints the first being personal consumption, the second being the expense, third being my infinity valuable personal sanctity.
The search for the new diesel rig began.

While searching I introduced a “bridge” strategy to reduce consumption while looking at options the Van was augmented with 2X Honda EU 2000’s running in parallel lifted in an out of the back at each stop.

On a separate note: I already had one 2K unit, as I use it instead of the toy hauler and the motorhomes onboard gennies when dry camping the week between Christmas and New Year at the sand dunes every year with a group of people, I can run 2 full “stations” with one tiny genset all week on 5-6 gallons.

This setup has radically lower running costs, operating and impact costs - about half the Onans at the expense (because of wiring as much as current) of running the air conditioner – a non trivial problem. The other costs was on the schedules and on the body - Lifting the pair 12 times a day in and out of the van was also quit impractical and they also requires refueling at least once with the tiny 1.1 gallon tanks so the van would have to carry on board fuel which is inconvenient at best and dangerous at worst in the summer.

Even if the Hondas would have sufficed they are not meant for sustained high output this business demands, and I ended up going through a set of valves on the older 2K despite normal lash maintenance. First “hard” failure outside of starter cords I’ve had with a 2K in 7 years of camping with them.

Clearly the Ford in general was not a sustainable solution.

With the business generating substantial income the decision was made to start writing checks.

The sprinter-based van was loaded with features that have radically lowered the consumption of the business.

1. An Inverter with a large AGM bank can run all but the dryer and AC. For days when its cool enough to do so (7 of 12 months)
2. Propane based -not electric water heater with an electric backup.
3. A variable RPM diesel genset (RVQD8000)
4. A 5-spd-diesel van vs. 4 speed gas 5.4L Triton.
5. A recirculating bathing systems that saves on water and improves cycle time between animals.

The combined efficiency between these items result in substantial savings.

When not requiring air these systems have reduced gen run time to approximately 2 hours a day (20 min a pet) from 8-10 hrs. a day with the gas rig.

The diesel gen purrs at a low RPM and consumes approx. ½ gallon an hour vs. 1.0 GPH for the roaring Onan.

Also of note: My “micro quiet 4000 on the toy hauler is nearly as loud which is why it gets -2-3- hours per year and I run the Honda 2K almost exclusively when dry camping or with the motorhome.

The sprinters in town mileage is superior- about 15 compared to 10-12.

All these combined technology upgrades have changed the businesses profile dramatically and consumption is now roughly 75 dollars a week – total driving, gen and water heating costs in combined diesel and propane- Vs. the Fords 225-250 a week.

In a 50-week year that’s 3,750 vs. 11,250 in fuel use, or if one prefers the alternate reality of equating every bit of energy into a carbon equation reduction that goes along with it (if you are into those figures.) Consumption will go up a bit in the fall here in So Cal, when AC is 100% of the time and she cant plug in – that’s another thing worth discussing – the whole rig can plug into shore power and has 2- 30 amp circuits.
Unfortunately and understandably even when its geographically feasible (in mobile often it is not) Very few clients “choose the green option” when presented at a discount in this business.

As of this writing there about 4300 miles on her rig, and if you take out the 2K trip from the manufacturer her business has put in about 2300 miles in roughly three months. Roughly computed at this stage about 9200 miles a business year.

Theoretically the normal course of this business will require one oil change per year in the sprinter. A vast difference from the Fords maintenance schedule.

What’s my payback? Well not as rosy as you’d think given the staggering cost of the vehicle. Saving 7500 a year in fuel, it will take roughly 10+ years of savings to cover the 80K delta in vehicles. Hardly a lightning quick ROI, but admittedly the ownership experience with the 2 products are not on equal footing.

Question is will the sprinter be worth in it the long haul?
Are these DPF systems going to be a nightmare in 5 years?


From a personal impact standpoint the answer is a resounding yes.
If I compute it out now, with the new van the overall environmental impact is lower than taking your pet to a groomer given most trips to a groomer consist of ones time plus the consumption and wear of 4 car trips vs. 1 in this scenario and negligible time investment.

The new sprinter converted vans cost was staggering comparatively in the short run.

Worth it? Time will tell. It’s a long road to saving that money back, but I’m doing my part to save the Universe from excessive consumption- and then some.

To the guys that were wondering- I hope this helps.

Uncle Dave
 
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flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
Worth it? Time will tell. It’s a long road to saving that money back, but I’m doing my part to save the Universe from excessive consumption- and then some.

To the guys that were wondering- I hope this helps.

Uncle Dave
I never had any doubt in you, good luck with the business and the equipment you chose to execute it.

Bob
 

david_42

Active member
You've also removed the almost constant irritation of a noisy generator and it's impact on the pets. The fewer strange things going on, the easier it is to work with the animals. That will translate to tighter bookings.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
The most important part of this story: Happy wife makes for happy man. Hope it all works out as planned. Thanks for the very detailed discussion. Please keep us informed as you learn more about your choice.
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
You've also removed the almost constant irritation of a noisy generator and it's impact on the pets. The fewer strange things going on, the easier it is to work with the animals. That will translate to tighter bookings.
Although its my wifes business - you are absolutely correct.

I do volunteer work with her at the shelter as a "grunt" bather and I notice a huge difference in the comparative short time I spend in the rig.

UD
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
The most important part of this story: Happy wife makes for happy man. Hope it all works out as planned. Thanks for the very detailed discussion. Please keep us informed as you learn more about your choice.
BINGO -- winner winner chicken dinner. !!!!!

When mommas unhappy, everybody is unhappy.


UD
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
So what is your carbon foot print with this business, where is the data? :lol:
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
So what is your carbon foot print with this business, where is the data? :lol:
I can tell you one thing about this businesses - it's a lot lower now than before.

I never made a claim I had that data.

Otherwise someone would ask me for the numbers and all the details behind it. Ive looked into deriving number for sheer curiosity sake but there are few standards and all available solutions give divergent data by accounting for different variables.

Although gallons of fuel consumed is a fairly reliable indicator of consumption.

For those needing to know Ive provided enough info - that if anyones really interested they can do their own math.

Hopefully - This thread also answered how one can have a bunch of gennies that you dont actually run because you choose to run a honda 2K instead of something that was built into a used purchase.

Its a real hassle to explain all the details so hopefully Ill only have to do it once.

Thats why I put this in off topic! But it was moved......

UD
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
I can tell you one thing about this businesses - it's a lot lower now than before.

I never made a claim I had that data.

Otherwise someone would ask me for the numbers and all the details behind it. Ive looked into deriving number for sheer curiosity sake but there are few standards and all available solutions give divergent data by accounting for different variables.

Although gallons of fuel consumed is a fairly reliable indicator of consumption.

For those needing to know Ive provided enough info - that if anyones really interested they can do their own math.

Hopefully - This thread also answered how one can have a bunch of gennies that you dont actually run because you choose to run a honda 2K instead of something that was built into a used purchase.

Its a real hassle to explain all the details so hopefully Ill only have to do it once.

Thats why I put this in off topic! But it was moved......

UD
JK :cheers:

I see you have reduced you carbon foot print, and I hope it pays off and makes you and the wife both greener. $$$$

You must have more Sprinter talent then you know and the mod took notice. :thumbup:
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
JK :cheers:

I see you have reduced you carbon foot print, and I hope it pays off and makes you and the wife both greener. $$$$

You must have more Sprinter talent then you know and the mod took notice. :thumbup:
(I figured you were kidding!)

Dave
 

wildimaginations

Wild Imaginations
I have an appliance repair business and usually run about 30k miles per year on my van. I did a comparison between my friends Chevy van and my Sprinter van fuel costs. With him going about the same amount of miles as me, I saved about $10k in fuel costs per year. So for my business, I saved about $40k in fuel costs during the 4 years of ownership.

Have you thought of a solar heater panel for your water supply during those hot sunny days to reduce your energy consumption?
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
I have an appliance repair business and usually run about 30k miles per year on my van. I did a comparison between my friends Chevy van and my Sprinter van fuel costs. With him going about the same amount of miles as me, I saved about $10k in fuel costs per year. So for my business, I saved about $40k in fuel costs during the 4 years of ownership.

Have you thought of a solar heater panel for your water supply during those hot sunny days to reduce your energy consumption?
Impressive.

Thats a lot of driving. Curious is your sprinter a newer DPF equipped unit or an older one?
The newer Sprinter dont get the mileage the older ones do.

There are 2 types of solar, water circulation, and Photovoltaic electric. To make how water work you need decent circulation and that would likely require a different pump capable of higher head/lift.

I dont think I have the roof space for water type solar and even if I did I probably wouldn't want the extra plumbing associated with it. Propane is pretty efficient.

I may try to jam smaller photovoltaic panels in between the fans and the ac unit. This would get me lower depth of discharge between cycles and longer life out of the AGM bank.

Thanks

UD
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
Impressive.

Thats a lot of driving. Curious is your sprinter a newer DPF equipped unit or an older one?
The newer Sprinter dont get the mileage the older ones do.

There are 2 types of solar, water circulation, and Photovoltaic electric. To make how water work you need decent circulation and that would likely require a different pump capable of higher head/lift.

I dont think I have the roof space for water type solar and even if I did I probably wouldn't want the extra plumbing associated with it. Propane is pretty efficient.

I may try to jam smaller photovoltaic panels in between the fans and the ac unit. This would get me lower depth of discharge between cycles and longer life out of the AGM bank.

Thanks

UD
Maybe a heat exchanger from the engine to an indirect fired hot water heater might be a good way to generate and recover waste heat that normally is sent to the radiator? :professor:

The units that are used in homes for domestic hot water have very low standby loss as well?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sup...40,d.dmg&fp=709137ad29e61b32&biw=1455&bih=932
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
Maybe a heat exchanger from the engine to an indirect fired hot water heater might be a good way to generate and recover waste heat that normally is sent to the radiator? :professor:

The units that are used in homes for domestic hot water have very low standby loss as well?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sup...40,d.dmg&fp=709137ad29e61b32&biw=1455&bih=932

Good point,many grooming vans use a radiator tap - but I have concern there as well.

An on demand system consumes to much fuel.

There is much talk of sprinters not running hot enough during in town and short cycles, that Im concerned if I siphon off even more heat I may have an overly cool ride on my hands as well more fluid taps, more places a leak could start.

The propane heat is way more economical than the gas electric and it has an electric backup in case.

UD
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
Good point,many grooming vans use a radiator tap - but I have concern there as well.

An on demand system consumes to much fuel.

There is much talk of sprinters not running hot enough during in town and short cycles, that Im concerned if I siphon off even more heat I may have an overly cool ride on my hands as well more fluid taps, more places a leak could start.

The propane heat is way more economical than the gas electric and it has an electric backup in case.

UD
If you have the tank full of cold water it may take too much heat from the engine, if it is warm or hot, much less. Boilers are not allowed to have too cold of a return line either, usually 40 deg colder return temp. If you were taking from the heater core tap, it is just a bypass, rather then engine cooling? I guess you would need to have a valve that could allow the engine to heat it based on temperature. I could do such a thing myself if I wanted or needed, but if you are not handy that way, the LP may still be the best option?
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
If you have the tank full of cold water it may take too much heat from the engine, if it is warm or hot, much less. Boilers are not allowed to have too cold of a return line either, usually 40 deg colder return temp. If you were taking from the heater core tap, it is just a bypass, rather then engine cooling? I guess you would need to have a valve that could allow the engine to heat it based on temperature. I could do such a thing myself if I wanted or needed, but if you are not handy that way, the LP may still be the best option?
I think while its all under warranty I wont do anything! Van has a 24 month bumper to bumper warranty on all the component from the outfitter and is under Mercedez "gas and go program" that even covers ad blue.

Now back to tinkering..... ( I mod almost everything I own. )

The heater core tap is a good idea- This way the tank- (Its small - 6 gallons I think) would only be fed with water already deemed hot enough to go to the core to begin, insuring that the engine stays optimally warm.

Uncle Dave
 

chromisdesigns

New member
I think while its all under warranty I wont do anything! Van has a 24 month bumper to bumper warranty on all the component from the outfitter and is under Mercedez "gas and go program" that even covers ad blue.

Now back to tinkering..... ( I mod almost everything I own. )

The heater core tap is a good idea- This way the tank- (Its small - 6 gallons I think) would only be fed with water already deemed hot enough to go to the core to begin, insuring that the engine stays optimally warm.

Uncle Dave
Would you mind sharing what the Mercedes service plan cost? I assume you have what they call "Star Service"?
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
Now back to tinkering..... ( I mod almost everything I own. )

The heater core tap is a good idea- This way the tank- (Its small - 6 gallons I think) would only be fed with water already deemed hot enough to go to the core to begin, insuring that the engine stays optimally warm.

Uncle Dave
See, I did not know what you are capable of, but yeah, it would be a good idea after the warranty is up. :thumbup:

I guess most Sprinter owners have some mechanical talent as well as a good appreciation of the engineering?

Best to you and the wife and the biz. :cheers:
 
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Uncle Dave

2013 3500
Would you mind sharing what the Mercedes service plan cost? I assume you have what they call "Star Service"?
Ill have to dig up the data after hours but sure. I remember wincing at the price.

Actually the service was called "gas and go". (or at least one of the documents was) could be that you are correct though.

UD
 

Uncle Dave

2013 3500
See, I did not know what you are capable of, but yeah, it would be a good idea after the warranty is up. :thumbup:

I guess most Sprinter owners have some mechanical talent as well as a good appreciation of the engineering?

Best to you and the wife and the biz. :cheers:
Thanks!

Ive been tinkering with vehicle since my first go kart at 6 and Ive been screwing things up ever since!

Curious though - not a single person enquired about how much money she makes.

UD
 

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