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EZoilburner
03-14-2013, 09:04 PM
Since I bought the vehicle when I start the engine for the first time for the day I can hear the turbo howl for the first few minutes and then nothing. This bother Me for a while and today I installed a pyrometer, boost and oil temperature gauge which in My opinion every diesel should have one, and I can see for the first time that for about 10-15 minutes it will build about 11psi with moderate/light pedal and then after this period of time it will hardly build 3psi no matter how much I step on it or downshift while climbing a hill.

Today I pulled the egr for the first time since I need to drill the intake for My new boost sensor and my Lord that thing had a lot of crude, no matter I read some articles here and with some brake cleaner I removed all the crude and lubed with seafoam cleaner/lube. The egr was very dirty but the lever moved easily and did just as well after I lubed it all. Funny thing is I forgot to connect the egr when I put it all back together and experienced similar symptoms such as when after 10-15 minutes the turbo will not howl or build any boost but this time it did it from the time I started it to the point I noticed something was wrong and stopped to check it out thinking I messed something. The egr is connected now and the vehicle will behave the same way as before, turbo howl for the first few minutes building up to 11psi boost and then after a little driving no more howling or boost on My boost gauge.

Please help. Thanks.

autostaretx
03-14-2013, 10:07 PM
Does the boost stop working during/just after a "heavy load" action, such as passing a truck going uphill at 60+ mph?

If so, you quite likely have a cracked turbo resonator... it leaks under HIGH boost (30+ MAP or 15+ boost), which convinces the ECU to stop trying to use the turbo until you turn off the engine.
Look for leakage below the resonator (tarry deposit on the two hoses under there)... if you have a resonator (i don't remember if the 2003 does).

Lacking a resonator, it could just be a small crack in one of the turbo hoses.

--dick

EZoilburner
03-14-2013, 10:26 PM
Thank You but no, this is a 2003 and it does not have a TR, it doesn't quit after passing either, I will star it cold and I can clearly hear the turbo howling = building boost and then after a few minutes driving I'll be at a stop light in Drive and when I push the pedal it will run as always (no limit on rpms) but there is no turbo howl and now that I have a boost gauge I can tell that means "no boost either". When this happens the egt's will climb faster and higher of course. Obviously there are no leaks from the turbo to the intake or there would be no boost at all. It must be a sensor somewhere I just don't know which one.

surlyoldbill
03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
On my van, it turned out to be a worn out EGR; not the servo motor, but the seal that holds back boost. Requires a whole new EGR. To test for this, make a temporary block-off plug, the same outer shape as the gasket but NO HOLE for the exhaust outlet. Thin piece of aluminum, like from a beer can, works. If you have no loss of boost with this installed, then you have a bad EGR. Get a new one, Dr A says there is no good way to rebuild them.

DO NOT DRIVE AROUND MUCH WITH THE BLOCK IN PLACE, it isn't a solution, just a diagnostic aid.

Also, look for any signs of air leaks along the route from the turbo to the intake; oil stains or dampness. One guy mentioned a blown seam on the intercooler.

EZoilburner
03-14-2013, 11:37 PM
I read about that yesterday when looking for how to clean the egr, when You say "don't drive around much with the block" how much is that? It takes about 15 minutes for the boost to finally quit on this issue, the first few miles I have good boost #'s so there can't be any leaks on the pressure side of the turbo or I would have no boost at all. BTW now that You bring it up, can I get just an O-ring for the hose that clamps to the EGR? There was some oil dripping bellow it when I was pulling it out (before cleaning the egr for the first time) and I'm sure it will need replacing with so much testing to find the lack of boost.

Thank.

autostaretx
03-15-2013, 12:22 AM
I have good boost #'s so there can't be any leaks on the pressure side of the turbo or I would have no boost at all.
When my TR cracked, it only affected me if i exceeded 95% Load (and MAP was exceeding 27 psi (boost 13 psi)).
Then the system would sense that it wasn't getting the boost it wanted, and stopped asking for any.
The ECU light only came on occasionally.

If i kept my LOD below 95%, i could cruise on the freeway with 25 psi MAP (10psi boost) for as long as i wanted.
The actual leak was very small: less than a 2 inch long section of the seam, usually held closed by the rest of the firmly glued connection.

I realize you don't have a TR, but leaks don't have to affect you from the get-go.

Given your symptom, could it be that the turbo is not shutting down when the engine goes to idle?
That would probably upset the ECU, too...

--dick

surlyoldbill
03-15-2013, 01:26 AM
I read about that yesterday when looking for how to clean the egr, when You say "don't drive around much with the block" how much is that? It takes about 15 minutes for the boost to finally quit on this issue, the first few miles I have good boost #'s so there can't be any leaks on the pressure side of the turbo or I would have no boost at all. BTW now that You bring it up, can I get just an O-ring for the hose that clamps to the EGR? There was some oil dripping bellow it when I was pulling it out (before cleaning the egr for the first time) and I'm sure it will need replacing with so much testing to find the lack of boost.

Thank.

I'd say keep it under 20 miles. It may cause other havoc.

Oil drips from the weep hole in the EGR as the EGR starts getting worn out. The intake connection leaked on mine, too. A new O-ring may help contain it, but excessive oil in the intake is the problem, I've found that using Mobil-1 0-40 ECF oil pretty much solves the drippy problem. Mine was real bad back when I used Chevron Delo.

Since your symptom of good boost and then no boost doesn't correlate with a mechanically bad EGR, it's probably a sensor somewhere, maybe the intake air temp sensor, which has been shown to be an issue (on the last plastic connector before the intake manifold). Maybe the MAF is malfunctioning.

If you have an iProduct or Android product, you can use a $30 bluetooth ELM327 OBD device to connect to your product, and use Torque or one of the other OBD-II apps to read info in realtime. Maybe you could set up some graphs to see what else happens when the turbo stops working, such as engine getting to particular temp.

sailquik
03-15-2013, 01:50 AM
autostaretx (dick) has hit on a very key point here.
Boost espisode very often come in pairs..... a high boost episode, trips the ECM and and the CEL light, but the boost drops off and if you read the
codes (with a good MB savy scanner) it will show the boost as being LOW, when the event that triggered the LOW Boost was a HIGH boost.
This is why, if you have a DAD, DRB-III, or MB SDS diagnostic system it's very important to take a look at the sequence of the events.
If you go in and erase codes without discovering what they mean and which came first and set the entire event in motion, you will have
more problems.
I would definitely get a full diagnostic scan with one of the above mentioned devices. Then you can begin to understand what is actually
happening.
Blocking things off, driving around trying to find what trips the problem should be the last resort.
Oh, and since I have never heard a " turbo howl" in any Sprinter I've driven.....2002 T1N OM-612...2006 T1N OM-647....2010 NCV3 OM-642
....2011 NCV3 OM-642....2012 NCV3 OM-642 I find your "turbo howl" very interesting
The Garrett turbochargers simply do not "howl"! And, when driving at speed, the frequency is way up there. A few humans, dogs/deer etc. may
hear the turbo whine, but most adult humans probably cannot.
My guess is there is some other noise you are mis interpreting as "turbo howl" that's actually the real problem and is what is tripping
your Sprinter into LHM.
Roger

EZoilburner
03-15-2013, 01:52 AM
I will get some cleaner for the sensors, does any MAF sensor cleaner work for all? I don't have an android but My wife does I'll see if I can borrow it and buy that bluetooth thing You mentioned, I was saving for the Chinese star scanner but if I end up buying a new egr it will be postponed for a while, crap.

I do have plenty of boost with the engine cold (or off for a while) then it drops to 1psi or maybe struggles to 3psi uphill in 3rd gear at 48mph.

Is there any way to lubricate the turbo actuator (sorry I'm reading a ton of threads searching for someone with a problem similar to mine but most are 2004+) so I can count that out?
How about the intake inlet big O-ring, someone know where to get them? The dodge dealer guy wanted to sell Me the entire assembly from the IC to the Intake, crazy.

Also thank You all for the help and advice, please keep it coming. Understand I have no background with electronic diesels all My knowledge on diesels is from mechanically controlled ones which work like a clock so it takes Me a while to understand some things plus I do not have a real scanner capable of reading the codes on this vehicle. I will be visiting the doktor soon hopefully maybe I will try everything possible that is considered maintenance anyways and leave the scanner for the Pro.

Thanks.

talkinghorse43
03-15-2013, 02:29 AM
...can I get just an O-ring for the hose that clamps to the EGR?

The receipt I have in my records says: from Mopar "5103906-AA O RING NO 7011001"

surlyoldbill
03-15-2013, 03:20 AM
Wait a second, are you sure you're not in a Limp Home Mode (LHM)?
Maybe it isn't the charge air system that's the problem, but some other area that is causing the ECU to put it in LHM.

Also, if you are checking boost pressures, the 2003 turbo is actuated via vacuum, and there are some tales of a vacuum leak causing boost failure. Check the search bar for that.

Aqua Puttana
03-15-2013, 11:55 AM
LHM limp home mode possible causes
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7173

EZoilburner
03-15-2013, 03:48 PM
Bought some sensor cleaner this morning, will see it that changes anything. I may try to pull the IC hoses seal them and put some pressure on one side but since it does build up to 11psi boost with normal pedal I feel there are no leaks. I will also get Me some T's and test the vacuum.

Since I bought the van it always behaved like this and I thought it was normal yet I thought it was low on power, pushing the egt's like that is not good for a diesel I wish I had installed the gauges sooner.

EZoilburner
03-15-2013, 04:05 PM
The receipt I have in my records says: from Mopar "5103906-AA O RING NO 7011001"

Thank You so much :rad:, I just called and ordered two, I can't believe the guy wanted to sell Me a $110 dollar intake hose assembly yesterday :censored:.

EZoilburner
03-16-2013, 02:43 AM
Update: Today I cleaned all the sensors on the intake piping the one on the air filter box, the one on the turbo suction side, and the two after the IC. Since then the engine will start and there will be little to no boost all the time, with 3psi maximum moderate pedal no more 15 minute with normal/good boost. I had to drive to a job site (40+ miles ) and it was all the same then at the end of the day I put a vacuum gauge T'd on the little hose on the booster and at idle I have 23-25HG which is good for a diesel vacuum pump I believe and when I turn the engine off I can see it drop to 0HG in about a minute, I followed the lines and discovered one goes to a little canister filter next to a diverter looking pump (coolant?) on the firewall. I plugged this line and the system holds pressure. The hoses were old but not leaking in My opinion but I replaced them with new ones took it for a spin and still nothing. I wonder what would happen if I plug the line that goes to the canister filter or does the vacuum port shuts off when the engine is running maybe?

I'm a little annoyed after so much work on this thing and still nothing, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks.

surlyoldbill
03-16-2013, 02:57 AM
Cause and effect; I wonder if the MAF is screwy.
Have you downloaded the 2003 shop manual yet? Available on this site somewhere.

talkinghorse43
03-16-2013, 03:02 AM
The position of the turbo vanes controlling the exhaust gas flow entering the turbine side (hot) of the turbo is controlled by a vacuum solenoid located under the air filter box. A rubber vacuum tube connects the business end of this solenoid to a positioner mounted on the turbo. This tube is easily seen from underneath and is connected to the bottom of the turbo. I would Tee into that line and run a hose into the cab so I could see the vacuum as I drive. If the vacuum varies (as it should to control vane position), then I would suspect a turbo vane positioner problem. If it does not vary, then either the vacuum solenoid is bad, or it is not being "asked" to vary vacuum.

sailquik
03-16-2013, 03:15 AM
EZOilBurner,
Have you looked at the turbocharger actuator linkage?
The little bell crank on the front side of the hot rear chamber of your turbocharger
needs to be moving when the actuator valving opens the bellows chamber to vacuum to
increase your boost level.
In normal operation, if you have someone rev the engine (even sitting parked with the emergency
brake on) you will see the actuator link (with the little ball/socket joint on the top) push or pull (I forget which
on a T1N OM-612) the bellcrank that moves the gear ring inside your turbocharger. When the gear ring
turns, it operates the gears on the variable vanes to increase the amount of exhaust gas flow that is diverted
into the hot side turbocharger bucket wheel.
Normally the bell crank will move away from the "at rest" position as the ECM signals the vacuum valving in the
actuator that more boost is required. The bell crank will turn probably 60 degrees, then settle back a little and will
not return to the at rest/idle/engine off positon until you release the throttle and all the load comes off your engine.
If the linkage, or the bell crank are not moving, and you have good vacuum then you may need to repair or replace
the actuator itself.
Carefully take the turbo end ball/socket joint off and ensure that the vane ring turns freely when you operate the
bell crank by hand.
Also push/pull slightly on the link to ensure that it's not frozen or sticking on the actuator end.
Also check all the other vacuum lines (to the brake booster and windshield wipers (?) to ensure that the vacuum you
have is getting to the actuator and not leaking off somwhere else in your system.
Roger

autostaretx
03-16-2013, 05:43 PM
I followed the lines and discovered one goes to a little canister filter next to a diverter looking pump (coolant?) on the firewall
Was that perhaps the air filter that the turbo actuator uses to supply clean air to mix with the regular vacuum?
(that's how the actuator adjusts the vacuum amount that the turbo solenoid sees...)
Item 8 in this diagram:

51167

--dick

EZoilburner
03-16-2013, 11:59 PM
The position of the turbo vanes controlling the exhaust gas flow entering the turbine side (hot) of the turbo is controlled by a vacuum solenoid located under the air filter box. A rubber vacuum tube connects the business end of this solenoid to a positioner mounted on the turbo. This tube is easily seen from underneath and is connected to the bottom of the turbo. I would Tee into that line and run a hose into the cab so I could see the vacuum as I drive. If the vacuum varies (as it should to control vane position), then I would suspect a turbo vane positioner problem. If it does not vary, then either the vacuum solenoid is bad, or it is not being "asked" to vary vacuum.

Thank You for this, I did the T right at the turbo actuator line and although I have plenty of vacuum at the brake booster, after a few feet the vacuum on the actuator line went down to almost zero so I drove it for a couple of miles and thought about that other line going to a canister filter so I pulled out the line and plugged it with a rubber cap. Now I can hear the turbo spool up and get boost quite fast, on most hills going up with medium to hard pedal I could get it up to 23psi and I would slow down bc I just don't know how high this should go up to and don't really feel like breaking something. Otherwise most of the time it stayed around 10-12psi with light to medium pedal effort. How much psi is too much for one of this?

Does this mean the vacuum solenoid is at fault and should be replaced with a new one or is there still something else telling it to loose vacuum? Please advise.

Thanks.

sailquik
03-17-2013, 12:13 AM
EZoilburner,
What scale are you using to measure your boost pressure.....PSIG (Gauge) or PSIA (Absolute)
Sounds like you are using PSIG and if so, you should not see more than about 23 PSIG Max.....ever.
It also sounds like you still have a vacuum leak somewhere that is bleeding off the vacuum before it reaches the
turbocharger actuator (vacuum powered in OM-612 ('02-'03) NAFTA Dodge and Freightliner Sprinters).
You won't break anything, with too much boost pressure, but the ECM will throw a high boost code and put you in LHM.
You could burst a hose, or cause one of your hoses to blow/pop off it's fitting, but that's about the extent of the damage
that overboost for short periods of time can create.
Much better to look at your boost gauge rather than listening for the turbo. If you can hear it, you have exceptional hearing in the
higher frequencies.
Sounds like the vacuum switching valve in your actuator may be causing you some problems.
Somewhere, you can purchase the vaacuum powered actuator separately, but virtually all dealers will only sell you an entire
turbocharger as that is what Mercedes/Dodge/Freightliner and Garrett Turbochargers recommend as it ensures the turbo and
actuator are tested together.
Do you have your old turbochargers (the ones that failed) or did you have to turn them in for an exchange?
If you have them, you may have another vacuum powered actuator and the vacuum control valve assembly.
Roger

EZoilburner
03-17-2013, 12:51 AM
What turbos? I still have the same turbo and everything, all I did was plug the discharge hose from the vacuum solenoid (http://europarts-sd.com/pressureregulatorvalve2002-2003.asp) (see link) and the turbo was actuator was able to get the turbo to build some boost which I measure with a digital old fashioned boost gauge a simple sensor on the intake shows the boost produced by the turbo on the gauge measured in PSI in this case I never got it past 23ppsi and I was pushing the go pedal pretty good yet not flooring it. The vacuum stayed at 25-27HG never less at any moment so there can't be a vacuum leak, the leak was at the vacuum solenoid discharge hose. The EGT was moderate and never a concern staying under 800F on hills and 400f normal driving.

I believe the solenoid needs the discharge hose so it can control the boost at all times which for now is controlled only by My foot. So is 23psi the limit then? I don't want to go too high or it could also blow a head gasket and that can prove to be expensive.

All in all nice to have good power and well controlled egt's.

Should I buy just the vacuum solenoid then?

Thanks.

Aqua Puttana
03-17-2013, 01:11 AM
...
Should I buy just the vacuum solenoid then?

Thanks.
IF you are using a mechanical or digital direct read gauge tapped into the intake manifold as I have, 21 - 23 PSI is a typical number after settling out when under heavy acceleration for my 2004. I have a different control (motorized) and different turbo, but the numbers sound similar. I often see a small spike to a bit above the 21 and then it settles to just above 20 psi direct read.

Were I you, I would try to condense what you have done, complete with readings, and either call Doktor A or PM Eric Experience and see what they have to say. Either should be able to help you determine a repair direction. Eric highly recommends using a vacuum gauge when troubleshooting the vacuum control turbos.

Good luck. vic

EZoilburner
03-17-2013, 01:57 AM
IF you are using a mechanical or digital direct read gauge tapped into the intake manifold as I have, 21 - 23 PSI is a typical number after settling out when under heavy acceleration for my 2004. I have a different control (motorized) and different turbo, but the numbers sound similar. I often see a small spike to a bit above the 21 and then it settles to just above 20 psi direct read.

Were I you, I would try to condense what you have done, complete with readings, and either call Doktor A or PM Eric Experience and see what they have to say. Either should be able to help you determine a repair direction. Eric highly recommends using a vacuum gauge when troubleshooting the vacuum control turbos.

Good luck. vic

I called the doktor but it takes some time to hear back, thank you for the information it helps to know I wasn't pushing it too hard besides I was more worried about high EGT's which can kill an engine a lot faster.
Btw I used a vacuum gauge plugged to a T connected directly to the hose that is routed to the turbo actuator or whatever artifact is used to close the vanes and get the turbo to start spinning it read 25HG almost all the time except some times it go up to 27HG but no more.

Thanks.

surlyoldbill
03-17-2013, 02:47 AM
I think I remember someone mentioning the canister can develop a leak, but I'm not certain.

talkinghorse43
03-17-2013, 03:49 PM
Should I buy just the vacuum solenoid then?

The excerpt below from the '03 service manual shows that a signal must be sent from the ECM to the solenoid for the solenoid to develop vacuum in the tube to the turbo actuator. So, the vacuum solenoid could be OK if that signal isn't being sent. If the signal is being sent and no vacuum develops, then you either have a leak, or the solenoid is bad. If it helps, I know that the actuator on mine is fully retracted at idle, so signal should be 12 volts at idle.

surlyoldbill
03-17-2013, 04:20 PM
EZ seems to be zeroing in on the problem, having achieved boost with the re-route.
Possibly that vacuum leak that others have mentioned at the interior/exterior air baffle for the vents?
All new vacuum tubing wouldn't hurt anything.

EZoilburner
03-17-2013, 05:36 PM
I will check for voltage at the solenoid plug, I know there is vacuum bc I have a vacuum gauge T'd to the line going to the turbo actuator and I see constant 25HG but I think the solenoid is leaking said vacuum to through the air baffle (?) or in other words the tiny filter hanging by the firewall. I plugged said line and the turbo works worderfull but I believe I will have to install a new solenoid so it can work with the signal it gets from the ECM instead.
I'll update with the results once I get a new solenoid, Thanks everyone.

autostaretx
03-17-2013, 08:11 PM
I think the solenoid is leaking said vacuum to through the air baffle
Question: does the vacuum improve when you plug that filter? (just the stand-alone vacuum, not when it's asking for turbo).

That filter's job is to provide air *to* the solenoid.
The solenoid oscillates between feeding vacuum to the turbo actuator and/or feeding filtered air to the turbo actuator.
The slices-of-time percentages of air/vacuum control the turbo actuator's position.
(i'm pretty sure the solenoid is driven with a PWM (pulse width modulated, or "bang-bang") signal)

Pure air: one end of its travel, Pure vacuum: the other. 50% air/50% vacuum gives you "half-way" (more or less).

By blocking the filter you're only giving the solenoid "vacuum" on both sides to play with, so you get lots of turbo.
If your primary vacuum circuit had a leak, it would be similar to the solenoid allowing too high of an "air" percentage, and too little boost.

And, as you suspect, if the vacuum solenoid was not sealing that air-side well enough, it would also do that.

keep us posted...
--dick

EZoilburner
03-18-2013, 01:00 AM
Exactly, I removed that line (the one with the little filter) and put a plug on it, since then the turbo will build up to 23psi boost on medium to hard acceleration, the minute I remove the plug it will have zero vacuum on that line all the time even under hard acceleration so in the best interest of My pistons I decided to plug it until I get a new solenoid or scan it and find out what is causing the solenoid to not hold vacuum on that line.

autostaretx
03-18-2013, 03:12 AM
Next question: does the boost seem to perform properly with that filter plugged?

If so, is it merely following the engine-speed-driven vacuum pump, or is it somehow still getting air in there to "feather" the turbo when it wants to?

I would think that plugging that filter would give you full boost, all the time (since all it has is vacuum from the pump, or whatever that plugged line drops to when it is cross-connected by the solenoid).

puzzling
--dick

surlyoldbill
03-18-2013, 03:28 AM
Next question: does the boost seem to perform properly with that filter plugged?

If so, is it merely following the engine-speed-driven vacuum pump, or is it somehow still getting air in there to "feather" the turbo when it wants to?

I would think that plugging that filter would give you full boost, all the time (since all it has is vacuum from the pump, or whatever that plugged line drops to when it is cross-connected by the solenoid).

puzzling
--dick

Yeah, it sounds like the filter, or line between filter and solenoid, has a leak.

EZoilburner
03-18-2013, 03:49 AM
The vacuum at the turbo actuator line is 25HG all the time but the boost grows higher proportionaly to pedal travel and rpms.
The filter can't be leaking bc it is a filter and it just keep debri from entering the vaccum system when the solenoid opens that port to absorb air and loose vacuum and the line is just a hose going from the solenoid to the filter. For some reason the port for the filter on the solenoid is open at all times and when I plugged it with a rubber cap it wont allow the system to loose said vacuum and regulate how much boost it will have given the rpm and pedal travel and engine load. I need a real scanner but I think the solenoid is at fault.
I makes wonder how many without a pyrometer or boost gauge are driving their sprinters with out the aid of the turbo and soaking their pistons with heat and putting so much unnecessary load on the poor engine.

sailquik
03-18-2013, 04:22 AM
OK, EZoilburner.....perhaps you can tell us the genuine Mercedes Benz EGT temperature?
Yes, the Sprinter engines have an exhaust temp sensor, and an O2 sensor on the exhaust syetem, but no where have I
ever seen a specification for normal EGT or overtemp EGT.
MB has the EGT handled some other way and measuring it really makes very little sense if no specification exists.
Instead of reading all the things that your ECM handles for you (and there is no way in a Sprinter to change the way the
ECM handles them) why not look at the important OBD-II PIDs?
% engine LOAD/GPH/digital RPM/corrected Speedometer/Throttle position sensor. All of these are available to any NAFTA Sprinter
owner through the OBD-II port and a Scan-Gauge II or similar. No drilling/tapping of manifolds....actually no modifications at all!
I will almost bet, from the symptoms you are having, that you have one or the other of 2 problems here (or maybe a little of both).
You pretty obviously have a vacuum leak somewhere.
There is a great big round vacuum storage tank/ball on the RH side of your engine. That's your reserve vacuum to run the brake booster
and your turbo charger vacuum actuator. The vacuum pump pulls a vacuum on that tank to give you plenty of vacuum for low speed
operation, running the brake booster, running the heater door flap actuators and I believe the windshield wipers.
Find the leak and I think your issue will be solved.
The other possibility is that the vacuum switching valve that was previously identified and described thoroughly is failing/has failed and
as suggested is not regulating the vacuum/ambient air mix correctly.

EZoilburner
03-18-2013, 11:50 AM
It is just the simple fact that aluminum will melt at 1250F and the pistons AFAIK are made of aluminum, now I don't know the specific about this engine yet like many of You provably do but aside from oil cooling jets if You don't release the go pedal when the EGT goes past that # You enter a danger zone and if it stays above that temperature for too long it will create a hole or heat stress cracks on the pistons and really screw things up. This is a fact for most diesel engines that I know so far but this sprinters with so many sensors and gadgets might have something to avoid it, I personally saw it go up to 1300F for a few seconds while driving up some hills in My area while testing the new gauges readings and had to let go of it to avoid going any further.

Thank to every one here for the advise and help troubleshouting this issue, I really have learned a lot from this forum.

talkinghorse43
03-18-2013, 02:11 PM
Since you're quoting 23 psi boost and you don't have a Scanguage to read boost, but are reading it with a pressure gauge, you seem to be generating too much boost with the filter line plugged. Max boost on mine is ~30 psiA, which equates to ~15 psiG. Probably, the actuator on your turbo is always fully retracted with the filter line plugged (vanes fully "closed") and the varying boost you see is simply a result of the engine's increasing rpm resulting in the ability of the turbo to pump more air than the engine can consume, resulting in increasing boost pressure. I wouldn't run mine with the filter line plugged.

Aqua Puttana
03-18-2013, 04:27 PM
Since you're quoting 23 psi boost and you don't have a Scanguage to read boost, but are reading it with a pressure gauge, you seem to be generating too much boost with the filter line plugged. Max boost on mine is ~30 psiA, which equates to ~15 psiG. Probably, the actuator on your turbo is always fully retracted with the filter line plugged (vanes fully "closed") and the varying boost you see is simply a result of the engine's increasing rpm resulting in the ability of the turbo to pump more air than the engine can consume, resulting in increasing boost pressure. I wouldn't run mine with the filter line plugged.
Good observations. My readings don't agree with your numbers, but I agree with your thoughts.

There is nothing wrong with a mechanical boost gauage. Some people may think that other methods are better, but that doesn't negate the information a direct read mechanical gauge provides. My 0-30 psi gauge will work regardless of any sensor failures. That is not true of a performance monitor device. My intent is not to take this boost discussion too far off topic, so I'm done.

After TH43's observations I took a test run with my 2004 OM647 engine electronically controlled electrically positioned turbo actuator.

I don't see the 21 psi number as much as I recalled. Under acceleration my gauge generally pops up to 20 - 21 psi and then settles back to an 18 psi range. On my mechanical gauge the high teens to low 20's numbers are not unusual to see during heavy acceleration. I see a bit higher numbers than 15 as indicated above.

Cruising I see more around the 10 psi boost range depending upon speed and grades. So I agree with TH43 that the constant reading around 23 psi is an indication that the vanes are likely being held to full boost. I would also not drive my Sprinter in that mode for other than testing.

There has been some history of deteriorated vacuum hoses on the older NAFTA Sprinters. The hoses are not special parts that I know of. Hose is cheap.

I will repeat. At this point I would be tapping the knowledge of Eric Experience on this one. I know he often uses a vacuum gauge for testing so he should have some good input.

FWIW. vic

EZoilburner
03-18-2013, 09:12 PM
Update: Following some words of advise I checked the voltage at the vacuum solenoid/regulator and at idle it shows 10.8V, I ordered a new solenoid in hopes that it really is at fault and I think it is. Will see soon I hope.
TH43 following Your advise I pulled the solenoid and I can blow air in and out from the port used with the canister filter so the solenoid isn't closing and therefore not working as it should. Being the way I am I pulled it apart thinking I could see its guts and maybe fix it but after a couple of caps on each side I could see there was no way to do so for Me.

autostaretx
03-18-2013, 11:40 PM
voltage at the vacuum solenoid/regulator and at idle it shows 10.8V
That's probably not an accurate reading... the Vacuum solenoid is probably driven with a full voltage, but chopped in time, signal.
Here's the page on the Fuel Pressure Solenoid, showing the waveforms.... if you measure them with a voltmeter, you may get the time-averaged value (you would with an analog (needle) meter), or you may get some hashed value due to the snapshot method that digital meters use to capture voltages.

51200

Vic? Do you have a similar set of "how it works" pages for the Vacuum Solenoid?

--dick

Aqua Puttana
03-18-2013, 11:55 PM
...
Vic? Do you have a similar set of "how it works" pages for the Vacuum Solenoid?

--dick
Dick,
Not for the vacuum unit. I do have the scope patterns for the OM647 ECM electrically driven actuator. I have no idea whether the ECM control signals are similar between the OM612 vac and OM647 electric actuator so FWIW. vic


51201

51202

autostaretx
03-19-2013, 12:32 AM
Thanks... those do seem to show that the "high" of the voltage pulse is, indeed, 10.5 volts...
and they also show that it's not always there, depending upon whether the engine's running.
I find it fascinating that it's apparently set for maximum boost with the Key On/Engine Off...

EZoil? I would expect that an unpowered Vacuum Solenoid would simply connect the turbo-actuator-end directly to the open-to-air filter.
When you're puffing and blowing on that part, does the vacuum supply port leak to the air through the solenoid?

When you get the new part, please test the blowing-through-solenoid before installing it to compare to the old one.

--dick

EZoilburner
03-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Yes it comes out the port that says "out" which is right next to the one that says "vac" I will try the same thing on the new one when it gets here.

Btw, following more advise I was given I checked continuity from the white wire (#2) on the solenoid plug to the pin #48 behind the ECM and the wires are fine there is continuity. Btw when I tested for voltage I made a mistake and did so using both wires from the plug when I should have used ground from the vehicle and the brown (#1) wire from the solenoid plug.

Aqua Puttana
03-19-2013, 01:10 AM
Thanks... those do seem to show that the "high" of the voltage pulse is, indeed, 10.5 volts...
and they also show that it's not always there, depending upon whether the engine's running.
I find it fascinating that it's apparently set for maximum boost with the Key On/Engine Off...

...--dick
I noticed that also. A meter on DC would likely show that peak. It wouldn't surprise me if the ECM signals are similar to the two engines. Given appropriate design either the vac or electric should be able to respond. I don't know though, so FWIW.

One might better be able to see a change in the PWM signal by using an AC range rather than the DC. There's so many factors though, frequency being just one of them. vic

talkinghorse43
03-19-2013, 02:29 PM
Thinking more I remembered I had data on the signal to the vacuum solenoid from work I did to show the source of my '02's engine braking. I looked back at that data and saw that the vacuum pressure control signal to the solenoid was 85% at idle (reported by Autoenginuity). If 100% is 12 volts, then 85% is 10.2 volts - pretty close to the measured value. Based on my observations at that time, 85% is enough to fully retract the actuator.

bconover
03-19-2013, 09:02 PM
I'm closely following all the postings related to no boost. I have a 2004 2500, short and low with 145,000 mi approx. The no boost showed once a few weeks ago and then cleared up on restart a few hours later. Lately, there is no boost at all. Turbo actuator rod does not move the vane control but is not frozen top or bottom. After scouring all I could find on removing the actuator I learned that it is NOT under the air filter housing (after a hassle removing that) on my year van. I now have the actuator in hand and want to know if there is an at home way to test it.

From what I've found the #! pin is 12V+, #2 pin is Ground - ,pin #4 is the PWM signal. Has anyone found a test procedure without having a commercial type PWM (I had to look that one up) signal generator (?) using 6V or 9V DC source or some other workaround?

I'm hoping to confirm or eliminate the actuator as the ailing item. Any ideas will help as there isn't anyone with Sprinter repair knowledge close and I'm trying to fix this on my own. I'm retired and on disability and hope not to fix this by throwing parts at it. :) Thanks for any ideas.

Bryan Conover, Pine Is., FL and Centennial CO

autostaretx
03-20-2013, 02:08 AM
Has anyone found a test procedure without having a commercial type PWM (I had to look that one up) signal generator (?) using 6V or 9V DC source or some other workaround?
Looking at the waveform supplied by Vic, you could simply plug it back in to the Sprinter.
With the Key ON, but the engine NOT running, it should go to 95% of Full Boost.
With the engine idling, it should go to 5% (nearly none) of Boost.
That's what i'd do.
(i do have the slight advantage of having an oscilloscope ($35 from eBay), so i could check the signal, too)

After scouring all I could find on removing the actuator I learned that it is NOT under the air filter housing
Where, pray tell, is it? (i'm sure i'll have to go digging someday...)

good luck
--dick

autostaretx
03-20-2013, 02:24 AM
If 100% is 12 volts, then 85% is 10.2 volts -
...but it's not. If you just use a digital voltmeter, i suspect you'd see 10 volts over quite a wide range (perhaps 60% to 100%).
It depends entirely upon the input circuitry of the meter, not (entirely) the signal that's coming down the wire.

Look at the last waveform Vic posted... see the narrow spikes? They're hitting 10+ volts every 6 or 7 milliseconds.
Then look at the previous waveform... the spikes are *wider*, but they're still getting to 10+ volts every 6 or 7 millisecs.
The information being passed to the actuator is the *width*, not the height.

Digital meters work by taking a snapshot of the input voltage every (let's say) half second.
If they use a short blink for that snapshot, they may or may not see the spike or the gap.
If they use a "wide blink" (charge a capacitor, actually), then the reading will be the time-average of the PWM signal (which would, indeed, track the desired amount)
Old-style analog meters with a needle are "always listening" (no blinks).. and the needle's inertia (relative to pulse frequency) does a nice job of following the average.

Vic spoke of using the AC scale on a meter to see the average... i suspect that an AC meter would give a reading of about 1/2 of the averaged signal (or it may be weirder, depending upon how they wired the input stage... they could be running it through a series capacitor (it would show 5v), or they could be running it through a full-wave rectifier (it would show 10v)... those two choices would give two different answers ... you might get other answers, too.

--dick

sailquik
03-20-2013, 02:34 AM
bconover,
I would give Dr. A a call.
He sometimes has used but tested good '04-'06 OM-647 electronic actuators available.
He walked a customer and I through changing out her electronic actuator a few years ago.
He is the best resource....
He may be able to give you some guidance on what to test/how to test.
Does the bell crank that comes out the front of the hot side turbo housing turn easily?
The actuator is not real powerful, so it's good to have the linkage work effortlessly and the gear ring turn easily
and smoothly.
Roger

bconover
03-20-2013, 03:55 AM
Looking at the waveform supplied by Vic, you could simply plug it back in to the Sprinter.
With the Key ON, but the engine NOT running, it should go to 95% of Full Boost.
With the engine idling, it should go to 5% (nearly none) of Boost.
That's what i'd do.
(i do have the slight advantage of having an oscilloscope ($35 from eBay), so i could check the signal, too)


Where, pray tell, is it? (i'm sure i'll have to go digging someday...)

good luck
--dick
I'll reinstall the actuator and see if your tip gives me a clue. The linkage is very free moving (the unit is on my table) and the lever on the the turbo that controls the vanes moves freely and the turbine (?) of the turbo rotates freely as well.
Thanks for the input and I'll give it a try tomorrow morning after morning coffee and the "stupids" have left for the day hopefully.
Thanks, Bryan

Aqua Puttana
03-20-2013, 12:42 PM
...Vic spoke of using the AC scale on a meter to see the average... (or it may be weirder, ...)
--dick
Dick,
Weirder is a good word for that. To be clear. I wasn't suggesting that an AC range would yield accurate or even repeatable results, but it may show enough trend to indicate that the signal is changing. Maybe to the point of correlation to some sort of arm movement. I don't believe a DC range selection has as good a chance of doing that, but...

Quite some time ago I gave away my HP Dual Trace scope. I do miss it occasionally. I hadn't thought about watching eBay and Craigslist for one. Thanks for the hint. :thumbup: vic

talkinghorse43
03-20-2013, 02:23 PM
With the engine idling, it should go to 5% (nearly none) of Boost.

Admittedly not an '04, but my turbo vane actuator is fully-retracted at idle (also 85% vacuum pressure control signal from ECM). Of course, at idle, my scanguage indicates no boost, but my data show that, at higher rpm under load, increasing vacuum pressure control signal from the ECM (more retracted) results in increased boost. Perhaps the fully retracted position at idle is to help deal with turbo lag when power is called for?

autostaretx
03-20-2013, 03:03 PM
but my turbo vane actuator is fully-retracted at idle
...and it's entirely possible/probable that i'm mis-interpreting the "wide=boost (when not running), narrow=no boost" states.
It could well be that its "wide=NO boost", which would also provide minimal back-pressure when trying to start.

Let me rephrase my suggestion to Byran/bconover ... plugging it in and trying the two states (key on, not running versus idle)
should see the actuator move from one end to the other (without committing myself as to which end does what, he could report...).

--dick (empirical diagnostics: let's see what happens when we tweak thi... oops.)

calbiker
03-20-2013, 08:25 PM
I could take some pwm measurements if I knew where the vacuum solenoid is located & access wasn't that difficult. I changed out the air filter on my '06 3500 today and it didn't look like the solenoid is below this filter. Where the heck is it?

Cal

surlyoldbill
03-20-2013, 09:22 PM
I don't think the 04-06 use a vacuum solenoid. I think they have an electronic one.

calbiker
03-20-2013, 10:18 PM
The solenoid is discussed in the '06 Service Manual being located under the filter.

Aqua Puttana
03-20-2013, 10:31 PM
The solenoid is discussed in the '06 Service Manual being located under the filter.

As Autostaretx Dick, or maybe TH43, has pointed out, there are some Sprinter service manuals in the downloads which look like they are for the 2004 - 2006 model year, but actually contain older model information.

The OM647 engine turbo uses an electrically dirven actuator motion. The actuator proper shouldn't need vacuum anything. Are you certain your manual is for the OM647 engine?

When I download a service manual a couple of the first things I check is the turbo operation and the EGR style to try to ascertain whether it is for the OM612 or OM647 engine type. vic

bconover
03-20-2013, 10:39 PM
I reassembled all the items and checked the actuator with key off and key on with no change/movement of the actuator arm - rats. My actuator 2004 seems to be electrical with no vacuum lines attached anywhere, the van. ones might be earlier '02-03. Was running short of groceries so put it all together out of necessity. In another post someone mentioned different rpms for different ailments (I can't find again and forget the specifics) however, my van peaked at about 2800 rpm and could not be coaxed beyond that.
I talked with a company that uses Sprinters for taxi service to Ft. Myers airport and my contact thought it was the actuator as they have had to replace some on their '06 passenger vans. I'll keep trying to narrow possibilities to include checking the input signal to the actuator when I get the time soon.
Thanks to all for the ideas.
Bryan

Aqua Puttana
03-20-2013, 10:48 PM
...In another post someone mentioned different rpms for different ailments (I can't find again and forget the specifics) however, my van peaked at about 2800 rpm and could not be coaxed beyond that.
...Bryan
Maybe this thread?

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17702

The originator posts way too much so it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff... or is that chafe?

If it truly is a 2800 rpm limit then that may point to a fuel rail pressure sensor problem.

vic

calbiker
03-20-2013, 11:01 PM
It should be, but how knows? The VIN Decoding Information Table in the introduction lists the 647 engine, and position 10 of the VIN # (Model Year) as 6 = 2006.

I purchased the manual (Ultimate Service CD 3.0) from ebay quite a while ago.

Are you certain your manual is for the OM647 engine?

autostaretx
03-21-2013, 12:48 AM
I reassembled all the items and checked the actuator with key off and key on with no change
Does a voltmeter show different readings at that connector given the same two test situations?

--dick

Aqua Puttana
03-21-2013, 01:00 AM
It should be, but how knows? The VIN Decoding Information Table in the introduction lists the 647 engine, and position 10 of the VIN # (Model Year) as 6 = 2006.

I purchased the manual (Ultimate Service CD 3.0) from ebay quite a while ago.
Go to the EGR section. If it shows a water cooled connection on the EGR then that is indicative of an OM647 engine. If not, it's likely the OM612.

The above is not a 100% check as to the turbo control, but if the EGR is an OM612 type AND the manual shows a vacuum controlled turbo then it most likely is really a OM612 manual. Listing whatever engine numbers in the first section is easy to edit/add and has nothing to do with the actual manual origin.

Many things between the engines are the same so the manual is not a total loss for you.

Hope this helps. vic

calbiker
03-21-2013, 01:30 AM
It shows the EGR valve coolant hose. So, there are a few errors in this manual.

Cal

EZoilburner
03-21-2013, 02:08 AM
Ok her is an update on this issue, today I receibed the brand new solenoid I ordered and after 3 minutes I had it on the van, I turned it ON and there was vacuum at the turbo actuator line for about 2 minutes and then it was back to zero, the turbo build boost for a few yards and then nothing again. I'm out of ideas for now, anyone near Me have a DAD or a scanner capable of reading codes from the T1N?

Thanks.

surlyoldbill
03-21-2013, 02:55 AM
possibly a frayed wire somewhere along the way, messing with the signals to/from ECU?

autostaretx
03-21-2013, 03:48 AM
Maryland isn't *that* far from Dr Andy Bittenbinder in Pittsburgh....
(although it might seem like it without boost...)

Calling him (again, if you've tried) can't hurt: 412-366-6165

--dick

bconover
03-21-2013, 04:43 AM
Does a voltmeter show different readings at that connector given the same two test situations?

--dick
Where would I check with a VOM meter - what wires going to the actuator do I test? That would let me know if I'm getting a signal/voltage to energize the turbo actuator. Thanks for the suggestion.
Bryan

EZoilburner
03-21-2013, 12:13 PM
I do have boost bc I put the rubber cap on again, I feather the pedal and keep the boost on the low side, with no boost the EGT is high most of the time and the cooling fan engages most of the time.
I checked continuity from the ECM to the plug for the solenoid and it is fine.
I do plan to visit the Dr's shop as soon as He can.

talkinghorse43
03-21-2013, 01:04 PM
Ok her is an update on this issue, today I receibed the brand new solenoid I ordered and after 3 minutes I had it on the van, I turned it ON and there was vacuum at the turbo actuator line for about 2 minutes and then it was back to zero, the turbo build boost for a few yards and then nothing again. I'm out of ideas for now, anyone near Me have a DAD or a scanner capable of reading codes from the T1N?

Thanks.

So, you apparently have been having a limp home mode (LHM) issue all along - the ECM stops "asking" for boost. I believe Aqua has posted a list here somewhere of issues causing LHM. I would look at that list.

talkinghorse43
03-21-2013, 01:05 PM
I do have boost bc I put the rubber cap on again, I feather the pedal and keep the boost on the low side, with no boost the EGT is high most of the time and the cooling fan engages most of the time.
I checked continuity from the ECM to the plug for the solenoid and it is fine.
I do plan to visit the Dr's shop as soon as He can.

Electric fan in front of the radiator, or engine-driven fan?

PS - Seems strange MB would have the engine default to LHM conditions designed to be safe for the engine; while on the other hand you think they will damage the engine. Do you know more than MB about your Sprinter's engine?

Aqua Puttana
03-21-2013, 01:26 PM
... I believe Aqua has posted a list here somewhere of issues causing LHM. I would look at that list.
Post #12 of this thread. vic

autostaretx
03-21-2013, 02:40 PM
Where would I check with a VOM meter - what wires going to the actuator do I test? That would let me know if I'm getting a signal/voltage to energize the turbo actuator.
You earlier cited pin 2 as ground and 4 as the PWM signal... that's what i'd look at.

good luck
--dick

EZoilburner
03-21-2013, 02:48 PM
Electric fan in front of the radiator, or engine-driven fan?

PS - Seems strange MB would have the engine default to LHM conditions designed to be safe for the engine; while on the other hand you think they will damage the engine. Do you know more than MB about your Sprinter's engine?

Engine driven fan.
That is a very confortable way to look at it, but wrong. I don't know more that them but I do know some things and try to live by it just like You do on Your every day life. I don't know a lot about this vans I admit but this isn't the first time I work on a vehicle by any means.

Thanks.

If it was on LHM all along it may be better to have a proper scanner on it, that'll be My next move.

talkinghorse43
03-21-2013, 03:19 PM
Engine driven fan.

Of course, that fan runs whenever the engine runs and is meant to slip some (in the interest of fuel economy) when engine rpms are high and coolant temp is under control. The viscous clutch is designed to lock up and drive the fan at the water pump pulley rpms when the temperature of the air moving past the viscous clutch reaches or exceeds a certain value. I believe this happens when the coolant temp reaches or exceeds ~225F.

surlyoldbill
03-21-2013, 09:14 PM
Since EZ heeded my advice and tried the EGR block off, I'm stumped. I did everything he did, and finally found my EGR to be worn out. I even bought a new vacuum transducer, just like he did, and had the same exact results. It must be a sensor/ECU problem and not a mechanical one.

EZoilburner
03-21-2013, 10:59 PM
Th43 You are right, when I said it runs I meant it locks up.

Btw I even disconnected the EGR for a little while and I noticed the vehicle behaved different slow rpms, etc.

I can't afford buying a scanner right now but I'm seriously considering it as a purchase in the very near future, this vans are really nice vehicles but with so many sensors a scanner is a must IMHO.

bconover
03-29-2013, 03:32 AM
You earlier cited pin 2 as ground and 4 as the PWM signal... that's what i'd look at.

good luck
--dick
As I seem to have somehow deleted my reply - here goes another try. Withe the actuator in place and piercing wire probes with a VOM at terminals #2 and #4, VOM scale set at 20VDC, the reading with key off was zero. Key on, engine not running, 3/10 VDC. Engine running at approx 2000 RPM - 8/10 VDC. These readings seemed low to me so I'm not sure this is the correct test procedure.
I'll try to contact the knowledgeable Dr.A for input and possible replacement part(s) needed.
I have seen companies advertising rebuilding my unit for about $300, with one that gives a lifetime warranty.
I'll let all know what final fix develops. I've been slow getting this done while getting over a dangled sinus infection.
Thanks to you and all the others who have offered their inputs.

Bryan Conover

streetknight2
04-02-2013, 10:26 PM
any update on this? I'm having the exact same problem with my 03' Sprinter. I've replaced EGR, Waste gate solenoid, IC hoses, etc. Nothing.

EZoilburner
04-03-2013, 03:12 AM
any update on this? I'm having the exact same problem with my 03' Sprinter. I've replaced EGR, Waste gate solenoid, IC hoses, etc. Nothing.

Not yet, I've managed a way to get the turbo to build boost and control it manually for now, the engine produces good power with enough boost and the ecm doesn't seem to notice it for now yet, I drove the vehicle many miles since. That isn't a permanent fix and it needs to be scanned to find a code if it is producing one, I'm sure the star scan tool can read the ecm in real time and something (sensor) will single itself out.
I will post results once I get this permanently fixed.

jmoller99
04-03-2013, 12:42 PM
It sounds like it could also be short somewhere in the Sprinter wiring harness. There are a few places that are possible sites of this short - there is one area where the harness is held in place with heavy wire ties that is near (below) the fuel filter. I recall a few other places being mentioned.

EZoilburner
04-03-2013, 03:52 PM
It sounds like it could also be short somewhere in the Sprinter wiring harness. There are a few places that are possible sites of this short - there is one area where the harness is held in place with heavy wire ties that is near (below) the fuel filter. I recall a few other places being mentioned.

Yes, thank You, I've looked for that but I don't see any damage on the harness, should I take it apart? Is the star scanner capable to detect this type of issue?

Thanks.

jmoller99
04-03-2013, 04:30 PM
You likely won't see any damage at all.

----

The metal plate that this part of the wiring harness is strapped to is about 4 inches long (10 cm). It has a tendency to rust - leaving little spikes that can work their way into the wiring harness (issue is on 2002 thru 2006 T1N's). When someone else reported the problem in this forum, I popped the wire ties off and I had the same situation developing.

The solution that the other person used was to wrap some radiator hose around the area (about 4 inches worth) and re-wire tie it in place.

I used some 1/8 inch rubber sheet and did the same thing to mine. I figure it was just a matter of time before I had a problem.

I attached a picture (orange square shows the harness position) of my harness protector. Its right below the fuel filter.

Boater
04-03-2013, 04:31 PM
Insulation test, like a PAT tester or something? I think a megger would damage the delicate electronics but a maybe a modern insulation tester?

autostaretx
04-03-2013, 05:03 PM
Key on, engine not running, 3/10 VDC. Engine running at approx 2000 RPM - 8/10 VDC
Please interpret "3/10" and "8/10"
Do you mean it oscillates between 3 and 10 volts (how frequently, or seems like "jitter" on the meter? (i.e. quick changes, never settles)
or do you mean " three tenths of a volt" ( 0.3 v) and "eight tenths" (0.8v)??

If the "jitter" situation, i suspect you're seeing the meter snapshotting the PWM signal, but with a wide enough acceptance window that you're seeing both the data it's trying to send (3 or 8), interspersed with the meter occasionally seeing only the PWM high pulse (10).

As for "would the dealer tool reveal wiring problems?": frequently.
Among the DAD and DRB-III diagnostics (as well as generic OBD-II codes) there are "XXX signal plausibility", "XXX Signal Voltage Too High", "XXX Signal Voltage Too Low", "XXX Shorted To Voltage", "XXX Open Or Shorted To Ground" and so on.
with "XXX" being a whole slew of possible sensor names and driving signals

If you're seeing what i'm calling the "jitter" signals, i'd actually suspect that they're coming through correctly (although, without the actuator also attached, we can't tell if they have sufficient drive for it to see)

--dick
p.s. for some unknown reason i'm not being offered a "thanks" button for jmoller99's photo .. so here it is: thanks!

EZoilburner
04-03-2013, 07:18 PM
I think is meant 3.10v and 8.10v.

rjl1100
04-04-2013, 10:21 AM
I have a similar problem with my 2002 611 (4 cylinder 2.2litre) engine, it will drive alright and when you go up a hill and revs go over 3000 rpm, there is a sort of pop noise and then no boost/power (LHM) If you leave it for a few hours and then drive it again same thing happens when the engine goes over 3000 rpm on a hill. I'm going to look at it this weekend. All the posts have given me some areas to look at.
Cheers

rjl1100
04-04-2013, 11:39 AM
Found this on u-tube, it may help.
2005 Dodge-Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 2.7L CDI Engine Looses Power, Bad Turbo Actuator.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZvQkROd4Uw

Aqua Puttana
04-04-2013, 12:26 PM
Found this on u-tube, it may help.
2005 Dodge-Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 2.7L CDI Engine Looses Power, Bad Turbo Actuator.wmv
...
Thanks. Nice video.

The video is very good for showing the vane actuator location and operation. The title is a bit misleading though.

When the computer sees a problem and sets LHM one of the things that it does is inhibit the turbo vane operation to reduce the power available. That stops the turbo vane arm from moving as is shown in the video. Just because the vane arm is not moving doesn't mean that the electronic (for the OM647 engine) or the vacuum (for the OM612 engine) actuator itself is at fault. The operation may be turned off by the ECM.

If a key off, restart cycle returns the vane arm operation to normal then I would look to other places than the turbo vane actuator for a problem.

If the arm isn't moving at all then it might be worth checking that the linkage is moving freely. There is some history of those linkages corroding and binding. When I have the heat shield removed I now grease mine regularly with heavy duty wheel bearing grease as a preventative measure. FWIW. vic

autostaretx
04-04-2013, 09:05 PM
Note that the video's author posted:
Actually the problem was in turbo resonator. It was cracked. I fixed it and it works like new now.

So it was a typical "ok when cold, but once the resonator started leaking, the ECU stopped even trying to operate the actuator."

(you can see the message thread by visiting the original YouTube page: http://youtu.be/iZvQkROd4Uw )

--dick

pfflyer
04-04-2013, 11:17 PM
Thanks. Nice video.

The video is very good for showing the vane actuator location and operation. The title is a bit misleading though.

When the computer sees a problem and sets LHM one of the things that it does is inhibit the turbo vane operation to reduce the power available. That stops the turbo vane arm from moving as is shown in the video. Just because the vane arm is not moving doesn't mean that the electronic (for the OM647 engine) or the vacuum (for the OM612 engine) actuator itself is at fault. The operation may be turned off by the ECM.

If a key off, restart cycle returns the vane arm operation to normal then I would look to other places than the turbo vane actuator for a problem.

If the arm isn't moving at all then it might be worth checking that the linkage is moving freely. There is some history of those linkages corroding and binding. When I have the heat shield removed I now grease mine regularly with heavy duty wheel bearing grease as a preventative measure. FWIW. vic

Lubed my actuator today and cleaned out bugs ot of the MAF screen and checked connectors and hoses. I had the post about a benchmark for boost pressure. I havent taken it out on the highway yet but it seems to be reading a few psi higher now. Going to price an O2 sensor as well and if not too expensive go ahead and replace it as well unless there is a way to test. No codes in the Scangauge.

streetknight2
04-10-2013, 04:06 PM
Mine is having this problem intermittently. After watching the above video I checked the waste gate vane. It wasn't moving as in the video.

I went on a couple service calls, got back in the truck and it's running fine right now. Checked the waste gate vane and it is moving now.

Mine does not give any codes. My local dealer hasn't been able to figure it out either.

It sure seems it would be electrical (at least on mine) since it is so intermittent. My condition does not go away by cycling the key on and off. It's just random.

Very frustrating

EZoilburner
04-23-2013, 02:29 PM
Ok I got some codes from the sprinter, here it is P1403-008 and P1403-032. Gas recirculation rate too low and one says something about the actuation arm I have to look again.

The saga continues.

jmoller99
04-23-2013, 03:56 PM
Have you ever removed and cleaned your EGR valve? On the 2002/2003 models, these clog up if you idle the engine a lot (and generally just clog up by nature of the design).

I take mine off once a year (usually in the spring) - pull the hose off - remove the 5 bolts holding it on the intake manafold - snap the plastic cover off (but leave it plugged in and take nothing else apart).

I spray it liberally with Seafoam spray as I clean up the exhaust buildup - there is a plunger under the plastic cover that you should be able to press and have it pop back easily. I spray it until its nice and clean. These are around $600 each to replace, so cleaning it is cheap insurance. Some people use Carb Cleaner (don't use brake cleaner - the mechanicals need to retain some lubricant them).

You can pull off the turbo hose and have a quick look inside to see if its gummed up or not. You can't clean it without removing it.

Your P-Codes imply that the problem is related to the EGR.

Europarts SD has replacement gaskets (but I have managed to reuse my original one over and over again).

EZoilburner
04-23-2013, 06:50 PM
Thank You for the detailed pics, I have cleaned it once about a month ago. The PO didn't ever clean the egr, I removed lots of crude from inside the intake as far as I could reach and cleaned the egr also with seafoam, I think I read one of Your old posts about it and saw You used sea foam instead of other cleaners, I repeated the cleaning many times until I was satisfied with the looks of the parts I was working on. I don't know how to determine if this codes mean I have to install a new EGR or if I should perform some aditional tests.

surlyoldbill
04-23-2013, 08:28 PM
Because I like to flog a dead horse,
EZ, You DID try the EGR block-off mentioned at the very start of this thread, didn't you?

Make a "gasket" using thin metal sheet, or maybe a strip of cut beer can that will cover the exhaust hole. Do NOT block the intake.

EZoilburner
04-24-2013, 04:08 PM
Yes I have, and it didn't change much. I remember the vacuum (I have a vacuum gauge plumbed into the line that goes to the turbo actuator) was zero when driving but when I parked it the vacuum gauge read about 5" of vacuum but there was also zero boost when driving (boost gauge sensor taped on the intake) so I figured it made no difference.

Today I unplugged the mass air flow sensor (the one on the air box) and the vacuum was all over the place. It will build boost only when engine rpms are under 2k and the vacuum gauge shows readings that are in acordance with the boost readings but as I said only under 2k rpms and then above that zero.

Thanks.

surlyoldbill
04-24-2013, 04:58 PM
Sounds like some sort of limp home mode, caused by Science knows what failing/failed sensor or electronic wizardry. Dark wizardry. I believe 2k is the cutoff when LHM is engaged.

EZoilburner
04-24-2013, 05:05 PM
Sounds like some sort of limp home mode, caused by Science knows what failing/failed sensor or electronic wizardry. Dark wizardry. I believe 2k is the cutoff when LHM is engaged.

No, maybe I explained the wrong way. When I pulled the plug from the maf sensor the vacuum gauge will read a number from 0-25" of vacuum (most times around 15") and the boost gauge will read a number above 4psi of boost pressure but only when 2k rpms and under, it doesn't mean the engine will not rev higher, it will rev up just fine but the vacuum will only show when under 2000 rpms. Or maybe it was Me who misunderstood.

Maybe I should just buy a egr and maf sensor since they go bad with time anyways. Even with the codes I still don't know what it is.

surlyoldbill
04-24-2013, 07:20 PM
Throwing new parts at it like a dealership shop can get expensive, but it can always be justified by knowing you have spares when you need them, if the new parts don't correct the issue. I keep vehicles for 10+ years, so having a few known good spares around doesn't bother me.

Too bad you don't have a friend nearby with an 02-03 Sprinter, you could spend an afternoon trying their parts on yours to see if they fix the issue,one part at a time.

EZoilburner
04-24-2013, 08:11 PM
Actually I do, maybe I can trade some of My time working on His and using some of the parts on mine to figure this out. Funny I thought a scanner would take care of this problems.

autostaretx
04-25-2013, 09:14 PM
Funny I thought a scanner would take care of this problems.
A scanner can only tell you what it (or the ECU) sees, or thinks it's seeing, or that it doesn't believe what it's being told.

They don't have little mesh wires covering the hoses looking/listening for leaks.
(older models like ours don't even have EGT sensors)

Intermittents are the pits...
--dick