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View Full Version : 2002 freightliner, stalls at stops


bkdiem
03-09-2013, 10:32 PM
Just bought this 2002 freightliner sprinter 144/shc,

Ok... It's got 620,0000 miles on it. It was advertised as having a new transmission & new engine but there were no supporting documents. For $2k I rolled the dice, barely drove away, and I'm not sure if I won or lost.

The symptoms.. (aside from the odometer)
Starts fine. Even in cold colorado snow, it fires up. Upon putting it in gear with my foot on the brake it stalls out. By quickly releasing my foot from the brake I can get it to drive, but at a stop light it stalls out again.

Dealership said the torque converter is failing and putting a load on th engine when there shouldn't be me, and that it's like releasing the clutch on a manual transmission with the brake applied. MB said it needs a new transmission, but the service agent was pretty vague about why, and whether or not that would solve the whole problem. And didn't give alternative options, like rebuild / used / etc... Just $5k for a new tranny

I've read through these forums for a few hours now but haven't seen anything similar.

I don't mind spending a few $ on a repair for a reliable work transport, but with 600,000 miles it's a little like pouring money into a black hole.


Advice?

Diem

bkdiem
03-10-2013, 07:02 AM
the following are the notes from the MB service center...

*******
The customer states the vehicle stalls when driving (engine warmed up) restarts ok.
Service engine light flickers on and off also (refer to history)
torque converter locked up when cold
no fault codes stored in the on board diagnostics
had fault codes stored for prior repairs
R&R trans pan inspected
R&R valve body inspected
R&R solenoids inspected
drained torque converter
replaced leaking pilot bushing
--- customer was updated with recommendation for torque converter / transmission replacement. not bale to determine the integrity of the vehicle transmission operation at present
crank position sensor replaced as initial possibility of the concern. replaced with customer approval.

********

bkdiem
03-10-2013, 07:11 AM
also the following is the service history based on receipts in the glove box...

7/6/10 abs control module caused printer to be stuck in 1st gear (fuse 5 found dislodged and replaced)
9/22/10 intake manifold recall
3/29/12 service for ABS light / faults
4/26/12 ABS sensors
5/15/12 change o2 sensor / install front ABS sensor
6/13/12 (customer states vehicle stalls when put into gear unless it is allowed to idle until operating temp) no service performed
11/14/12 oils change & rear differential service (synthetic mobile 1 0w40 + synth gear oil 75/140)
11/30/12 replaced mixer chamber/ housing, cleaned engine
replaced accelleator pedal assembly
replaced fuel filter
12/3/12 replaced fuel rail sensor (sender unit)
12/14/12 replaced crank position sensor

Aqua Puttana
03-10-2013, 02:46 PM
The symptoms do sound like they could be related to the TC. :idunno: Depending upon the failure mode mode of the transmission, if they replaced just the transmission and not the TC then junk in the transmission fluid may have affected the TC. Just information, not a diagnosis.

Has the EGR been cleaned? The OM612 engines have a history of dirty EGR's causing poor performance without always setting DTC's.

They changed the O2 sensor 5/12/12? I didn't think that the 2002 had one? Not that it matters for this discussion. vic

jb21cri
03-10-2013, 02:49 PM
i would look into the fuel and air filters first,engine might be starved for air or fuel.just because the say they replaced the fuel filter does'nt mean they did.the also state that they replaced the 02 sensors of which the 0m612 or 02-03'models have none.if the motor and trans have been replaced,you just got one heck of a deal for 2k.if so once you get the gremlins out you will have a working van as long as you can fight the rust, hopefully for a very long time.jb.

surlyoldbill
03-10-2013, 03:47 PM
I think fuel and air problems would throw a code.
Here's something fun to try, if the dealer says it needs a new transmission, ask them if they put one in and it has the same issues if you don't have to pay for their expensive mis-diagnosis. They may say it needs a "vanectomy", wher the whole van is replaced with a 2013 van, which SHOULD fix the problem...

coalminer
03-11-2013, 02:13 AM
Just for the heck of it, unplug the mass air flow sensor and see if it still stalls when you put it in gear. A malfunctioning one may not throw a code but throw the computer just enough out of whack to make it stall with the slight rpm drop when it goes into gear.

Im dealing with MAF issues myself, just curious if a defective one could cause your issue.

NelsonSprinter
03-11-2013, 02:34 AM
Tell us your location, maybe someone here is nearby with a diagnostic scanner willing to help

surlyoldbill
03-11-2013, 02:34 AM
Just for the heck of it, unplug the mass air flow sensor and see if it still stalls when you put it in gear. A malfunctioning one may not throw a code but throw the computer just enough out of whack to make it stall with the slight rpm drop when it goes into gear.

Im dealing with MAF issues myself, just curious if a defective one could cause your issue.

And DON'T get the $50 aftermarket one on ebay. My van smoked when I put one in, smoke went away when I cleaned the old one and put it back in.

bkdiem
03-11-2013, 02:40 AM
Oddly enough there is a MAF sensor under the passenger seat, like maybe it just got replaced. ( it seems like it has some dust on it from a former install but there is no odor at all, maybe its new? )

Does that sound like something important to the stalling at low RPM issue? There is a note in the box ( from eBay ) that says something about resetting the ECU after replacement...with an all caps warning that says "failure to do so could make your car run worse or not at all"

bkdiem
03-11-2013, 02:43 AM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ARSt5qHZFHw/UT1DrCHFB7I/AAAAAAAADWs/9t2YBMEIXJ0/s640/blogger-image--1873173427.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UM18wMp2MY0/UT1Dqv3L9kI/AAAAAAAADWk/A6iR4AUrVEE/s640/blogger-image--1550767251.jpg

bkdiem
03-11-2013, 02:46 AM
I'm in denver. & thanks for all the help & input from the community forum members. This is a real asset to owning a vehicle like this.

surlyoldbill
03-11-2013, 02:47 AM
The one in the box may be the old one kept as a spare. I think the OEM ones have the mercedes three pronged devil star on them. I think the ECU resets itself with a few starts. On MY van, I unplugged the MAF while running as a suggested way to see if the turbo was actuating, and this resulted in a CEL that has yet to go out. No LHM or other symptoms, though.

A.Hayes
03-11-2013, 03:20 PM
I'm in denver.

I'd go see Dennis at Linden Engineering for a reliable 2nd opinion from an independent shop that knows Sprinters. I have no direct experience with Linden, but Dennis contributes regularly to the forum and knows his stuff.

coalminer
03-11-2013, 05:27 PM
Oddly enough there is a MAF sensor under the passenger seat, like maybe it just got replaced. ( it seems like it has some dust on it from a former install but there is no odor at all, maybe its new? )

Does that sound like something important to the stalling at low RPM issue? There is a note in the box ( from eBay ) that says something about resetting the ECU after replacement...with an all caps warning that says "failure to do so could make your car run worse or not at all"

When my MAF (or whatever is causing the issues) started to act up, it did stall a couple of times on me, but it did restart. When I stopped one day for fuel, it would only start for a second and then stall. When I unplugged it, would start and run, but without the turbo. I thought I had the issue resolved, found the ground wires by the battery were not in great shape, fixed it, plugged the MAF back in and everything worked. Well for 3 weeks anyway, the wife went to go somewhere one day and it wouldnt start, as soon as she unplugged it, started right up.

jmoller99
03-11-2013, 06:38 PM
The crankshaft position sensor has been known to cause this condition (and probably why they changed it), however, many contacts on connectors have shown up with poor connections on occasion (I went thru my 2002's connectors and hit them with spray electrical connection cleaner, and it fixed a lot of obscure problems mine had when I first got it).

Get some MAF spray cleaner too - it never hurts to make sure its clean too.

If you haven't already done it, change the fuel and air filter.

bkdiem
03-12-2013, 12:37 AM
this evening when i got home i brought a can of MAF cleaner with me, and cleaned the old one, and pulled the new one out too... the one on the vehicle was a no-brand version, the one under the seat was a BOSCH, so i think ill start with putting back in the no-name version, and if that doesnt help ill put the now-clean BOSCH back in and see how that goes for starters.

I talked with dennis at linden engineering a week ago, before i bought it, and it will undoubtedly end up with him at some point. i would just like to get it there under its own power if possible.

i like the idea of the electrical cleaner spray. this makes sense to me on a logical level, seeing that the odometer is a few years away from off the chart.

@jmoller - are there any online resources you can point to that documents the crankshaft position sensor and its roll in these symptoms?

ill report back in 30 minuters when the MAF is back in.

diem

jmoller99
03-12-2013, 01:16 PM
Its a long one that describes your problem, where it was the Crank Position Sensor.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21157

There are others, but this is the one I remember.

surlyoldbill
03-12-2013, 02:18 PM
note on crankshaft sensor: remove it and check for damage. A mis-aligned or damaged crankshaft can hit it and damage it. On another forum, someone had that problem, and used a washer to shim the sensor out away from the crankshaft a few mm's, and that solved their problem.

surlyoldbill
03-12-2013, 02:23 PM
Just bought this 2002 freightliner sprinter 144/shc,

Ok... It's got 620,0000 miles on it. It was advertised as having a new transmission & new engine but there were no supporting documents. For $2k I rolled the dice, barely drove away, and I'm not sure if I won or lost.

The symptoms.. (aside from the odometer)
Starts fine. Even in cold colorado snow, it fires up. Upon putting it in gear with my foot on the brake it stalls out. By quickly releasing my foot from the brake I can get it to drive, but at a stop light it stalls out again.

Dealership said the torque converter is failing and putting a load on th engine when there shouldn't be me, and that it's like releasing the clutch on a manual transmission with the brake applied. MB said it needs a new transmission, but the service agent was pretty vague about why, and whether or not that would solve the whole problem. And didn't give alternative options, like rebuild / used / etc... Just $5k for a new tranny

I've read through these forums for a few hours now but haven't seen anything similar.

I don't mind spending a few $ on a repair for a reliable work transport, but with 600,000 miles it's a little like pouring money into a black hole.


Advice?

Diem

Back to the start of the thread, If you only have $2k into the van, it may be worthwhile to arrange to have it brought to Dr A's World Sprinter Lair and have him go over it. Once properly fixed and other issues diagnosed, you will have a van that should last you a long time. A whole new engine is less than $10k installed. $12k for a Sprinter with 0 miles is pretty good.

1cylshort
03-12-2013, 03:04 PM
So it stalls out when braking in park, to release the shifter?

Do you know that you can release the shifter w/o the brake? Stick a small pen or screw drive into the little flap at the very bottom of the shifter travel cover (down there, beneath "L"). Now this would be very dangerous to do, and I wouldn't recommend doing it, but if you're a daredevil and wanted to do something dangerous, say, move / shift the van without braking in 'park', maybe...

How did people avoid killing themselves back when you could just throw a car into drive from park, without using the brake?

bkdiem
03-13-2013, 03:24 AM
MAF replacement was no good, nor was the electrical contact cleaner. my first $14 in maintenance was unproductive...

i will say that it feels a good bit like bad gas, and / or bad fuel filter as well, but im out of time for cheap fixes, so im sending it off tomorrow to Linden engineering, and having dennis give a professional evaluation. I found some receipts in the glove box, and several were from Linden, so dennis has seen this vehicle before, and im hoping hell be able to give me a true account of its history. For some reason the previous owner sent it to Linden twice, and then started taking it the the Mercedes dealership. I talked on the phone with Dennis before i bought it, and i liked talking to him about 1000 more.


diem

bkdiem
04-14-2013, 02:46 PM
I took the sprinter into LinDen engineering in Golden, CO a couple weeks ago, and just picked up the sprinter yesterday.

it now runs perfect.

so the fix wasn't easy, nor was it inexpensive, but it was NOT the transmission, nor was the engine bad, nor the MAF sensor, etc...

the problem was 100% electrical.

Dennis replaced the complete engine wiring harness, as well as the ECM, and SCREEZ, and with a bit of reprogramming the sprinter came out of the shop 2 weeks later running like a brand new vehicle.

Dennis, thank you for your expertise and thank you to the community members here who offered advice and input on my "transmission" problem, that was not a transmission problem.

I would like to point out something to the community in case this oddity gets overlooked...

after looking at the vehicle and troubleshooting the problem, the mercedes benz dealership quoted me $5000 for a new transmission, and said the transmission needed to be replaced and the torque converter was the cause of the engine stalling out at lights and running rough. the symptoms that i experienced made a sort of logical sense with the diagnosis by mercedes benz. however, the mercedes benz diagnosis was entirely inaccurate. had i gone ahead with replacing the transmission through mercedes, i would have been left with exactly the same problem and been $5000 poorer.

the problem was 100% electrical, so those of you that were suggesting cleaning wiring contacts were onto something.

those of you in the denver area that need sprinter work, go out of your way to see dennis at linden engineering in Golden. He runs a top notch service center, and saved me thousands of dollars.

ben

Wcoy
11-15-2016, 09:58 PM
Sooo, what exactly were the electrical issues? I have the 2002 Freightliner. Bought it about 10 months ago to convert into an ice cream truck. I've been having stall issues since day 1. Considering it could be fixed I plunged face first into a dream and purchased it for $6,000. Here I am 10 months and $5,800 into repairs trying to figure out this damn stall problem. No codes. No other syptoms. Simply dark black smoke, rough running engine (kinda like a rum rum rum rum.. sounds silly but just say it out loud lol) and constant stalling. It will stall while driving occasionally but most definitely when at a stop light and thats IF I even make it out of the driveway. It will reverse unless I give it gas. In reverse if I even touch the gas pedal, stall. It will start right back up and will stay running until I try to put it in any other gear than park. It used to just stall at a stop light here and there. So what right? But recently it's been progressively getting worse. As of today, when i get it to Drive, stall. Reverse, stall. Coming around a corner, stall.
I'm dying here guys. I've studied these forums like a crazy person, I mean hours and hours a day for months. NO mechanics even have a clue. They're just handing me a bill and giving up on me left and right. I put my entire savings into this and am ran dry. With 4 kids and Christmas around the corner... this is physically making me sick. I have a whole inventory of ice cream. It's painted SO cute like the Fruit Stripe gum :) I have the uniforms and music box EVERYTHING is ready and on point. I just cant get this F**ker to run.
Just 3 weeks ago I sent off the computer to S.O.S diagnostics. Thought that would be my saving grace. No difference :( Ive done new injectors, glow plugs, fuel filter, airfilters, fuel lines, mass air flow sensor ..all normal maintenance...

flman
11-15-2016, 10:07 PM
Sooo, what exactly were the electrical issues? I have the 2002 Freightliner. Bought it about 10 months ago to convert into an ice cream truck. I've been having stall issues since day 1. Considering it could be fixed I plunged face first into a dream and purchased it for $6,000. Here I am 10 months and $5,800 into repairs trying to figure out this damn stall problem. No codes. No other syptoms. Simply dark black smoke, rough running engine (kinda like a rum rum rum rum.. sounds silly but just say it out loud lol) and constant stalling. It will stall while driving occasionally but most definitely when at a stop light and thats IF I even make it out of the driveway. It will reverse unless I give it gas. In reverse if I even touch the gas pedal, stall. It will start right back up and will stay running until I try to put it in any other gear than park. It used to just stall at a stop light here and there. So what right? But recently it's been progressively getting worse. As of today, when i get it to Drive, stall. Reverse, stall. Coming around a corner, stall.
I'm dying here guys. I've studied these forums like a crazy person, I mean hours and hours a day for months. NO mechanics even have a clue. They're just handing me a bill and giving up on me left and right. I put my entire savings into this and am ran dry. With 4 kids and Christmas around the corner... this is physically making me sick. I have a whole inventory of ice cream. It's painted SO cute like the Fruit Stripe gum :) I have the uniforms and music box EVERYTHING is ready and on point. I just cant get this F**ker to run.
Just 3 weeks ago I sent off the computer to S.O.S diagnostics. Thought that would be my saving grace. No difference :( Ive done new injectors, glow plugs, fuel filter, airfilters, fuel lines, mass air flow sensor ..all normal maintenance...

Sounds like the EGR is stuck open? My 2006 did the same thing, got a GDE tune and siliconed the EGR shut. You should pull the EGR, and see if the vanes are stuck open, and see if it returns to closed freely with the spring mechanism?

NelsonSprinter
11-16-2016, 03:18 AM
Sooo, what exactly were the electrical issues? I have the 2002 Freightliner. Bought it about 10 months ago to convert into an ice cream truck. I've been having stall issues since day 1. Considering it could be fixed I plunged face first into a dream and purchased it for $6,000. Here I am 10 months and $5,800 into repairs trying to figure out this damn stall problem. No codes. No other syptoms. Simply dark black smoke, rough running engine (kinda like a rum rum rum rum.. sounds silly but just say it out loud lol) and constant stalling. It will stall while driving occasionally but most definitely when at a stop light and thats IF I even make it out of the driveway. It will reverse unless I give it gas. In reverse if I even touch the gas pedal, stall. It will start right back up and will stay running until I try to put it in any other gear than park. It used to just stall at a stop light here and there. So what right? But recently it's been progressively getting worse. As of today, when i get it to Drive, stall. Reverse, stall. Coming around a corner, stall.
I'm dying here guys. I've studied these forums like a crazy person, I mean hours and hours a day for months. NO mechanics even have a clue. They're just handing me a bill and giving up on me left and right. I put my entire savings into this and am ran dry. With 4 kids and Christmas around the corner... this is physically making me sick. I have a whole inventory of ice cream. It's painted SO cute like the Fruit Stripe gum :) I have the uniforms and music box EVERYTHING is ready and on point. I just cant get this F**ker to run.
Just 3 weeks ago I sent off the computer to S.O.S diagnostics. Thought that would be my saving grace. No difference :( Ive done new injectors, glow plugs, fuel filter, airfilters, fuel lines, mass air flow sensor ..all normal maintenance...

So your problem could be a corroded/frayed Wiring harness, everytime it gets accelerator pressed or gear changed something got moved to short a wire out. Can also be bad ground wire, engine ground wire corroded
Have you checked your turbo actuator near alternator to see if the hose is in place? Pic as seen from below turbo if not in place will not engage turbo and cause black smoke

Wcoy
11-17-2016, 02:48 PM
Sounds like the EGR is stuck open? My 2006 did the same thing, got a GDE tune and siliconed the EGR shut. You should pull the EGR, and see if the vanes are stuck open, and see if it returns to closed freely with the spring mechanism?

See, one of the first thing I did was clean the EGR. When I pulled it I expected to the the "fan like" mechanism to see if it was just stuck with a bunch of junk... I did clean it, buy a new gasket and put it back but there was no part that looked like a fan. Maybe I'm just carazy but i swear it didnt have one. I spent hours searching for a reference on my specific 2002 Freightliner EGR to figure out why the "fan" part wasn't there to clean.

flman
11-17-2016, 07:50 PM
See, one of the first thing I did was clean the EGR. When I pulled it I expected to the the "fan like" mechanism to see if it was just stuck with a bunch of junk... I did clean it, buy a new gasket and put it back but there was no part that looked like a fan. Maybe I'm just carazy but i swear it didnt have one. I spent hours searching for a reference on my specific 2002 Freightliner EGR to figure out why the "fan" part wasn't there to clean.

Maybe that is you problem, the fan or 4 winged butterfly has fallen off inside of the manifold?