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marquimarl
03-04-2013, 03:48 AM
Here is a warning to those of us who are using Porche Cayenne Wheels on our Sprinters.
I finaly got my Tin running and leaving the parking lot from work I must have run over something that hit the rim and inner side wall.
What is amazing is that I was only doing 30mph when it happened and the whole rim split in two!
The Alloy is amazingly thin!
I Think it was a miracle that this had not happened when loaded with my Family on the interstate.
My wife had no problem with doing over 85 even in heavy crosswinds on our last cross country trip. I had to tell her to slow it down a few times. You can only imagine if this had happened at that speed!

My problem Now is the spare was a smaller diameter and it put the Van into some kind of limp mode.
I tried to clear the codes with the DAD this morning but the problems persist.
If needed I will post the screen captures with the codes later.
Here are some photos of the rim.

icarus
03-04-2013, 04:05 AM
Whqt do ysuppose the weight rating of the Porche rims are compared to those of a Sprinter? I'm guessing less!

Icarus

abittenbinder
03-04-2013, 04:42 AM
My problem Now is the spare was a smaller diameter and it put the Van into some kind of limp mode.
I tried to clear the codes with the DAD this morning but the problems persist.


Until this mismatch in overall tire height is corrected, the fault codes and symptoms will persist.

Symptoms can be quite severe and can mimic transmission failure.

Doktor A

Aqua Puttana
03-04-2013, 04:51 AM
In case you don't realize... After installing all similar/same size tires/wheels, you need to go in with the DAD and clear the TCM codes too. Just clearing the ECM companion codes will likely not restore normal operation.

Thanks for the heads up. Good luck. vic

mean_in_green
03-04-2013, 06:26 AM
Even the alloys you see on trucks fail occasionally. Anyone know what weight a Cayenne alloy is approved for?

owner
03-04-2013, 06:30 AM
I wonder what broke first, the rim or the tyre? What was the load rating on the tyre?

Altered Sprinter
03-04-2013, 09:13 AM
Go back to the Original thread...Cayenne Rims (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=213612#post213612)
Post 10:http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213612&postcount=10
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213612&postcount=10

Old Crows
03-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Must have hit something???? Marqui, its obvious you did. At 30 mph? Expecting any tire / rim to not fail or damage when striking something at speed is not reasonable. Looks to me that the root cause of the failure is striking something ... Not a tire ir rim failure..... Just sayin'...:idunno:


Here is a warning to those of us who are using Porche Cayenne Wheels on our Sprinters.
I finaly got my Tin running and leaving the parking lot from work I must have run over something that hit the rim and inner side wall.
What is amazing is that I was only doing 30mph when it happened and the whole rim split in two!
The Alloy is amazingly thin!
I Think it was a miracle that this had not happened when loaded with my Family on the interstate.
My wife had no problem with doing over 85 even in heavy crosswinds on our last cross country trip. I had to tell her to slow it down a few times. You can only imagine if this had happened at that speed!

My problem Now is the spare was a smaller diameter and it put the Van into some kind of limp mode.
I tried to clear the codes with the DAD this morning but the problems persist.
If needed I will post the screen captures with the codes later.
Here are some photos of the rim.

MillionMileSprinter
03-04-2013, 05:02 PM
I've been running similar audi rims for 30k+ miles, driving the mean, pothole filled streets of Philadelphia. Maybe you got a dud.:idunno:

Boater
03-04-2013, 05:08 PM
I'm waiting on a set of steel wheels arriving since I cleaned my alloys (Fox viper) and noticed a load rating of 950kg embossed onto one of the spokes (rear axle needs 1120kg if loaded to the max).
Several websites are listing these wheels as good for a 3.5t sprinter but I have contacted the distributor and 950kg is the max load rating they have!

Needless to say I'm even more paranoid for seeing those pics, but the wheels should arrive before the injector :D:

Looks like you ran over a metal spike - is there a gate on the parking lot with some kind of securing hardware sticking up in the middle?

Dingo
03-04-2013, 06:21 PM
Certain German manufacturers 19" rims & above had an large number of failures like yours due to the distance from the inner bead to the mounting face . factory sprinter rims have the mounting face approximately in the centre of the rim ( feel free to measure this ) . The loads when applied are spread equally on both side of the rim . The center disc is definately centrally mounted in the rim before being welded .

The Cayenne rims have all the mounting face on the outer edge of the rim . you therefore end up with a large levering effect when the inner rim edge hits any obstruction , think of using a short spanner ( wrench ) to undo a very tight bolt , try the same using a long breaker bar & socket . How much easier is it using the long bar ????????????? :bash: .The sheer distance that the levering effort worked on broke that rim

Aluminium alloy can only bend so far & then it fails , steel would deform to a greater extent & possibly be hammered back into shape enough to get you home . Unfortunately , aluminium just snaps or developes cracks that shatter later on . Go & find 4x4 on large alloys that have the face close to the outer edge of the rim & peek round the back , the level of unseen damage might make you all walk away from alloys on vans . Steel for me all the way , just not worth the aggro of rim failure . The other prob with alloys is & here i go the alloy & steel acting in the same way as a battery & "welding " the rim to the hub ,

:professor:

mean_in_green
03-04-2013, 06:36 PM
The only alloys that seem correctly rated for a Sprinter are the Alcoa or G-Wagen ones. Because of the offset the rest just don't seem to work, either visually or from a strength perspective.

People will always want something different, I get that, but Sprinters aren't lightweight performance vehicles. Stick with steelies!

Alloy Bill
03-04-2013, 07:02 PM
Typically drop well cracks are a function of either/or/both overloading and over-inflation. The cayenne drop well rim thickness wasn't designed for Sprinter loads, not to mention it probably wasn't an LT tire. Cast wheels auto wheels usually don't pass the same sort of impact test requirements as a steel or forged aluminum. That ontop of the load moment (lever arm) that Dingo mentioned and you have a recipe for that picture.

On the other end, if you underinflate you’ll zipper the tire from too much squat and heat.

Make sure that you're matching tire load, wheel load, axle load, and offset. Probably a good idea to stick with the same wheel size too. There’s a reason the 16 x 6.5 245/75R16 3000lb load was selected in the first place.

TomLetsinger
03-04-2013, 11:00 PM
The title of this thread should be: "Warning - crashing into curbs will damage your wheels"

Aqua Puttana
03-04-2013, 11:30 PM
Typically drop well cracks are a function of either/or/both overloading and over-inflation. The cayenne drop well rim thickness wasn't designed for Sprinter loads, not to mention it probably wasn't an LT tire. Cast wheels auto wheels usually don't pass the same sort of impact test requirements as a steel or forged aluminum. That ontop of the load moment (lever arm) that Dingo mentioned and you have a recipe for that picture.

On the other end, if you underinflate you’ll zipper the tire from too much squat and heat.

Make sure that you're matching tire load, wheel load, axle load, and offset. Probably a good idea to stick with the same wheel size too. There’s a reason the 16 x 6.5 245/75R16 3000lb load was selected in the first place.
Interesting. Thanks for the information.


The title of this thread should be: "Warning - crashing into curbs will damage your wheels"

Hitting a curb at 30 mph would do in most any rim. I didn't see hitting a curb? I saw hit "something". Maybe a chunk of broken spring or other road debris caused the damage? :idunno:

vic

Boater
03-05-2013, 12:32 AM
Hitting a curb at 30 mph would do in most any rim. I didn't see hitting a curb? I saw hit "something". Maybe a chunk of broken spring or other road debris caused the damage? :idunno:

vic

I agree, marquimarl knew he had hit something but hadn't seen it coming, I don't think he curbed it.

I remember learning to drive and having to change a wheel for a puncture. My instructor told me to pull over and park, which I did. He explained something, then as I set off there was a serious clunking from nearside front wheel so I stopped for him to check it.
We had a caliper type push bike brake sticking out of the tyre - the mounting bolt had gone right in and the caliper was just dangling by it.
There were 2 of us paying close attention to how I parked that car and neither of us spotted it - sometimes **** happens!

I have directional tyres on my car, I get the spare made up for the nearside. In my experience almost all punctures are due to debris lying on the nearside of the road - I guess the camber makes it roll off the crown and collect in the gutter.

surlyoldbill
03-05-2013, 02:03 AM
I don't know, I'm a little leary of putting passenger car rims on a truck, or messing with the engineering decisions of vehicle design, like putting 24" rims on a 1990 Buick 4-door car. Something will eventually give.

Graphite Dave
03-05-2013, 02:08 AM
Being from Richmond, 24" wheels on a worn out Buick should not be a surprise! How could you be cool with anything less than 24 rims?

icarus
03-05-2013, 02:22 AM
Perhaps title might ought to be "don't put the wrong rims on a "comparitively" heavy vehicle!

Icarus

surlyoldbill
03-05-2013, 03:16 AM
Being from Richmond, 24" wheels on a worn out Buick should not be a surprise! How could you be cool with anything less than 24 rims?

This image of what NOT to do immediately came to mind, as I see it every day...at my neighbor's house! Some of these guys can barely negotiate a turn onto a side street because the tires rub so much when turning. And listening to them complain about getting flats all the time...why even HAVE air in a tire that is only 2" tall? I was tempted to get some chrome letters like the 22" and 24" that are stuck on cars here, except mine would have been 12"...and on my Nash Metropolitan. Neighbors keep telling me that I need to get some rims for my Corvair, and I get blank stares when I say that it has the best rims I can get for it, the original year stock rims with the two-prong spinner wire wheel hub caps. I suppose they would like to see me hang some rubber testicles under it, as well.

marquimarl
03-05-2013, 06:09 AM
Until this mismatch in overall tire height is corrected, the fault codes and symptoms will persist.

Symptoms can be quite severe and can mimic transmission failure.

Doktor A
I forgot to mention.
After I made it home I dug out my old wheels and changed them out.
It took a couple of rides around the block but the ECU finally figured out that things were the way they were supposed to be and gave back Power.
The transmission returned to normal also.
You were right Dr. A it had me fooled that the transmission was going and the way it was shudering I thought the rear end was going out too.

As for the jokers who like to laugh at misfortune.
I did not hit a curb nor did I drive the wrong way over security spikes.

Most of the comments made like the ones by Alloy, Mean, and Dingo, make a lot of sense.
Those of you who by choice stick with stock wheels and tires good for you.

The purist like Altered who have warned very adamently from the very begining to stick with the design parameters has my respect for not saying I told you so.:thumbup:

I am not "Rollin on 20s" but on German egineered 18" Alloys designed for a "Sport Utility". The tires are were 60s but were 1120KG rated, 6 ply but only 2 ply side wall.
My next door neighbor is a sevice manager for Toyota and he told me he sees that kind of rim damage all the time, "With After Market Rims" not OEM.

It is a heavy Van but I never load it to capacity in fact when this happened I was riding solo with less than a 1/4 tank of fuel.
The specs say weight is not a factor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"hillis24
Re: Cayenne Rims

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06 Porsche Cayenne
CURB WEIGHT 4784 lbs, TOWING CAPACITY** 7716 lbs., MAXIMUM PAYLOAD** 1709 lbs.

06 T1N 118wb
CURB WEIGHT 4600 lbs., TOWING CAPACITY** 5000 lbs, MAXIMUM PAYLOAD** 3950 lbs

T1N is 184 lbs under, but 2241 lbs over the cayenne payload. If my math is correct.

The load that I carry is a max of 1200lbs, and usually around 800lbs. For me these will be ok. If you do heavier than recommended, this might not be the option for you.

Cayenne total max weight 6493, so 118wb should be a max payload of 1893lbs. Thats still alot of weight. """

I liked the fact that it did not ride like a delivery van and was a lot quieter and smooth without the rattles and bumps from every little defect in the road.
Riding a little higher was nice and the syle of the rims was very pleasent to look at too.
The only draw backs were a 2mpg drop in mileage and tire wear.

I measured the thickness of the alloy at the break, it is 5mm thick.
The leverage from the far outside strike on the wheel was enough to Dent the rim And blow out the tire with enough force left over to crack the wheel like an egg.

Old Crow has a point in that if I did not hit somthing the Wheel would not have broke.
On the other hand with a steel wheel I still would have had a blowout but would it not have been safer not to have the wheel separate also especially at twice the speed I was going?
Any body want to buy Three Cayenne Rims?

Boater
03-05-2013, 11:05 AM
nor did I drive the wrong way over security spikes.

That's not what I was meaning - the gates at my work have bolts that go into the ground when you lock up. There is or was a steel sleeve set into the tarmac to receive the bolt but at some point it had worked loose and sometimes used to come out with the bolt, and didn't always sit down flush in the hole depending on who put it back in. I think the boss has thrown the sleeve away now, that hole is almost always short making it difficult to line the holes up to padlock the bolt, which is probably the sides collapsing because there is no liner!

There was also a piece of angle bar which I guess was an old fence post that became exposed to one side of our gateway when the tarmac deteriorated - the boss ground that off flush because it was impossible to see from the drivers seat even in daylight.

We rent office space from a removals company and their trucks have an impact on the driveway that leads to the yard, probably the increased traffic from our cars doesn't help either.

Nothing worse than a new or temporary hazard somewhere you know well, I was trying to be supportive of the fact that whatever you hit, there is probably no way you could have seen it.

pgr
03-05-2013, 12:59 PM
I forgot to mention.
After I made it home I dug out my old wheels and changed them out.
It took a couple of rides around the block but the ECU finally figured out that things were the way they were supposed to be and gave back Power.
The transmission returned to normal also.
You were right Dr. A it had me fooled that the transmission was going and the way it was shudering I thought the rear end was going out too.

As for the jokers who like to laugh at misfortune.
I did not hit a curb nor did I drive the wrong way over security spikes.

Most of the comments made like the ones by Alloy, Mean, and Dingo, make a lot of sense.
Those of you who by choice stick with stock wheels and tires good for you.

The purist like Altered who have warned very adamently from the very begining to stick with the design parameters has my respect for not saying I told you so.:thumbup:

I am not "Rollin on 20s" but on German egineered 18" Alloys designed for a "Sport Utility". The tires are were 60s but were 1120KG rated, 6 ply but only 2 ply side wall.
My next door neighbor is a sevice manager for Toyota and he told me he sees that kind of rim damage all the time, "With After Market Rims" not OEM.

It is a heavy Van but I never load it to capacity in fact when this happened I was riding solo with less than a 1/4 tank of fuel.
The specs say weight is not a factor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"hillis24
Re: Cayenne Rims

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06 Porsche Cayenne
CURB WEIGHT 4784 lbs, TOWING CAPACITY** 7716 lbs., MAXIMUM PAYLOAD** 1709 lbs.

06 T1N 118wb
CURB WEIGHT 4600 lbs., TOWING CAPACITY** 5000 lbs, MAXIMUM PAYLOAD** 3950 lbs

T1N is 184 lbs under, but 2241 lbs over the cayenne payload. If my math is correct.

The load that I carry is a max of 1200lbs, and usually around 800lbs. For me these will be ok. If you do heavier than recommended, this might not be the option for you.

Cayenne total max weight 6493, so 118wb should be a max payload of 1893lbs. Thats still alot of weight. """

I liked the fact that it did not ride like a delivery van and was a lot quieter and smooth without the rattles and bumps from every little defect in the road.
Riding a little higher was nice and the syle of the rims was very pleasent to look at too.
The only draw backs were a 2mpg drop in mileage and tire wear.

I measured the thickness of the alloy at the break, it is 5mm thick.
The leverage from the far outside strike on the wheel was enough to Dent the rim And blow out the tire with enough force left over to crack the wheel like an egg.

Old Crow has a point in that if I did not hit somthing the Wheel would not have broke.
On the other hand with a steel wheel I still would have had a blowout but would it not have been safer not to have the wheel separate also especially at twice the speed I was going?
Any body want to buy Three Cayenne Rims?

That's what happens when you carry around too many bibles so close to so much ammo:lol::lol:

david_42
03-05-2013, 03:26 PM
marquimarl - Is that a picture of your van, because it looks longer than my 140?

Personally, I'd leery of putting rims and tires with a lower pressure rating on my van, even if the maximum load was the same.

MillionMileSprinter
03-05-2013, 04:03 PM
marquimarl - Is that a picture of your van, because it looks longer than my 140?


Nope, it's a 140. Look at the rearmost window. On the longest wheelbase, that would be the middle window and all three rear windows are the same size. That rearmost window is the extra long one that only the 140" have (but to be honest, I thought the same thing you did at first. It's just the way the picture was taken).

edit- ... or maybe I'm wrong.... now that I study it again... :hmmm:

surlyoldbill
03-05-2013, 06:27 PM
Nope, it's a 140. Look at the rearmost window. On the longest wheelbase, that would be the middle window and all three rear windows are the same size. That rearmost window is the extra long one that only the 140" have (but to be honest, I thought the same thing you did at first. It's just the way the picture was taken).

edit- ... or maybe I'm wrong.... now that I study it again... :hmmm:

On the 140, the rear wheel is almost centered under the back side window. 158 has 3 windows of the same size (3 short), 118 has two windows of the same size (two short) 140 has one short and one long. But you already knew that.
The picture is of a configuration unknown to me, perhaps a 158 cargo van that had windows put in afterwards, in an odd configuration.

MillionMileSprinter
03-05-2013, 07:27 PM
On the 140, the rear wheel is almost centered under the back side window. 158 has 3 windows of the same size (3 short), 118 has two windows of the same size (two short) 140 has one short and one long. But you already knew that.
The picture is of a configuration unknown to me, perhaps a 158 cargo van that had windows put in afterwards, in an odd configuration.

Right. That IS an odd configuration. Just look at my avitar to see where the wheel should be on a 140". Like you said, in the middle, not at the back. His wheel placement suggests a long sprinter, but his window configuration suggests a medium. hmmm:hmmm:

edit- boy do I feel dumb. I just realized that I wasn't able to see the entire photo on my screen. I scrolled all the way to the right and saw the THIRD WINDOW at the edge of the photo.
It must be a 158" with a weird window configuration.

surlyoldbill
03-05-2013, 11:04 PM
I'm going out on a limb and saying the pic was taken at the campground next to the Zion National Park visitor center...

mean_in_green
03-06-2013, 07:01 AM
It's a rare variant indeed. Virtually all TNs in 158 panel body had six wheels. I've only ever seen one other one like the green one in the picture, that was probably ten years ago in Belgium.

These days you can order Sprinters with varying plated weights but it hasn't always been the case. When I bought my 410D back in 1993 I had to sort the plating out myself post delivery. It wasn't uncommon - European owners would sometimes do it simply because the factory didn't offer it. Bear in mind that the larger Sprinters here may fall into the same class as heavier trucks, and that means dealing with red tape to run one. The replating weight excercise was a way around this, albeit in a way that was somewhat flirtatious with the law if you were minded to then use the van to its full (rather than restricted) potential...

Enforcement is much higher profile in the UK now compared to back then. Most people realize they can't get away with stunts like that now.

owner
03-07-2013, 10:25 AM
On a LWB T1N, (aka 158") the 3 big side windows are not the same size. The window in the slider is 300mm shorter than the other 2.

I know this because I had to measure them when I did my DIY double glazing (aka double pane windows). http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22667

4x 1340mm x 640mm (4 big windows)
2x 1040mm x 640mm (2 windows in the sliding doors)

Looking at the photo, its just a regular old LWB. The second (300mm longer) window extends to the rear wheel. And the third (also 300mm longer) goes to the back.

This photo shows it better...
http://www.sportsmobile.com/z_preowned/po_calif_files/5920264-2.jpg

MillionMileSprinter
03-07-2013, 11:45 AM
On a LWB T1N, (aka 158") the 3 big side windows are not the same size. The window in the slider is 300mm shorter than the other 2.
I know this because I had to measure them when I did my DIY double glazing (aka double pane windows). http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22667
Looking at the photo, its just a regular old LWB. The second (300mm longer) window extends to the rear wheel. And the third (also 300mm longer) goes to the back.
This photo shows it better...
http://www.sportsmobile.com/z_preowned/po_calif_files/5920264-2.jpg

... and to think I was wrong all along about the window sizes...
Thank you for clearing that up. :bow:

Aqua Puttana
03-08-2013, 03:18 PM
... and to think I was wrong all along about the window sizes...
Thank you for clearing that up. :bow:

I was under the same misconception. I guess the description is that 118 has two identical size side windows or panels, the 140 has one larger and one smaller size side window or panel, and the 158 has 3 similar sized windows or panels.

I learn new stuff all the time. vic

118

50981

140

50979

158

50980

MillionMileSprinter
04-14-2013, 09:32 PM
I speak not to disprove what (marquimarl) spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
-From Antony's speech at Caesar's funeral

While in Florida adopting a little girl, we happened to run across a deal on a camper that we couldn't pass up... so we purchased it... and towed it from Florida to Philadelphia.
Of course, on our drive down to Florida a month ago to the adoption, I had no idea I would be towing back a 4500lb camper, so the thought of taking my lower load rated wheels and tires off never crossed my mind. My Audi wheels are the cousins/brothers of Marquimarl's Porsche wheels and are load rated lower than the stock wheel/tire combo, as has been dutifully noted in any discussion of alternative wheels for the T1Ns. Without thinking, I towed it home and arrived safe and sound after hitting speeds of up to 65mph and all types of road conditions- smooth, rough, construction zones, uneven lanes, potholes and city driving.
Only after I arrived home did it occur to me that my wheels and tires were below the stock rating... so I am not telling this story to disprove Marquimarl, just give an alternative viewpoint on very similar wheels and again wonder if maybe he just got a dud rim.
YMMV
Just my:2cents:

Dingo
04-15-2013, 09:12 AM
If you go back to Marquimarl's original post , you will see that the first image shows impact damage to the tyre & rim .

As i pointed out previously alloy rims adapted to fit sprinters seem to have their mounting face on the outer face of the rim , this leaves a large distance to the inner bead seat , IF this inner face hits an object it will bend & fracture the alloy as happened to the OP .

You will suffer the same fate if you met the same or very similar series of events .

In the UK , many people fit larger alloy rims & low profile tyres to sprinters , i have seen 18" rims fitted with tyres to give correct rolling radius . BUT and this is very important these tyres DO NOT met the Legal requirements regarding load ratings . If you had an accident & the Police noted or the insurers noted you had tyres & rims that were not suitably rated for the load you will be in a world of hurt & financial ruin by the time they have finished with you .

It would also be reasonable to say that much of the weight you towed back was carried by the trailers own rims & tyres rather than if it had been inside your van strapped down like hauliers do daily .

I am amazed that with you living in the US. you are not smothered in laws & rules forbidding such practicises . We have the EU doing it to Uk drivers daily .

mean_in_green
04-15-2013, 09:18 AM
Steelies for me, every day of the week.

For reference these models may also be colloquially referred to as:

118 / SHORT WHEELBASE

140 / MEDIUM WHEELBASE

158 / LONG WHEELBASE

158 / EXTRA LONG WHEELBASE (infact a misnomer, the body is longer not the wheelbase)

Dingo
04-15-2013, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=mean_in_green;238078]Steelies for me, every day of the week.


YUP & me , Off road once & thumped rim on rock . Rim bent & tyre flat , already used spare due to puncture . So out with large hammer & fettled rim back roughly to correct shape . Added some butane gas to tyre along with burning match . WHUMMMP tyre fitted & inflated and i could get back to the highway . :smilewink:

Try that with an alloy rim :bounce:

And before i get flamed , bent rim was cut up & scrapped along with tyre due to sidewall damage .

Like alloys BUT they are high maintainence items ( cleaning & keeping corrosion free on bead seats ) .

Aqua Puttana
04-15-2013, 12:35 PM
... so I am not telling this story to disprove Marquimarl, just give an alternative viewpoint on very similar wheels and again wonder if maybe he just got a dud rim.
YMMV
Just my:2cents:
Joel,
Just because you get away with something not rated for the service doesn't mean it is good practice. A cement block as an anchor can hold a large sailboat in place if there is no current and wind. That doesn't mean that you can trust it all the time. :2cents:

Nice looking camper by the way. 23 foot or so? vic