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View Full Version : what percentage of T1N's will get the black death?


FFR5445
02-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Just trying to gauge the problem. Is the black death something that all sprinters will eventually get if driven enough? Is it a problem more prone to early models vs later models?

JL

Aqua Puttana
02-20-2013, 12:27 PM
Just trying to gauge the problem. Is the black death something that all sprinters will eventually get if driven enough? Is it a problem more prone to early models vs later models?

JL
It would be nice to see you get a response based upon data, but I doubt that a database exists. My opinion based upon my memory of the threads in this forum is that there are many Sprinters running around without any problem with injector seal seat leakage (Black Death).

The good news is that if you do a regular (each oil change) remove the black plastic cover visual inspection for signs of leakage, then you will catch any problem early enough that it will not be a major repair. The inspection requires about 15 minutes total and an Allen wrench. The leakage problem being major increases the longer it remains unrepaired.

Sorry I can't offer more. vic

talkinghorse43
02-20-2013, 12:58 PM
Might be an in-line engine problem; no reports I'm aware of for the NCV3's v6. Don't know if a later model inline engine (like the present OM651) will get it because it seems the injector hold down tensioning procedure has been changed by MB. The procedure was to end tensioning with a 90 degree turn to load the hold down, but MB's WIS now specifies ending with 2 - 90 degree turns to load it.

MillionMileSprinter
02-20-2013, 01:08 PM
Maybe this should be a "This is what I drive, this is how many miles I have and I DON'T have Black Death" thread.
Informal but somewhat informative.
I'll start.
'02 T1N 116,xxx miles. No Black Death.

david_42
02-20-2013, 01:54 PM
'04 84K, no problem.

Although I doubt we will get enough entries to make an evaluation.

talkinghorse43
02-20-2013, 02:26 PM
Not a simple analysis. For instance, 4 of my injectors have been replaced since new due to fault (not black death). I recently got the black death leak on #2 after 170k miles of service (was replaced at 99k miles). #5 was replaced at 30k miles and hasn't leaked. #4 injector is still original and has not started to leak yet (274k miles to-date).

kjg912
02-20-2013, 07:48 PM
2004 with 72k miles, and very clean under the cover!:2cents:

mawsea
02-20-2013, 08:44 PM
enough that is worth checking every time you change the oil. Thanks to this forum I made it part of my regular scheduled maintenance and first discovered it around 160k and have since replaced all the hold down bolts and washers. It wasn't cheap to repair but if I had let it go longer it would have been a much more difficult job.

KEC
02-20-2013, 10:50 PM
02 125K no BD

Aqua Puttana
02-21-2013, 02:23 AM
...
The good news is that if you do a regular (each oil change) remove the black plastic cover visual inspection for signs of leakage, then you will catch any problem early enough that it will not be a major repair. ... Sorry I can't offer more. vic

Oops. A brief telephone conversation today with a T1N Sprinter owner revealed that just within a few days the seal may fairly quickly deteriorate to a noticeable chuffing sound from leakage. (Possibly a broken hold down bolt?)

An inspection will still help to avert a major repair, but don't ignore any changes in operating sounds. If you notice a new noise it may be worthwhile to pull the plastic cover and check the injectors even if your last inspection was fairly recent.

vic

P.S. - I trust that things will work out OK for him in the end.

surlyoldbill
02-21-2013, 02:48 AM
183k no black death

NelsonSprinter
02-21-2013, 02:53 AM
Would the # with BD
DIVIDED by the# of members be a more probable indicator of BD ?

owner
02-21-2013, 09:11 AM
The procedure was to end tensioning with a 90 degree turn to load the hold down, but MB's WIS now specifies ending with 2 - 90 degree turns to load it.
Its always been specified as 7Nm+90+90 on the OM612 in my ML270CDI. I've done 4 out of the five so far on that.

I've not had to do a Sprinter injector yet, but seeing as how its also a OM612, I will be doing 90+90 for sure when the time comes. Maybe this is why you guys Stateside have so much black death - someone made a mistake in the WIS.

Aqua Puttana
02-21-2013, 11:29 AM
Its always been specified as 7Nm+90+90 on the OM612 in my ML270CDI. I've done 4 out of the five so far on that.

I've not had to do a Sprinter injector yet, but seeing as how its also a OM612, I will be doing 90+90 for sure when the time comes. Maybe this is why you guys Stateside have so much black death - someone made a mistake in the WIS.

That would explain a repeat failure after replacement, but shouldn't all engines be assembled similarly at the factory regardless of their intended market/destination?

vic


Edit: (after TH43's "Thanks".)
If I need to replace any injectors, until I see some good results of 90+90 posted, I've already decided that 90 then 45 degrees is what I'll apply. I'm nervous about breaking a bolt. My guess is that another 45 is safe. A big FWIW on this one.

Glow Plug
02-21-2013, 09:21 PM
Its always been specified as 7Nm+90+90 on the OM612 in my ML270CDI. I've done 4 out of the five so far on that.

I've not had to do a Sprinter injector yet, but seeing as how its also a OM612, I will be doing 90+90 for sure when the time comes. Maybe this is why you guys Stateside have so much black death - someone made a mistake in the WIS.

Are the hold down bolts identical to the ones on the ML270CDI? Same size, length, and part #, do they engage the same number of threads? Is the copper washer the same thickness? If everything does match up to be the same, then it probably is a mistake in the WIS.

owner
02-21-2013, 09:23 PM
Ive only had one repeat failure using 7Nm+90+90 and that was on an injector that had a groove worn into its face. Ive done 30000km on some of them.

Yes they are the exact same parts. And exact same engine.

But dont just take my word for it. Look at some UK forums, its common knowledge that its always been 7Nm + 90 + 90 on these engines.

Aqua Puttana
02-21-2013, 10:01 PM
...

But dont just take my word for it. Look at some UK forums, its common knowledge that its always been 7Nm + 90 + 90 on these engines.
Nothing personal. Your word is good. I've been reading your posts for quite some time and you have great credibility from my perspective. :thumbup:

It's just a bit of a leap from what has been published.

I now have 5 re-installed injectors done to the "torque + 90" in the book. Do I purchase new bolts and seals, remove and re-install them to the torque +90+90, or take a wait and see approach? I'm certain that I have time to decide, but it is a bit of a poser. :idunno:

vic

owner
02-22-2013, 12:44 AM
Yeah, it takes balls of steel to crank that extra 90 deg even when the WIS does say to. I haven't actually checked the WIS for my sprinter, only for my ML.

surlyoldbill
02-22-2013, 01:06 AM
A hot bolt is a weak bolt. That may be why the 90 then another 90. Cranking tight too fast creates heat.

owner
02-22-2013, 07:58 AM
That would explain a repeat failure after replacement, but shouldn't all engines be assembled similarly at the factory regardless of their intended market/destination?
I somehow misread what you said here.

Its an interesting point. I would say there are so many variables involved in black death, a blanket "it will leak after x mileage" won't be applicable. In NAFTA land you do have EGR and crap fuel, which I suspect are both major contributors.

So those who do suffer from a factory virgin leak "early", are going to be more likely to also suffer repeat failures too, regardless of the factory torque being re-applied.

But the lack of the extra 90deg in NAFTA land is going to make you even more susceptible to black death once that factory seal is opened.

mean_in_green
02-22-2013, 08:02 AM
"what percentage of T1N's will get the black death?"

All of 'em, eventually. If rust doesn't kill them first.

(Actually that's only partly true...).

Aqua Puttana
02-22-2013, 12:20 PM
... In NAFTA land you do have EGR and crap fuel, which I suspect are both major contributors.

So those who do suffer from a factory virgin leak "early", are going to be more likely to also suffer repeat failures too, regardless of the factory torque being re-applied.

But the lack of the extra 90deg in NAFTA land is going to make you even more susceptible to black death once that factory seal is opened ...
There are various theories as to why we seem to suffer more here. The general fuel quality may enter the mix, but there must be other places in the world with similar poor quality fuel? I suspect that as with so many things it is more than one simple factor as you suggest.

Now to the real reason for my reply...

How long has the bolt and claw hold down method been employed? Has there been any change in design of MB direct injector seal methods? Not everyone suffers rampant seal seat leakage. Maybe the design is just fine overall? Few things in life are 100%.

"what percentage of T1N's will get the black death?"

All of 'em, eventually. If rust doesn't kill them first.

(Actually that's only partly true...).

:lol:

I was going to go there earlier, but you said it better so I'm glad that I refrained. :thumbup:

vic

talkinghorse43
02-22-2013, 12:34 PM
"what percentage of T1N's will get the black death?"

All of 'em, eventually. If rust doesn't kill them first.

(Actually that's only partly true...).

And, even though the NCV3's v6 has exactly the same hold down arrangement (bolt, claw, etc.), we haven't heard of one instance of black death for them. Even here in NAFTA-land.

Aqua Puttana
02-22-2013, 12:44 PM
And, even though the NCV3's v6 has exactly the same hold down arrangement (bolt, claw, etc.), we haven't heard of one instance of black death for them. Even here in NAFTA-land.
Is there a difference in compression ratios? 5 cylinders need to work harder than 6 to push the same van around??? vic

Edit: Of course that second comment would apply the same to 4 cylinders vs 5, so maybe not a factor?

irish sprinter
02-22-2013, 01:01 PM
as i am new here guys and new to this black death, as far as i can make out its a problem with leaking injectors,dose it happen on euopean 313 cdi,s. what should i look out for and how do i check to see if i have it. thanks. hope i dont sound stupit

talkinghorse43
02-22-2013, 01:08 PM
It has been reported on the 4-pot engines. Just take off the plastic top cover and look around the injector bases for a black tar-like deposit.

mean_in_green
02-22-2013, 02:54 PM
Yes, it most certainly does affect European ones! As the man says, whip off that top cover to see what yours is doing.

Keep in mind too: The Black Death is not necessarily the end for your engine!

surlyoldbill
02-22-2013, 03:35 PM
On the topic, I remember someone posting that oven cleaner helps get the carbon deposits out...
Once deposits are removed, the injector(s) can be removed and new seals put in.
Black Death does NOT mean the engine is fried.

Boater
02-22-2013, 03:42 PM
Simon - Does black death affect the non-CDI engines used before 2000 (OM601 and OM602)? I am late to the party and there is not much talk of them now so I haven't come accross any references to BD, but this may simply be coincidence?

FWIW the OM602 injector clamp down bolt spec is either 7 or 8 Nm + 90 + 90.
The bolt is M7x1 not M6 like the CDIs so the alloy head can take a little more torque before you strip it.

I was just wondering if the fuel rail/injection pressure is in any way related, the non-CDI engines inject from about 190-400bar, CDI are 1800bar+.
Does the release of fuel at that pressure cause a kick back in the injector which gradually fatigues the bolted connection leading to the bolt becoming plastic at lower stress level thus releasing the tension so it can back out?
(or is that a bit technical?)

Jim

MillionMileSprinter
02-22-2013, 04:10 PM
Black Death does NOT mean the engine is fried.

Very true. Search "black death" on the forum and you will find many write ups about people finding it, cleaning it up and getting back to 100%.
There's one recent post that has photos that are particularly disturbing. IIRC, he cleaned it up and everything is ok now.

llmaurice
02-22-2013, 04:15 PM
I'm pleased to say that our old 312d is clean and dry as as a bone round the injectors .
Currently on 240K .
It carries a single seater FF2000 car so is fully laden every time it's used what with ramps ,wheels tyres ,tools and us on board .
It's a '99 lwb hi-roof so limited on how much one can throw on board but it sits well with that weight.

talkinghorse43
02-22-2013, 04:28 PM
FWIW the OM602 injector clamp down bolt spec is either 7 or 8 Nm + 90 + 90.
The bolt is M7x1 not M6 like the CDIs so the alloy head can take a little more torque before you strip it.

So, it appears likely that the misprint (one 90) is in the '03 (and following?) NAFTA service manual(s) since this spec (two 90s) is so old. AND, back to square one since, even using the old spec, black death happens with the inline CDI engines in all markets.

mean_in_green
02-22-2013, 09:15 PM
Simon - Does black death affect the non-CDI engines used before 2000 (OM601 and OM602)? I am late to the party and there is not much talk of them now so I haven't come accross any references to BD, but this may simply be coincidence?
Jim

Jim, my earliest experience began with an '89 307D, followed later by a '93 410D. No Black Death issues with either over 650,000 miles. I've never thought about it but the theory of the far higher fuel pressure compared to the non common rail engines would seem plausible wouldn't it?

owner
02-22-2013, 09:45 PM
The older sprinters aren't commonrail, they are only direct injection. Which is a totally different proposition. Far lower power output per litre.

UK forums are littered with black death on all CDI engines in all sorts of vehicles. This includes other manufacturers not just MB.

MB did introduce a revised clamp for the OM61x, which is now a forged part.

I believe the latest CDI4 engines use a piezo fired multi-pulse injector, which is far more likely to change things than the engine layout. You will find out soon enough once the V6 is discontinued. CDI2 and 3 uses a mechanical solenoid fired injector and it only has 2 pulses, a pilot pulse and then the main pulse.

Boater
02-23-2013, 12:31 AM
Jim, my earliest experience began with an '89 307D, followed later by a '93 410D. No Black Death issues with either over 650,000 miles. I've never thought about it but the theory of the far higher fuel pressure compared to the non common rail engines would seem plausible wouldn't it?

Yeah, but I can do plausible theories all day, getting data to work out if they are any good is trickier. :idunno:

comsigns
02-23-2013, 03:19 AM
my 05 with 120k is good to go.

Throttlejockey
02-23-2013, 02:06 PM
I bought my 04 recently with 224K and didn't know about the black death and was scared to remove the cover to check. I was pleasantly surprised to see it squeeky clean under there.

mean_in_green
02-23-2013, 03:48 PM
Yeah, but I can do plausible theories all day, getting data to work out if they are any good is trickier. :idunno:

You know what? Thinking about fuel delivery etc. I bought a set of five injectors for my 410D quite a few years ago - guess how much all five cost back then? 150!

Boater
02-24-2013, 01:39 AM
You know what? Thinking about fuel delivery etc. I bought a set of five injectors for my 410D quite a few years ago - guess how much all five cost back then? 150!

You know how to kick a guy when he's down! :cry:

Still got a problem with my injector with needle lift sensor (sensor is dead) - my preferred/local diesel specialist was struggling to identify it to get me a new one, but I have had a quote from elsewhere for the best part of 500 for just that injector. A gamble with a second hand one appears not to have paid off, even though I got the seller to check it before buying.

mean_in_green
02-24-2013, 06:00 AM
Look on the bright side: at least you can swap at home. Those of us with Euro5 and later only have the dealer option - after 2010 injector coding was moved into the group of parts that require direct initialization / string coding from Germany.

Another sneaky maintenance tie in...

Ciprian
02-24-2013, 06:13 AM
Add mine to the club of Black Deathers. 534,000 miles :(

red_johnny
02-24-2013, 08:03 PM
2006 with over 260,000 miles and no death.

thinice
02-25-2013, 03:05 AM
I know you men of science will probably scoff when I say it, but I hope this doesn't put the jinx on my van Karma by reporting 166,000 thousand with no Black Death yet.:thumbup:

Aqua Puttana
02-25-2013, 12:18 PM
Everyone knows that stuff is hooey. Personally, I would only scoff if you neglected to knock/touch wood while you hit send for the post.

Good luck

vic

I know you men of science will probably scoff when I say it, but I hope this doesn't put the jinx on my van Karma by reporting 166,000 thousand with no Black Death yet.:thumbup:

abittenbinder
02-26-2013, 05:38 AM
I now have 5 re-installed injectors done to the "torque + 90" in the book. Do I purchase new bolts and seals, remove and re-install them to the torque +90+90, or take a wait and see approach? I'm certain that I have time to decide, but it is a bit of a poser. :idunno:

vic

Please see my latest Dr. A Tech Alert on this very subject.

Doktor A

Aqua Puttana
02-26-2013, 10:51 AM
Andy,
Thanks for taking the time to investigate and report back to us. :thumbup:

Being that I do regularly inspect for signs of seal seat leakage I believe I will leave well enough alone.

For those looking for the Tech Alert the thread is here:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25300

vic

vanven
03-01-2013, 03:40 PM
Maybe this should be a "This is what I drive, this is how many miles I have and I DON'T have Black Death" thread.
Informal but somewhat informative.
I'll start.
'02 T1N 116,xxx miles. No Black Death.

03 145K no Black Death

It would sure be nice to have a histogram of this data.

Coast2Coast
03-05-2013, 07:59 AM
Anyone on here ever experience the black death after 200k?

mean_in_green
03-05-2013, 09:57 AM
Yes.

Ciprian
03-05-2013, 01:24 PM
Anyone on here ever experience the black death after 200k?

Yes, 535k.

Aqua Puttana
03-05-2013, 03:30 PM
Anyone on here ever experience the black death after 200k?

Yes. Condition discovered at about 215,000. Lava build up. Never any chuffing noise even though I delayed injector seal replacement. I would not recommend delaying repairs as I did though. vic

Coast2Coast
03-05-2013, 04:39 PM
Yes. Condition discovered at about 215,000. Lava build up. Never any chuffing noise even though I delayed injector seal replacement. I would not recommend delaying repairs though. vic


In that case I think I will pull my cover tomorrow. Just hit 192,000 :smirk:

seans
03-05-2013, 10:54 PM
98K miles, just checked, no black death.

I have been using Shell 45 cetane from the local Shell station and adding Diesel Kleen in the hopes that this will put the fuel closer to what one finds in Europe (without being sure exactly how that would benefit the vehicle, and hoping it will keep Black Death at bay... any comments on this?

Boater
03-06-2013, 12:00 AM
98K miles, just checked, no black death.

I have been using Shell 45 cetane from the local Shell station and adding Diesel Kleen in the hopes that this will put the fuel closer to what one finds in Europe (without being sure exactly how that would benefit the vehicle, and hoping it will keep Black Death at bay... any comments on this?

I think Mean in Green's answer tells you all you need to know!
Black death happens in Europe too!

cravings
08-12-2013, 09:57 PM
may as well ad myself on to this thread...

year 2000, 313CDI, black death very much evident from about 110,000 miles.

MikeHowe
08-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Yes, discovered at 143,000, very bad case (I've written about it on my own thread and on Dr A's technical alert).

glvu
08-13-2013, 02:41 PM
2003, 212k, no black death