PDA

View Full Version : Used oil analysis


jackbombay
01-31-2013, 02:36 AM
I haven't seen anyone post about having their used oil analyzed, but I do it from time to time on my vehicles and my sprinter doesn't seem to be in as good of health as I thought. The first UOA had high aluminum, and I just got the results from the 2nd UOA and the aluminum is still high and the iron is a bit elevated along with the molybdenum. The aluminum is likely coming from the pistons :-/

Here are the numbers,

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/sprinterUOA2.gif

I will say the van start and runs great, cold starts at 0* F are near perfect, its actually the best starting vehicle we own, I've never had a need to start it at temps colder than 0* (we get way colder than that here) but I'm confident that it would do fine to at least -10*.

The van doesn't have that many miles on it, 114k, but I think the previous owner drove it harder than he let on.

At any rate, does anyone have any experience with UOAs and sprinters?

I suppose worrying won't do much, I'll drive it till it runs crappy and then rebuild the engine and we only put about 10k to 12k miles a year on it so I'm sure it'll be a long time before it needs a rebuild, but...

Old Crows
01-31-2013, 03:06 AM
What oil? What grade? What engine?

jackbombay
01-31-2013, 03:28 AM
I use Mobil 1 5/40 European car formula.

2003, om612

Amboman
01-31-2013, 04:04 AM
Whilst the table numbers of oil derivatives and contaminants may be analysed appropriately that has to be one most inexperienced apprentice technician text data conclusions i have read, making spurious assumptions about the aluminium what evidence does he have that its piston related?? :thinking:

jackbombay
01-31-2013, 04:17 AM
Where else is there aluminum in the engine?

talkinghorse43
01-31-2013, 04:26 AM
I use Mobil 1 5/40 European car formula.

2003, om612

0w40?

jackbombay
01-31-2013, 04:33 AM
Ahhh,yes, 0/40

owner
01-31-2013, 04:43 AM
Where else is there aluminum in the engine?
Bearing shells have a layer of Aluminium, no?

autostaretx
01-31-2013, 05:37 AM
There have been threads in the past with oil analysis reports.
I haven't the time to locate the thread, but here's one report from a 2003 Sprinter using Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 (yes, 5, not zero) at 14,744 miles:
(featuring aluminum...)

49979


--dick

jackbombay
01-31-2013, 05:51 AM
There have been threads in the past with oil analysis reports.
I haven't the time to locate the thread, but here's one report from a 2003 Sprinter using Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 (yes, 5, not zero) at 14,744 miles:
(featuring aluminum...)

--dick

Thanks for finding that, I did search for UOAs and found nothing :-/

I suppose that is "good news" I imagine that most of the sprinter UOAs are done on fleet vehicles that run for 8 hours a day so those engines have less heat cycling which is easier on the engine...

Amboman
01-31-2013, 08:06 AM
Where else is there aluminum in the engine?

What is the cylinder head made from??

jackbombay
01-31-2013, 01:36 PM
The head is aluminum, but baring a bizare wear issue I don't think there should really be wear metals coming from the structure of the head.

Here are a couple responses I got from a guy on TDI club that is quite knowledgeable when it comes to UOAs, I had noted the soot and fuel numbers were low which is obviously good and it looks like things are not all that bad.

Jack,

Everything looks fine except the Al, given that you went almost 50% longer on this service interval. The moly is supposed to be there, it's part of the additive chemistry. The Al is usually from the piston skirts, scuffing against the cylinder walls. Without knowing more about the metallurgy of this engine it's hard to say what the Al level should be. I'm guessing this engine does hold a lot of oil though? The ring wear is low, as is fuel dilution. So it seems like you're getting excellent compression.

The oil is actually in very good shape and silicon & soot are low, so those aren't the issue.

There could be some clean up of sludge/varnish/carbon deposits, due to neglected maintenance before you got the van. I'd change the oil again after 7000-8000 miles to flush out the engine, then test the oil you run after that. You may find that aluminum number will settle down. There's nothing obviously wrong with this engine. It seems to actually be running very clean.


Jack,

The oil in your latest sample after 17.4K miles is actually in better qualitative shape than in the previous analysis. Have the driving conditions been about the same for these two service intervals? If so, that means things are trending in the right direction. I'm generally familiar with the ASSYST software; it's one of the best oil life monitors available.

These analyses show that with a big oil sump and 15 ppm sulfur, ULSD fuel you can run very long service intervals....Soot is a non-issue here.

Amboman
01-31-2013, 01:56 PM
The head is aluminum, but baring a bizare wear issue I don't think there should really be wear metals coming from the structure of the head.


What do the titanium valves hit at 50 times per second ??

Myself there is no way i will run an engine for 30,000 kms without an oil change, that may be
hyperbole recommendations specifically aimed at fleet owners for not being able to have their trucks off the road for servicing with the "time is money" protocol.

Aqua Puttana
01-31-2013, 02:09 PM
What do the titanium valves hit at 50 times per second ??

...
For one thing the valves aren't titanium. They may be a ferrous alloy that includes titanium, but not titanium as such. The valves hit a hard alloy valve seat insert. Cast aluminum would in no way hold up to that service. The valves generally run up and down in a bronze sleeve insert. Again, cast aluminum wouldn't hold up to the service. Aluminum from the combustion chamber surface is a possibility. Piston or maybe some sort of alloy bearing wear is more likely. FWIW. vic

Amboman
01-31-2013, 02:27 PM
Valve seat regression

Rattfink
01-31-2013, 03:29 PM
Some things to consider, The PPM averages of foreign materials used as a baseline in these UOAs are based on oils that meet the interval between oil changes, in the case of a Sprinter, 10,000 miles. If the interval is exceeded (17,400 miles), the "normal" amount of foreign matter, suspended in the oil will increase beyond the oil's ability to suspend the debris and this debris will act as an abrasive, grinding even more abrasive material into the oil (vicious circle)
Use Mobil-1 5W-40 ESP (Emission System Protection) Formula M fully synthetic motor oil and a Mercedes-Benz filter (the extra 63 cents for the filter will not kill anyone).
NEVER go more than 10,000 miles between oil changes on your Sprinter...EVER.

Colorado_Al
01-31-2013, 04:25 PM
Here's a UOA I had done a while back. I found out (after 1500 miles) that the seller I bought it from put the wrong oil in. I put in Rotella T6 and ran it for about 5000m. Then sent it out for analysis. I'm changing oil again this weekend, and sending a sample out, so I'll post when I get the results.

2003 T1N, Rotella T6 oil

jackbombay
02-01-2013, 01:54 AM
Some things to consider, The PPM averages of foreign materials used as a baseline in these UOAs are based on oils that meet the interval between oil changes, in the case of a Sprinter, 10,000 miles. If the interval is exceeded (17,400 miles), the "normal" amount of foreign matter, suspended in the oil will increase beyond the oil's ability to suspend the debris and this debris will act as an abrasive, grinding even more abrasive material into the oil (vicious circle)
Use Mobil-1 5W-40 ESP (Emission System Protection) Formula M fully synthetic motor oil and a Mercedes-Benz filter (the extra 63 cents for the filter will not kill anyone).
NEVER go more than 10,000 miles between oil changes on your Sprinter...EVER.

On the first oil change listed on the UOA sheet the ASSYST system told me I needed to change the oil after I had traveled 12,400 miles. For the second UOA the ASSYST system told me to change the oil at 15,500 miles, but as the first UOA had shown that the oil was still in good shape I went a little further, and the oil was in better shape (Higher TBN) for the second UOA than it was for the first even though there were 5,000 more miles on the oil.

There was hardly any foreign matter in my oil, the "insolubles" is the figure to look at on the UOA to see this, even with the extended oil run my insolubles (primarily soot) was still half of the allowable number so there was no debris acting as an abrasive in my engine.

What are you basing your recommendation for 10,000 mile OCIs on?


Colorado Al, it looks like you have high aluminum as well, I actually haven't seen a UOA from a T1N sprinter that doesn't have high aluminum, but I haven't seen a whole lot.

sailquik
02-01-2013, 02:38 AM
Colorado Al,
Can you tell us why you have decided on 5w-40 Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic?
All the online manuals /printed owners manuals that come with the Sprinters from the factory/ virtually every scrap of information on the "correct" fluids to use
seem to all point at 0w-40 full synthetics as the optimum multi-viscosity oil for use in T1N (OM-612/Om-647) 5 cylinder inline Sprinters.
Roger

owner
02-01-2013, 02:53 AM
Hmmmm, are the cams just run straight in the head on these? That could explain the high aluminium compared to other engines I guess.

jackbombay
02-01-2013, 03:14 AM
Hmmmm, are the cams just run straight in the head on these? That could explain the high aluminium compared to other engines I guess.

That did cross my mind.

Aqua Puttana
02-01-2013, 03:38 AM
...NEVER go more than 10,000 miles between oil changes on your Sprinter...EVER.

Only because you are so emphatic in telling people what oil change interval to follow...

Can you cite some supporting documentation for your claim that changing engine oil prematurely is good for the environment? I'd be interested in supporting documentation showing that not changing Sprinter engine oil at a 10,000 mile interval reduces expected engine service life.

You might like to do some reading.

A version of the ASSYST has been available in MB vehicles since 1997. If it wasn't working properly wouldn't they stop offering it?
Page #13 here.
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_215_0.pdf

Multiple Discussions here with participation by some experts..
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Do with my information what you will. vic

Aqua Puttana
02-01-2013, 04:00 AM
Hmmmm, are the cams just run straight in the head on these? That could explain the high aluminium compared to other engines I guess.

The camshaft housing comes complete with bearing caps. Maybe the bearings have some aluminum in the alloy?

2.7L

HOUSING. Camshaft Bearing. .
With Camshaft Bearing Caps, With Caps, With Covers.
Stock Code 05080072AA
Manufacturer Chrysler
Categories Engine > Cylinder Head



http://www.factorychryslerparts.com/products/HOUSING-Camshaft-Bearing-With-Camshaft-Bearing-Caps--With-Caps--With-Covers/4477435/05080072AA.html

Amboman
02-01-2013, 05:12 AM
I'd be interested in supporting documentation showing that not changing Sprinter engine oil at a 10,000 mile interval reduces expected engine service life.


A version of the ASSYST has been available in MB vehicles since 1997. If it wasn't working properly wouldn't they stop offering it?

Do with my information what you will. vic

Vic, Not that you asked FWIW :laughing:


http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_215_0.pdf

3.7.3 General recommendation
Due to oil analyses it is possible to shorten the oil change interval but not to extend it under any circumstances. :thumbup:

From my understanding the ASSYST determines a trigger at a certain level of particulate contamination, but there is kilometres travelled and engine hours two different types of calculations to take into consideration the ASSYST possibly does this OK as a yardstick but do you really want to trust your $15000 dollar engine to a flip flop device. :popcorn:

1cylshort
02-01-2013, 12:59 PM
I hereby declare:

OIL THREAD!

jackbombay
02-01-2013, 01:24 PM
3.7.3 General recommendation
Due to oil analyses it is possible to shorten the oil change interval but not to extend it under any circumstances. :thumbup:

And my ASSYST system didn't tell me to change the oil till 15,500 miles so the 10,000 mile interval mentioned earlier is kind if meaningless.




For anyone weighing in on this potential oil war, please do not post to simply state your opinion, you must also post supporting evidence if you want to further this discussion, or any other discussion for that matter.


Once you have composed your post look at graham's hierarchy of discussion and see which level your post rises to, if it doesn't make it to at least the 5th level don't bother posting it :-)

Thanks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.jpg

Aqua Puttana
02-01-2013, 01:56 PM
...
3.7.3 General recommendation
Due to oil analyses it is possible to shorten the oil change interval but not to extend it under any circumstances. :thumbup:
My post was tirggered by the 10000 mile oil change interval OCI "NEVER...EVER..." comment and I specified page #13 for ASSYST reference.

From my understanding the ASSYST determines a trigger at a certain level of particulate contamination, but there is kilometres travelled and engine hours two different types of calculations to take into consideration the ASSYST possibly does this OK as a yardstick ...
Your understanding is very basically correct, but there is a bunch more information out there as to what the ASSYST technology really does/includes. I recommend an information search should anyone be interested about whether or not one wants to trust the ASSYST information. I researched and I use it.

but do you really want to trust your $15000 dollar engine to a flip flop device? :popcorn:
Yes, I do. So do you think that ASSYST is a plot for Mercedes Benz to ruin your engine to sell you another Sprinter sooner? Many people didn't trust hydraulic brakes when they were first introduced. Time has shown they are a good thing. ASSYST has been around for close to 16 years.

Saying that anything other than a 10000 mile OCI will ruin your engine is unsubstantiated misinformation at this point. That was my issue.

Change your oil whenever you choose. Use only MB branded and packaged original parts for your repairs. I don't care. Just don't throw out unsubstantiated information and opinion as "fact". It amounts to background noise. The trouble is that without further research or rebuttal some people might believe it to be the true "fact" as it was presented. I'm done. vic

jackbombay
02-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Well put, Vic.

Rattfink
02-01-2013, 02:57 PM
What are you basing your recommendation for 10,000 mile OCIs on? .
Excellent question. I am not trying to insult you or in any way hurt you, I am trying to help you. I am basing the 10,000 mile interval recommendation on Mercedes-Benz factory recommendations, specifically the latest owners maintenance manuals, W.I.S. document AP00.20-D-0000-10FL and 28 years of Mercedes Benz service experience where I have, many times, been consulted by the engineers who design the lubrication systems, the ASSYST systems and the deisel fuel management systems. These people are a whole lot smarter than I am and the 10,000 mile service interval is not just some arbitrary number. It is, granted, a rounded number, representing the optimal mileage for engine longevity, cost of ownership and it is a simple number to remember :hugs:.

Aqua Puttana
02-01-2013, 03:44 PM
Continuing with the trend. Some anecdotal support in favor of ASSYST is here.

Exceeding 10K miles w/o oil change?
Post #5.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34686#post34686

840,000KM on pne engine
Post #7.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=124853#post124853

vic

Colorado_Al
02-02-2013, 06:21 PM
Colorado Al,
Can you tell us why you have decided on 5w-40 Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic?
All the online manuals /printed owners manuals that come with the Sprinters from the factory/ virtually every scrap of information on the "correct" fluids to use
seem to all point at 0w-40 full synthetics as the optimum multi-viscosity oil for use in T1N (OM-612/Om-647) 5 cylinder inline Sprinters.
Roger

Hey Roger. My manual states I should use MB 228.3 or MB 228.5 oil.
According to bevo, the synthetics recommended are 5W-40.

I know that Rotella T6 is actually MB 228.31. I really don't think that it is a problem. There are some oils listed on the 228.3 that are also listed on 228.31. If 228.31 oil is never to be used in one calling for 228.3, how is it possible for an oil to be listed as both?
For example, Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 is listed as both 228.3 and 228.31.

Anyhow, Rotella T6 is the oil I use and have had no problems with it.

Aqua Puttana
02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
:shifty:

pssst... Hey Al,

That damn non-approved oil residue has turned the entire front of your Sprinter white. vic

:tongue: :bounce: :cheers:

Hey Roger. My manual states I should use MB 228.3 or MB 228.5 oil.
According to bevo, the synthetics recommended are 5W-40.

I know that Rotella T6 is actually MB 228.31. I really don't think that it is a problem. There are some oils listed on the 228.3 that are also listed on 228.31. If 228.31 oil is never to be used in one calling for 228.3, how is it possible for an oil to be listed as both?
For example, Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 is listed as both 228.3 and 228.31.

Anyhow, Rotella T6 is the oil I use and have had no problems with it.

Amboman
02-03-2013, 03:38 AM
So do you think that ASSYST is a plot for Mercedes Benz to ruin your engine to sell you another Sprinter sooner?

No. I believe its a plan to help busy fleet owners actually make a date for a service instead of none at all, so in a way it may be monetary driven but may be a "we care if you don't" reminder.

If you asked the same question about the non repairable cylinder head i would say "yes" because there is a term called "built in obsolescence" to which the head seems to have a direct link or too tight a tolerance to allow any machining.

rlent
02-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Hmmmm, are the cams just run straight in the head on these? That could explain the high aluminium compared to other engines I guess.
Bingo :smilewink:

There are no bearing "inserts" cradling the camshafts - they run directly in the head and the caps/saddles securing them.

Boater
02-04-2013, 09:25 PM
For anyone weighing in on this potential oil war, please do not post to simply state your opinion, you must also post supporting evidence if you want to further this discussion, or any other discussion for that matter.


Once you have composed your post look at graham's hierarchy of discussion and see which level your post rises to, if it doesn't make it to at least the 5th level don't bother posting it :-)

Thanks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.jpg

Seriously, how long does it really take to change the oil and filter? :idunno:
Changing it a bit earlier than absolutely necessary won't do any harm. :popcorn:

That's my opinion and I have nothing to back it up at all - the ASSYST system on my 1996 sprinter is the Mk1 Human Eyeball and is not connected to any kind of display, or reliable memory device so I have absolutely no data to support my opinion. :cheers:

Aqua Puttana
02-04-2013, 10:03 PM
...Changing it a bit earlier than absolutely necessary won't do any harm. :popcorn:

... :cheers:
I guess you are correct. Given all the pollution we throw out driving around in our vehicles, changing the oil more often than is necesaary is but one more drop in the environmental bucket. That doesn't matter at all. Even though recycling oil takes energy, don't worry at all about that either. :idunno:

Hey, we all recycle that bit of paper each trash day. We're doing our part.:thumbup:.................... :dripsarcasm::dripsarcasm:


I use the ASSYST because I'm cheap and I think it is good technology overall.


We're but mere amateurs here when it comes to oil discussion. Go over to this forum if you want to play with the big guns. Maybe start here.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1900212

:cheers: vic

Boater
02-04-2013, 11:47 PM
He he, my colleague 'recycles' his used engine oil by painting the woodwork on his garage with it instead of using preservative :lol:

I was however referring more to engine harm than environmental, there is only so much harm we can to do the environment with oil before we use it all up. Now I'm not saying that the harm we can do is not significant, just that we seem hell bent on using every last drop so by putting off oil changes we are simply pushing back the moment it runs out and prolonging the period of environmental damage, although the intensity may be reduced.

There you go, 2 posts without progressing the discussion or even sticking to the main thrust of it, yet I can't place either on the pyramid, I must be doing something wrong!

I haven't had time to read the lathe forums for a while, there is nothing quite like a spindle oil discussion, or better still a discussion about the correct grades to use on different parts of a southbend based on the several contradictory oiling charts they published over years, especially whether or not one should stick to 140w oil in the cone pulley or use PTFE grease, and if using PTFE grease is it to the exact specification southbend had made for the period when they recommended it? My 13" is running fine with superlube in the pulley, whether it is to the original specification or another product that happens to have picked the same name, I don't know or care, the pulley has never seized when running in backgear since I switched to it.

Sorry, that's really getting obtuse now! :spam:

Aqua Puttana
02-05-2013, 12:09 AM
I don't disagree with your overview of our oil consumption for the long term, but saving what we can may help a tiny bit. It'd be a shame for all that plant life and creatures to have died in vain.

...correct grades to use on different parts of a Southbend ...Sorry, that's really getting obtuse now! :spam:
Wouldn't know. My benchtop engine lathe is an Atlas brand. :tongue:

Anyway... back to topic for those who haven't lost interest. vic

Amboman
02-05-2013, 12:58 AM
Renamed the pyramid thread...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3xH0e-B2bRU/UPVEwdIT56I/AAAAAAAAAJE/3HFnWXXmrRI/s1600/Learning+Pyramid.jpg

jackbombay
02-05-2013, 04:26 AM
We're you offended by my post?

david_42
04-04-2013, 04:01 PM
There's Blackstone Laboratories in Indiana. They charge $25 and will send you the sampling kit for free.