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BigBlueBus
12-04-2007, 01:43 PM
Hello all.
Has anyone had any luck with the programmers on a new Sprinter? they claim to boost power by 45HP and improve MPGs. Are there any negative side effects, is it detectable and if so, will it void the warranty?
thanks in advance.
John

Sprinter
12-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Hello all.
Has anyone had any luck with the programmers on a new Sprinter? they claim to boost power by 45HP and improve MPGs. Are there any negative side effects, is it detectable and if so, will it void the warranty?
thanks in advance.
John

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1981

talkinghorse43
12-04-2007, 03:32 PM
Hello all.
Has anyone had any luck with the programmers on a new Sprinter? they claim to boost power by 45HP and improve MPGs. Are there any negative side effects, is it detectable and if so, will it void the warranty?
thanks in advance.
John

Seems to me that if you're interested in longevity of your van, you would be taking a risk by going in that direction. After all, the maker has de-tuned this engine, presumably in the interest of longer life given the challenges that lower quality fuel (lower cetane than in the EU) in the US present. Maybe MB learned from the 612 & 647 engine experience where there were significant #s of failures due to injector seal leaks?

BigBlueBus
12-04-2007, 03:57 PM
From what I understand, these boxes just advance the timing slightly but leave the fuel rail pressure intact. How will just a few degrees of timing have an effect on the seals. Engine failure would only occur if the engine was abused on a regular engine, with or without this timing advance. I've had a programmer on my '03 Dodge Ram with cummins since new and have not had any issues 49k miles later; but that's because I don't race every (or any) pocket rocket that meets me at stop lights; although I'm sure my truck will most likely win. When I switch it to factory setting, it runs like a dog as when it was new and gets worse gas mileage. So, from personal experience, I can tell you that it has helped my truck, especially with the poor fuel formulation in the states. When I took it to the dealer for routine maintenance, I simply unplugged it prior to arrival; no one said anything so I assume it's undetectable. These engines are detuned just to meet the emmission standards, not for longevity, MB or Dodge could care less how long you keep your vehicle running.
I was just wondering if anyone has ever hooked one up to a Sprinter and what their "actual" experiences were.

hkpierce
12-04-2007, 04:31 PM
I was just wondering if anyone has ever hooked one up to a Sprinter and what their "actual" experiences were.

http://www.upscaleauto.com/white_paper.htm

mean_in_green
12-04-2007, 06:06 PM
I ran a piggy back tuning module on my T1N for about three years.

There was a definite improvement in torque. Mine is the 160 engine, an engine significantly detuned from passenger car application.

After a few years the vehicle developed a sporadic fault which was traced to the wiring between the ECU and the loom. The module was removed and the fault hasn't presented itself again since then.

Another thing which was noticed was that the clutch plates were highly coloured when they came out for replacement, more so than normal. It's only speculation, but it may be that the extra power and torque created more heat through these parts. I also suggest the clutch life was reduced, as the previous one lasted longer (250,000 miles vs. 150,000miles).

I decided not to bother refitting the module: 160 durable and reliable horses being more appealing than 185 less stable (sic) ones...

Simon

talkinghorse43
12-04-2007, 08:39 PM
How will just a few degrees of timing have an effect on the seals.

Don't know exactly how every chip causes higher performance, but if torque is increased, then pressure in the cylinder above the piston must have been increased. Higher pressure there will, of course, increase the load on the injector hold-down fixture. (writing here about the seal between the cylinder head and the injector, not any seals on the fuel side)

jdcaples
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
I've had a programmer on my '03 Dodge Ram with cummins since new and have not had any issues 49k miles later; ...

I'm not certain a Sprinter and a Dodge Ram with a Cummins engine is an "apples to apples" comparision.

Let's take injectors, for instance: Last I checked, you can replace your Cummins injectors any way you want w/o impacting functionality. You can have Dynomite Diesel sell you spiffy honed injectors for your Cummins with optimized spray patterns... you can take 'em out and plug 'em in your garage the right wrenches and a little muscle.


For the Sprinter, I read it as being much more complicated. The following is taken from the 2007 Service Manual -> Fuel System -> Standard Procedure -> INJECTOR QUANTITY ADJUSTMENT

---

INJECTOR QUANTITY ADJUSTMENT
The injector quantity adjustment, or classification of injectors describes the quantity, or fuel delivery characteristic of the injector. This will make it possible to match the ECM fuel delivery strategy to the mechanical characteristics of the injector within a more narrowly graduated range. Injector classification can only be performed with a scantool.

The fuel injectors used in this vehicle have a seven digit alphanumeric code, which allows the ECM to determine the fuel quantity characteristic of each injector.

When carrying out service procedures where the injectors are removed from the cylinder head, it is important to observe the original locations of each individual injector, as installing an original injector in the wrong location, vehicle driveability and smoking concerns could result.
If an injector(s) is replaced, or if there is any concern that an injector may not be installed in its original location, the injector quantity adjustment procedure must be performed with the scan tool in order to program the quantity classification (seven digit alphanumeric code) to the corresponding cylinder in the engine control module.

( jc - I'm done calling attention to information with formatting now :) )

INJECTOR CLASSIFICATION PROCEDURE
NOTE: The engine must not be running for this procedure.

NOTE: If installing a new injector, make a note of the seven digit alphanumeric code. You will need to enter it into the scan tool during the Injector Quantity Adjustment procedure.

NOTE: Before performing this procedure, if the ECU has been replaced, or if any injector has been installed anywhere but its original location, make a note of the seven digit alphanumeric codes and the physical location of each injector. You will need to enter them into the scan tool during the Injector Quantity Adjustment procedure.


1. Turn ignition switch “ON”.
2. Using a scantool, select ECU View, then MISCELLANEOUS FUNCTIONS.
3. Select Injector Quantity Adjustment, then NEXT.
4. If the ECU was replaced, the Injector EEPROM Location procedure must be performed. Select YES, then NEXT, and follow the directions on the scan tool. Otherwise, go to step 5.
5. Select the injector(s) that has been replaced, access the keyboard function, and type the seven digit alphanumeric code next to the cylinder number that corresponds to the physical location where the injector has been installed.
6. Click NEXT. The scan tool will prompt to turn the ignition switch off for 12 seconds.
7. Repeat step 5 and 6 for any other injectors that are new, or have been moved from their original location. Once injectors are classified, cycle ignition to complete.
8. Once the seven digit alphanumeric codes for all injectors have been entered into the ECU, cycle ignition to complete the procedure.

---------

You may think that a chip on a Cummins will do the same thing on a Sprinter. I'm not certain I agree, but I'm open to arguments for and against chips. It seems to me that there's a very intimate relationship between the ECU and each injector. I'd like to know how a programmer can improve the situation w/o distrurbing any other unconventional, pehaps unseen relationship-dependencies that might not exist in other applications like a Cummins-, Powerstroke- or Duramax-equipped vehicle.


-Jon

kendall69
12-04-2007, 09:31 PM
...any negative side effects

just one - it will void your Engine and transmission warranty.

BigBlueBus
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
Jon,
Great info...the kind I was looking for. I had no idea these engines were so complicated and advanced. I know the cummins is merely a simple brute, whereas the Sprinter diesel is a very complex and sensitive piece of machinery. Conclusion: better leave it AS IS!
Thanks for all your write-ups, everybody. I enjoy reading this forum, almost as much as my new ride.:thumbup:

jdcaples
12-04-2007, 11:00 PM
A little more detail attached...

(Excerpt):
The injectors incorporate piezoelectric actuators required for high-speed activation. The higher switching speed allows the intervals between individual fuel injections to be reduced and controlled more precisely. This feature contributes to a quiet and more efficient engine.
The fuel injector drive circuit is arranged in two separate banks. Each bank is controlled by a control integrated circuit, which drives the power stage to activate the piezoelectric actuators. Bank 1 is comprised of injectors 4, 5 and 6, while bank 2 is comprised of injectors 1, 2 and 3. The microprocessor receives information concerning the operation of the control integrated circuits and power stages.

The engine requires a high number of injections during normal operation. At an engine speed of 1000 rpm for example, the ECM may activate the injectors up to 250 times every second. Enough energy needs to be quickly stored to activate the injectors within these time constraints. The piezoelectric actuators also require high-voltage for proper operation. To supply the demand of power, each injector bank contains the following stages (see attached)

-Jon

mean_in_green
12-05-2007, 01:39 PM
Also remember that the Actros records any interference with ECU mapping alterations. It's possible that the NCV3 does too.

Simon

Sprinter
12-05-2007, 02:50 PM
You could gain power a little without any harm by improving the air flow when istalling K&N filter. Should be ready soon for 2007 Sprinter.

Also, there is few Shell stations that sell diesel fuel with 45 cetane number vs. most common 40 That makes hell of a difference in both, mileage and power. The last one I found accidentally was somewhere in Pennsylwania near Canadian border. In Illinois where I live they're all 40"s

jdcaples
12-05-2007, 05:06 PM
Also remember that the Actros records any interference with ECU mapping alterations. It's possible that the NCV3 does too.

Simon

There seems to be an answer for everything.... including ECU "interference recording:" ECU cloning!

InMotionUSA's Sprinter Offering (http://www.inmotionusa.com/sprintergraphs.html)


-Jon

BigBlueBus
12-05-2007, 08:28 PM
Ok so what about this InMotion tuning. Will that harm my engine? Those are very impressive HP, Torque gains they claim.
Any thoughts?

jdcaples
12-05-2007, 09:36 PM
Ok so what about this InMotion tuning. Will that harm my engine? Those are very impressive HP, Torque gains they claim.
Any thoughts?

I don't think the gains are worth the risk or the ECU-ectomy trouble.

To whom will you turn if something goes really haywire?

Richard's already said we can't afford his house-call rates. :)

kendall69
12-06-2007, 01:22 AM
...You could gain power a little without any harm by improving the air flow when istalling K&N filter


K&N is the worst thing you can do for an engine.

“Did you see the dirty 2nd filter? Well that is the result of experiment #1. The test subject was the K&N air filter. Yes it let many particles pass through. “

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

I did oil analysis on a vehicle I had - with the K&N silica shot through the room in my oil, removing it brought the levels back to where they should be.

mean_in_green
12-06-2007, 11:41 AM
I waited until I was out of warranty before playing around with mine.

Also consider that I've received goodwill warranty actions from MB outside of the stated warranty period.

I wouldn't go down the K&N + chip/remap route if you're not mentally willing to accept you could be reducing engine life.

You are your own warranty in that situation.

Simon

BigBlueBus
12-06-2007, 03:02 PM
After all your posts...I've decided to leave it alone. Thank You to all that responded.