Re-starting Problem

I have read a bunch of starting threads and not found anything that looks like the problem I had yesterday.

I was away camping for the weekend and slightly paranoid because I still haven't determined for sure that the interior lights etc. don't run off the starter battery, however when I came to leave the van started immediately so I was happy. As I pulled away the rain started and became heavy for a while and I had to drive through several patches of surface water. A few miles down the road I had cause to turn left and noticed the flasher was going double time indicating a fault so I started looking for somewhere convenient to pull over.

I have already noticed that the connectors on the van shake loose from time to time so when I eventually found a lay by I stopped leaving the engine running and thumped the left rear cluster a couple of times and the indicator came back. I then got to thinking if I could check the other lights. The tail light was on (it had been quite dark in the rain), I had no way to press the brakes and check at the same time but I realised I could turn the engine off and check the reverse light so I did.

When I went to turn the engine back on the starter spun OK but the engine wouldn't fire. I popped the bonnet and worked through checking hoses and connections as best I could wondering how it could have been running 30 seconds earlier and now wouldn't start.
I had my workshop manual in the van so I followed through it's advice which was basically to check the electrical connections and if damp is suspected dry them and spray with WD40, so I worked through doing that to all the ones I could unplug easily (wary of breaking brittle connectors miles from home). There was no change so I went back through the checks some more times.

It sounded like the starter was turning fast enough so I figured it must be lack of fuel for some reason (it was mainly the fuel system electrical connectors I was trying to find and check) and although the gauge said I had over 3/4 tank and I knew I should still have over 3/4 tank I added a 5l can to be sure.

I also experimented with easy start, the engine would run for a few seconds on that and die so I am still thinking it is likely to be something to do with the fuel system, perhaps the solenoid not opening as it should or maybe the distribution pump has packed up?

After an hour (in the sunshine, the rain had stopped) I decided I needed to call the RAC out. By the time the patrol arrived it had been about an hour and half since I had stopped, I explained the situation, and as soon as I turned the key the van started. The mechanic turned the engine off and on about 20 times and had a look around and thought it was probably damp in a connection that had dried out so I went on my way.

Just before I got home I stopped to fill up (to work out fuel economy, not because I needed fuel) and the van wouldn't start again so I started checking the same things again and explained to the cashier that it had happened earlier but had started working again on it's own. This time I did notice a sensor with cracked wire insulation which I taped up (no difference) and got a few more connectors apart but basically I must have been on the forecourt for an hour or so when it suddenly started again.

I drove home, and suspecting a pattern I left it running whilst I moved my car. Then reversed it up my drive and turned it off, and to check tried to restart - nothing. So I then unpacked all my stuff from the weekend and about an hour and half later (I didn't open the bonnet at all this time) I went out and it started right away.

Each time when it finally comes back it starts easily, like on the second revolution of the engine, so I am suspecting that I am getting some kind of time out or thermal cutout (which could be a damaged wire or earth connection swelling and contracting I guess). I need to rewire a sensor (it is in the air ducting hidden under another sensor) but I am wondering if anyone has heard of a situation like this before?

The wire to the fuel solenoid seems OK but could it be a duff signal from a sensor tricking the ECU into thinking it shouldn't open the solenoid?

I presume if itwas related to the immobiliser that the starter wouldn't turn?

The van is a LWB 312D from '96 with the 2.9 litre OM602980 engine with turbo.

Thanks in anticipation

Jim

Many have had this problem of cold starts followed by warm no-starts and had a bad injector either leaking fuel into the cylinder or clogged not letting enough fuel in.

check out the injector leak test here: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17149

another possibility is a clogged fuel filter or fuel filter with water, amongst many others

Most everything written in this forum is for common rail engines and I believe yours is not common rail? Anyway, maybe someone from the UK or OZ will chime in to help.

Double time flasher means one of the bulbs (front or back) is not getting current, either loose connector or burned bulb.

talkinghorse43 said:

Most everything written in this forum is for common rail engines and I believe yours is not common rail? Anyway, maybe someone from the UK or OZ will chime in to help.

Click to expand...

That's right, the OM602980 is the non-common rail engine used in the earliest sprinters, i.e. before the US got them I take it all the US versions have common rail injection?

Is the leak off test NelsonSprinter linked to for all engines or just the common rail type?

I will try changing the fuel filter (I needed a cabin filter so bought oil and fuel too intending to run through the service items sometime soon), but I don't see why leaking injectors or blockages would only manifest on a warm engine?

How easy is it to re-prime these if I do pull the leak off hoses and check the quantities - my car is a nightmare to get the fuel system reprimed if there is air in any part, including the leak off hoses (no lift pump, weak injection pump) and I can't quite work out from the manual if I have a lift pump or if that is only for the common rail engine?

Cheers

Jim

surlyoldbill said:

Double time flasher means one of the bulbs (front or back) is not getting current, either loose connector or burned bulb.

Click to expand...

Yep, the connector on the nearside (left) rear cluster is worn out and tends to rattle loose from time to time. I have squeezed the pins a little which helped and was trying to track down spares although between non replies and nonsense replies from garages and breakers I'm not sure if I have found them or not... need to look some more.

I'm pretty sure the indicator had nothing to do with the non-starting, it was simply the reason I switched the engine off, to make sure none of the other pins in the connector were loose after my lazy 'thump fix' for the indicator, which was still working when I got home.

Jim

The camshaft position sensor has been known to fail when hot and cause no start. Not sure of your setup, but on US vans, CPS is under injector cover, back of motor. A quick blast of some freeze spray (canned air for cleaning computer keyboards) onto the CPS should confirm or negate CPS failure when hot.

A bad injector allowing too much fuel to flow back to the tank can also cause a no start when hot.

Not sure of testing on non-common rail injection but if your injectors all have a return on top like in the picture, you should be able to perform the leak-down test http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17149&highlight=leak-off.

Good luck.

I have a feeling this engine might be quite different than the ones most people here know....

I saw a lot of stuff about camshaft sensors in my searches, I don't recall seeing one, and now that I think about it, the injection timing on this engine is mechanical (distributor pump running at half crank speed) so why would it need one?
I do think it is probably a sensor issue though so I will go back and have another look.

One of the symptoms with the CPS seems to be firing on 2 cylinders on the first turn of the engine, I don't get any firing anywhere, it is like the solenoid is shut off, especially since when the fault clears itself the engine starts on the first or second turn.

How can I replicate a high temperature issue at the solenoid for testing purposes?
Is it normal to only have one wire to the solenoid?
I guess it would be grounded by contact with the pump through the engine block so need to check the engine -ve leads, and the +ve to the solenoid obviously?
I suspect that some condition exists that is causing the ECU not to send the signal to open the solenoid....???? Camshaft if fitted would do that, what else? MAP, MAF, Crank sensor?

My injectors are positioned differently to the ones in the photos and the leak off hoses run in an S between each, there is no cover (but maybe it had one), and I'm sure they at are an angle in the left side of the head (antechamber) instead of vertical. The issue I have is that the measurements given are presumably for a certain injector - what if my injectors are different and should leak off more, or less, fuel? I'm kind of loathe to run a diagnostic if I have no way of interpreting the results.... fingers crossed someone here does know the measurements for mine and just hasn't found the thread yet!

Hopefully it will have stopped raining here by tonight so I can have another look around - some summer we are having.....

Thanks for all the suggestions - I know my habit of trying to think through the why's and if's might look like I am dismissing some ideas without trying them. Once I figure out the most likely ones I will work through all of them until I find the problem - sometimes solutions I can't find a logical reason for are the ones that work!

Jim

Jim.
Your motor is different to the ones being described here.
Your motor has mechanical injection so each injector is a seperate unit so one leaking injector is not going to cause a non start. The amount of fuel injected is controled by some electronics built into the injector pump. I have never seen a 312 with starting problems so I am only guessing but I would try cooling the electronics on the pump next time it plays up, If that makes it start then you have a clue. Please keep us posted on what you find. Eric.

Morning boater , I have a 2.9 sprinter

First off your motor IS NOT common rail never was , cannot be !!!!! . It is fitted with a rotary pump & individual injector pipes & mechanical injectors . ONE OF WHICH has a sensor fitted . when that goes bust up , you get instant LHM ( been there , sworn at it )

Check for air being fed to the pump from the fuel filter , behind the filter are two clear ( HA ! ) pipes . one comes from the tank into filter & the shorter one runs to the injection pump . you should be able to see air travelling in the pipes if there is a leak a few small bubbles is nothing to worry about , fuel arriving at the filter looking like bubble bath being emptied out is bad news . Fuel is drawn from the tank by the injection pump , so you have a long section under vacuum . I had mine fail & die in the pouring rain . Buy diesel proof fuel hose , O clips & nylon pipe from your local hydraulics place . Trolley jack under the tank & drop it away towards the prop shaft , cut off the clip holding the fuel pipe to the sender unit & make sure it is the lift pipe & not the return . slide a section of the rubber pipe onto the nylon hose & crimp on TWO O clips set 90 degrees apart to hold the nylon in the rubber pipe . DO NOT use jubilee clips they do not seal properly , they become oval when tightened . Use two more O clips to secure rubber hose to sender unit . the free end just pushes into the black connector at the filter head . make sure you cut the pipe cleanly with a very sharp knife or you wil have sealing problems . once running , you might see bubbles for a while as the air is purged back into the tank & collected again by the lift pipe . This will stop eventually do not panic .

Quickest cure for the back lights is to buy new bulb holders off ebay , very common fault , you can also remove the whole unit & fit foam sealing tape around apertures to stop water getting in . I personally bought some clear silicone rubber tubing & glued that to a sprinter that leaked water around the lights & suffered crap bulb holders . Once the holder has gone rusty / ****e looking it si pointless wasting time trying to clean it . Another tip pull off the multiplug & spray with WD40 or similar & refit plug . This helps stop the buildup of crap & ensures a decent connection. Oh & if you have a towbar or are going to fit one DO NOT use scotchloks , far better to solder & cover with heatshrink tubing ( Maplins )

if you need any specs I have a manual , drop me a line we older van owners must stick togeather , I think so little about our vans is posted as we suffer so few problems unlike the CDi boys

Cheers Eric and Dingo - that confirms some of my thoughts about what might possibly be wrong or not.

So, no lift pump then, same as my car. I did find one of the clear tubes behind the filter and didn't see any air in it, being on my own though I couldn't check whilst turning over so I will look into that again and clean the clear hoses so I can see better.

It was raining here yesterday so I didn't even go out to the van, certainly wasn't going to change the fuel filter in the rain. How you you normally reprime these after fitting the filter? Is it worth fitting a priming bulb to these or is the extra resistance a problem - or have I missed a priming button on the pump? O-clips noted, used to use them to fit gas and fuel lines when I used to build canal boats, I know my local industrial supplier has the proper pliers and clips.

Using diesel grade hose is easier said than done, I used overbraided hose claiming to be suitable for diesel for leak off pipes on my car (vectra) and they were cracked within 6 months and letting air in (but only when parked facing up hill, in my case on my ramps). I have bought some more (had to use the same stuff last time) but it looks exactly the same (haven't checked numbers yet) so I don't hold out much hope, which reminds me I want to change the leak off hoses before I make an appointment to have the aircon checked and charged, I'd hate for it to fail to start in the garage in case they get other ideas.... Hmm, I might fit a clear section in the vectras leak off pipes so I can see at a glance if I have an air leak problem.

For the lights I was trying to contact various ebay sellers, I think most are selling second hand but some have the connectors as well as the holders, there is at least one selling new parts, I need to contact again and see if he has the connectors too, got out of office before.
There is a towbar and electrics fitted but I haven't seen where it is wired in, no obvious scotchloks at either cluster, there was a wire wrapped and taped around one of the rear light wires (insulation cut back) but it wasn't connected to anything so I removed it and used a crimp connector to get rid of the insulation gap. Something else to look for, although I don't have a trailer just now and I'm still confused over my license entitlement for towing, DVLA have made it as clear as mud! Probably best to just do a B+E course and test.

I have a Haynes manual but it seems pretty thin and defintiely doesn't cover everything I have looked up so far... Im sure I'll be in touch!
Are the Peter Russek manuals that appear on ebay sometimes worth getting?

Jim

Had a few hours without rain tonight so had another look under the bonnet. I could only find one clear section of fuel line (filter to pump) but no sign of air in it with the engine running.

The engine didn't start quite as readily as I had been used to and was a bit smokey, a few minutes later I noticed it was still smokey. Turned off and checked the expansion tank - plenty in there but it seems black and oily. Obviously now suspecting head gasket issue.

Just thinking back to my problem, could it be that when the engine is hot the head expands and moves and creates a condition where the engine can't start? Coolant temperatures seem OK when running, but what if the problem occurs after I switch off and the coolant stops circulating? I guess I'll need to get a leakdown test done.

Any idea what sort of price it should cost to have a garage do the head gasket (assuming head isn't badly warped or cracked)?

It's something I should do myself but I know these things can drag on and I want to use the van in the first week of August....

Jim

Don't know if yours has one, but oil in our model's radiator can be from a leak in the oil cooler.

talkinghorse43 said:

Don't know if yours has one, but oil in our model's radiator can be from a leak in the oil cooler.

Click to expand...

Yes there is an oil cooler, right at the back of the engine.
Will call around on Monday and try to find a garage who can do a leakdown test, if it rules the head/gasket out I'll have to take a look at the oil cooler.

Cheers

Jim

hi jim,
I have a 98 sprinter lwb 312 with exactly the same symptoms as yourself,i was hoping for the answer at the end of this thread lol! I dont know if you have noticed with yours whilst not starting the pre heater light and edc light does not come on,as if the immobiliser has kicked in?the heater light does light up whilst the starter is turning the engine over though...I am wondering if it is the same problem as the newer cdi start error as I do have a chip in my key? I now have a problem with it running rough when it does start and the edc light stays on,trouble is I do not know who to trust to fix my van!