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View Full Version : Bio- Diesel ; there is Good and bad.


CJPJ
02-29-2012, 12:07 AM
Just to start a list. Good and Bad.

Bio -Diesel

Good point ;:bow: Superior Lubracation , the stuff is super slippery, B-5 a 5% mixture will reduces friction by a big number! and at 2.5% it reduces friction, but not so much! B-20, Bio-Diesel reduces friction all most as good as B-99.,
Reduced friction is good! especual when using ULSD. sufler is a lubracant and most of it has been removed. From 2007 up all of the high presure fuel pumps are built to withstand the increased friction from the use of ULSD.

Bad point ;:rant: because it's "superior Lubracating properties" it's a penetrate!

1. IF using B-99 in a motor with less than perfect tolerances, it will weep by the piston rings and dilute the engine oil, requiring monitoring and more frequent oil changes. Even on a new tight motor it will penetrate by the rings diluting its oil, but not enough to require a early change.
2. "It's a penetrate" And will clean up any thing. Care must be taken using for the first time, If the fuel tank is'nt clean, the Bio-Diesel will start the cleaning, and deposit whatevers, into the fuel filter, and plug it if there is enough debree, requiring a filter change.
It will continue cleaning and plug filters till everthing is clean.
3. There are two metals it eats up! If these metals were used in the fuel system, they will start to corrode. M B States that using B-5 is ok in NVC3 Sprinter, thats a 5% mix.
Off memory; the metals are... Brass, and Zinc.
4.Bio-Diesel has less BTU than #2 diesel = reduced Mileage by a % . Cant remember but ill guess ! ...8% ?


aka; apparition Chuck here!

Altered Sprinter
02-29-2012, 12:16 AM
That's the problem with manufactures! Inconstancy of biomass stock formula's hence 5% or at worst will tolerate 10%
Bio fuels lack Cn in most part so fuels play up more on lower temps from a cold crank start. the rest is an open thread that goes on and on , yet never resolved as a genuine consensus.
Because of diversionary tactics of fraction's :smilewink: sort of like positioning politicians 'A"
Richard

jdcaples
02-29-2012, 12:18 AM
Sulfur is not a fuel lubricant. The refining process that removes sulfur reduces product lubricity; subtle, but important difference.

-Jon

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low-sulfur_diesel


Sulfur is not a lubricant in of itself, but it can combine with the nickel content in many metal alloys to form a low melting point eutectic alloy that can increase lubricity. The process used to reduce the sulfur also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties. Lubricity is a measure of the fuel's ability to lubricate and protect the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system from wear. The processing required to reduce sulfur to 15 ppm also removes naturally-occurring lubricity agents in diesel fuel. To manage this change ASTM International (formerly the American Society for Testing and Materials) adopted the lubricity specification defined in ASTM D975[12] for all diesel fuels and this standard went into effect January 1, 2005.[13] The D975 standard defines two USLD standards, Grade No. 2-D S15 (regular ULSD) and Grade No. 1-D S15 (a higher volatility fuel with a lower gelling temperature than regular ULSD).

NelsonSprinter
02-29-2012, 01:25 AM
Good: Reduces emissions of Carbon Dioxide, Nitrous oxides, Carbon Monoxide
Bad: It initially increases emissions in the first tankful as your engine is cleaned out, after that it is much less. It increases sulphur in the fuel, increasing the sulphuric acid acting inside your engine and sulphur emissions increase, more than ULSD allows.

mackconsult
02-29-2012, 01:56 AM
I beg to differ. Actually I went through emissions recently in my sprinter. It failed on WVO, then it failed on petro diesel. I had to drive it around at 3500 rpm for 20 minutes to clean out the catalytic converter and then it passed with flying colors.

My point being that I have the failed emission records and the WVO emissions were about the same as the petro diesel (keep in mind washington uses the opacity/snap test which is piece of sh*t).

Biodiesel is only different from WVO in that the esther chains are broken down so that viscosity goes down. Chemically WVO and biodiesel are actually very similar, and they combust in about the same way.

The benefit of a biofuel is two fold, only if you can get past the cons.

Pros: Has good lubricity on components. Is considered a carbon neutral fuel (I.E. it didn't take millions of years for it to happen).

Cons: Biofuels eat up seals/hoses that are not viton or epdm. Will gell at cold temperatures. Can polymerize under heat (this is why it is a no-no to use biodiesel in a WVO rig).

Okay ..... I will get off my podium now :thumbup:

Good: Reduces emissions of Carbon Dioxide, Nitrous oxides, Carbon Monoxide
Bad: It initially increases emissions in the first tankful as your engine is cleaned out, after that it is much less. It increases sulphur in the fuel, increasing the sulphuric acid acting inside your engine and sulphur emissions increase, more than ULSD allows.

NelsonSprinter
02-29-2012, 04:55 AM
My Bio-diesel supplier says he takes about a pound of glycerin and parrafin out of WVO for every 5 gallons treated and converted to BioDiesel, so I beg to differ on 'WVO are basically the same'
5-10% of WVO never makes it into Biodiesel but gets removed ( the worst 5% that is) very butter-like.
WVO emissions and Biodiesel emissions are hardly comparable.

jmoller99
02-29-2012, 02:25 PM
I have a friend who runs his 5.9 Liter Cummins on Bio-Diesel in the summer (mixing it with regular Petro Diesel when on the road). He makes the Bio-Diesel in his garage and ends up with a lot of glycerin and parrafin to dispose of as a result. Other than clogging his fuel filters when he first started using Bio-Diesel (ie. crud in the fuel tank getting flushed out), he has had no problems since he started doing this in 2005. His cost is slightly over $1 a gallon for home made Bio-Diesel. I am tempted to try it, but worry about a clogged fuel filter on the road (my 2002 is a pain to get fuel flowing again after a filter change, newer Sprinters with fuel pumps in the the fuel tank may have less of an issue).

mackconsult
02-29-2012, 03:00 PM
Glycerin is the byproduct when the triglyceride breaks down and combine with methanol. I asked the emission people about this and they said that here in Washington biodiesel is the same as petro-diesel when it comes to emissions, just like the WVO is. I studied this in depth for the last three years when going down this path. They are very comparable. Your percentages are very off, remember that methanol and lye are added to WVO to create the biodiesel and are mostly consumed.

The Con's for both WVO and biodiesel are very similar, they are very similar fluids it is only the triglycerides that are broken down. When in comes to combustion WVO and biodiesel are very similar, you just need the heat with WVO to ensure that you can drop the viscosity in order for fuel injection to occur properly.

My Bio-diesel supplier says he takes about a pound of glycerin and parrafin out of WVO for every 5 gallons treated and converted to BioDiesel, so I beg to differ on 'WVO are basically the same'
5-10% of WVO never makes it into Biodiesel but gets removed ( the worst 5% that is) very butter-like.
WVO emissions and Biodiesel emissions are hardly comparable.

Peter_C
02-29-2012, 06:06 PM
I am tempted to try it, but worry about a clogged fuel filter on the road (my 2002 is a pain to get fuel flowing again after a filter change, newer Sprinters with fuel pumps in the the fuel tank may have less of an issue).
Have you tried filling the new fuel filter with fuel before reinstalling it? Then when you do start it hold the RPM's up until it clears the air out.

OrioN
02-29-2012, 06:42 PM
$1 per gallon? Does this amount include all the labour involved, from harvesting to production to solving all the issues?

mackconsult
02-29-2012, 07:18 PM
No that does not include time to source, setup filtering, or trouble shooting.

After getting it all figured out, getting your processing all established then its about right but only if you are kicking down for 55 gallon barrels of methanol, and 50 lb bags of lye (that is about $500). Both are very dangerous by the way which is why I did not go down the biodiesel path .... And then you have to get a source for WVO, which I am currently selling at $2/gallon ......

My neighbor sells it to me at $1/gallon, he collects his own oil and buys 55 gallon drums of methanol, 50 lb bags of lye, and he is using a methanol recovery system. So he says he is doing if for just under $1/gallon.

I charge myself $.20/gallon for using WVO.$1 per gallon? Does this amount include all the labour involved, from harvesting to production to solving all the issues?

A.Hayes
02-29-2012, 10:23 PM
The ability to run biodiesel is one of the reasons I bought my '02 T1N (got it used in '07 with 95K mi). I was interested in it for many of the pros already listed in this thread... because it can be made domestically from a waste product, and I wanted to see at least some of my fuel dollars go towards the potential development of something besides more petroleum, even if it's not a magic bullet. Yada yada...

I'm hardly a biodiesel expert, but I did a bit of research when I started using it and basically got comfortable enough to give it a go. I've put on over 40,000 mi with various blends up to B99, but after reading about some of the cons of bio, I generally run B20 nowadays. I also talked to John B. @ Upscale during Sprinterfest last year, and if memory serves he said he runs a 10-20% blend (he can correct me if I'm wrong). I don't brew it at home- as far as I know Sequential Biodiesel in Salem, OR supplies most of the commercially produced bio in the Portland area. They have a large production facility and make the ASTM (I forget the # at the moment) certified fuel, so I feel pretty comfortable with the fuel quality.

I have had a few fuel system related issues in that time, but from what I've read none that fall outside the normal OM 612 stuff... The most expensive one was a leaky injection pump (this was before I found out about the Dr. A rebuilds)- I don't know if the seals used in this pump are bio friendly or not, but it seems to be a common enough failure with petro diesel anyway. Other than that, I had some typical no start stuff that ended up being in part a failed WIF drain plug, but again all the crap they decided to connect to the 612 fuel filter seems to be problematic, esp. with the 'sucker' fuel pump set up. I did a fuel filter change early on when I went to bio as a preventative, but have otherwise been back on regular intervals there without issues. I also caught a pre-black death leaky injector seal in the fall that was able to be re-sealed using the same injector.
So that's been it as far as any fuel system specific issues that I've had- again, all stuff that I've read about here on the forum that seems common enough with regular diesel.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful for anyone considering giving biodiesel a try.

CJPJ
03-01-2012, 04:52 PM
Taken ;from Farm Energy ;web site.

Don't store or transport in copper, brass, broniz, lead, or zink, because these metals will hasten degradation, instead choose containers made from aluminun, steel, florinated polyethylene, fluorinated teflon or fiberglass.

Contact with Water;

Bio-Diesel can degrade due to contact with water. Moisture can comtainonate the fuel, up to 1500 ppm. can dissolve in Bio-Diesel, after this limit is reached, free water causes microbes to grow (Algae) in the Bio-Diesel, also caused Acids to form. It vertually impossible to keep water out of Bio-Diesel. Best way is to use fuel within a fue months.

MillionMileSprinter
03-01-2012, 05:36 PM
I have had a few fuel system related issues in that time, but from what I've read none that fall outside the normal OM 612 stuff... The most expensive one was a leaky injection pump (this was before I found out about the Dr. A rebuilds)- I don't know if the seals used in this pump are bio friendly or not, but it seems to be a common enough failure with petro diesel anyway.

I bought my '02 with 85K miles on it for super cheap because the original owner brewed his own bio-diesel and somehow ruined his high pressure pump. Him trying to replace the pump himself, without help, lead to him selling it cheap to another person who took it to three mechanics who could not fix it and then he just wanted to get rid of it. Along I came and scooped up a good deal. I have been under the impression that the bio diesel ruined his high pressure pump.
*EDIT* after re-reading my post, I don't want to sound like I am anti-biodiesel. I'm just telling you my experiences and assumptions. None of which are based on actual facts, just conjecture. I tried contacting the original owner and asking about his issues with the van, but he never returned my calls or emails. He could have run a "bad" batch of bio-diesel through the system and that's what caused the fuel pump to die. Or maybe it was just one of those weird things.:idunno:

gregowski
03-02-2012, 05:42 AM
Still seems like the T1N Sprinters are much more successful running biodiesel of any blend percentage than the NCV3 Sprinter owners. I had some comments from Guayaki and EcoShuttle about running their NCV3 Sprinters on biodiesel for a recent Sprinter RV blog post:

http://www.sprinter-rv.com/2012/02/17/biodiesel-sprinter-fleets/

A.Hayes
03-02-2012, 06:44 PM
I'm just telling you my experiences and assumptions. None of which are based on actual facts, just conjecture. I tried contacting the original owner and asking about his issues with the van, but he never returned my calls or emails. He could have run a "bad" batch of bio-diesel through the system and that's what caused the fuel pump to die. Or maybe it was just one of those weird things.:idunno:

Joel, I can't say for sure either if bio played any role in my injection pump failure, but after reading Greg's link I wonder if the quality of the home brew used in your van wasn't at fault. My understanding was that natural rubber seals/fuel lines had to be replaced when using bio, but that the sythetics that have been standard since about the mid '80s or so are generally OK. But tip #1 about fuel lines in Greg's link seems to suggest otherwise. Or perhaps there are some metal seals that in the pump that would react negatively to the solvent qualites of bio.

Anyway, I was just under the impression that the injection pump was a relatively normal failure based on the fact that the good Doktor offers rebuilds (if they rarely failed, he might not advertise this??) and I believe has mentioned cold weather related seal failures.
I can't recall at the moment how long my replacement pump has been in... probably 20K or so if I had to guess. If it goes again, I might start to wonder.

Here's another link that may be of interest (from the Sprinter Store aka Upscale):
http://sprinterstore.com/biodiesel_info2.htm

Samoman
03-18-2012, 03:17 PM
I have restaurants that produce waste cooking oil and want to produce bio diesel using the Sprinboard biodiesel system. Does anyone use 100% Biodiesel in a new Sprinter? I know MBZ says a max Bio of 5% is acceptable, but with all the waste oil I have it would be nice to have virtually free fuel.

A.Hayes
03-18-2012, 11:38 PM
I don't personally know anyone, but there are folks doing it. Follow the link in post #15 above, and check out point #4- that might be a start, with plenty more details to chase out. Let us know where you end up!

wunderbar
04-06-2012, 06:31 PM
beware of mbdealers using biodiesel!dont tell them!!
other than a sprinter rv i own a 2005 e320 diesel.a couple of years ago while i was out of the country my son drove my car and it shut down on the highway due to the failiar of the servo break assist which is an electric pump on these models-no longer-with a permanent recall.i have a biodiesel emblem on the trunk and the shop used this as an excuse to blame biodiesel for the breakdown and pad the bill by some 3500$ for changing the fuelrail and some injectors.
unfortunatly this was not the last time i was ripped by a dealer.at a recent service in charleston sc i asked for an oil and fuelfilter change and was charged for 14 quarts of oil and a fuelsystem diagnostic on top of the filter and labour.this was for my 2010 3500 sprinter rv.

seaglf
07-09-2012, 08:42 PM
I don't have a sprinter, but I am very interested in the OM612 engine, as I am considering trying to import a G270 here to the US, and Also I am considering the OM612 for diesel conversions as well. Reason being as far as I have read the OM612 is the most efficient engine compared to OM606, 642, 617,602. and they are more available.
The only question I have is. Can the OM612 run on WVO, or can it be modified to do so. And can it run on straight biodiesel.
If not the OM 606 might be a better choice, and a late model G300 might be a better choice for import, although I like the interior upgrade as well as having ESP and 4 ETS on the 2001 and up models.
Also installing something like this in a looped return system would take care of any crud down to 1/2 micron. http://www.dieselcraft.com/WVOFAQ.php
and this in the main fuel line http://www.pureflowairdog.com/