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OrioN
09-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Hello peeps...

Just ordered a 08 - 170" EXT High Cargo and will be doing my own conversion into a Graphic & Web Design studio and home so I can go 'full time'.

That said... sadly all dealer salepersons and managers I've encountered have not been able to explain in any detail about the specifications of the 180Amp / 220Amp alternators. I was wondering why an upgrade from 180A to 220A (only 40A) cost $975 CAD or $400 USD. What am I missing here?

Also, a buddy of mine says most stock automobile alternators cannot effectively charge a house bank of batteries compared to an AC Charger (something about regulators, thermal sensors, etc.). Plus he say's eventually stock alternators 'damage' house batteries. Is there something special about Mercedes systems?

Can anyone shed some light....:idunno:

Hal

sikwan
09-29-2007, 09:56 PM
Welcome Hal! :clapping:

Unless you're welding, I think the 180A is sufficient. This was the same for the T1N's. The cost difference was enormous.

As for the differences, besides the 40A, I'm guessing that there's a minimum step up in construction of the alternator once it hits or exceeds the 200A level.

If you do get it, you need to get the idle control or at least something that will run the motor at 2000rpms. I doubt many alternators are designed to put out that much current at idle.

Don't know what's so special about MB's alternators or any other alternators that can damage batteries. Might have something to do with overcharging. :idunno:

gerrym51
09-29-2007, 10:55 PM
Welcome Hal! :clapping:

Unless you're welding, I think the 180A is sufficient. This was the same for the T1N's. The cost difference was enormous.

As for the differences, besides the 40A, I'm guessing that there's a minimum step up in construction of the alternator once it hits or exceeds the 200A level.

If you do get it, you need to get the idle control or at least something that will run the motor at 2000rpms. I doubt many alternators are designed to put out that much current at idle.

Don't know what's so special about MB's alternators or any other alternators that can damage batteries. Might have something to do with overcharging. :idunno:

the 220 amp alternator is really there for uses hungry
for electricity. ambulances etc.

the problem with alternator charging depends
more on the kind of battery. older style lead acid liquid
can be fried.
. if you use agm battereries they are practically
impossible to destroy. also alternators can only do the bulk charge on a battery. you need shore power and a charger
to get the adsorption charge. you should google
charging batter banks. its not as simple as it seems


the other point is idling. whan an engine is at normal idle
the alternator is only charging at 30-40 % of rated
ability. you have to be going over 40 miles an hour
or get the high idle function to get full
capacity.



gerry:smilewink:

jdcaples
10-02-2007, 04:03 PM
the other point is idling. whan an engine is at normal idle
the alternator is only charging at 30-40 % of rated
ability. you have to be going over 40 miles an hour
or get the high idle function to get full
capacity.



gerry:smilewink:

If I recall correctly, the equipment book indicates that the high-idle option and the 220 amp option is not a sanctioned combination.

-Jon

gerrym51
10-02-2007, 04:06 PM
If I recall correctly, the equipment book indicates that the high-idle option and the 220 amp option is not a sanctioned combination.

-Jon

i wonder why?


:thinking:

jdcaples
10-03-2007, 12:13 AM
i wonder why?


:thinking:

me too.

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 12:28 AM
Basically its for aux batts... and set up. power hungry for many variable options out side of the standard propose of a goods carrying van which the Sprinter was originally built for
Example of energy needs.
Richard
4061

4062

OrioN
10-03-2007, 04:11 AM
Hello...

Correction:
The Sprinter "Special Equipment Book" say's RPM Governors (high idle options?) are "Not sutuible for operating 220-volt generators"....nothing about 220A alternators...

OrioN
10-03-2007, 04:37 AM
So here's the next question....

I want to install an alternator regulator. Sole purpose is to aid in charging, protecting and prolonging the life span of the house battery bank. Models I'm considering are 1) Smart Alternator Regulator - V3 by Ample Power, or 2) #84-2006-01 by Xantrex.
Both companies asked if the Alternator is a P-Type or has a Field Input.

And again <sigh> I made the mistake and asked the dealer mechanic for information and he couldn't give me any coherant answer except "we just replace them when they're broken". :rant:

Anyone know what type of alternator the 180A is? And also, any input towards helping me decide on a regulator would be appreciated.

Hal

PS....there is a bonus in having to wait 6 months to receive my 2008...

jdcaples
10-03-2007, 05:29 AM
Hello...

Correction:
The Sprinter "Special Equipment Book" say's RPM Governors (high idle options?) are "Not sutuible for operating 220-volt generators"....nothing about 220A alternators...

I used to have an email from DCX that basically says, "That's a translation - German to English - error."

I trusted the source at the time. Today, I'm not so sure. I do know you can't order a "generator."

-Jon

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 06:22 AM
I used to have an email from DCX that basically says, "That's a translation - German to English - error."

I trusted the source at the time. Today, I'm not so sure. I do know you can't order a "generator."

-Jon
Jon just to clarify this Generator what does this mean in your terms of English, please.
My post above did not include generators all units run via aux with batt back up and invertors there are a total of four batteries the last two use 24 volts converted down to 6 volt then back into 12 volts I never asked how that worked.
Generators can run off the PTO system these are used for other reasons. such as for electric motors
Just a little lost on this one, Thanks.
Richard

Zach Woods
10-03-2007, 11:34 AM
Jon just to clarify this Generator what does this mean in your terms of English, please.

Just a little lost on this one, Thanks.
Richard

Howdy Richard -

I think Jon is jokingly referring to electrical generators like the popular Honda units (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gen.asp) and not the generators commonly found in automobiles before alternators replaced them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_generator#Vehicle-mounted_generators). It is pretty clear that the "220 volt generator" line is, in fact, a German to English translation error.

Zach

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 11:51 AM
Howdy Richard -

I think Jon is jokingly referring to electrical generators like the popular Honda units (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gen.asp) and not the generators commonly found in automobiles before alternators replaced them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_generator#Vehicle-mounted_generators). It is pretty clear that the "220 volt generator" line is, in fact, a German to English translation error.

Zach
Thank you Zach... That explains my confusion as to US German and English errors:smilewink: Genny's Yes just replaced a bushing on a 1965 Ford :shhh:which had the alternators as optional
Richard

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 01:20 PM
One different countries different batteries! so this is for the client to work out what is best for his situation and needs.
4069
Note This is information from Europe check comparability for US specs.
4070
4071
4072
There are wiring set ups for LHD exports these may have variations in differences again , because there are four alternative programs for the Sam relay and fuse system you need to consult which system you may require.
4073
Continued

jdcaples
10-03-2007, 01:46 PM
Howdy Richard -
It is pretty clear that the "220 volt generator" line is, in fact, a German to English translation error.
Zach

Thanks Zach!

That having been sorted, the question remains: if you need high/adjustable idle (for whatever reason), a 220 alternator isn't a suitable choice.

Does anyone know why?

-Jon

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 01:49 PM
Voltage taps
4074
Notation check the 220 v Alt is actually correct for the V6 There have been mistakes on the European site but they are few and far between this Alt is for a 4 cylinder engine, The Dodge Web site specs for the engine state V6 but the specs are for a 4- in-line engine this may be a problem at your end the same as those rascal axle ratios meant for a 4 cylinder engine? crazy.
There is a reference to High idle but Have to check this at the work PC to conform if it is needed or not I think it is required?? Don't quote me on this though please, I'm not God:rolleyes:
There also may be an alternative to this via a fifth Link within the optional PMS module, IF so you need a very good Tech to sort it out I also need to check as to the extra load limits that may be required. etc.
Alternative electrical power supply for 110, 220,240 v can be done via the PTO this is an engeniring directive that needs to be arranged and consulted by MB body directive on line for a virtual live hook up Europe only expensive and I am sure this can not be done Stateside as to manual transmissions being best suited for the applicaton, To be honest I never thought of an Auto combination again I would need to check it out.
The best and most sensible application would to be install solar energy power supply to the bank of batteries that power up 10,000 watt convetors at least you can aviod the Box of tricks that has many possiable issues if done wrong.
This is an old link to High idle but there would be little variations between the old sprinter and the new models again This takes time at work to digest for me to bring into the forum.
Richard
4075

Altered Sprinter
10-03-2007, 01:51 PM
Thanks Zach!

That having been sorted, the question remains: if you need high/adjustable idle (for whatever reason), a 220 alternator isn't a suitable choice.

Does anyone know why?

-Jon Working on this now JON but I'm not an electrical expert so it's taking time to go through my manuals.. I think The main one is on my work computer
Richard

Expert Marine
10-05-2007, 08:35 AM
Interesting Topic! I deal with similar issues on yachts almost daily. I do ALOT of reconfiguring DC electrical systems, rewiring, upgrading house banks, and evaluations of electrical systems.

The pictures show before the work was started, New electrical panel, and the new 105a alternator showing the external regulator on the left side of the alternators picture.

Please answer the following.

Why do you think you need the 220 amp alternator?
How many batteries are you going to add?
What size inverter?
What are you going to power?


This is my take on batteries. Alternators are touched near the end.

This is for true deep cycle batteries, like golf cart batteries.

Wet cell batteries
Trojanís are the best in their class. T105= 225AH
Highest capacity ratingís, but have 50% usable energy (112 AH). If you use them below that you are shortening the life of the battery. Charging voltage can safely be up to 14.6 volts. You have to maintain them by topping them off with distilled water periodically. They off gas (vent out explosive gases) during charging & discharging making them not safe to use in compartments that have inverters & other electronics that are not ignition protected, and contribute to corrosion of terminals. If you lay them on their side they will leak out acid (Itís happened in the back of my expedition). General rule on boats- 3 years of use, and replace.

AGM batteries.

West marineís SeaVolt line, and Lifeline batteries gets my vote! Great construction, performance, and warranty (12 mo replacement). Golf cart 6v battery is 187 AH.
Slightly lower capacity then wet cell batteries, but have about 65% usable energy (121 AH)
Charging voltage can safely be up to 14.6 volts. Making them an easy drop in replacement on most boats (Inboards with alternators & Outboards).
NO maintenance!
Sealed Design. No venting out explosive gasses during charging & discharging!
SAFE to use in compartments that have inverters & other electronics that are not ignition protected! If you lay them on their side they will NOT leak out acid.
Electrolyte will not stratify, no equalization charging required.
Accepts higher amperage for faster recharging!
Increases durability and deep cycle ability for heavy demand applications.
Less than 2% per month stand loss means little deterioration during transport and storage
Tank formation ensures voltage matching between cells.
Transports easily and safely by air. No special containers needed
Constant voltage formation General rule on boats- 5 years of use, and replace.

Gel batteries

West marineís SeaVolt line gets my vote! Great construction, performance, and warranty (12 mo replacement). Golf cart 6v battery is 180 AH.
Slightly lower capacity then AGM batteries, but have 70% usable energy (126 AH).
Over 1000 charge and discharge cycles for lifespan!
Accepts higher amperage for faster recharging!

Charging voltage can safely be up to 14.1 volts MAX!!!

Do NOT just drop in and run!
Charging system tuning is a must!

Do NOT just drop in and run!
Charging system tuning is a must!

There are two main types of Alternators.
Internally regulated alternators have to be modified by an alternator shop to accept an adjustable external regulator.
Externally regulated alternators are easier to convert to adjustable regulation.
Standard regulators charge fine for most applications.
Smart 3 stage regulators can be used for optimum charging, and are the best choice.

Look into BALMAR for digital regulators. ARS-5-H & MC-612-H are nice units.

Usually I modify the alternator with adjustable voltage regulators, so I can dial in the charging voltage.
(One of my clients had a repower done. The mechanic didnít pay attention to the batteries, and cooked 7 of them due to over charging from the alternators)
NO maintenance!
No venting out explosive gasses during charging & discharging!
SAFE to use in compartments that have inverters & other electronics that are not ignition protected! If you lay them on their side they will NOT leak out acid.
Electrolyte will not stratify, no equalization charging required.
Increases durability and deep cycle ability for heavy demand applications.
Less than 2% per month stand loss means little deterioration during transport and storage
Tank formation ensures voltage matching between cells.
Transports easily and safely by air. No special containers needed
Constant voltage formation
General rule on boats- 5 years of use, and replace.

You get what you pay for. There are a lot of other batteries made in China that donít compare in my opinion. I donít care for the batteries from Cabelas, and they have the puniest ľĒ bolts for mounting studs. Donít permanently parallel batteries that are a different age, size, or composition.
When possible try to use the same composition batteries in your boat, because they will see each other when the combiner kicks in for charging while under way. If you want to use wet cells for cranking, and AGMís for the house to save some money its not a dangerous situation.

Altered Sprinter
10-05-2007, 10:29 AM
Thank you Surge
Helps to unravel the thoughts, as to Which! may be best?:thumbup: Richard

sikwan
10-05-2007, 03:54 PM
Great post Surg! :clapping:

I like these switches :drool:...
http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4107&stc=1&d=1191575365
...what's the difference between the gray and red switches?

I was thinking of adding a bypass switch just for emergencies. Right now there's a relay that turns on after the engine has started that directs charging voltage to the aux battery below the passenger seat. I don't know if the relay is hefty enough to use to start the engine using the aux battery in case the main battery goes dead. I would also have to energize the 12V relay, so a switch would probably be a better option.

Expert Marine
10-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Jon just to clarify this Generator what does this mean in your terms of English, please.
My post above did not include generators all units run via aux with batt back up and invertors there are a total of four batteries the last two use 24 volts converted down to 6 volt then back into 12 volts I never asked how that worked.
Generators can run off the PTO system these are used for other reasons. such as for electric motors
Just a little lost on this one, Thanks.
Richard


Please post pictures of your batteries & connections because this doesnít make any sense.

Expert Marine
10-05-2007, 04:25 PM
Great post Surg! :clapping:

I like these switches :drool:...
http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4107&stc=1&d=1191575365
...what's the difference between the gray and red switches?

I was thinking of adding a bypass switch just for emergencies. Right now there's a relay that turns on after the engine has started that directs charging voltage to the aux battery below the passenger seat. I don't know if the relay is hefty enough to use to start the engine using the aux battery in case the main battery goes dead. I would also have to energize the 12V relay, so a switch would probably be a better option.

Thanks!

How many AMP relay is it? Since AGM batteries will accept HIGH inrush current I wouldn’t trust anything under 200A with the standard alternator.

Each red switch control a pair of 6v batteries run in series to end up with 12V. This allows you to select or eliminate any of the 3 sets of batteries.

Inrush Rating: 0.25 sec (10 repeats)* 1750 Amperes DC
Weight Lb (Kg) 1.15 (0.52)
Cranking Rating: 9.75 sec (10 repeats)* 900 Amperes DC
Intermittent Rating: 5 min (UL 1107) 600 Amperes DC
Continuous Rating: (UL 1107) 350 Amperes DC
Maximum Voltage Rating 48 Volts

The black switch is the emergency combine which parallels the engine circuit to the house for emergency starting power.
Inrush Rating: 0.25 sec (10 repeats)* 2000 Amperes DC
Weight Lb (Kg) 1.30 (0.59)
Cranking Rating: 9.75 sec (10 repeats)* 1200 Amperes DC
Intermittent Rating: 5 min (UL 1107) 900 Amperes DC
Continuous Rating: (UL 1107) 600 Amperes DC
Cable Quantity to Meet Ratings Two Cables


I'v tried many different kinds of electrical "Combiners" or "ACRs" Auto Charging Relays. I prefer this one for the sprinter application. http://bluesea.com/category/2/products/products/9112
http://bluesea.com/files/images/products/thumbs182/9112_182x182.jpg
Allong with the 8270
http://bluesea.com/files/images/products/thumbs182/8270_182x260.jpg

These items monitor the voltage on the engine side. As the alternator tops off the engine battery it will see the increase in voltage and parallel the engine circuit with the house bank allowing the alternator to charge both batteries at once.
When you shut down the engine and voltage starts to drop it will open the circuit isolating them from each other. The switch panel lets you manually combine for emergency starting power.

It would be nice to re rout the power for the interior lighting, and stereo to the aux battery allowing you to leave the cranking battery UN touched.

Also- Notice the Class T fuse holder on the left side. These are what is recommended by inverter manufacturers for protecting inverters. This one pictured has a 400 Amp fuse that powers a 3000 Watt sinewave inverter charger.

Altered Sprinter
10-05-2007, 04:41 PM
Please post pictures of your batteries & connections because this doesnít make any sense.
Surg, sorry the post was a little confusing as it refereed to another thread generators ?
The photo I showed was an example of how and what battery systems could be used for loading , that one was a special opps unit which had the standard battery linked to the aux battery but also ran two 24 volt batteries running in-line but converted back into six volts then into 12 which I could not understand either? and I may have misunderstood what was said with 6 volt??? the 10.000 watt converter's were to run the equipment as to being a four point plug in system for 240 volts mains there were three of, the gear shown was not 12 volt, purely for domestic current only the back half of the van also ran on board generators , the PTO ref is for an alternative power source if required and or for hydraulic systems used on the van , but not on the one shown in the photo.
sorry for the confusion.
Richard

The Guru
10-06-2007, 06:25 AM
OK,

The 180Amp battery is more that enough to handle your requirements, earlier in the post someone correctly meantioned that it doesnt matter how big the alternator if the engine is tickiing over then the alternator is not working to full capacity anyway.

The post entered by Altered regarding the fitment of engine working speed is only applicable to the T1N Sprinter. (Just a matter of inputting the CR Control unit and turning on variant coding)

With the NCV3 Sprinter the enabling of working speed control can only be done if the PSM control unit is fitted to the vehicle.

You will need to input the PSM control unit with either a negative or positive input and then carry out a coding of the CD4 control unit and set the coding in the PSM (ie set the desired speed)

This can only be done by a Sprinter dealer or someone with the relevent training and access to a DRB/Star.

I would suggest that the engine speed is set to 1300 rpm as so you get the maximum output from the alternator.

Hope this isnt to confusing?

sikwan
10-06-2007, 06:51 AM
Thanks for the info Guru. :thumbup:

Expert Marine
11-06-2007, 02:57 AM
This appears to show that only the 150A alternator utilizes Lin buss.
I have the 180A and it has a single wire plug on the side.
I thought that might drive the tach.

Please clarify.


One different countries different batteries! so this is for the client to work out what is best for his situation and needs.
4069
Note This is information from Europe check comparability for US specs.
4070
4071
4072
There are wiring set ups for LHD exports these may have variations in differences again , because there are four alternative programs for the Sam relay and fuse system you need to consult which system you may require.
4073
Continued

Altered Sprinter
11-06-2007, 07:39 AM
This appears to show that only the 150A alternator utilizes Lin buss.
I have the 180A and it has a single wire plug on the side.
I thought that might drive the tach.

Please clarify. Hi Surg
180 is standard on the V6 optional 220
Note as stated Euro please check for US specs. There is no facility for D+ conn Body builder has to work with D AG on this.
I'm not sure what the reference is to Tach! thinking of three
stand alone tach on the dash, taco-graph or a separate one that is used for alternative purposes? sorry you lost me.
I don't have the full electrical wiring program for US sprinters there are emittance's on the US version as not being compatible to Euro specs. there is more to it than that.
You have auto We have manual, and auto, different functions etc with PT0's
I have three full wiring programs for the PTO system but these are for another purpose, custom use .
You have the option of the PSM, but you need to have any work done via the tech , that is the problem , US does not have direct on-line access to Germany through a dealership
So I'm stuck at this point as to information .
Guru may be able to assist you for further information but he will need specifics.
Hopefully Guru will pick up on the thread and be able to help you.
Cheers Richard.
PS Question: 150 are you running gas? Diesel is 180 or 220 Gas is 250?

Expert Marine
11-07-2007, 05:37 AM
Thanks.
I have the 180A with the 3 liter diesel.
I was thinking of altering the regulator to charge at 14.1v so I can run Gel batteries.

If it runs the Lin Buss, I wont consider altering the regulator.

Altered Sprinter
11-07-2007, 08:43 AM
Hi Surg
There is a hot wire fuse link for under the trans for adding to what ever?
I was thinking today jdcaples (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/member.php?find=lastposter&t=2075)has the latest software for your van and wiring is included for the N/A model, may be it would pay to PM him, {Jon and ask} if he could help you.
Best I can do .
Richard

OrioN
11-07-2007, 03:28 PM
Hey Surge, Hal again...nice chattin' with ya last month...

Are you refering to 'adding/replacing' another charge regulator for the gels, or modifying the existing? I was originally inquiring on how to add one of the few out there that do quite a nice job on house banks to the alternator.

Expert Marine
11-09-2007, 11:31 PM
I would want to eliminate it, and run an externally adjustible unit.
This would let me dial in the voltage to what I want.
Nothing too fancy just an $180 single stage regulator, but if the alternator runs with LIN bus I'de just drop in AGM batteries and be done with it.

BMA
11-18-2007, 03:59 PM
Go with the 180Amp unit.

Then if that isn't enough, add a second alternator, or use a generator or plug in to the grid.

Think seriously about putting solar on the roof. You would be surprised how much a pair of 130W solar panels will provide in power. If you do go solar, wire the panels in series with a controller than can take the input in series, then charge your 12VDC battery bank.

I'd be starting a Sprinter to RV conversion this winter but the soybean crop was damaged by flooding then hail. I started to look for something else to do, and noticed my old '94 Toyota 4x4 pickup I'd parked a couple of years ago due to it's problems. Anyways I'm in the process of turning it into a farm fencing work truck/micro RV. After some engine and tranny work it is getting a large battery bank, AC inverter, and 230A 24VDC alternator with clutch (from a wrecked city bus). I'm putting the 24VDC alternator in place of the air-conditioning compressor as that is dead. This will give me totally separate starting and house battery systems. I'm charging a 24VDC battery bank from the 24VDC alternator. My inverter is designed for 24VDC input and is a few percent more efficient than a 12VDC one from the same company. For air-conditioning I'll eventually be getting a 24VDC powered compressor and plumbing it in place of the engine powered one. When I put the custom built topper on the back I'll add 2 solar panels and solar charge controller to the system. I figure that the alternator will be used for bulk charging only while driving. In a pinch it can provide charging while idling. I'm planning on having a charging enable switch on the dash to control the clutch on the alternator otherwise that thing will really bog down my poor little engine. I'll figure out some sort of automatic circuit latter. For emergency starting of the engine I'm running a set of cables and putting three posts into the engine compartment. This will allow me to use either 12VDC half of the 24VDC battery bank to jump start the truck.

-- Bryan

sikwan
11-18-2007, 07:59 PM
I'd be starting a Sprinter to RV conversion this winter

Sounds interesting Bryan. Keep us posted! :thumbup: