3500 GVWR vs Front + Rear GAWR

glas1700

Member
I know that the rated GVWR (10,200 lbs) isn't the sum of the front (3860 lbs) and rear (7060 lbs) GAWR's, unlike Ford/Chevy vehicles that just add the two to obtain the GVWR (10,920 lbs?). What I don't know and can't find after searching on this forum and other sources is the reason for the reduced GVWR.

Axles, suspension, bearings, brakes, etc. can handle their respective loads and the chassis and transmission are capable of towing up to 5K lbs or more. Is there a weak link somewhere or is MB just being conservative?

Byron
07 Navion / 06 3500
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
I know that the rated GVWR (10,200 lbs) isn't the sum of the front (3860 lbs) and rear (7060 lbs) GAWR's, unlike Ford/Chevy vehicles that just add the two to obtain the GVWR (10,920 lbs?). What I don't know and can't find after searching on this forum and other sources is the reason for the reduced GVWR.

Axles, suspension, bearings, brakes, etc. can handle their respective loads and the chassis and transmission are capable of towing up to 5K lbs or more. Is there a weak link somewhere or is MB just being conservative?

Byron
07 Navion / 06 3500
Simply put MB designed a vehicle ranging from 2.8 Metric tonne through to 7 metric tonne. ....There are a thousand threads that contribute to your question more accurately .as to Why?.
Towing is based on a Sprinters electronic capability... PSM , to configure the ESP BAS , etc with redistributed hitch and ball configuration to carry it's own GVM say 3500Kg to a GVMTW of a total of 7 metric tonne.
Simply put, a requirement placed upon vehicle manufactures, by European safety laws, of compliance to operate a vehicle safely within it's the GVM variants operating boundaries..
Richard
 

sailquik

Well-known member
Hi glas1700,
The GAVWR for a 2006 3500 Dodge Sprinter 158" wb in cargo configuration is/was 9,990 lbs.
My 2010 MB 3500 (5 Tonner) 144" wb in cargo configuration is 9,990 lbs.
Fits right under the USDOT limit of 10,001 lbs.
If you have a Sprinter with a higher GAVWR on the capacity plate, best hope you can register it as an RV
..... otherwise..... you are a commercial vehicle over 10,001 lbs. and all the USDOT regulations can be applied.
Both of my Sprinter 3500's have been registered as RV's and have interior accomodations to comply
with the RV definition.
Roger
 

glas1700

Member
Roger,

If you look at my sig, you'll notice that it's a 06 3500 cutaway hauling an RV body on it with a GVWR of 10,200 lbs. I'm still trying to figure out why the sum of the two axle GAWR's don't equal the GVWR. It may be some European regulation that MB has to comply with, but I've never seen anything to convince me. Richard mentioned European safety laws, maybe that's the reason. I just want to know if I can safely load it a few hundred lbs over GVWR.

Byron
07 Navion / 06 3500

Hi glas1700,
The GAVWR for a 2006 3500 Dodge Sprinter 158" wb in cargo configuration is/was 9,990 lbs.
My 2010 MB 3500 (5 Tonner) 144" wb in cargo configuration is 9,990 lbs.
Fits right under the USDOT limit of 10,001 lbs.
If you have a Sprinter with a higher GAVWR on the capacity plate, best hope you can register it as an RV
..... otherwise..... you are a commercial vehicle over 10,001 lbs. and all the USDOT regulations can be applied.
Both of my Sprinter 3500's have been registered as RV's and have interior accomodations to comply
with the RV definition.
Roger
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
It comes down to how an van is actually ordered, and configured front axle up to 2200Kg rear differential ratio up to 5.00 rear suspension configuration ,how many springs , those parabolic springs look the same but have a specifically number stamped into them on the side of the tapers covered in an overlay of plastic composites of course.
One could go on ..Run a pdf up on your Vin, and all will be reviled as to what your van is set at?
Richard.
DSC00432%20(Large) (Custom) copy.jpg
4.4 GVM 3 springs through to 5 T GVM of which has five springs.
DSC00436%20(Large).jpg

DSC00563%20(Large).JPG
Last pic GVM 6 series sprinter 6Tonne. There is little differences between the Tins and the NCV with weight variations cab over chassis models start at 4.2 4.4 through to 4.9/500 T up and higher on special ordering.
None are the same ..standard is usually rated at 4.9 GVM on dual wheels.cab over chassis units.
Need you're Vin particulars.
Richard
 

glas1700

Member
Leaving out the last six digits the VIN is: WDXPD944465

According to my 2006 Dodge parts manual this means:

3500C 4042 mm 16 in. wheel 10,001-14,000 lbs. Class 3

Still not very specific. Can any further info be gleaned from this number?

Maybe I should subscribe to EPCnet Online if they have more info.

Byron
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Leaving out the last six digits the VIN is: WDXPD944465

According to my 2006 Dodge parts manual this means:

3500C 4042 mm 16 in. wheel 10,001-14,000 lbs. Class 3

Still not very specific. Can any further info be gleaned from this number?

Maybe I should subscribe to EPCnet Online if they have more info.

Byron
Bryon your Vin is a non completed plate for export delivery.
On Wis via vDoc there eight designated pages that pertain to your specif personal configurations.
From your Vin number the model variant is a 4 series sprinter this is the base standard 4 series cab over chassis model variant.
U.S configures by using U.S weights. there is a flaw on your drivers seat plate that shows front axles where the flaw lays, it's of little consequence , however by using Metric configurations specific to the nearest decimal point your unit is just under 4.49 Kilos metric.

As your plate is a non completed unit.. This is why you require a detailed printout,as v Doc shows all of the codes that are the indexed to your unit..Without them:idunno: your guessing it's true capacity.

SAA codes complete: Show your rear suspension for final weights ..and it's a tricky one to work out with out.major assemblies as to your series. Spend a coin to find out or ask Jon he may spend a coin on your behalf. Jon [JD] has previously said. That he can not access the full documentation. ..But it is there, if you look plus an awful lot more.
The Key for your weight variant and model designation into your country,Is X G4 and ZJ7 as an example. on page 4 of vDoc followed by SAA numbering sequencing numbers.

Spend coin.. it's free elsewhere, but it takes time about 20 minutes.
Richard
 
I haven't seen any vehicle, Ford, Chevy, anything, who adds the front and rear axle ratings for the GVWR.

The sum of your front and rear axles max rating is higher than the GVWR set by the manufacturer because chances are you won't have just the right amount on the front axle, so you'd be overloading the rear axle etc.
 

glas1700

Member
I haven't seen any vehicle, Ford, Chevy, anything, who adds the front and rear axle ratings for the GVWR.

The sum of your front and rear axles max rating is higher than the GVWR set by the manufacturer because chances are you won't have just the right amount on the front axle, so you'd be overloading the rear axle etc.
I can't find the info on my old 92 Ford E350 cutaway, but as I recall the sum of the axle weight ratings equaled the GVWR. On a new E250/E350 van, the difference between the sum of the axle ratings and GVWR is 370-485 lbs.

On a T1N 3500 it's 715 lbs and on an NCV3 3500 it's 1,100 lbs. Both of these specs are for the motorhome cutaway chassis. Why install axles that are rated to carry over 12,000 lbs, then derate the GVWR so much? This difference appears to be much more than necessary to compensate for a heavy front or rear load and it's the reason for my original question.

Byron
07 Navion
 

220629

Well-known member
...
I just want to know if I can safely load it a few hundred lbs over GVWR.

Byron
07 Navion / 06 3500
As a practical matter no designer worth his salt would not leave enough slop in the load capacity to allow a few hundred pounds overload. Given your stated 10,200 rating 500 pounds is about 5% over.

Maybe you can back into the information you seek by comparing the parts which are used by MB for the higher load rating? When does the rear end and axle design change? Do they increase the bearing sizes on the front wheels? That sort of thing. Often it is more economical to put the OEM higher rated parts into everything. As an RV that is never required to visit the DOT scales, if the OEM parts are the same for all ratings and your springs aren't bottoming out you'll probably never have an issue. I know this isn't supplying you technical data. Sorry if it isn't helpful. vic
 
Last edited:

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
I can't find the info on my old 92 Ford E350 cutaway, but as I recall the sum of the axle weight ratings equaled the GVWR. On a new E250/E350 van, the difference between the sum of the axle ratings and GVWR is 370-485 lbs.

On a T1N 3500 it's 715 lbs and on an NCV3 3500 it's 1,100 lbs. Both of these specs are for the motorhome cutaway chassis. Why install axles that are rated to carry over 12,000 lbs, then derate the GVWR so much? This difference appears to be much more than necessary to compensate for a heavy front or rear load and it's the reason for my original question.

Byron
07 Navion
From your original question :
Mercedes Sprinter Metric specifications. # series Sprinter 3500 and 3.8 GVM rated.

Sprinter 3.8 GVM single rear wheel units.

3.8 Metric Tonne =6000 Kil0grams...8 377.6 Lbs = 4.1888 Ton

---------------------------------------------------------------

Sprinter 4 series
Duel rear wheel units not including SuSi Single rear wide wheel units.
4.40 Metric Tonne= 4400.00 Kilograms...9700.3 Lbs = 4.8502 Ton
.......................................................................................
Sprinter 4 series up to 4.9 Duel only wheel units.
4.9 Metric Tonne = 4900.00 Kilograms....10 803.00 Lbs =5 4013 Ton
.....................................................................................
5 series dual and Tandem rear singles/N/A US; and dual wheel units NCV 906 series
Can be specked up to 6 metric Tonne
6 .00 Metric Tonne =6000 Kilograms...13 288.00Lbs = 6.6139 Ton
....................................................................................
Vans the longer the van the higher it gets the lesser The loading typical as to Build Body type.
These units can be built to increase the total GVM not including Train weight.
.................................................................................
Cab over chassis units
Hold a higher carrying capacity as to Chassis and higher axle load options with additional Parabolic springs sway bars front and rear including H/D shocks and extra reinforced side chassis rails including dampening.
.........................................................................................
Most RV
RV;'s designated code: [SV] are ordered In Europe Argentina Russia and China and fitted out by coach builders with additional Upgrades for suspension's these are specked to a customers needs, a unit purchased off the lot is not.
All NAFTA Vehicles do not have a final certificate of Compliance as this is done by the coach builders with the secondary plate of compliance..
....................................................
Vin;Wis Data sheets show exactly what your vehicle is specked to.
Richard

 

glas1700

Member
As a practical matter no designer worth his salt would not leave enough slop in the load capacity to allow a few hundred pounds overload. Given your stated 10,200 rating 500 pounds is about 5% over.
vic
I agree and think that at this point I'll live with being 300-400 lbs overweight and not let it concern me. I've read of a few motorhomes with the identical chassis that are 1K lbs overweight without any adverse effects, but that's really pushing the limit.

Byron
07 Navion
 

calbiker

Well-known member
Hey, it's too early to punt.

We might get a better understanding of weights by comparing the T1N with NCV3.

------ --T1N- -NCV3 DELTA %
-GCWR 13700 14530 830lbs 6.06%
-GVWR 10200 11030 830lbs 8.1%
-FRONT - 3859 4410 - 551lbs 14.3%
--REAR - 7056 7720 - 664lbs 9.4%

They increased the rear GAWR capacity by 664 lbs, or 9.4%.

What's the difference between the two chassis to allow 664 more lbs in the rear, or 830 lbs combined weight? Perhaps Daimler became more liberal?

Cal


I agree and think that at this point I'll live with being 300-400 lbs overweight and not let it concern me.
Byron
07 Navion
 

220629

Well-known member
Hey, it's too early to punt.
...
Cal
Interesting.

I agree and think that at this point I'll live with being 300-400 lbs overweight and not let it concern me.
...
Byron
07 Navion
Not that you asked... Keeping any RV system related tanks low or empty can make a big difference for weight (which can also translate to fuel economy). I'm really surprised at the number of people I talk to who don't empty their gray and black water tanks before hitting the road. It's usually a DIY free of charge service at a campground. I know it can be an unpleasant task, but... FWIW. vic
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
Some (all?) of the weight ratings are also tweaked to meet local conditions.
I recall a UK member who had his Sprinter de-rated to bring it under some (8,000 pound?) DOT limit.

The "de-rating" was mainly accomplished by adding steel travel limits (so the front wheels could not go "up" as far, relative to the body) and rubber travel limits to (try and) catch the up-travel before it hit the steel.
The DOT "theory" was that you'd stop overloading the vehicle if the suspension hit the stops.

So there's an example of a vehicle *capable* (steel frame and springs strong enough) of carrying a higher load, but then "de-tuned" to "practically" carry less for "legal" and licensing reasons.

As Richard posts, you can (or at least in the rest of the non-NAFTA world where you can) order your Sprinter with quite a range of extra-load-carrying options in the form of different and/or additional spring leafs (note that some don't include strengthening the frame) and sway bars.
The axle ratings probably reflect the options on *that* vehicle's axles, with the "allowable" percentage of front/rear weight distribution factored in.

The appropriate MB "Body Builder's Guide" has more to say on the subject.

--dick
 

glas1700

Member
Hey, it's too early to punt.

We might get a better understanding of weights by comparing the T1N with NCV3.

------ --T1N- -NCV3 DELTA %
-GCWR 13700 14530 830lbs 6.06%
-GVWR 10200 11030 830lbs 8.1%
-FRONT - 3859 4410 - 551lbs 14.3%
--REAR - 7056 7720 - 664lbs 9.4%

They increased the rear GAWR capacity by 664 lbs, or 9.4%.

What's the difference between the two chassis to allow 664 more lbs in the rear, or 830 lbs combined weight? Perhaps Daimler became more liberal?

Cal
I've looked at these figures many times and wondered what changes were made to increase the GVWR by such a large amount, with an even larger spread between GVWR and both GAWR's added together on the NCV3 compared to the T1N.

Did they increase the frame stiffness? Suspension upgrades had to have been done to increase both of the GAWR's. I don't think we'll ever know the answer unless someone knows a MB chassis design engineer who can give us a clue.

Byron
07 Navion
 

calbiker

Well-known member
One factor is stopping power. The more weight, the more energy needs to be dissipated. Are NCV3 brakes bigger?

Cal
 

glas1700

Member
Not that you asked... Keeping any RV system related tanks low or empty can make a big difference for weight (which can also translate to fuel economy). I'm really surprised at the number of people I talk to who don't empty their gray and black water tanks before hitting the road. It's usually a DIY free of charge service at a campground. I know it can be an unpleasant task, but... FWIW. vic
Unless the campground I stay in doesn't have a dump station, my gray and black tanks are always empty while on the road. I don't even find the process unpleasant since with my third gate valve, I can back flush the black tank with gray water every time I dump. Only takes a few minutes to do the whole thing.

In addition, the fresh water tank is usually kept 1/3 (8 gallons) or less full while traveling. I've also done everything I can to reduce carried weight, but I've made some modifications that have added weight in small increments that adds up to about 400 lbs, including ~160 lbs for HWH leveling jacks.

Byron
07 Navion
 

Nic7320

Solera 24S on a 2011 NCV3 chassis

.....................................................................................
5 series dual and Tandem rear singles/N/A US; and dual wheel units NCV 906 series
Can be specked up to 6 metric Tonne
6 .00 Metric Tonne =6000 Kilograms...13 288.00Lbs = 6.6139 Ton
....................................................................................

.........................................................................................
All NAFTA Vehicles do not have a final certificate of Compliance as this is done by the coach builders.


[/QUOTE]

Is there an upgrade path to convert a MY 2011 3500 based class-C RV with a 11030lb GVWR (designated by coach builder) to 13288lbs?
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi

.....................................................................................
5 series dual and Tandem rear singles/N/A US; and dual wheel units NCV 906 series
Can be specked up to 6 metric Tonne
6 .00 Metric Tonne =6000 Kilograms...13 288.00Lbs = 6.6139 Ton
....................................................................................

.........................................................................................
All NAFTA Vehicles do not have a final certificate of Compliance as this is done by the coach builders.


Is there an upgrade path to convert a MY 2011 3500 based class-C RV with a 11030lb GVWR (designated by coach builder) to 13288lbs?
[/QUOTE]
@Nic7320

A 2011 is an NCV3 and not a T1N so is a very different beast.

You would do better starting a new post to ask your question in NCV3 Talk https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?forums/105/

Keith.
 

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