Ignition switch problem with a 2008 diesel

J

jfreeth

Member
Hi Folks,
Ignition switch problem with a 2008 diesel, luckily occurred in driveway, unluckily whilst packing for multiday camping trip.
Symptoms: Insert key in ignition switch and cannot turn. Instead of a normal electronic sound on key insertion(sort of short buzzing or motor whir) there is just a sequence of several double clicks that sounds like a relay clicking. The sound comes from behind the console, near the key, probably on the steering column. I mention this as it does not come from the several relays above the fuse panel. All the electronics operating normally otherwise. With drivers door open, 'remove key' occurs when normall displayed.
No other recent prior symptoms, use vehicle daily, in midst of RV conversion but have not touched the electronics/electrical circuits yet.
Things tried:
Checked drivers seat fuse panel and console fuse panel, all 43 fuses ok
Removed battery ground cable for minute to reset system.
Tried multiple keys, to check if key fob battery issue.
Rotated steering wheel, full lock in both directions against column lock whilst trying key.
Have not tried reading error codes as I do not have a OBD2 compliant reader.

I tried removing the console panels to gain access to switch and steering wheel column, but was stumped at the last step by the clear plastic instrument panel and surrounding black bezel, which I presume has to be removed to release the last screws or latch holding the larger panel. There are two slots in the black bezel, just above the reset and +/- buttons which I assume are used to release the bezel, but so far no luck. I cannot find a clear diagram or description on this last step and don't want to break anything. I did release the center console cover, lower shrouds, grey left hand shroud, cover near windscreen, left hand speaker cover, and left hand column cover. The latter few not necessary but wasn't sure.

So I have several questions:
1: Is the Service Bulletin "Steering lock locks up" related to my current issue.
2: Not sure what the service warranty covers as I purchased the van new in July 2009(less than 3 years), but have accumulated 60,000 miles so far(30k warranty). The dealership changed hands shortly after I made the purchase, and am concerned about taking it to a local dealer, aside from the problem of getting it there.
3: How do I release the instrument cover and/or whatever is holding the main console panel(the black plastic console on which the key switch is mounted.
4: If the electronic control module on the steering column is faulty can I replace it with new unit. I have been reading this board since purchasing the van and the several horror stories associated with similar problems.
5: Finally are there any workarounds so I can get it running temporarily.

Thanks,
Julian
 
jdcaples

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
jfreeth said:
Hi Folks,
Ignition switch problem with a 2008 diesel, luckily occurred in driveway, unluckily whilst packing for multiday camping trip.

Symptoms: Insert key in ignition switch and cannot turn. Instead of a normal electronic sound on key insertion(sort of short buzzing or motor whir) there is just a sequence of several double clicks that sounds like a relay clicking. The sound comes from behind the console, near the key, probably on the steering column. I mention this as it does not come from the several relays above the fuse panel. All the electronics operating normally otherwise. With drivers door open, 'remove key' occurs when normall displayed.
No other recent prior symptoms, use vehicle daily, in midst of RV conversion but have not touched the electronics/electrical circuits yet.

Things tried:
Checked drivers seat fuse panel and console fuse panel, all 43 fuses ok
Removed battery ground cable for minute to reset system.
Tried multiple keys, to check if key fob battery issue.
Rotated steering wheel, full lock in both directions against column lock whilst trying key.
Have not tried reading error codes as I do not have a OBD2 compliant reader.

I tried removing the console panels to gain access to switch and steering wheel column, but was stumped at the last step by the clear plastic instrument panel and surrounding black bezel, which I presume has to be removed to release the last screws or latch holding the larger panel. There are two slots in the black bezel, just above the reset and +/- buttons which I assume are used to release the bezel, but so far no luck. I cannot find a clear diagram or description on this last step and don't want to break anything. I did release the center console cover, lower shrouds, grey left hand shroud, cover near windscreen, left hand speaker cover, and left hand column cover. The latter few not necessary but wasn't sure.

So I have several questions:
1: Is the Service Bulletin "Steering lock locks up" related to my current issue.
2: Not sure what the service warranty covers as I purchased the van new in July 2009(less than 3 years), but have accumulated 60,000 miles so far(30k warranty). The dealership changed hands shortly after I made the purchase, and am concerned about taking it to a local dealer, aside from the problem of getting it there.
3: How do I release the instrument cover and/or whatever is holding the main console panel(the black plastic console on which the key switch is mounted.
4: If the electronic control module on the steering column is faulty can I replace it with new unit. I have been reading this board since purchasing the van and the several horror stories associated with similar problems.
5: Finally are there any workarounds so I can get it running temporarily.

Thanks,
Julian
Click to expand...
OBD is largely emission system specific. You might get some codes off a generic reader, but a Sprinter-Specific scan tool is the best option for OBD diagnostics on your van.

I'm not sure which TSB you're talking about, but most include a list of vehicles - a range of numbers - impacted. If yours isn't on the list, it probably doesn't.

You're probably out of luck about the warranty repair. Warranty repairs aren't free; the cost goes from the dealer to the manufacturer and back to the dealer. It just looks free to the consumer because the consumer doesn't get invoiced.

Removing the console around the ignition switch is documented on www.sprintertekinfo.com and I recommend you subscribe to it and review the service info, which is muchly VIN specific.
Do not worry about the "2010 and above only" disclaimer. There is service info in there for 2002-2011 Sprinters. Another service is Chrysler's www.techauthority.com, but MB's service info is head-and-shoulders above what Chrysler offers.

If you have the time and the skill, you can use the service info to figure things out, otherwise, I'd get it towed to a dealership that you can talk to on the phone, establish some trust, get some expectations set and managed through out the repair process. If they can't be specific, call someone else.

-Jon
 
J

jfreeth

Member
Thanks for the response.
I am initially trying to diagnose what is the cause by careful disassembly and testing, but have limited funds and am consequently trying to avoid paid subscriptions and towing fees until I have a better understanding.
My current problem is the disassembly of the dash. From the list of specialized tools in the link you provided there is a clue as to how that is done, by the description of a couple of L shaped tools, presumably these are inserted into the slots in the clear plastic instrument cover, rotated, releasing the plastic latches, allowing removal.
This then provides access to the screw holding the lower dash cover to the upper cowling.
If anyone has access to the manuals, perhaps they could confirm this initial step.
 
J

jfreeth

Member
Thanks Aqua, I had read that thread in the past but could not find it, being a little freaked without wheels. I remembered Andy's description of the electronic sequence, but had forgotten several of the possible causes, such as gear shift not being solidly in 'park'. I had the classic 'park on full lock' issue with the ignition interlock sequence a few months ago. That being resolved by jiggling the steering wheel while on full lock and inserting/turning the key. At least it eventually cleared after twenty minutes of various jiggling. Ever since then the electronic sound that occurs after key insertion and recognition sometimes repeats several times until I slightly rotate the steering wheel. I only mention this as the system is apparently not robust, exemplified by the Service Bulletin "Steering lock locks up" referenced by Jon, the fix for which is steering column replacement along with associated modules.
The key is definitely recognized on insertion(prior to turning), but instead of the usual electronic noise on insertion there is a double click of a relay throwing. I can't identify which module has the relay that clicks, which is why I'm trying to strip down the dash to gain access.
Easter calls, so will return to ripping the dash apart tomorrow.
 
jdcaples

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
jfreeth said:
<snip>
I had the classic 'park on full lock' issue with the ignition interlock sequence a few months ago. That being resolved by jiggling the steering wheel while on full lock and inserting/turning the key. At least it eventually cleared after twenty minutes of various jiggling.

Ever since then the electronic sound that occurs after key insertion and recognition sometimes repeats several times until I slightly rotate the steering wheel. I only mention this as the system is apparently not robust, exemplified by the Service Bulletin "Steering lock locks up" referenced by Jon, the fix for which is steering column replacement along with associated modules.

<snip>
Easter calls, so will return to ripping the dash apart tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Yep. US NCV3 Sprinters: a great ride, but not robust and not inexpensive to maintain; probably the best thing when compared to contemporaries (2007-current) alternatives (which are all high maint and fragile if you think about your most reliable, simple, older transportation). Good luck with the bug hunt. Let us know if we can help with info; tell us where you are (maybe a bit more specific than Northport, NY) and one of us might be able to help out in person.

-Jon
 
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BRANCALEONE

BRANCALEONE

Member
Hi Julian.
First of all Happy Easter.
Regarding your problem I think I know the solution.
Stop right there, don't mess with the instrument cluster, there is nothing right there regarding your problem.
Your problem is in the steering column and precisely at the control module which is connected by a wire terminal.
It probably is defected and if you need one I could send one to you with a big discount (I'm not a dealership or store, I just have a spare part), just remember that after you install a new one you have to see a dealership to reprogram it.
I will give you more info tomorrow with the exact part number, or just visit a dealer near by for more info.

Good luck.

Mauro
 
J

jfreeth

Member
Thanks Jon and Mauro
I managed to remove the instrument panel by making an extraction tool, basically a modified allen key, that inserts into the slots on either side of the panel. On initial inspection there does not seem to be any specific latches or clips holding the panel in place. Removal is achieved by using the tool as a puller or hook to overcome a spring loaded friction fit. The problem with just pulling a piece of plastic is fear of breaking a simple clip. The electrical connector to the panel, for example, has a green plastic lever that rotates, lifting the connector out of the socket. This kind of clamping being common in computers, but not in older automotive applications.
We then had a very Polish Easter Feast at my in-laws, five different types of meat including a traditional stuffed cabbage that was excellent.
Time permitting I will be examining the ignition and steering modules next after removing the final fascia panel. The prime suspect is, as you suggest Mauro, the electronic module on the steering column. The problem with diagnosing issues like this is that you often rely on simple substitution to diagnose problems, fine if you are a dealership and have spare parts at hand. What I term 'black box' methods, you often have no clear idea what is embedded in a potted electronic circuit.
I checked whether the gear shift was solidly in 'Park' by removing the quarter sized cover on the grey plastic shift surround and inserting a tool, with foot on brake pedal, allowing release of gear shift lock and movement of lever. No change with ignition, but good to know for future.
I found out yesterday that there is a specialized Sprinter dealership a few miles away on the south shore of Long Island, Northport being on the north shore. The local MB dealer apparently only handles automobiles... but a local Dodge dealership has been very helpful in the past, but as I indicated before, funds are tight.
Thanks for the encouragement, Julian.
 
jdcaples

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
It's unfortunate that we're resorting to the "when in doubt, swap it out" methodology. I prefer reserving that for 1980s laser printers and software patches that roll back properly.

I sent you a PM with some info of limited, but non-zero utility.

-Jon
 
J

jfreeth

Member
On getting better access (without removing the steering wheel yet) I inserted the key several times, with accompanying double click that sounds like a relay solenoid. When rotating the steering column I noticed that the electromechanical device that is attached just above the universal joint is made up of at least two parts. The main frame that is clamped around the column and a separate electromechanical module that slightly floats inside the other casing when the steering wheel is rotated back and forth between the stops. This unit warms slightly to the touch when the key is repeatedly inserted. From it's location this looks like it is the steering column lock, powered either by a solenoid or small motor.
Does anyone know specifically what and how this module functions ?
When the electrical connector is unplugged the solenoid/relay click stops. Is this the unit that makes the buzzing sound on key recognition. etc...
Mauro, is this the unit you were referring to.
As the key is recognized but the steering column does not unlock, could this be the root cause of the problem.
I will try and locate a mechanical drawing of this device meanwhile.

Next step after that I guess is removing the steering wheel, so the column can be removed or the electromechanical part disassembled to see if it is a strictly mechanical problem of parts jamming etc.
 
S

scubanw3

Member
Ignition switch module failure is common. The module is a gateway similar to the SKREEM in the 02-06 models. It unlocks the steering column, the trani shift selector and many other enabling functions. When it fails it exhibits symptoms similar to what you described. It does need to be programmed by the dealer or someone that has cloning capabilities. They run about $400 plus install and programming. Hope this helps.

Thank you, John
Sprinter Store
http://sprinterstore.com/
A division of Upscale Automotive, Inc.
19460 SW 89th Ave.
Tualatin, OR 97062
503-692-0846
 
J

jfreeth

Member
I was stymied in my dissassembly of the steering column by the main bolt holding the steering wheel, required way too much torque. So I applied small amounts of penetrating oil over a week, and the bolt released at a reasonable torque using a small breaker bar and a 1" dia. wood dowel. This was all so I could gain clear access to all the electronic modules around the steering column.

Then a brief hiatus of 6 weeks whilst my boys(10 and 13) and I section hiked the Appalachian trail, from PA almost to Vermont. Despite careful precautions I managed to contract Lymne disease, so now back to real world problems.

I finished dissassembly of the dash and was surprised to find that the electronic module attached to the steering column where it connects to the rest of the steering linkage does not appear to be bolted, at least the pins have flatish heads as though rivetted or are press fit. This is the part I presumed was the column locking mechanism, solenoid plus pin that is not disengaging. I had hoped by stripping and dissassembly I could then evaluate which of the modules had failed and whether it was electronic or mechanical in origin.

Has anyone had experience stripping the steering column ?

I have read elsewhere that one standard practice for MB mechanics when the ignition steering column lock fails, is to simply replace the entire steering column assembly.
 
S

showkey

Well-known member
A guess is you maybe looking at anti theft bolts (fasteners) that are one time use and are removed by drilling the head's???
 
U

upnorth

Member
Hi Julian. I have been reading your posts about your problem and I know your frustration. I am having another problem with my van not starting (no glow plug light coming on) but when it does come on the van will start.

Jef, another member, had the same problem on his van and had it repaired. I am trying to find the relay he had replaced somewhere under or near the steering column. I have taken mine apart to a point, but did not want to go much further without knowing where it is. Since you have your apart do you see any such relay?? Below is his post about the fix. Unfortunately he does not know the exact location of the relay or it's part number. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

cedarsanctum said:
Back from the dealer with some hopeful results. Found the same trouble codes as the last 2 times in for this problem, and it all pointed to a "CAN bus - No CAN message from control unit N70 (OCP [DBE] control unit)". This fault showed up in the OBF upper control panel, the SAM signal acquisition and actuation module, the ESP, the EGS, and a host of other smaller parts.

Turns out the fault led to a relay under the dash that is the point it all goes through, and after it was removed it showed corrosion on the terminals creeping down from inside the relay. I didn't get the part, but it was a $26 relay, and the tech said it's the 3rd time he's seen this.

Fortunately, this was not the first time i had reported this problem. It occurred exactly 1 month before the 3 years of the warranty expired, and once again after that, and McCoy recorded it both times. Because of that, they covered this repair on warranty. Unfortunately, i didn't get the part to examine, or the part number, though it looked like a standard relay.

My thanks to McCoy for pulling through with the service. I hope this fixes it. Being stuck along a deserted back road is no fun.
Jef
Click to expand...
 
jdcaples

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
upnorth,

It's worth noting that Jef uses his Sprinter as a camper. He's had moisture/condensation problems:

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14075

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showpost.php?p=119213&postcount=7


It's based on the knowing of his application that I'm not panic'd myself.

My van doesn't get wet inside like a camper's RV; so I'm thinking that since my van doesn't get turned into a wet sauna, my chance of corrosion is not great enough to go ripping through the electronics looking for corroded relay contacts.

Of course, if someone finds this relay, I'll go check it. I'm just not worried enough to start hunting for it as soon as possible.

-Jon
 
cedarsanctum

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Look for the relay at the top of the fuse panel under the dash, above where the drivers foot would be. It's behind the OBDII port, kinda hard to access. I didn't remove any, but the plastic trim looks like it will come down pretty easily. There are about 6 relays up there (hard to see without removing stuff).
I'm not sure my condensation problem was the cause of this. I asked the technician at McCoy and he didn't feel that was the cause. He said he's personally seen this condition twice before, both in working vans. Most all my condensation was up high in the roof, and that hasn't occurred since i started leaving the front windows open a bit.
My suggestion is to remove those relays, one at a time, and inspect the terminals, especially where they go up inside the terminal housing, for any signs of corrosion. If the part numbers match on any relays, try switching them around and seeing if that affects anything.
Jef
 
J

jfreeth

Member
All the electrical systems in the van are free of any corrosion, neither is condensation an issue.

Having opened up the dash, removed steering wheel and loosened the steering column mounts, I reassembled all the electronics... and have the same problem.

The pertinent section of Andy's note is : If the correct key is inserted the EIS/CGW unlocks the lock cylinder allowing rotation of the key. A message is then sent to the Electronic Steering Lock Control to actuate and unlock the steering column and allowing steering wheel rotation.

The problem I have could be caused by failure of the EIS/CGW, but there is a possibility the failure is in unlocking the steering column. On inserting the key the steering column solenoid is actuated (several times with short delay between them) but the column does not unlock. If this solenoid is jammed, and the EIS/CGW requires a clear signal indicating the column is unlocked then replacement of the steering column lock would be indicated. Unfortunately I have not yet worked out how to separate the steering column from the black lower steering rod(below the flexible joint) that goes through the firewall. If I could do that then I might be able to diagnose the steering column lock better. I am going to have to remove it if I have to replace the steering column assembly anyway.

Alternately if I could locate a functioning 2008 steering column lock, plug that one in instead and see if there any changes. If not then this indicates that the EIS/CGW has probably gone bad.

From other notes from Andy it looks like neither the EIS/CGW or the column lock require any program changes, the key information being stored elsewhere.

I should take up Jon's suggestion of subscribing to www.sprintertekinfo.com.
Thanks Folks
Julian
 
R

reromero

New member
I have some information that you are looking for, I just had this happen on a cust vehicle the other day, the steering colum lock module failed. I have some info that can help you in your quest to get the steering lock off the column. I will post the info on my next post, bear with me while I gather the info you need...
 
R

reromero

New member
I'm attaching a couple documents that give the proper diagnostic procedure and the best way to remove a seized steering lock module if necessary. Although you may need a StarMobile scanner to diagnose it and initialize the EIS/CGW to the new lock module before the key will turn with the new steering lock. :thumbup:
 

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