Cold starting problem

I have had several issues all of which have been taking care of except for one with this van. Please if anyone can help me diagnose.

Van starts and runs great all day and even sitting overnight with temperature above 32 (give or take) van will start fine. Once temperture drops any further van will not start at all. Turn key and it will just crank and crank, but not fire up. For a while, I would just place a kerosene heater under the drivers door facing the front and will start after 20 minutes or so with out any issues and would run great all day. I then read a thread about starting problems due to bad fuselink cable to battery and different voltage reading test at either point. I performed test and all was ok I had same reading at either point. I then said to myself maybe battery is getting a little weak once the temperature gets cold out and might not being supplying enough juice to start van, It is the original battery (07 van). Although it seems to crank fine and have enough juice, I decided to one morning that was cold out to place a car jump starter on it to see if it would start. Sure enough it cranked a lot faster and van started right up. No heater was needed. I then went out figuring battery wasn't holding a charge(maybe dead cell) once temperature gets cold and bought a new battery. Once again when temperature dropped van would not start with out jump starter or heater

To me it feels as if the van isn't receiving any fuel almost like its frozen or maybe fuel pump isn't working properly. I don't know tho, any ideas?

Have no codes or dummy lights on..

The fact that it starts when you add a jump start says your problem is related to cranking speed....not fuel.

When you said you tested the battery cables, where did you put your test leads and under what conditions?

I tested directly from battery and under the hood on the jumping point where it has a red cap that slides. Read 12.84 on both sides. While cranking and testing from red cap it dropped to 10 or 11 and change before I changed the battery. The condition was around 34 degrees in the morning and it didn't start til' I jumped.

OK....what you need to do is perform a proper voltage drop test on the cable while it is under load, to do that you need to have alligator clips on the end of your multimeter leads.

Set you meter to read 10 V or less, put one lead on the battery positive post, and the other, On the starter motor positive post. While cranking, the reading should not be more than .2v.

If it passes this test, you likely have a weak battery.

If you cant do this test, look at the pics in this thread

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13606

The first of Shane's pics shows the cable going off to the right has melted the protective loom off of it.....a sure sign of a bad cable (which is becoming a common problem).

Try that.

piper1 said:

OK....what you need to do is perform a proper voltage drop test on the cable while it is under load, to do that you need to have alligator clips on the end of your multimeter leads.

Set you meter to read 10 V or less, put one lead on the battery positive post, and the other, On the starter motor positive post. While cranking, the reading should not be more than .2v.

If it passes this test, you likely have a weak battery.

If you cant do this test, look at the pics in this thread

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13606

The first of Shane's pics shows the cable going off to the right has melted the protective loom off of it.....a sure sign of a bad cable (which is becoming a common problem).

Try that.

Click to expand...

Ok, I just performed above test and the initial crank it reads .3 but quickly drops to .2 as it cranks. Cables looks fine no signs of coming apart. 44 degrees at the moment and it won't start. Been sitting all night.

Edit .. it did start after 5th try

But it always starts right away if you boost it or heat things up a bit right? No check engine or glow plug lights on the dash right? and it starts fine after sitting all night but does not get below freezing?

When you add the extra electricity does it crank over noticeably faster?

piper1 said:

But it always starts right away if you boost it or heat things up a bit right? No check engine or glow plug lights on the dash right? and it starts fine after sitting all night but does not get below freezing?

When you add the extra electricity does it crank over noticeably faster?

Click to expand...

Yes to all your questions.... I've change fuel filter twice and also used that antigel just in case thinking fuel was freezing (water in line)..I can put the heater blowing directly in the grille blowing directly on engine and it won't start. Only way it starts is placing heater directly behind under drivers door facing and blowing towards the engine. It will still kind of crank slow if its real cold out but fire up quickly. When adding boost and no heat it cranks a lot faster and might take litttle longer to fire, but it does. I haven't tried the boost in real cold conditions yet as I've just discover it will start with it and it hasn't been that cold this year around here yet. Coldest has been around 24 or so..

Can it be some type of temperature sensor that is malfunctioning?

piper1 said:

OK....what you need to do is perform a proper voltage drop test on the cable while it is under load, to do that you need to have alligator clips on the end of your multimeter leads.

Set you meter to read 10 V or less, put one lead on the battery positive post, and the other, On the starter motor positive post. While cranking, the reading should not be more than .2v.

If it passes this test, you likely have a weak battery.

If you cant do this test, look at the pics in this thread

Click to expand...

How long are your meter's leads?

Are you using the jumpstart post (mounted on the air cleaner housing) for the battery side, or are you removing the battery cover/floor board to access the postive side of the battery?

-Jon

jdcaples said:

How long are your meter's leads?

Are you using the jumpstart post (mounted on the air cleaner housing) for the battery side, or are you removing the battery cover/floor board to access the postive side of the battery?

-Jon

Click to expand...

About 3 feet long the leads.

I am testing from under the floor directly from battery .

By putting the heat under the door vs putting it in through the front you are also heating up the battery. Warm batteries produce more output than cold ones. It cranks faster when you add jump start power. Both of these things point to weak battery voltage. You are sure you did the voltage drop test exactly as described and actually went from the starter motor post to the battery positive post (not any jump start or other post). You should do the same test on the negative side, battery negative post to a good CLEAN connection at the starter (one of the mounting bolts will work). Results should be under .2V as well.

If the cables all look and test good and connections are clean, based on what you have told me you have a weak battery, but you replaced it. What did you replace it with?

piper1 said:

By putting the heat under the door vs putting it in through the front you are also heating up the battery. Warm batteries produce more output than cold ones. It cranks faster when you add jump start power. Both of these things point to weak battery voltage. You are sure you did the voltage drop test exactly as described and actually went from the starter motor post to the battery positive post (not any jump start or other post). You should do the same test on the negative side, battery negative post to a good CLEAN connection at the starter (one of the mounting bolts will work). Results should be under .2V as well.

If the cables all look and test good and connections are clean, based on what you have told me you have a weak battery, but you replaced it. What did you replace it with?

Click to expand...

Yes I have tested exactly how you describe. I just redid test positive to positive with same results. I just performed the neg to neg test and come up with 9.50 to 10.0 while cranking.




Battery I just bought: AutoCraft Gold Battery, Group Size 49H8, 800 CCA Group Size: 49H8
Voltage: 12
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) @ 0°F: 800
Cranking Amps @ 32°F: 950
Reserve Capacity (minutes): 100ah
Terminal Type: SAE top post
Height (in.): 14-5/16
Width (in.): 6-7/8
Length (in.): 7-1/2
Weight (lbs.):

I've load tested both batteries old and new one and both passed and tested fine.Old one actually tested better.

Gixxer1kr said:

Yes I have tested exactly how you describe. I just redid test positive to positive with same results. I just performed the neg to neg test and come up with 9.50 to 10.0 while cranking.
Battery I just bought: AutoCraft Gold Battery, Group Size 49H8, 800 CCA Group Size: 49H8
Voltage: 12
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) @ 0°F: 800
Cranking Amps @ 32°F: 950
Reserve Capacity (minutes): 100ah
Terminal Type: SAE top post
Height (in.): 14-5/16
Width (in.): 6-7/8
Length (in.): 7-1/2
Weight (lbs.):
I've load tested both batteries old and new one and both passed and tested fine.Old one actually tested better.

Click to expand...

Probably because the stock battery has a CCA rating of 850. You actually went down on power from stock.

+1 on the under-rated new battery.

I couldn't find a CCA rating on my factory battery (Maybe I missed it), but I have some kind of literature in my bedroom that said it was 95 amp hours/850 CCA.....

-Jon

In my recent digging for a deal I found that the OEM spec is for an 850 cca group 49 battery. I didn't find a reserve number. That said, the Douglas white color battery (2004 original maybe?) I pulled out was noticeably heavier than the Sam's Club Energizer I put in to replace it. My old school values make me think a heavier battery is a better battery, but that may no longer be true if the technology has improved? vic

All things being equal, a heavier battery is a better battery. Fundamentally heavy duty (high capacity) batteries are heavy because they carry more lead in the plates. More plate area translates to more capacity.

More information about batteries than most people want to know,, but very useful for long lived batteries

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Lifespan of Batteries

PS In fact there are only a few major battery manufacturers that make most of the batteries out there. They just carry different private labels.

Gixxer1kr said:

Yes I have tested exactly how you describe. I just redid test positive to positive with same results. I just performed the neg to neg test and come up with 9.50 to 10.0 while cranking.




Battery I just bought: AutoCraft Gold Battery, Group Size 49H8, 800 CCA Group Size: 49H8
Voltage: 12
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) @ 0°F: 800
Cranking Amps @ 32°F: 950
Reserve Capacity (minutes): 100ah
Terminal Type: SAE top post
Height (in.): 14-5/16
Width (in.): 6-7/8
Length (in.): 7-1/2
Weight (lbs.):

I've load tested both batteries old and new one and both passed and tested fine.Old one actually tested better.

Click to expand...

Your new battery is fine, high cold cranking amps aren't the end all be all, in fact, higher cranking amp batteries are less likely to live longer, especially under cycling conditions. Newer gel-cell batteries don't always follow that logic however. Amps required to crank over our little V-6 are not that high.

Back to the issue, your test is telling you that you have a HUGE problem on the negative side of the starter power circuit. If your test is accurate, I'm surprised it cranks at all! Neg to neg should also be LESS than .2V.

Check all your negative battery cables, a voltage drop that big should be fairly simple to find! Voltage drop tests are the mechanics best friend!

piper1 said:

Your new battery is fine, high cold cranking amps aren't the end all be all, in fact, higher cranking amp batteries are less likely to live longer, especially under cycling conditions. Newer gel-cell batteries don't always follow that logic however. Amps required to crank over our little V-6 are not that high.

Back to the issue, your test is telling you that you have a HUGE problem on the negative side of the starter power circuit. If your test is accurate, I'm surprised it cranks at all! Neg to neg should also be LESS than .2V.

Check all your negative battery cables, a voltage drop that big should be fairly simple to find! Voltage drop tests are the mechanics best friend!

Click to expand...

Ok thanks, I will check carefully this weekend as the weather and work won't let me do now. Can you point me in the right direction as which neg cable I should check in particular? Am I checking the neg coming directly from battery and into the firewall somewhere? or the one off the starter ?

I was able to work on van today. Today is a cold day here was under 30 all day, van would not start from sitting all night. I tried several different things to start van this time. I tried to start van with new battery along with old battery as a jumper, didn't start. I then tried to start using jumping cable from battery post to engine starter pos and neg directly bypassing everything else, no start. I also jumped the y cable bypassing fuseable link and still didn't start. I then decided to redo tests as I had a helper today and realized I might have done neg test wrong. Sure enough I did and this time both test passed and come up bout the same .2v after the intial .3... So neg and pos cables are good along with battery (I load tested again). I then tried to with battery jumper starter which normally works ( but today is colder than it has been) and this time it wouldn't start at all. It was cranking full speed and nothing. So I put heater under drivers door for 10 minutes and it fires right up. HELP!

I don't know much about this subject, but I am going to make a wild ass guess. I think that just 10 minutes of heat cannot make much difference with the engine, but can make a difference with control components especially the engine computer and various electrical control elements under the drivers seat. Heat under the driver's door could be heating the computer and under the seat. Perhaps a test would be to heat the computer directly by placing a heating pad on top of the computer. This comes to mind because of an issue with Toyota Corollas, Matrix, and the Matrix twin Pontiac Vibe. I have a Vibe and most of these cars are being recalled because of an issue with the engine simply stopping at any time. It turns out that a tiny circuit trace ("solder trace") on the engine computer circuit board opens up a microscopic crack that opens a circuit. It could be that your engine computer is sensitive to cold and a connection in the computer, some wiring harness connector, or some control circuit is opening and telling the engine not to start even when cranked. Another approach would be to use a heat gun and try to pin point exactly where the application of heat allows starting. Also, is heat under the driver's door heating control circuitry under the driver's seat? Taking the seat out and blowing heat in that space might be revealing.

If the Engine Control Module Elecronic Control unt (ECM ECU) is the "computer" you're talking about; the ECM ECU is located in the engine compartment, far right hand side of the engine compartment, underneath (and made invisible because of) the aux battery in NCV3s.

Having said that, I do not know for a fact that ECM ECU is the only ECU involved in start-up.

-Jon