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OrioN
09-21-2010, 04:42 AM
Hmmmph!

So, I decided to stop in at the scales on saturday.
My rear rear axle weighed in at 2750kg/6062lbs.
My Michelins are rated at 1380kg/3042lbs.


CRAP! I'm at the Max.

Ok... I still have significant weight to add to the RV build (after shedding excess).
I figure i will need 300kg/660lbs more weight rating per tire.

Do I want to go with the elusive F or G on 16" wheel (can the stock wheels even handle 95 or 110lbs of air?)
Or, do I go with 17 to 20" tires/wheels?


HELP!!

Altered Sprinter
09-21-2010, 04:55 AM
Hmmmph!

So, I decided to stop in at the scales on saturday.
My rear rear axle weighed in at 2760kg/6084lbs.
My Michelins are rated at 1380kg/3042lbs.


CRAP! I'm at the Max.

Ok... I still have significant weight to add to the RV build (after shedding excess).
I figure i will need 300kg/660lbs more weight rating per tire.

Do I want to go with the elusive F or G on 16" wheel (can the stock wheels even handle 95 or 110lbs of air?)
Or, do I go with 17 to 20" tires/wheels?


HELP!! You cold go to Michelin and get A/C tyres! But could you really afford them.:smilewink:
Richard

OrioN
09-21-2010, 05:08 AM
You cold go to Michelin and get A/C tyres! But could you really afford them.:smilewink:
Richard

Huh? :thinking:

Altered Sprinter
09-21-2010, 05:19 AM
Yeah 30 ton per square inch. Cars, 4x4, Vans, Pickups (http://www.michelin.com/corporate/front/templates/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20070706155424&lang=EN)

OrioN
09-21-2010, 05:28 AM
Yeah 30 ton per square inch. Cars, 4x4, Vans, Pickups (http://www.michelin.com/corporate/front/templates/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20070706155424&lang=EN)

Huh II ?? - The Sequel :thinking:

Altered Sprinter
09-21-2010, 05:31 AM
The end squeal of load rating v speed .
26361 Go with M/A:smilewink:

Chandlerazman
09-21-2010, 05:38 AM
Richard, are you sure those tires aren't for a 747? :laughing:
OrioN, you need to get yourself a bus!

Altered Sprinter
09-21-2010, 05:42 AM
Richard, are you sure those tires aren't for a 747? :laughing:
OrioN, you need to get yourself a bus!
I think it was what OrioN was looking for before he landed back on earth,sure is a show stopper.
But it wont blow out.:lol:

OrioN
09-21-2010, 05:45 AM
Hmmmph!

So, I decided to stop in at the scales on saturday.
My rear rear axle weighed in at 2750kg/6062lbs.
My Michelins are rated at 1380kg/3042lbs.


CRAP! I'm at the Max.

Ok... I still have significant weight to add to the RV build (after shedding excess).
I figure i will need 300kg/660lbs more weight rating per tire.

Do I want to go with the elusive F or G on 16" wheel (can the stock wheels even handle 95 or 110lbs of air?)
Or, do I go with 17 to 20" tires/wheels?


HELP!!

Altered Sprinter
09-21-2010, 06:24 AM
No they cant as both rim and tire must be compatible.at high speed X=unknown
Your sprinter tires are rated dual with a 104 rating and single rim 110/112 off road type.
around 4,5 metric tonne but that is referenced to an over all load rating
Assuming you have dead weight on one rim exceeding 1200KG you are compromising both tire rim and suspension off sets.at high speed above 65 MPH of which is dependent on rid surface and het transferee as to flex on tires under load and cornering at variable road camber offsets.
This is why we have dual tires on the rear for higher load ratings a 195 width/ Sprinter tire is rated at 104 combined 208 per side.hence axle spring axle 204 x X
It sort of comes back to aircraft tires as to blow outs on landing and take off especialy if the tire hits a sharp object of which can impact to the tires destruction.3200 x X 3500 x X
I have yet to find a manufacture that actually makes one at affordable prices as these special armored tires start at 400 dollars to a 1000 dollars a piece and have to be bought in from Germany.
Nuts
Richard

OrioN
09-21-2010, 03:31 PM
No they cant as both rim and tire must be compatible.at high speed X=unknown
Your sprinter tires are rated dual with a 104 rating and single rim 110/112 off road type.
around 4,5 metric tonne but that is referenced to an over all load rating
Assuming you have dead weight on one rim exceeding 1200KG you are compromising both tire rim and suspension off sets.at high speed above 65 MPH of which is dependent on rid surface and het transferee as to flex on tires under load and cornering at variable road camber offsets.
This is why we have dual tires on the rear for higher load ratings a 195 width/ Sprinter tire is rated at 104 combined 208 per side.hence axle spring axle 204 x X
It sort of comes back to aircraft tires as to blow outs on landing and take off especialy if the tire hits a sharp object of which can impact to the tires destruction.3200 x X 3500 x X
I have yet to find a manufacture that actually makes one at affordable prices as these special armored tires start at 400 dollars to a 1000 dollars a piece and have to be bought in from Germany.
Nuts
Richard

1) I'm too far into the rv build to abandon and switch over to dually (I will loose ten's of thousands of $$$ if I swap chassis, and hundreds of hours.)
2) I have spring assists added, the van is raked forward and the rear suspension/chassis can handle an additional 1800lbs (bearing??? time will tell).
3) I'm considering A) F/G rated tires or, B) even parting out a SuSi rear end.

***

knighty
09-21-2010, 09:36 PM
I used to run a transit at over twice the rated weight on the back wheels, with 110psi in the (standerd) tyres.... and never had any problems
(didn't do this all the time, only when needed, didn't have much choice)

I can't see your ~5% over being anything to worry about

just keep checking the ware pattern of the tyre, if there's less treat in the middle than the edges, it needs more air in it, if it's the other way around (thinner in the middle) it needs less air in it ;)

NBB
09-21-2010, 10:03 PM
Probably at least a safety factor of 2 in those numbers...!

talkinghorse43
09-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Probably at least a safety factor of 2 in those numbers...!

Don't know what the actual safety factor is, but it might not be much. Years ago there were incidents reported with an '02 158 rv loaded to ~10k lbs that: lost a wheel at speed, blew a tire, and finally ruined the rear end.

piper1
09-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Given the relatively light duty design of the rear axle, I would do what I could to shift weight forward and reduce weight overall. These rear axles are not as tough and abuse tolerant as a traditional NAFTA van.

As for the tires, yes you can run all day at max ratings.....at 65mph or less. Your tires will also wear out faster, run hotter and be more prone to damage.

Now...if all your going to do is 10,000 miles a year, not much of this will catch up with you.

Aqua Puttana
09-22-2010, 01:11 AM
...

I can't see your ~5% over being anything to worry about

just keep checking the wear pattern of the tyre, if there's less tread in the middle than the edges, it needs more air in it, if it's the other way around (thinner in the middle) it needs less air in it ;)




...

As for the tires, yes you can run all day at max ratings.....at 65mph or less. Your tires will also wear out faster, run hotter and be more prone to damage.

Now...if all your going to do is 10,000 miles a year, not much of this will catch up with you.

As a practical matter I agree. Please just remember that if you're pushing the envelope, speed kills. Keep your speed down especially when the ambient temperatures are high. Good luck and have fun. vic

Altered Sprinter
09-22-2010, 03:06 AM
1) I'm too far into the rv build to abandon and switch over to dually (I will loose ten's of thousands of $$$ if I swap chassis, and hundreds of hours.)
2) I have spring assists added, the van is raked forward and the rear suspension/chassis can handle an additional 1800lbs (bearing??? time will tell).
3) I'm considering A) F/G rated tires or, B) even parting out a SuSi rear end.

***
Build A sprinter to suite your needs Start at 3500
Given the options of a full floating axle with a 5.00: final axle ratio.
Given the option of rear parabolic springs 3500 X3 =xxx/x
Given the option of a 2000KG front axle
Given the option of SuSi super Wide single rear rims Given the matched possible combination's of suspensions and re-reinforced chassis and sway bar /H/D shocks the list is endless, then you can have this.
Eight metric Tonne GVTW

26370
Your GVM restricts you on 3500 GVM NAFTA variant
26371
SUSI 2000 KG front axle
Rear Super single wide rims.
26372
It does not have to be 4x4 as suspensions for H/D loadings off road can be configured by Mercedes-Benz
26373
Tow away Free zone
26374
Tires are not the issue so much, it's how a load is distributed for maximum center of gravity. most RV vans have a high body chassis option.
Richard

OrioN
09-22-2010, 05:00 AM
I don't know if I'd want to run these 3040lbs Michelins at 3700lbs... that's 20% over... like 95lbs of air.

Do any of you know of any 16" tires that are LI 124 or F/G rated? Which fit on stock rim (assuming stoch rim can take 95-110lbs)?

At this point my springs and stablizer can do 10,300lbs. I'll deal with axle wear as it oocurs. I don't push this rig hard at all.

sailquik
09-22-2010, 05:34 AM
Orion,
Which Michelin Tires are you using on the rear of your DIY RV?
Have you looked at the Michelin XPS Rib or XPS Traction small truck tires?
Have you considered the insurance ramifications if anything happens and you need your
rig repaired or a tire blows and you lose control and someone is hurt?
Running well over the load rating of your tires, could easily be grounds for your insurance
company to deny any claims and fail to support you as you are (in the insurance industries
legal opinion) grossly exceeding the weight rating of both your vehicle and your rear tires?
Plus if you do not have it registered as an RV, and it does not look like an RV, you could get
hauled into a scale somewhere or stopped by the truck enforcement officers, and they will
cause you not end of grief if you are overweight or exceeding your tire capacity.
Hope this helps,
Roger

jdcaples
09-22-2010, 03:20 PM
I don't know if I'd want to run these 3040lbs Michelins at 3700lbs... that's 20% over... like 95lbs of air.

Do any of you know of any 16" tires that are LI 124 or F/G rated? Which fit on stock rim (assuming stoch rim can take 95-110lbs)?

At this point my springs and stablizer can do 10,300lbs. I'll deal with axle wear as it oocurs. I don't push this rig hard at all.

You definitely should not run your Michelins at a pressure higher than 80 PSI. I think you need an alternative and I think you're not going to find the stock size in an F or G rating.

Size:

Shanemac installed tires that are 235/85R16 in size:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8229

So these should fit the rim....


Greenball has a load range G tire in that size, part number: LTH1623585G

Greenball website link: http://www.greenball.com/products.asp?category=97

I'm not sure your rims are designed to deal with that kind of air pressure in the tire.

-Jon

OrioN
09-22-2010, 04:24 PM
Thanks Jon...

I have the Greenballs already on my radar/bookmark. If I go with them, I'll confirm that our stocker wheels/rims cannot do the 110PSI.

But if I need new rims/wheels, this automatically opens up the option of different rim sizes ie. 17, 17.5 19.19.5 etc.... and a huge selection of truck and rv tires...

So, I need to do more research...

OrioN
09-22-2010, 04:30 PM
Orion,
Which Michelin Tires are you using on the rear of your DIY RV?
Have you looked at the Michelin XPS Rib or XPS Traction small truck tires?
Have you considered the insurance ramifications if anything happens and you need your
rig repaired or a tire blows and you lose control and someone is hurt?
Running well over the load rating of your tires, could easily be grounds for your insurance
company to deny any claims and fail to support you as you are (in the insurance industries
legal opinion) grossly exceeding the weight rating of both your vehicle and your rear tires?
Plus if you do not have it registered as an RV, and it does not look like an RV, you could get
hauled into a scale somewhere or stopped by the truck enforcement officers, and they will
cause you not end of grief if you are overweight or exceeding your tire capacity.
Hope this helps,
Roger

I'm on your side here for sure. I DO NOT want to run over the tire rating for all stated reasons, this was never an option.
My van is very RV looking, and it's suspension upgrade can, and shows no sign of not being able to, handle 10,300lbs.

Both of those tires you list have the identical load rating as my current LTX M/S.

For the next short while, after shedding excess weight and then adding the same back with the next RV build options, I can maintain the current 9,300lbs with 6000lbs on the 2 rears.... but it will be short lived.

sailquik
09-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Orion,
You do know that you absolutely have to have all 4 tires and wheels (all 6 on a 3500)
the same size, right?
If not, the ASR will detect different wheel speeds and shut you down very quickly.
This is very important!
One of the forum members had a set of snow tires slightly larger than stock
put on the back of a 2500.
He made it about 1/2 a block from the tire shop.
Had to limp back and get snow tires that matched what was on the front of the
van exactly.
Hope this helps,
Roger

kendall69
09-22-2010, 04:55 PM
Bottom line you need a dually. Personally I wouldn't want to be driving around with max rating and no back up. With a dually you have two back ups on the tire. I had a dually on a truck and before I went on a long trip I went for a tire rotation. The service guys tells me i have TWO flat tires in the read. I have been driving around with two flat inner tires on the dually and never knew. That convinced me about the benefits of a dually.

Even with these new Single tire to take the place of dually is not as good as the dually. Two is always better than one.

OrioN
09-22-2010, 04:56 PM
All tires will have (near) same diameter.

Lassen
09-22-2010, 05:57 PM
Hey there

I'm using these tyres : http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre?id=10360793&group=3.02&name=Nokian+Hakka+C+Cargo

With loadindex of 121 = 1450 kilos :thumbup:

OrioN
09-22-2010, 06:11 PM
Hey there

I'm using these tyres : http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre?id=10360793&group=3.02&name=Nokian+Hakka+C+Cargo

With loadindex of 121 = 1450 kilos :thumbup:

I will need an LI closer 124. 121 is only 50kg more than my current Michelins. Thanks!

NBB
09-22-2010, 06:17 PM
At this point, I would really like to see some pix of the back of this conversion! I am having a hard time picturing an RV setup that is heavier than a commercial parts or tool truck.

What if the guy running the scale was wrong? Have you considered a second opinion?

Also - how come so often I find that the sum of the front and rear axle weights are more than the total weight on those door stickers?

OrioN
09-22-2010, 06:21 PM
At this point, I would really like to see some pix of the back of this conversion. I am having a hard time picturing an RV setup that is heavier than a commercial parts or tool truck.

What if the guy running the scale was wrong? Have you considered a second opinion?

Funny you should mention that... I did some calculations imediately after I was weighed... and with a 30% error margin, I still CAN'T account for 1,000lbs. I will be going to the other scales in the county this Saturday morning....
But, last fall, before Upscale did the springs, I was sagging.

My build is not excessive for the most part. Extensive use of aluminum... for bedframe, deskframe, bulkheads, Trims, etc.
But, I do have 600lbs of batteries, 200lbs genset, and dual propane tanks at 200lbs full. Awning under 100lbs, solar/racks 150lbs, bedplatform 125lbs, windows with security shutters 175lbs, invertor/charger/power center/wires @400lbs. Desk/computer/equipment @200lbs = So build is around 2200lbs, and I guess I'm cargo'ing 2000lbs of tools and food, go figure!

jdcaples
09-22-2010, 06:55 PM
OrioN was inadvertently programmed by a 1976 children's television (Saturday morning) show called "Ark II"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_II

Driven by his subconcious, OrioN was compelled to build something similar out of a Sprinter.


26393


26392



-Jon

OrioN
09-22-2010, 07:03 PM
Considering I need to shed some load, guess which 3 out of the 4 passangers in the picture won't make my trip?

rheckert
09-23-2010, 12:11 PM
On one of my prior cargo van's ( a E350 Superduty 7.3 turbodiesel extended body single rear tires NOT a dually ) i replaced the tires with steel sidewall e rated tires ( Michelin XPS RIB )that were special ordered from Mr P's tires in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The price was around $200 per tire that included new valve stems,mounting and balancing. I actually hauled over 9,000 lbs more than once over 500 miles each time without any problems at all, The stiff sidewall eliminates roll and it handled very well.
Don't forget to also replace your spare as well, if you have to use it and it is not a like tire your ride and handleing will most likely be crap and it would also be a safety issue.
Hope this helps or at least sends you in the proper direction.

sailquik
09-26-2010, 04:21 PM
Hi OrioN;
I hope the ASR portion of your Sprinter's Electronic Control Unit (ECU) feels that "(near) the same diameter" is OK.
If it doesn't you face ASR faults, ASR induced application of the brakes on the smaller tires, perhaps even Limp Home
Mode (LHM).
Roger