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ctmcdaniel
06-07-2007, 01:51 PM
On my to arrive in 5 months or more 144" cargo, crew seat, standard roof:

I'm planing on running some additional wiring and then spray foaming, trimming the foam back and topping it with 3/8" appleply (multi layer low void plywood from state industrys). 2 side wall E-tracks and coating it with 3 coats of polyurethane.


What is the down side of the spray on insulation. I'm looking for maximum thermal and acoustic properties.

Thanks

Tom

Altered Sprinter
06-07-2007, 02:07 PM
Tom HK always has the goodies on doing mods to Sprinters
Richard
Insulation Links for DIYs (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209&highlight=insulation)
site:www.rbcomponents.com dodge sprinter insulation - Google Image Search (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-45,GGGL:en&q=+site:www.rbcomponents.com+dodge+sprinter+insula tion)
2073

BMA
06-07-2007, 04:39 PM
On my to arrive in 5 months or more 144" cargo, crew seat, standard roof:

I'm planing on running some additional wiring and then spray foaming, trimming the foam back and topping it with 3/8" appleply (multi layer low void plywood from state industrys). 2 side wall E-tracks and coating it with 3 coats of polyurethane.


What is the down side of the spray on insulation. I'm looking for maximum thermal and acoustic properties.

Thanks

Tom

Changing things latter can be a PITA. I recommend running the wires in conduits so they can be repaired latter. Keep your sound system conduits away from your electrical ones. Don't run low voltage DC in the same conduits as your high voltage AC.

If you just spray in insulation you won't have any reflective layers. A single reflective layer to the outside and inside can dramatically improve insulation performance. The key to a reflective layer is having an air gap so the reflective surface can work properly. The air gap only needs to be a 1/32 inch or larger. Otherwise spraying in insulation should get you near maximum performance as most voids will be filled. R-7 per inch is about the maximum I've seen for foam, but my data is about 3 years old. Adding a single reflective layer to each side of a foam block will add near R-5 for radiant heat in each direction, but does nothing for conducted heat. I've been trying to figure out a way to do both spray in and also have a reflective layer.

I haven't tried this yet, but my current thoughts are to use a netting like fish netting to provide bridging to allow the reflective layer to be held away from the side wall of the van. I'd take a 1/2 inch to 1 inch spaced netting and spray down both sides with a high temperature spray adhesive. Stick it to the inside side of the outside sheet metal. Then I'd stick the reflective craft paper to it with the reflective layer to the outside of the wall. I'd use a hard surfaced roller with low pressure to get the netting and reflective craft paper adheared. Then I'd let it setup. Next I'd spray in my foam. Trim it up after it's setup and use the spray adhesive again to adhere the reflective craft paper to the inside side of the foam. It's allot of work and I'm looking for a faster and easier solution.

The layup would look something like this:


============= <- outside sheet metal
O=====O=====O <- netting layer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <- reflective side up
#############
############# <- foam
#############
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <- reflective side down
O=====O=====O <- netting layer
============= <- inside wall covering


For the greatest acoustic deadening you need to add heavy dense layers that won't resonate into your insulation. Alternating thin sheets of lead with foam or felt seams to work the best. This is commonly done for engine rooms on boats.

- Bryan

BMA
06-08-2007, 03:48 AM
I've been reading the sound deadening article linked to by the other thread mentioned above. Many good points. Well worth reading.

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

I had planned to mainly support my sprayed in insulation via it's edges. That is to the framing of the Sprinter and what I add for supporting my interior walls, cabinets, etc.. I had chosen to do it that way because I couldn't locate an adhesive I thought would be good for 10 plus years use. I'm sure they exist, but how to get them as a consumer?

I like the idea of adding mass to the sheet metal exterior to help deaden vibrations:thumbup:, but it interferes with adding that outer reflective layer:thumbdown:. I'm now thinking about looking for a 90+% reflective white auto paint. If I could find that I wouldn't need to have an exterior reflective insulation layer. The paint would provide it. 95% to 98% reflectance is what you get from a craft backed reflective paper. Why do I keep thinking of dewar bottles?:thinking: They are thermos bottles for holding liquid nitrogen and other very cold liquids. Usually they are constructed of an inner and outer bottle with a vacuum between them. They also have many layers of reflective foil in the evacuated space between the bottles to keep down radiant heat gains. Anyways this made me remember VIPs (Vacuum Insulation Panels) which are made with a core material sandwiched inside an evacuated membrane. Unfortunately the cost is still a bit expensive:thumbdown:. I've seen prices listed as $3-$5 per square foot in volume, but the best I've been quoted is $96 for a 2 foot by 2 foot panel that would provide R-28 insulation value. For the icebox, yes, van body, :censored: no. RParts (http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Box_Building/insulation/insulation.asp) is the place that has them. Up to 32" square. There seams to be a base charge, then a cost per square foot. If I could get the charges down to $5 a square foot it may be worth it.

BMA
06-08-2007, 05:39 AM
Seeing I was thinking of possibly using DOW Great-Stuff expanding foam to hold in sheets of rigid foam. I wanted to check it's temperature limits. It is only 240F cured, and has an uncured flash point of only 160F:wtf: or so. Hum... May not be the most long term durable. Cars can get as high as 220F in the summer.

The other spray in foam I can easily get only goes up to 200F. That is Handi-Foam from Foam Power. It is available in bulk packaging from FarmTek.

Active venting??? Open a vent if the temp gets over so high, but what about the skin temperature of the vehicle?

Looks like some of my plans went out the window...:thumbdown: Better now than after installation :smirk:.

Anybody know of other easily purchased bulk spray in foam sources?

- Bryan

BMA
06-08-2007, 09:27 AM
I did some web searching for maximum service temperatures for some spray in foam insulations I could find DIY kits available to the public. Some Versi-Foam versions seamed to be the winner with the highest temperature handling and R value.

- Bryan

http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/
VERSI-FOAM Systems I, 15 and 50 Disposable Foam Kit – 250F max service temp, R-7.7/inch.
VERSI-FOAM Systems 15 Class I and 50 Class I Disposable Foam Kit – 250F max service temp.
VERSI-FOAM Systems 15 and 50 Slow Rise Disposable Foam Kit – 250F max service temp.
VERSI-FOAM® Systems 10 and 33 Disposable Foam Kit – 250F max service temp, R-7.7/inch.
VERSI-FOAM® Systems 28 and 88 Disposable Foam Kit – max 150F service temperature.


http://www.gaco.com/
Gaco Western WallFoam System 193 – max 200F
Gaco Western RoofFoam System 273 – max 200F
Gaco Western WallFoam System 173 – max 200F
PolyFoam System CF-200 – max 200F


Http://www.tigerfoam.com/
max 200F, both slow and fast rise forms.


Dow Froth-Pack – do not expose to greater than 240F. No max service life temperature found.


http://www.earthfoam.net/ EarthFoam – unknown max service temperature. Flash point > 300F for uncured.


http://www.touch-n-seal.com/specifications.htm
One part – r-4.5/inch 240F max service temp.
Two Part foams, R-5.2 to R-7.12 per inch, max 240F service temperature.


Icynene Inc. – not to be installed within 2” of 200F temperature source.

ctmcdaniel
06-09-2007, 03:26 AM
On additional radiant barriers it's just too much work for nominal gain.

I'm going from R nothing to over r-7 thats good enough for me. I suspect the walls will be in the r-10 to 12 and the roof R-7 to 8.

I'm going to have an expericened foamer spray it in for me and then trim it back my self.
I will go with one of the foams that has 240 to 250 service range and that will be fine. I know guys who have had this done to thier service trucks and not even cover the foam up. The stuff just holds.

Follow the link posted above to the folks who up fit sprinters for Dog show people.

Thanks for doing the foam temp checks.


Tom

scotty
06-09-2007, 08:58 AM
great discussion... my 140 passenger has factory installed front insulation and rear insulation which is an option i didn't see on many sprinters in our area (along with auxiliary heater package... ironic that i drove down to southern california from seattle to get a van with aux heaters!)... i haven't pulled the door panels or explored behind the interior panels... anyone know what this material actually looks like? or a published r value?

i am planning on doing some additional insulation as much for noise reduction in the future... curious what's in there...

Altered Sprinter
06-09-2007, 12:00 PM
Ultimate Wind surfer conversion old link but uses what your looking for on R values good photographs and descriptions etc.

Ultimate Windsurfing Van Ultimate Windsurfing Van Ultimate ... (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.steynfamily.com%2Fultimate_wi ndsurfing_van_02.htm&ei=YodqRpyrGYGGhQOAk4ThAg&usg=AFQjCNFrpOnJeF5G9_H7xR5zcwtsOObSwQ&sig2=sHQ47P1qIT1vI6cQlwlMDA)
WARNING CONSIDER THE HEALTH RISKS
msdsVERSI-FOAM® Systems I, 15 and 50 Standard (http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/pdf/msds_std.pdf)

RICHARD

BMA
06-09-2007, 05:18 PM
Ultimate Wind surfer conversion old link but uses what your looking for on R values good photographs and descriptions etc.

Ultimate Windsurfing Van Ultimate Windsurfing Van Ultimate ... (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.steynfamily.com%2Fultimate_wi ndsurfing_van_02.htm&ei=YodqRpyrGYGGhQOAk4ThAg&usg=AFQjCNFrpOnJeF5G9_H7xR5zcwtsOObSwQ&sig2=sHQ47P1qIT1vI6cQlwlMDA)
WARNING CONSIDER THE HEALTH RISKS
msdsVERSI-FOAM® Systems I, 15 and 50 Standard (http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/pdf/msds_std.pdf)

I did. All that I listed I felt one could find the proper protective gear to apply. For protective gear, see Gempler's (http://www.gemplers.com). They have protective gear for most pesticides and the spray foam is tame in comparison to some pesticides. A fan blowing a steady stream of fresh air through the van is maybe the most important protective step. It reduces the level of harmful vapors. Next would be a chemical filter mask designed to remove the chemicals present. Finally full coverage protective clothing.

Something most people may not think about is the duration of off gassing of the product. How long will it be emitting volatile vapors, and are they harmful?

- Bryan

Altered Sprinter
06-10-2007, 01:28 AM
Bryan
Your thinking out side of the square at least:thumbup:
Adhesives are not the enemy so to speak, or the materials as a complete cured product.
For instance Plywood two of in the states, Standard Ply wood has a formaldehyde content, this is a known cancer indicator that once installed in an enclosed area will continue to emit a fume for up to 12 to 21 days. there is a product from the US side in Oregon I think! that produces a Eco green friendly product with out the nasty chemicals.
Polyurethane coatings are extremely dangerous to use, and once applied will emit gases fro a similar period, the culprit in a petro based urethane is the solvent , commonly known and used in the painting industry is called Sovlo 150 or S100 not to mention the benzine content which now has a different name by changing the chemical make up I could list each and every one that is used in different products:idunno: .
However breathing masks are not the cure as you are in most parts only breathing a heavy concentration of Carbon Monoxide, this dissipates rapidly from lungs , once you re inhale what used to be called Oxygen :smilewink:
Where the danger lies is the solvents inside of the products that emit a gas for a period of time , do two things the first is the products leave a carbon Disulfide finger print behind it will penetrate every thing in side of the vehicle, to leave behind an invisible cling wrap plastic film combine this with all other chemicals , you have an unknown 'factor' of a chemical cocktail.
What the products do that many folk are not aware of is that one breaths this through your skin that enters your blood supply , Kidneys can only handle so much toxins before the blood supply reacts to a foreign substance and attacks it white and red blood cells become mutant when the radical element is on the loose, oxygen deficiency in your blood stream , starts to effect your inbuilt electrical nervous system and your motor function break down to send the wrong signals, First indicators Dizziness, your on a high and the magic trip begins to woopy land.
the agents are active for a period of two to three weeks in an enclosed area, as temperature and humidity increase, inside of a vehicle the gas emission increase.
Worst case scenario you can become sick, most doctors do not understand the reaction Bells Pausy is an indicator to toxin poisons
Solutions: each product you purchase ask for a MSD and read it with caution Work place health practices work in partnership with responsible managements practices.
Beware a filter mask will not work
Case filters are ineffective by up to 80% when breathing toxic fumes
no filter is 100% effective
Buying flame class filters note wood and chemical are both different, always replace in a sealed plastic container once used they have a limited use by life span.
Keep the vehicle clean between each installation to reduce particle contamination.
Enjoy the experience of a DIY project
CH005 N.pdf (application/pdf Object) (http://www.aiacanada.com/uploads/Government/CH005%20N.pdf)
Richard.

georgetg
06-10-2007, 06:49 AM
...my 140 passenger has factory installed front insulation and rear insulation...anyone know what this material actually looks like? or a published r value?...

scotty,

I also have the "factory installed insulation".

All it is, is 3/4 inch foam rubber (poorly) glued in place.

I does nothing.

I am slowly scraping it off, applying sound deadener mats and insulation blankets (http://www.shadetreeonline.com/insulation/heatshield.htm) over it.

The insulation blankets are made from the same material used in the factory headliner with an added reflective foil blanket.

The sound mats are from fatmat (http://www.fatmat.com/fatmat/bulk/100ft.htm) the guy is very flakey and keeps changing his eBay ID, it took him 1 month from payment to actually shipping the mats.

I have spayed foam in most hard to reach areas, unfortunately not all of the foam cures untill it is heated so you'll have foam coming out of holes a week after spraying it.

I live in Bakersfield and my Sprinter is graphite metallic. We have 60 days on average above 110 in the summer and my foam is solid after a week.

That's real world experience vs some "lab numbers"


Cheers
George

BMA
06-10-2007, 08:31 AM
Looks like that fan for working with isocyanates should be a high capacity exhaust fan with a tube to pull air from inside the Sprinter then exhaust it outdoors. OK, I have that. Single use chemical exposure coveralls, have them and if I've used them up by then I'll buy more. Filter mask, sounds like I use the outside air supply one instead of the cartridge one. I modified a whole head powered filter mask to be connected up with a long hose, and I pull it's input air supply from outside the garage. Yes, I worry about chemical exposure as well as dust exposure. My thoughts now are to keep the exposure as low as sanely possible. My lungs already react badly to dust and the presence of some chemicals. I feel it's best not to add to that list.

When building my house I'd buy materials like plywood, then put them in the hay barn to sit and off gas for awhile, then finally installed them in the house. Most of the supplies for the house sat for a month or more in the hay barn. BTW, the hay barn is now known as the garage.:D All but a couple of bales have been evicted. I kept them for the cats to :snore: on. I joke about having a garage that I can park my house in with room to spare for a few vehicles. In fact I'm sure I could get both tractors, all three pickups, and maybe even a few of the cars and some implements in along with the house, and still not have to move any of the others to get any one out. All I need to get my house in is to widen the garage door and put some wheels under the house. I'd need to make a door 36' wide rather than the 21' it is now, otherwise it is tall enough. At this point the garage is slowly being turned into a shop for working on machinery. One of these days I'll put cement over the whole floor. I have a corner with a 24' x 36' slab in it. The rest is packed dirt for now. Another addition made is some big exhaust fans.:thumbup: I think it is about 5 minutes to completely refresh all the air.:bounce: This is nice in the evening as I can quickly lower the inside temperature to the outside temperature. It also allows me to keep the air fresh while painting or welding.

scotty,

I also have the "factory installed insulation".

All it is, is 3/4 inch foam rubber (poorly) glued in place.

I does nothing.

I am slowly scraping it off, applying sound deadener mats and


Sounds like the factory installed insulation is a no go if you want to do any insulating or soundproofing yourself.

insulation blankets (http://www.shadetreeonline.com/insulation/heatshield.htm)

I find the R-18.3 claim a little hard to believe. The best non high tech insulation I've found is R-7.7 per inch. I can see a reflective layer adding at most R-6 to R-7 for radiant sources of heat only.

I have spayed foam in most hard to reach areas, unfortunately not all of the foam cures untill it is heated so you'll have foam coming out of holes a week after spraying it.


Which type of foam? Brand/product?

I noticed in some of the installation instructions that some mentioned confined spaces were not recommended. I remember one that mentioned you could lightly mist with water to speed curing.

- Bryan

georgetg
06-11-2007, 10:49 PM
Bryan,

I don't buy the R18.3 claim either and to be honest, it's a car, I won't insulate perfectly... but I like the idea of fighting sound and insulating some with one product.

The foam I used it Great Stuff. I used both the larg gap filler and the standard.

I think there is always some uncured product enveloped by cured dry foam, and when the temperature rises that uncured foam expands and cures.

I never had any issues with overfoaming where the body panes bulge out, but I only used foam in structural closed sections.

The only caveat is if you have windows, as the foam will epand and push past the rubber gasket...

Non of this is rockescience...and I don't believe in making insulating your van into a phd type discussion...

YMMV

Cheers
George

P.S.: As for this thread, being healthy and chemical exposure...you eat food 3 times a day everyday...the big picture.

glasseye
07-31-2009, 05:09 AM
Here's a good slide show on sound insulation for a T1N.

http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/index.html


Click "Audio System Photos"
Then "Damping and Barrier Materials"

You get to see a T1N dash dissected.

jimmiejoe
06-11-2013, 01:04 AM
Has anyone used this kit to insulate and sound dampen their vechicle? I am very interested in the idea of getting both Thermal and Acoustic in one installation.

http://www.quietride.com/catalogpdfs/Sprinter_catalog.pdf

treadmill
06-11-2013, 01:27 AM
I had my 2012 Sprinter done a year ago with the foam insulation. I had mine done professionally for $1000. I am very pleased with the outcome. It is alot quieter now and is alot more comfortable in the winter. As I expedite for a living I use this vehicle quite a bit. I also have an Espar D4 installed and only had to use it at 50% once or twice thus past winter when I was in 0F temps. A very good investment IMHO.

oldemettle
06-11-2013, 03:46 PM
I used the Raam audio foil backed dampener and ensolite plus Quiet Car for the wheel wheels and am very happy with the results - thank you Glasseye for your write-ups. The Raam products are easier to install than Dynamat and the pricing is much lower. www.rammaudio.com/autotoyz/speak to Jason 619-300-8265 as he distributes it out of his shop near the Ontario airport in Southern California.

glasseye
06-11-2013, 04:11 PM
Bryan,

... but I like the idea of fighting sound and insulating some with one product.

The trouble is, you DO need different products. Sound insulation requires mass. Thermal insulation requires large volumes of entrained air. ie the opposite of mass.

MillionMileSprinter
06-11-2013, 04:16 PM
The trouble is, you DO need different products. Sound insulation requires mass. Thermal insulation requires large volumes of entrained air. ie the opposite of mass.

After reading about sound and thermal insulation for months, this is the BEST, most concise piece of information I have come across. This explains ALOT. Thank you thank you thank you:bow:

GeorgeRa
06-11-2013, 05:47 PM
The trouble is, you DO need different products. Sound insulation requires mass. Thermal insulation requires large volumes of entrained air. ie the opposite of mass.
This is very correct on low frequency, Thinsulate which entraps a lot of air provides sound insulation above a few hundred Hz at low weight. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSufSevTsZxtUnx2SMY_UevUqe vTSevTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=Thinsulate2008.pdf

What makes Thinsulate different from other insulation fibers is smaller fibers diameter of 15 micron vs 50 micron.

George.

atulin
06-13-2013, 06:53 AM
For people with windows, I founds those to be where I made some big gains. I installed bali midnight double cell window blinds on all of the back windows other than the sliding door and the one permanently covered with a TV. The ones I used are the skylight versions that have a track on the sides that really helps them insulate. I've seen these list at about an R-6 and I can tell you that they have made a huge difference.

Last summer if I was parked in the sun on a 90 degree day my 13500btu roof by itself could hardly keep me at the outside temp but with the blinds and second layer of .5in pink board on the walls it's pretty cool. I still need to figure out something for the sliding door but for now I try to park with it away from the sun. I was thinking about a curtain that would cover the sliding door but I'm thinking now that I'm going to make something with reflectix and magnets that I can just use when I'm going to be parked.

GeorgeRa
06-13-2013, 07:11 AM
Before using a spray-on insulation I would suggest going to www.sprinteraccessories.com or www.swivelsrus.com and look at their insulation kits, Their product can double both the heating and cooling efficiency of your vehicle no matter what the climate you operate in. This insulation material mounts directly to metal surfaces. Mounting directly to the metal skin surface will also provide excellent noise attenuation, cutting levels by more than half and therefore improving general conversation conditions.It is manufactured with peel and stick adhesive backing squares for ease of installation without the mess and fuss of spray adhesives. Packed in pre-cut kits which include all van panels except flooring and bulkheads.

Take a look.

Arigo

I asked a while back for some heat insulation numbers about their product and never heard from them again.

George.

Graphite Dave
06-13-2013, 03:06 PM
I still need to figure out something for the sliding door but for now I try to park with it away from the sun. I was thinking about a curtain that would cover the sliding door but I'm thinking now that I'm going to make something with reflectix and magnets that I can just use when I'm going to be parked.

Search "ortonDIY - privacy/thermal curtains". After several designs what is posted works very well. Use the Reflextix during the winter and just the cloth in warmer weather. Suspect Reflextix would also help in summer in hot climates. I store the window covers vertically at back of van below the rear windows.

sassmatt72
06-18-2013, 03:33 PM
The home depot has class A fire rated mylar bubble wrap insulation at 21$ a roll, I did my whole 140" with 4 rolls, and 3 cans a 77 spray adhesive. wow what a difference, I also drilled out the pop rivets in the aftermarket flooring, replaced them all with nut rivet inserts so floor is now screwed down and removable.