transmission flare shifts between 2nd and 3rd

Just over 20mph when the transmission shifts from 2nd to 3rd gear, the engine revs up as if the transmission is "slipping" instead of going into gear. Transmission then grabs hold and rest of the gears no problem. The dealership says it's internal to the transmission and "may" require a new transmission "soon". Any idea how long I can run it this way? Are there other problems that may cause this that don't require a new transmission? $7000 in repairs for February and now this.

The vehicle is a 2007 turbo deisel.

eb

I take it they changed the fluid and the filter, verified the proper fluid level and used their scan tool to do this




???

-Jon

PS: If so, contact Andy (Dr. A) Bittenbinder: 412-366-6165

jdcaples said:

I take it they changed the fluid and the filter, verified the proper fluid level and used their scan tool to do this

???

-Jon

Click to expand...

Actually, no. I don't really know how they checked it. I've been stuck at a dealership that I don't want to use while I wait for the local mercedes dealership to come on line, so I was more concerned with retaking possession of my vehicle than figuring out how they did a job that I can't verify anyway. I get your point. Thanks. It's probably time for me to see if the mercedes dealership will at least do something like a transmission service.

eb

How many miles do you have on the Sprinter?
History ?

ebsprintin said:

Just over 20mph when the transmission shifts from 2nd to 3rd gear, the engine revs up as if the transmission is "slipping" instead of going into gear.

The dealership says it's internal to the transmission and "may" require a new transmission "soon".

Click to expand...

One of the causes of an rpm 'flare' , specifically a rpm flare during the 2nd-3rd gear shift, is the failure of the overrunning clutch that locks the rear sun gear to the center sun gear.

This one way clutch acts as an adjunct to the K3 clutch and helps optimize the 2-3 gear shift. Doktor A

abittenbinder said:

One of the causes of an rpm 'flare' , specifically a rpm flare during the 2nd-3rd gear shift, is the failure of the overrunning clutch that locks the rear sun gear to the center sun gear.

This one way clutch acts as an adjunct to the K3 clutch and helps optimize the 2-3 gear shift. Doktor A

Click to expand...

Would something like that require component replacement, or wholesale swap of bad transmission to rebuilt transmission?


-Jon

Would a flush and fluid change be of benefit or is the clutch failure a result of
normal wear (significant number of shifting cycles) ?

jdcaples said:

Would something like that require component replacement, or wholesale swap of bad transmission to rebuilt transmission?


-Jon

Click to expand...

Thanks, everyone. I'm getting a second opinion right now. We are looking at the idea of component replacement. It's leaning towards almost exactly what Doktor A said.

eb

ebsprintin said:

Thanks, everyone. I'm getting a second opinion right now. We are looking at the idea of component replacement. It's leaning towards almost exactly what Doktor A said.

eb

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Listen : Fixing the transmission is an alternative , but another would be to overhaul the whole thing (smarter) but... with the mileage ask yourself this: What type of guaranty do I have that this transmission won't fail again, and who is going to pay to fix it again ??? Although fixing it is cheaper, with 220K miles she owes you nothing, wouldn't it be safer knowing that the trans is covered (guaranteed) . Now ask any mechanic if he personally would guarantee that the Transmission won't fail for something else? Fix it , rebuild it, replace it , which is truly safer ????

Carl

sprintguy said:

Listen : Fixing the transmission is an alternative , but another would be to overhaul the whole thing (smarter) but... with the mileage ask yourself this: What type of guaranty do I have that this transmission won't fail again, and who is going to pay to fix it again ??? Although fixing it is cheaper, with 220K miles she owes you nothing, wouldn't it be safer knowing that the trans is covered (guaranteed) . Now ask any mechanic if he personally would guarantee that the Transmission won't fail for something else? Fix it , rebuild it, replace it , which is truly safer ????

Carl

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Believe me I understand your point, but.... Since February of this year, I've rebuilt the front end, replaced the serpentine belt twice, been stranded (requiring a tow), replaced rear axle, replaced the swirl valve, and now the transmission. Replacing the vehicle would be truly safest. To replace the transmission for $11,000 I get two years of service out of the transmission at the current rate. And at 10,000 miles a month, I blow through that warranty in a matter of months. Maybe I can get lucky and only have to fix the transmission two more times during that period. If the transmission is going to be a "remove and replace" part at half the value of the vehicle, that is on the verge of making this a disposable vehicle, and that's not a good thing when we're trying to tout this as a premium commercial vehicle.

eb

ebsprintin said:

Just over 20mph when the transmission shifts from 2nd to 3rd gear, the engine revs up as if the transmission is "slipping" instead of going into gear. Transmission then grabs hold and rest of the gears no problem. The dealership says it's internal to the transmission and "may" require a new transmission "soon". Any idea how long I can run it this way? Are there other problems that may cause this that don't require a new transmission? $7000 in repairs for February and now this.

The vehicle is a 2007 turbo deisel.

eb

Click to expand...

The '03 service manual (same tranny) says this (engine turns up while 2-3 upshift and/or hard 3-2 downshift) could be due to 1) low oil level, 2) oil filter not installed, or 3) free wheeling clutch F2 defective. Fixes for the first two are obvious. Fix for the third is: replace free wheeling clutch F2, hollow shaft, and rear sun gear/inner disc carrier K3.

On the other hand, this reminds me of an ebay listing years ago of an '02 with 560k miles where the tranny had been slipping during a shift since 250k miles.

ebsprintin said:

Believe me I understand your point, but.... Since February of this year, I've rebuilt the front end, replaced the serpentine belt twice, been stranded (requiring a tow), replaced rear axle, replaced the swirl valve, and now the transmission. Replacing the vehicle would be truly safest. To replace the transmission for $11,000 I get two years of service out of the transmission at the current rate. And at 10,000 miles a month, I blow through that warranty in a matter of months. Maybe I can get lucky and only have to fix the transmission two more times during that period. If the transmission is going to be a "remove and replace" part at half the value of the vehicle, that is on the verge of making this a disposable vehicle, and that's not a good thing when we're trying to tout this as a premium commercial vehicle.

eb

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No doubt that fixing the trans is a good thing, but make sure whoever does it knows what they are doing, there are a couple of pitfalls in the NAG transmission. Believe me I have personally seen incorrectly assembled NAG's . Not good !! Personally have the whole trans overhauled (soft overhaul, clutches and seals, and whatever hard part is faulty.)
Good luck , and happy motoring

Carl

I found on the coldest winter mornings that my transmission would flash on the 1-2 shift.

These are the conditions in order for it to happen.

Miss the left turn arrow at the damn light at the bottom of a steep hill.
Sit there on that steep hill waiting for nobody for 2 minutes.
Blast off when I finally get the light.
Throw the van hard left and TADA it flashes during the 1-2 shift.

After that it's fine for the rest of the day.

Here's how I fixed it.

I added 1/2 quart of ATF. Yeah I got the dipstick.... but I have been doing some testing with my Sprinter and didn't have enough oil in there so the sump was too low and it was allowing the transmission pump to suck some air. Anyways, problem solved.

GEARS said:

I found on the coldest winter mornings that my transmission would flash on the 1-2 shift.

These are the conditions in order for it to happen.

Miss the left turn arrow at the damn light at the bottom of a steep hill.
Sit there on that steep hill waiting for nobody for 2 minutes.
Blast off when I finally get the light.
Throw the van hard left and TADA it flashes during the 1-2 shift.

After that it's fine for the rest of the day.

Here's how I fixed it.

I added 1/2 quart of ATF. Yeah I got the dipstick.... but I have been doing some testing with my Sprinter and didn't have enough oil in there so the sump was too low and it was allowing the transmission pump to suck some air. Anyways, problem solved.

Click to expand...

Gears,
Really??? After following along this forum and reading your various posts I do value your opinion. Let's think about this. I've heard the "level is critical within millimeters" stuff before. The filter pickup is at the bottom of the transmission. Unless your fluid level is dangerously low how can it suck air? Even if you are actually a quart over the recommended max level, how much on the dipstick is that?

I can almost concede that the level may make a difference in the back pressure that some controls may see, but even that is a stretch. How much back pressure can a 1/2" overfill of fluid contribute? I know that there are submerged components, but aren't we basically working with a sump which supplies fluid to a pump? I can't imagine that the pump can suck air unless your Sprinter is almost rolled over.

I look forward to any resulting discussion which helps to expand my knowledge of our NAG1 transmission.
vic

ebsprintin said:

Actually, no. I don't really know how they checked it. I've been stuck at a dealership that I don't want to use while I wait for the local mercedes dealership to come on line, so I was more concerned with retaking possession of my vehicle than figuring out how they did a job that I can't verify anyway. I get your point. Thanks. It's probably time for me to see if the mercedes dealership will at least do something like a transmission service.

eb

Click to expand...

I've confirmed that joe the nafta sprinter owner has a great deal of service info available for our Sprinters and more seems to be added every time I look.

I believe your local MB dealership has info available to them to perform the service.

They have access to expertise required to get it done right if it's not available on a computer.

I can't speak to price, but if an untrained info-monger like me can get at everything, including pictures, tools, specifications and step-by-step guidance for most things, they have to have the resources to do it. Will they? That's kind of a dealership decision. Montvale, NJ won't force their hands, if the other threads are correct.

Personally, I think it'd be a bad decision to hide behind the politics. It's a good business decision to support the local Sprinter contingency. The price, in my mind, is the only question.

-Jon

-Jon

jdcaples said:

I've confirmed that joe the nafta sprinter owner has a great deal of service info available for our Sprinters and more seems to be added every time I look.

I believe your local MB dealership has info available to them to perform the service.

They have access to expertise required to get it done right if it's not available on a computer.

I can't speak to price, but if an untrained info-monger like me can get at everything, including pictures, tools, specifications and step-by-step guidance for most things, they have to have the resources to do it. Will they? That's kind of a dealership decision. Montvale, NJ won't force their hands, if the other threads are correct.

Personally, I think it'd be a bad decision to hide behind the politics. It's a good business decision to support the local Sprinter contingency. The price, in my mind, is the only question.

-Jon

-Jon

Click to expand...

My local dealership is one of the ones having to build a new service facility. They have techs, tools, training, but everything is not set up until the new facility is finished.

eb

ebsprintin said:

..........And at 10,000 miles a month, .....

Click to expand...

Aside from repair bills, downtime must be killing you $$-wise. Is having a second Sprinter an option, rotate the stock, drive the sneakers off of one while the other's getting much needed service?
I've got to guess, with that kind of driving, you're not able to tend to maintenance/service at any type of regular intervals?

I know, it doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference but one of the times right after it had flashed I pulled over and stuffed the dipstick in for a check and it has froth on the stick.

I'm guessing that sitting on that steep hill or throwing the van hard left was allowing the oil to slosh enough that the filter was indeed sucking air and making the shift sloppy. I should also note that the torque convertor had been acting loose for the first few miles of the drive.

Again I know the fluid was low but that's another story and I'm working on fixing that too.

Scott_Mc said:

Aside from repair bills, downtime must be killing you $$-wise. Is having a second Sprinter an option, rotate the stock, drive the sneakers off of one while the other's getting much needed service?
I've got to guess, with that kind of driving, you're not able to tend to maintenance/service at any type of regular intervals?

Click to expand...

At this point I'm resorting to sitting here with my fingers in my ears, my eyes closed, and singing loudly. Down time is a killer. The only thing in my favor is that I set myself up for a slow winter of driving, but it worked out that November until January I had my best run of driving all year.

Actually, my maintenance schedule is tight. Keeping to the maintenance schedule is a higher priority than my personal time. I do oil changes myself on the road, on the fly. Fuel filter change I do myself, but I make sure I'm in a place where I won't get stranded if I break one of those little delicate parts and don't have a replacement in my little bag of tricks. Other scheduled maintenance is done at a dealership I'm familiar with wherever I happen to be.

As for a second sprinter, that is sounding like Jaguar ownership. But I won't laugh, some variation of that maybe an option. At the end of this vehicles useful commercial life, instead of trading it in I may keep it as my second vehicle for backup.

eb

wondering if this is the same problem I have. I have had two '04 3500 and this truck is an '08 3500 with 3000 miles on it. Between 20 and 40mph I will have generally three major shutters in rapid succession. Sometimes it is only one but generally more than one and can't duplicated the condition it happens in. Took an Audi mechanic friend out for a long drive and he said for sure transmission and not fuel related. Is this similar to your problem and have you had any luck fixing it? I hate the Dodge dealer here(I keep buy trucks from out of state because they are so bad) and not sure if MB dealer is to new to sprinters to be comfortable with them, but it has to go in.