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Old 10-08-2010, 03:03 AM   #1
gridlok
 
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Default Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

I bought a battery isolator 140 Amp for my 2004 sprinter camper conversion. I have the rear huge AC unit so I believe the car has the massively oversized alternator. I also bought a mounting kit for it with a 50 amp fuse and only 8 AWG wire.

It looks like I screwed up, the manual for the Noco alternator says if I have a 140 amp alternator I should us 2 AWG wire no more than 5' of it . I think the mounting kit is for wimpy 50 amp alternators.

In any case, for mounting I'm wondering where the fuse is supposed to be (between the amp and the isolator I would guess) and how can I tell what amp alternator I have?

The unit is pretty big too and has lots of fins so I'm wondering where is the best place to mount it.

Here is the isolator I bought

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden...6/product.html

This is the mounting kit with the 50 amp fuse

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden...3/product.html

Also there is lots of weird instructions for old GM's and Hondas and such that say the alternator might have some kind of crazy sensing mechinism to see if there is a battery that it is charging and whether it has voltage. Anyone know if the sprinter has any of that stuff on it?

I'm going to have to move the stereo and the aux diesel heater to the deep cycle battery so if anyone has any advice for that I'd love to hear it.

Still on the fence on whether to get a large AGM and lay it on its side or put a Lead acid upright under the pass seat and raise the swivel up another .5inch. My son already can't touch his feet to the floor, has anyone found a Lead acid battery with mounting on the side that will fit in that compartment? AGM's are so wicked expensive.

Seems like there is a lot of space under the hood on the opposite side, if I moved the windshield washer fluid resevour I might be able to squeeze a battery over there. Has anyone tried that?

Any other advice for dual battery mounting setup is welcome, I have a 2000 Amp inverter and I'm doing a bunch of AC wiring too. I need to locate a tiny AC breaker box but I can't find anything that is not really big.

Thanks in advance. Great forum. Very helpful.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:45 AM   #2
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Fact is you selected the wrong isolator for the wrong application as to your alternator type.
The cable are OK , but your fuse selection is wrong ,I apologize for being blunt but life's a bitch if you get it wrong.
Cheap is what you get,for dollars spent: And my friend you just killed your diode pack on your alternator.It will not handle the loading under operation with a large aux battery.

When you pre select an isolator.,the isolator must match your alternators capacity for charging.
The type you require depending on brand is a microprocessor 150A this particular isolator is rated max as to your cables to 180Max or capable of managing your alternator back to 80AMP [NO LESS]
DSC01200(1) (Custom).JPG
DSC01202(1) (Custom).JPG
DSC01203(1) (Custom).JPG
DSC01204(1) (Custom).JPG
DSC01204(1) (Custom).JPG
This is the precursor to a perfectly managed aux battery system in part thereof as to to a total Battery management system that will last you for years,providing you match your mains start deep cycle battery to AGM or Marine deep cycle aux battery.
Please consider this as to multiple aux batteries that are in the 200amp + range that has depreciated in holding volts and or amperage. to 40% below a battery's holding charge.at 13.2 volts measured at 621CCA with a rating of 700CAA and that's just for a lesser 80 to 100 amp battery. No alternator will fully charge a battery under charge from alternator with accessory's running under load such as an air condition system.
200 amp+ battery's on auxiliary, require an alternator to run for 6 hrs for a part charge only. Most in time just burn out the diode or regulators packs and or damage pulleys and clutches regularly on a RV type application.
Blue seas has an excellent range ,But you must match your alternator to the range of an isolator many off, and battery type for maximum recharging of your battery's capacities to charge back to a safe level.
Richard

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Old 10-08-2010, 04:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Overstock will take the return, don't sweat it.

In the USA that Projecta isolator is branded as SUNFORCE:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...nc.-_-82260035
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/pr...&ci_sku=113241

About $70.

Here it is for $50
http://www.batteryjunction.com/sunforce-60113.html

However, the product lists: "The 60113 has a maximum alternator size of 125 amps, and maximum current of 150 amps."



I've been using this one from Blue Sea that is rated at 120 amp continuous,with a 150 amp alternator, also about $70:
http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/387
So far so good, but I am concerned that I will fry it one of these days when my aux battery is on the low side.
But it has a wider range than the SUNFORCE
"Continuous Rating 120 Amps
Intermittent Rating 210 Amps
"

You want to put your fuses in line between the battery post and the isolator, as close to the battery post as possible. One on each battery.

Last edited by Colorado_Al; 10-08-2010 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado_Al View Post
Overstock will take the return, don't sweat it.

In the USA that Projecta isolator is branded as SUNFORCE:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...nc.-_-82260035
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/pr...&ci_sku=113241

About $70.

Here it is for $50
http://www.batteryjunction.com/sunforce-60113.html

However, the product lists: "The 60113 has a maximum alternator size of 125 amps, and maximum current of 150 amps."



I've been using this one from Blue Sea that is rated at 120 amp continuous,with a 150 amp alternator, also about $70:
http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/387
So far so good, but I am concerned that I will fry it one of these days when my aux battery is on the low side.
But it has a wider range than the SUNFORCE
"Continuous Rating 120 Amps
Intermittent Rating 210 Amps
"

You want to put your fuses in line between the battery post and the isolator, as close to the battery post as possible. One on each battery.
Which was why I suggested blue seas as to the ease of selecting a marine application for a higher capacity.
Note:
I did not link the Sunforce model as my variant is one of three that use the same isolator. DBC150TK; This unit has a has Heavy Duty cabling system with a higher rated inline fuse as shown Bluesea 175A between Mains start battery and the rear 220Amp deep cycle marine battery. Iuse both inline and battery terminal fuses sytems.
Specification's state 125A 175A peak max 180A
This unit is a microprocessor and is safe to use on a 80 amp alternator.as per manufactures written guidelines Its charging capacity is 500 mA standby 30mA.

As indicated the aux battery is fully fused between the aux back to an inline 175A fuse. with an immediate kill battery switch at mains start battery, when not required.

Auto charge will kick in to recharge the aux when required, if the mains start battery is holding a voltage of 13.2V this can done manually if required.

Warning the danger on a manual override is dependable! on the state of the mains start battery holding charge. if the voltage drops below 11.8 v at 10.29/2V it will automatically cut off. The ideal state for a mains start battery in good to excellent condition is 13.02V measured at 611CCA with a rating as an example of 700CCA deep cycle mains battery.

This particular Projecta unit is almost 6 years old the alternator is original as is the mains start battery .Last weekend upon doing a full Annalise of the cold crank start alternators condition plus the state of battery.
These were the results>
Battery test: Volts: 13.02V at 600rpm
Measured 621CCA
Ratting 700CAA
Battery type regular.
Starter test cold crank:Normal 10.50V
Cranking Volts comparability for test.
10V+ excellent.
9.5V good.
8v low
7.2v unsatisfactory.
Alternator charging: Volts 14.29
Compatibility of acceptance for a standing battery after 10 minutes,preferably overnight for an accurate test.
12.4V 70%
12.2V 50%
12.1 25%
11,7 or less battery is in a discharged rate.
Rear aux deep cycle marine battery 220 amp standing for three weeks with out a trickle charge via a CteK 2550 seven stage recharge.
State of battery Holding voltage 12.75 v
battery condition excellent.

If one starts the mains engine with voltage on mains start battery showing 13.8V at 1000rpm the microprocessor will cut in to recharge the auxiliary battery, to full charge 13.8 to 14.4 whilst engine is running via an alternator.
The standing rate of a 220 amp battery after engine is turned off ,will register 13.5/8 volts without load , it will settle back to 12.5 to 12.75v which is excellent for any battery.
This is a lay out of my auxiliary system.as it hooks onto a trailer hence the higher capacity cabling of which the projecta happily handles with out complaint.

ptojecta (Custom).jpg
The schematic shoes Anderson plugs for connection to a separate trailer the cables are 6 meters long I use twin 120w solar panels for maintaining a charge if on an extended stay. Aux is recharged from home base mains power 240V with a seven stage CteK 2500 charger it takes 6 hours to recharge that monster if I let it run under 40 percent of of its peak holding volts, if it gets to within the 10V range. I doubt if my alternator would be capable of charging this battery at such a low state.,but it does keep it charged with the projecta on 11V onwards usually inside of an hour with both batteries being maintained.
However I like bluesea units and use many of their components.
richard


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Old 10-08-2010, 04:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altered Sprinter View Post
Which was why I suggested blue seas as to the ease of selecting a marine application for a higher capacity.
I think we're in agreement. I think both systems are workable, with the correct alternator, wiring and fuses. The Projecta/Sunforce or the BlueSea isolators are of similar range and ability. The advantage of the Projecta/Sunforce is that it also has a bypass switch to easily enable starting off of the aux battery if needed.

If you have a large battery bank and the 200 amp alternator you'll need to step up to a higher capacity isolator like the blue sea ML-Series Heavy Duty Automatic Charging Relay #7620 or #7622
http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/388
Both about $150

http://www.electotronics.com/bluesea...50a12vacr.aspx
http://www.electotronics.com/bluesea...aywmanctr.aspx
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Thanks for all the advice.

If I get a microprocesser controlled unit will it trickle drain the battery when the vehicle is off? I heard from a friend of mine that it was a problem. The solid state chargers just use diodes and relays so its not an issue.

I'm only using one aux battery, but I want to use a deep cycle battery and not an identical battery to my starting battery.

The big problem I see with the wiring is that the Aux heater that runs off diesel fuel is currently hooked up to the primary battery. I plan on camping in the winter a lot with the van and after a few hours of running the main battery will drain. I don't know what would be involved with moving the aux heater primary power to the aux battery.

I guess I will buy the sunforce since the override starting feature will be important for me.

What size (Amp) fuses should I put on the battery terminals? Any advice on where to buy fuses and wiring? What guage wire should I use?

I'll return the other isolator to overstock. They are very good about returns. My bad. If this is the worst mistake I make on this conversion I'll be stoked.

Karl
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Hi Karl:
there are two specif Projecta {Sunforce models}
100Amp Charging 77A/100A peak
150Amp Charging 125A/150A peak
150AmpK same
150Amp 125A 175A peak max 180A cabling fuses an heavy duty connectors for terminal assembly plus a comparable in-line fuse, seem to be the way for a higher heat transferee at Charging 500mA Stand by 30mA A standard schematic for an in-house aux set up.
As my unit is the 150 TK the design is for in-house, out-house, Hen-house-trailer combined.

All three have the same charging draw rate 500mA stand by 30ma this matches the aux battery terminal on positive that I have shown.I can down load each specification and schematics to the models if you wish.
The units have over current protection built in, with surge protection for vehicles with electronic ignition systems.Which ensures that the main battery is fully charged before automatically connecting the auxiliary battery in parallel with the mains start deep cycle battery.

Karl bare in mind I'm being careful as to U.S specs versus Australian specification's where we run higher voltage capacity's than the U.S as to inverters converting 240 to 12 v ,we use heavier cabling an d one heck of a lot of monitoring systems to watch out for voltage spikes under load. dam near everything has been fused with voltage readouts. [were crazy but we play safe.]
your mains battery is a deep cycle battery ,as for aux a marine deep cycle battery is comparable as is a AGM battery ! Charging aux depending on how large a capicty rating you put in can cause problems with time as to charging hence alternators fail under continuous loadings A micro processor is the heart of the electronic system, as it is controlled by an electronic chip.
which intelligently monitors both batteries and connects and disconnects the auxiliary battery as appropriate.
The isolator has a manual override,so your always in command.You can even jump start your vehicle in the event that the main battery is flattened it equally has features with built in surge and over current protection for your peace of mind.
These systems are used in Australia as the no 1 preferred aux system on 4x4 outback vehicles they are almost bullet proof, where alternators are rated 75A to !80A Max.
On your aux battery terminal supplied are Cal2 Fuse black and a 30 A fuse orange.

175A connectors Grey Terminals, My 175A Blue seas unit is a precautionary break fuse mounted to the nearest point after the isolator on mains start both aux and mains have cut off switching
all cables are shielded against internal abrasion .
DSC01050 (Custom).JPG
DSC00975(1) (Custom).JPG
Cable wiring no-less than 20 mm2 4B&S 185 amps.
Richard
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Last edited by Altered Sprinter; 10-09-2010 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Instead of an isolator, why not use a continuous duty relay? It's so simple and cheap ($35). Activate relay with D+ alternator signal. Same signal that goes to alt lamp.

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Old 10-09-2010, 03:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

Thats why you guys have so much dam trouble with your sprinters over there,you get what you pay for goodbye 900 dollars , buggered batteries and burnt out diode packs and stuffed up alternator pulleys
LOL
Richard
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Noco Battery Isolator on 2004 sprinter, I'm lost

There's probably well over 10,000 sprinter motor homes built with a relay combining chassis with house battery. I haven't heard of any alternator failures, and word travels fast on the internet.

If you're so certain the relay over stresses the alternator, why not provide an analysis. Almost every motor home uses the relay. We should be seeing thousands of failures.

Cable resistance is a great current limiter.
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