It quit, P1187-001

My 2003 140 SHC 2500 quit last week. After an unknown time, my guys started it, moved it 1/2 mile and it quit again. I had a flatbed take it to the jobsite, where the tools and parts were unloaded and then take the van to my mechanic.

My mechanic, Paul, first check for codes, using the Snap On machine. he found lots of codes and cleared them. Paul then went on a test drive. He drove it at 35-40 mph until the engine warmed up, and then floored the engine. It went into LHM, he pulled off the road, shut off the engine and started it up again. He then drove it 35-40mph and floored the engine. LHM, pulled off the road, shut down, start up. Did it again. and again, and again. He then went to the shop, hooked the Sprinter to the Snap On machine, and found lots of codes. He cleared the codes and went for another test drive. Same results, except when he returned to the shop, Code P1187-001 was there. My book and his says "Rail pressure monitoring, The maximum pressure has been exceeded. " supposedly, the fix is to replace a fuel solenoid, the purpose of the solenoid to regulate the pressure.

Paul was not really comfortable doing things to the fuel pump, so he took it to the local Dodge shop, who only knows less than Paul. They do have the Dodge program which does read codes. After a couple of days giving my van the sunshine treatment, they took it inside the shop and parked it. The mechanic and shop foreman drove the van today. But they did not drive it like Paul did and they had no problem with my van. I think this is the first Sprinter in their shop.

That is my story and I am now depending on you folks to start making suggestions.

My recollection of similar threads is that you need to be careful when getting rail pressure high (or even low} codes. A failure of a component related to low pressure can trigger a high pressure code as the ECM reacts to compensate for the, as only one example... erroneous sensor output.

The usual expert Sprinter suspects mentioned in the following sentence are in no particular order.

I would do some searching using "fuel rail" or maybe "fuel code" with Dennis Lindenengineering, Andy Doktor A, Carl Sprintguy, etc. as member names. You will likely find some helpful information.

vic

My first checks if getting LHM only during hard acceleration like that would be all the air hoses, check for splits, loose hose clips etc. Am I right in thinking no turbo resonator on the '03?
Did you/garage check for these first before settling on the fuel rail code as the problem?
(I appreciate your guys may not have reported it to you the same way as the garage did....)

Did any of the many codes that were cleared and ignored try to point to Turbo/MAF/MAP etc. ? I would expect a bunch of these as a symptom of an air leak at high boost.
I wonder if the fuel rail pressure could be exceeded temporarily as the engine management shuts down the injectors as a result of detecting insufficient air flow?

Of course it may be the fuel rail pressure, I would just try to take into account the physical symptoms and do the cheap checks first based on other problems with similar symptoms....

Good luck!

Boater said:

...

Did any of the many codes that were cleared and ignored try to point to Turbo/MAF/MAP etc. ? I would expect a bunch of these as a symptom of an air leak at high boost.
...

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Good point about all the codes.

I've had situations where the initial codes were critical. It is important to log all the codes before clearing them. That is a danger with using a generic scan tool to clear the DTC's. It may not reveall all the codes and then clear some you never saw.

The one time which I've had an LHM event traced to the O2 sensor. I initially got one O2 sensor related code. After clearing all the codes I still got the LHM returning, but never saw another O2 code ever even though the O2 sensor was still bad.

Another time a bad wheel sensor tone ring set a code for the correct wheel, but also triggered a bunch of other codes. Fortunately I knew the tone ring was suspect so it wasn't quite as confusing as it could have been.

Going back over the list of initial codes may be worthwhile.

vic

I will start with the search by names and problem. I will probably go to the Dodge shop and drive the van myself. I will post any findings here.

I went to Dodge and took my van for a drive. Not a problem until I got to 70 in 4th, 4100 RPM. The computer shut down the van. Started up easily. Next try, shut down @ 4100 in 1st. It would not restart. I finally called Dodge, to see if they had a tow truck or flatbed. They did not, but sent a small Dodge pu with a mechanic and code reader. Except, the code reader did not read any codes, the screen was black. So I tried to start the engine, it did. I drove it to Paul's, and the mechanic used their Snap On reader, got 2 codes. P 1187-01 and another code for bad # 4 glow plug. I drove to the Dodge shop and was told their reader did not read Sprinters. I told them to replace the solenoid, and save the old part for me. I am not impressed with the Dodge Boys. After they replace the part, I will try to make the van shut down again.

Doug.....
4100 RPM.....Yeah....It shuts down @ 4100 RPM for sure.....that's 100 RPM PAST the 4000 RPM rev limiter.
It was designed so that you cannot exceed ~4000-4200 RPM.
Why do you persist in taking your Sprinter to a DODGE Dealer.....Dodge just sold them, they have nothing whatsoever to do with
the design of the Sprinter.
If you really want the whole story on what's going on with your Sprinter, take it to an authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter dealer, where they have direct links to both Daimler Vans LLC Engineering, and Mercedes Benz Sprinter Engineering in Germany.
They also have the correct MB SDS diagnostic systems to fully diagnose Sprinters.
Your Dodge dealer and your local independent shop with the Snap-On machine cannot do the full diagnosis.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Hi there,
Only yesterday I had a similar problem and it also triggered some 'non related' codes. It turned to be the camshaft sensor on the top of the rocker cover. It started fine from cold intermittently, others not (usually when warm) after a short while it would trigger LHM. Code reads were inconsistent and not definitive. I swapped the cam sensor and it cured the problem. $30 fix. Not that this is sure to be your problem but these sensors do have issues as they run in some pretty extreme temperature range - stone cold to baking hot. They can go intermittent in not providing the correct pulse count (incorrect frequency) or output level (No camshaft signal). Just as a note sometimes it triggered a EDC lamp others it would not.

Might be worth a look.

All the best
Steve

You did say shutdown, right?

The T1N ECM limits the rpm to 4200 max under power. It is not normal for that to cause a complete engine shutdown. That would be a dangerous design feature.

vic

Aqua Puttana said:

You did say shutdown, right?

The T1N ECM limits the rpm to 4200 max under power. It is not normal for that to cause a complete engine shutdown. That would be a dangerous design feature.

vic

Click to expand...

Yes, complete shutdown. That was last week, to date I have not herd anything about my van. Time to call the Dodge boys.

Douglas Hicks said:

Yes, complete shutdown. That was last week, to date I have not herd anything about my van. Time to call the Dodge boys.

Click to expand...

You say that you're not impressed with the Dodge boys, yet you want to let them try to diagnose it? Why not take it to a MB Sprinter dealer?

The closest dealer is 135 east, 160 miles NW or 300 miles west. The Dodge shop installed a new solenoid. It worked until I sent the van 150 miles west for a job. Everything was good until it went up Cabbage Hill. The temp was about 95°F. It stopped. I sent a Dodge pu with tow chains to drag it up Cabbage Hill. It ran fine the rest of the way home, even up Ladd Canyon. The independent shop installed a new fuel filter. So far, so good. Next trip out of town, we are taking my Sprinter. I may sent Roy to Pendleton on a warm day, just to see if the filter cured the problem.

Douglas it is the Cam sensor.
I have an 05. it is about 10years old with 85K, in Florida. I am changing the sensor one by one.

nescosmo,,
After you replace maybe ~$2,000 worth of "sensors" and it's still not repaired.....then what?
Tow it to an authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter dealer....have them do the full MB SDS diagnosis for <~$200....then you will know what
the problem is, and if you like, they can get the part and put your Sprinter back on the road.
Roger

Dauglas it is the Can sensor.
I have an 05. it is about 10years old with 85K, in Florida. I am changing the sensor one by one.

sailquik said:

nescosmo,,
After you replace maybe ~$2,000 worth of "sensors" and it's still not repaired.....then what?
Tow it to an authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter dealer....have them do the full MB SDS diagnosis for <~$200....then you will know what
the problem is, and if you like, they can get the part and put your Sprinter back on the road.
Roger

Click to expand...

Roger
You appear to be a strong opponent to the shot gun approach to fixing an auto problem --Don't you realize this is bad for the parts business and the auto repair business as a whole!--shame on you!
Take care
Dennis

Dennis,
When my lap top computer begins to malfunction...I take it to an IT professional to have it analyzed and repaired.
If my Sprinter ever malfunctions.....I'll take it to an authorized MB Sprinter dealer or a full service (with near factory level diagnostics) independent shop like yours and have it analyzed and repaired.
When the Navy has an issue with the mechanical aspects of their aircraft landing systems, they call me as that's what I specialize in.
I know, what I know, and I know....enough...to know when I don't know!
We are almost all specialists at something, mechanical anything Sprinter I can handle.....electronics/engine management systems....way out of my area of expertise!
If it needs to be measured with micrometers/dial indicators/and the like (mechanical measurements)...I can handle that because I can actually see what the measurement is and feel the motion (gear lash/ bearing adjustments/and the like).....when it comes to electrons/signals moving through wires and chips (things I can't see or feel that drive oscilloscopes; meters; and electronics test setups, I look for an expert who has the best diagnostics test equipment and knows how to use them!
Cheers,
Roger

Guys
I have been following this thread with some interest and it highlights the issue of taking the extracted code as a gospel source of the problem or fault. Yes a good scanner gives you a road map to focus in on the problem but it can down right lie or run you up the garden path.

Frankly this is where you need training and knowledge plus experience of what you are working on. Sometimes the code can lie but the underlying symptoms cause the lie, like a mechanical defect! Its called base lining the engine

This doesn't come easy and that is why auto mechs and techs either get it or they don't--every so often they become just shot gunning parts fitters, not top gun techs.

So here's case study.
A 2004 Dodge Sprinter 453,000 mls recorded with black smoke issues and lower than normal power output plus CEL on with two codes indicating air intake pressure signal too high and too low. I used Snappy to extract the codes.
I also looked the turbo blow pressure & recorded 11.4 psi on full throttle climbing a steep grade. Should be more like 20psi minimum but with faults I could understand the reading.
So after the test run back to the shop. Wrench/Sherlock Holmes tyme .

Numbers on both the air pressure sensor (top cover of air filter) and the boost pressure sensor have been upgraded and in any case the numbers don't jive with my records.
Call the dealer parts sales with the vin # and yes sensors are incorrect for that model year and have been superseded three times anyway! Install the latest and greatest.
Clean out the air filter box dead zone with a vacuum cleaner and check the A/F good recently changed by the owner/operator. (Question why doesn't anyone ever vacuum out these air filter boxes??)
Smoke the entire intake for leaks--none found, clear codes take it for a thrash up the hill.
No codes but blow pressure down to around 16 psi tops with slight black smoke whisper.
Customer is happy CEL lights are out van working --not my best job but customer is paying the bill. Guy leaves with a note on the RO/JC/ billing turbo down on delivery pressure customer accepts as is!

Two weeks and 1500miles later, its back, same faults with same CEL codes and no power with black smoke!
This tyme its get down AND dirty with this thing.
Knowing that Tin Sprinter wiring can be bad I start with sensor signalling.
At the air cleaner pressure sensor socket is there a solid ground KOEO --confirm yes is there a 5 volt reference signal--confirmed yes re-connect and back probe the middle wire is there an output? --Yes 3 volts. Sensor seems to work--fire it up!-- yes there is a change in volts--sensor is working.
Do the same at the boost pressure sensor and I get 1 volt output KOEO--fire it up No change with KOER still the same--OK sensor stuffed or NO BLOW pressure???
I can hear the turbo spooling up but my Snappy scanner shows air pressure defect at the air cleaner.
OK reach for Autologic it shows the same fault but a defect on MAP /blow pressure output in data stream --the sensor ain't doing dick!. In short in live data the turbo isn't delivering the goods but also I have a no code defect here!

OK remove the flex turbo hose from the jointer on the radiator core support and rev the engine
NO BLOW appreciable Pressure. OK remove the hose at the other end--yes pressure--conclusion the intercooler is stuffed. OK change it and re-connect clear codes and test.
Yes no codes but the thing still doesn't deliver the goods and still whispers of black smoke.
Autologic scanner shows that in actual live data and won't deliver more than 17 psi.
No codes are shown!
So at this stage I concluded that the turbo was stalling due to the intercooler being plugged up and the developed pressure differences were being felt in the air cleaner box throwing the crazy codes. However nothing wrong with the sensor its just giving out a signal that the PCM can't agree with hence the code fault

Now this is where it get really interesting!
Not convinced he needed a turbo I grabbed a re-con turbo recently removed from similar model that had just melted its pistons at 125K. The customer had recently had thsi turbo installed and then the engine went bang!

Swapping out turbos it was worse the blow pressure was so low it threw a code and the engine black smoked like freight train.

So on went new turbo and well on test with 24 psi its "hold me back son!!!"
It was like having a team of eight at full furious gallop up I/70 at 80 mph and no smoke romping passing everyone--Whatta van!

So conclusion is in order
A code is not always the root cause of the problem.
You must always base line the engine if the fault is difficult to fix, a mechanical defect might easily be the root cause throwing you a curve ball.

Having a scanner that gives live data if almost de-rigor to trace some faults/conditions.

Learn how to read sensors with a DVOM/Oscilloscope.
Avoid dubious re-con items like turbos, they may be cheap but can cause an expensive engine failure.
Lastly the repair was effected without the need to punch out the CAT brick as suggested in this thread!
It may comes as surprise that the exhaust system needs a slight back pressure for rapid turbine spool up and reduced turbo lag/delay.
Ford/Navistar has an PCM modulated electronic gate valve aft of the turbo to improve turbo spool up times. MB does it by precise gas flow through the exhaust system.
Finally I am still of the opinion for what its worth that MB still makes a fine product. No need to throw hands in the air!
Dennis

The above just proves, there is no substitute for experience...real experience. Some "techs" are simply parts switchers/wrench turners. Good techs, (i still prefer to call them mechanics) have an inate understnding of how things work, or should work, and have a good intuition on what and whee to chase down, and what and where are likely to be the false clues.

It also helps when one has vast experience on the vehicle in question. My big worry is my local dealer may have great techs, but they have only been working on Sprinters a couple of years, so they don't have the vast basket of ingrained knowledge.

Thanks Dennis, (And Dr.A, Wayne, and others) who really seem to know thier stuff...not just Sprinters!

Icarus

sailquik said:

nescosmo,,
After you replace maybe ~$2,000 worth of "sensors" and it's still not repaired.....then what?
Tow it to an authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter dealer....have them do the full MB SDS diagnosis for <~$200....then you will know what
the problem is, and if you like, they can get the part and put your Sprinter back on the road.
Roger

Click to expand...

maybe you are right but my sprinter stop dead in the spress way and I tow it to the dealer. at 3 pm on friday and the tech took it and said that it will take a day for him the fix it.
next day it was fix and told me that a wire by the ecm was rob and made a electrical short.
Well it cost me 400.00 dollars.
3 days later the samething happen at about 50 miles away from the dealer. I was mad; there was a mikei dee bought a coke and drink it thinking about the situation. I check all the fuses and found fuse # 17 blown. replace the fuse and went home. found out that the fuse took care of the egr valve and part of the ecu. check the egr valve and it was not buzzing a day later I had a mil and now I have to replaced the egr valve. that is very expensive. and the dealer rob me 400 dollars. etc.etc.etc that is why Im going to change all of the near by sensor one by one. the van is almost 10 yeras old.