Sprinter Performance Upgrades

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
If you're considering a product to make adjustments to anything remotely impacts fuel injection, I'd like to play a game.

Please write down how you think your Sprinter's fuel injectors work.... just jot down your understanding.... high level stuff like "this is what a fuel injector does...."

Then write down how you understand a "chip" or a "programmer" or might improve the situation as far as you're concerned....

Then read this: View attachment NAFTA-NCV3-Fuel-Injection-Description-ChryslerServiceInfo.pdf

Now looking at what you wrote down, and after having read that PDF.... what are your thoughts?

-Jon
 
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LivingtheDream

2009 LTV Serenity
thanks Jon, appreciate the details. There is a great deal going on....and thus a great deal of opportunity for risk in making changes. However, technology today has a very good grasp in most cases as to how this works from my experience, but again as disclosed, that is with a gasoline engine. My chip program in the Cadillac lowered the operating temperature, increased the redline, increased maximum speed, increased the 'lope' of my cam at idle (cause its KOOL :rad:) and tuned the engine to take advantage of my 3" B&B full dual cat exhaust system.

Bikergar, if you want a new millenium hot rod.. the CTS-V is for you!!!! I am letting go of my 05 LS6 (for sale) and moving to the 010 550 hp model. As for the Sprinter, I dont expect to take it to the track, except to haul my car there. I am fine with the performance of my 2500 08 Pleasure Way conversion, but now moving to the 3500 Freedom II I have gained weight. The only place where I really look for a performance boost is trying to pass on 2 lane highways. We try to use US Highways more than interstates and with all those slowpoke RV's (ha ha ha) out there, the Sprinter wants to get past them but just does not have the acceleration boost to make the pass decision easy (yes I am spoiled by AMERICAN V8's :thumbup:).

Again, these forums are the best and all inputs have value.... or fun in them...

Thank you,

LivingtheDream
Turn the Key and Smile
 

SYCO GT

New member
Bikergar, if you want a new millenium hot rod.. the CTS-V is for you!!!! I am letting go of my 05 LS6 (for sale) and moving to the 010 550 hp model. (yes I am spoiled by AMERICAN V8's :thumbup:).

LivingtheDream
Turn the Key and Smile
The new CTS-V is very impressive. Everyone is reporting great numbers with the stock motor and dynographs. Modded motors also. I watched a CTS-V do a nice quarter mile at Lonestar Motorsports in Sealy, Texas last weekend.

Here is the pre-run tire warm up...

 

gary 32

07 ncv3 pv
Motor Trend::popcorn:
If there's one place where the Sprinter let us down, it's the engine. In most day-to-day situations, the 3.0-liter V-6 turbodiesel is sufficiently powerful to get the job done, but attack even the smallest incline and you feel the power disappear.

Even with the van loaded to a third of its maximum payload, extended hillclimbs, such as those on the way out of Los Angeles, had the Sprinter working hard to maintain freeway speeds with the pedal on the floor. Loaded to the hilt, the Sprinter's 154 horses and 280 pound-feet of torque would've had us crawling with the big-rigs over every incline.
 

kmessinger

Active member
Motor Trend::popcorn:
If there's one place where the Sprinter let us down, it's the engine. In most day-to-day situations, the 3.0-liter V-6 turbodiesel is sufficiently powerful to get the job done, but attack even the smallest incline and you feel the power disappear.

Even with the van loaded to a third of its maximum payload, extended hillclimbs, such as those on the way out of Los Angeles, had the Sprinter working hard to maintain freeway speeds with the pedal on the floor. Loaded to the hilt, the Sprinter's 154 horses and 280 pound-feet of torque would've had us crawling with the big-rigs over every incline.
I disagree with Motor Trend and don't think they actually drove a loaded Sprinter. My Sprinter is always loaded and weighs in not less than 8k. I have not had any problem maintaining a speed reasonable for a 4-ton truck. Maybe not as fast as some cars but most definitely not crawling with the big-rigs over every incline. I have been up and down the Grapevine with no crawling noted.:smilewink:

Regards,

Keith
 

bikergar

Active member
Motor Trend::popcorn:
If there's one place where the Sprinter let us down, it's the engine. In most day-to-day situations, the 3.0-liter V-6 turbodiesel is sufficiently powerful to get the job done, but attack even the smallest incline and you feel the power disappear.

Even with the van loaded to a third of its maximum payload, extended hillclimbs, such as those on the way out of Los Angeles, had the Sprinter working hard to maintain freeway speeds with the pedal on the floor. Loaded to the hilt, the Sprinter's 154 horses and 280 pound-feet of torque would've had us crawling with the big-rigs over every incline.
With all due respect to Motor Trend...I must have an exceptional Sprinter...:thumbup:

gary
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Motor Trend::popcorn:
If there's one place where the Sprinter let us down, it's the engine. In most day-to-day situations, the 3.0-liter V-6 turbodiesel is sufficiently powerful to get the job done, but attack even the smallest incline and you feel the power disappear.

Even with the van loaded to a third of its maximum payload, extended hillclimbs, such as those on the way out of Los Angeles, had the Sprinter working hard to maintain freeway speeds with the pedal on the floor. Loaded to the hilt, the Sprinter's 154 horses and 280 pound-feet of torque would've had us crawling with the big-rigs over every incline.
Where did they get that van? It should go back into the shop.
Even though i don't think i usually load mine much, just the RV stuff, camping gear, boat and craft booth stuff, i have never had it drive like they describe. My Vanda doesn't know it's supposed to crawl over hills. It just GOES! and never looks back at who it's passed.

Jef
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
I didn't read the article, but if the reviewer went from a high-powered sports car directly to a Sprinter, w/o getting into a couple of Ford or Chev 1500s first..... if the reviewer failed to realize that he's driving a 6000 lbs vehicle and not a 2500 lbs sedan, I could see how the performance might seem sluggish.... especially if cornering and braking seemed in line with a 2500 lbs sports car.

-Jon
 
If you're considering a product to make adjustments to anything remotely impacts fuel injection, I'd like to play a game.

Please write down how you think your Sprinter's fuel injectors work.... just jot down your understanding.... high level stuff like "this is what a fuel injector does...."

Then write down how you understand a "chip" or a "programmer" or might improve the situation as far as you're concerned....

Then read this: View attachment 17972

Now looking at what you wrote down, and after having read that PDF.... what are your thoughts?

-Jon
Hey relax Jon, nobody is shoving chips or programmers down anyones throat. Companies need hardware to sell you or else most people wont bite.
What I was eluding to is how communities of car enthusiasts have dismantled most of the popular ecus and offer software for reading the ecu maps and altering engine perameters often times for free or a small donation. Even the Nissan GTR which was said to have an "uncrackable" ecu was cracked before they even hit US shores (by buying a JDM version and shipping it here). I doubt if MB put any roadblocks into their ecu.
Some of these guys (Mitsubishi, Subaru, NIssan, Mazda,etc. enthusiasts) are running dual maps on the stock ecu, one for pump fuel, and one for E85, with a switch on the dash to toggle between the maps based on availability. They also run ethanol content anylyzers to monitor the E85 because of differences in ethanol content from winter to summer blend requires a modification to the map, all on the stock ecu. Valet modes, gear dependant boost (great for different driving habits city vs highway), raised speed limiters, you name it its being done.
Think about it, you give a "tuner" $150 for a map, download it to your ecu. Drive and log the engines outputs and send the logs to your tuner, he sends a modified map back notating changes made (and you learn something about what he is doing) and you download to the ecu using your laptop and a purchased cable.
This is far better than a chips perameters that were set with a high safety margin for unknown variables (just like the OEM maps) like fuel type, loads, etc. etc.
It is widely known on this forum that the fuel we have in the US isnt ideal for the motor right? Why not modify the maps to run most efficiently on our fuel?
The sites beloved A.bittender is modifying maps on the torque converter, its a complicated thing (like diesel injectors), and was designed by MB, what could he possibly do to make it better? :)

Sure tuning isnt for everybody, and no we dont have what we need (tuners or software)to do it right now hence wishing we could get a few ecu engineers over here/interested to dismantle the thing. Diesel engine tuning, is diesel engine tuning, from that point on no matter how complicated the systems are its all just run by a computer.

Based on bikergars review I think I COULD be happy with the power. But not everyone has the same review as him.
I still would like a "scramble boost" button that gives me the 392ftlbs the poster above has with his Renntech for a limiited time frame (120 sec?) and only if certain conditions are met (oil temp, trans temp, etc.), besides running as effieciently and as CLEANLY as I can on a daily basis. Almost all cars come pig rich from the factory and from what I have seen of the EGR problems on these the Sprinter is no exception. Why not clean it up?
I think there is a big market for this, if you could save a fleet of vehicles like FEdex just 2 miles/gallon/vehicle worldwide by being tuned for the fuel in its particular country?
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
I didn't mean to come off as uptight. I just wanted to make certain that everyone knew the gravity of an endevor to adjust the parameters that govern - in this case, the ECM ECU's injection behavior.

I too wish more tuner engineers were involved in the Sprinter enthusiast movement (such as it is)....

However, I disagree with the market being there to support the R&D. Even with contributions like you cite ($150 here, a log there), with sales numbers published , the number of Sprinters in the NAFTA region over the course of the last 7years, no one besides a passionate enthusiast like Andy Bittenbinder, will engage.

Andy's certainly not doing what he's doing to grow a business into an empire.... most engineers that are capable of that kind of R&D have to a day job at a company pay their mortgages and send ther kids to school in clothes....

I just don't see a business case to support major, Sprinter-specific R&D.... I don't see a return on the investment in R&D.... and general devices, aren't something I'm personally interested in unless backed by w/o a quanitified study and Sprinter engine/tranny/drive train tear-down to review the impact.


-Jon
 

gary 32

07 ncv3 pv
I don't see anyone uptight, just a little discussion.

The Sprinter tune I purchased is a detuned version of a stock Mercedes GL320 cdi map. Mercedes tunes the same exact power plant to 224 hp and 376 ft lbs for the 2007 GL 320 cdi, (I own one), with a few tweaks and a little detune(!) you arrive @ 190hp and 390 ft lbs. and my Sprinter runs better in every way.

Jon is right the cost of a tune is based on the number of tunes sold and the longevity of other drive line components is based on the operator's driving.

Motor trend likes the Sprinter, but they too would need a tune to own it, what's wrong with that?
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Gary,

I'm just curious:

The H44 recall did not apply to any other MB products in the NAFTA region. The changes are published, but after having my ECM flashed per the recall, my EGR valve continues to "sing," 90 seconds after shutdown. Before that, it "sang" for about 20 seocnds.

Did your tuning gizmo change that; did it impact the length of time your EGR valve cleans itself after shutdown?


-Jon

PS: I understand the realtime mapping parameters might be the only thing that changed, but I wanted to confirm it doesn't "undo" the H44, post shutdown activity.
 

gary 32

07 ncv3 pv
Jon,
My wife's GL got a version of H44 from Mercedes, no noticeable change.

A tune is simply an ecu flash no gadgets, just a different map and as I have posted here before most tunes have some egr defeat written in. Never had any egr problems of any kind with my Sprinter.

I sent my recall notice backed as properly addressed.

Tuning gizmo sounds a little up tight.:smirk:
 

dukepilot

Custom Spooling USA
Jon, I understand your concerns about modifying ECU parameters. I don't want to turn my engine into a hunk of molten aluminum. One reason why I got the Diesel Power module was that it is TUV and E-1 Certified. Among other things, these certifications mean that the product does not damage or conflict with any other component on the vehicle and that emissions standards are similar to original mfg. standards. Hopefully, these certifications are not marketing BS. I specifically asked John at the Sprinter Store whether the module affects the H44 reflash and the answer was that the module does not have any effect on that.
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
John Bendit does his homework. That was never a question in my mind.

I'm not against performance upgrades. I've modified my Sprinter, but not to move faster.... to last longer (is my hope).

I just think some consumers and many vendors don't perform due diligence.

I posted "how NCV3 fuel injection works," as a call to remember that an NCV3 is not like "any other diesel engine."

If vendor tells you otherwise, tells you their single product boosts performance for everything, it's time to ask some tough questions.

I just wanted everyone to know the risks with some vendors who may be generalizing a bit too much with regards to what will happen with their product and your Sprinter.

If someone can't tell you that they designed their product to work with a system that may fire an injector 250 times a second, I'd ask for some more information about why it's a good idea to apply that product to my Sprinter.

That's all.

-Jon
 

gary 32

07 ncv3 pv
I just don't see a business case to support major, Sprinter-specific R&D.... I don't see a return on the investment in R&D.... and general devices, aren't something I'm personally interested in unless backed by w/o a quanitified study and Sprinter engine/tranny/drive train tear-down to review the impact.

John Bendit does his homework. That was never a question in my mind.
I'm not against performance upgrades. I've modified my Sprinter, but not to move faster.... to last longer (is my hope).
I just think some consumers and many vendors don't perform due diligence.
I posted "how NCV3 fuel injection works," as a call to remember that an NCV3 is not like "any other diesel engine."
If vendor tells you otherwise, tells you their single product boosts performance for everything, it's time to ask some tough questions.
I just wanted everyone to know the risks with some vendors who may be generalizing a bit too much with regards to what will happen with their product and your Sprinter.
If someone can't tell you that they designed their product to work with a system that may fire an injector 250 times a second, I'd ask for some more information about why it's a good idea to apply that product to my Sprinter.
That's all.

-Jon
OK Jon,

I understand how you feel, I just have no self control.

Everyone should apply careful thought. Some performance mods are a farce, how much time can possibly go into a $150 tune, or a tuning box with a single resistor for 100.00 on ebay.
Due diligence is a start, finding good products with craftsmen behind them with real results is next, monitoring driveline operations more carefully and upping the fluid changes for more stress and blow by, can't hurt.

Next time you are in Los Angeles, you are invited to come drive my Sprinter. If this results in some ridiculous smile that won't go away I won't tell.

Best Regards. Gary
 

72chevy4x4

Well-known member
Gary, I'm a little fuzzy on what I read above...did you say the wife's GL320 is the same engine as our sprinter 3.0 with the difference of 0.2L? Did the altered GL map get loaded into a stock sprinter eccu or was the GL eccu installed into the sprinter?
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
For reference, my engine is an OM642.993. It has a different EGR system from all other OM642s listed in epc.startekinfo.com. epc.startekinfo.com is MBUSA, LLC's electronic parts catalog.

What OM642 is in the GL320?

-Jon

PS: Here are all 25 of the OM642s that the US MB electronic parts catalog "knows about" today.... and no, there is no Sprinter information available right now. I don't know which one is in the GL, but I do know that the EGR system between the 642993 is different from all 24 others.
 

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GEARS

2005 140WB standard roof
So I had a change of thought here....

After racing around in my big van all weekend I have decided that I probably don't need to make my Sprinter into some race van.

I mean it'll spook just about 90% of the unsuspecting vehicles in the lane next to me when leaving from a traffic light and they'll have to work at it to get past me.... unless they're driving something that is obviously going to whoop the Sprinter's ass and I pick & choose my battles wisely.:smirk:

It's got plenty of get up and go from 60 to the speed limiter and it's plenty fast enough for me to get a ticket. Sure I'd like it to go faster, I mean who wouldn't want to see if it could pull all the way to the rev-limiter, but it's good enough the way that it is. :thumbup:
 

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