Shower Remodel Questions

sikwan

06 Tin Can
Since this is the "Off Topic" section and I wanted to make everyone feel welcome to post topics not related to Sprinters, I thought I'd start one since there might be some experts lurking. :smilewink:

I removed most of the tiling, cement board, and some of the sheetrock.

Here's the shower that I'm remodeling.
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The close up of the old stuff. Yellow tiles and brown vinyl. :thumbdown:
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The galvanized piping that I need to replace since I'm in there.
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The shower pan is being replace with a Swanstone version in the same size.
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The unused space above the shower.
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Above, I want to get rid of the space above the old shower and just wall tile up to the ceiling.

My question revolves around the green sheetrock or greenboard. I've read that greenboard is used behind toilets, sinks, etc. However, they're not used in shower or tub installations or at least some have not recommended it. :thinking: It has a more water resistant membrane than the regular stuff, yet they don't use it? :idunno:

I'll be installing sheetrock to the walls and ceilings, adding cement board (Hardibacker) to the walls, and tiling over the cement board. Here are my dilemmas...

1. If I use greenboard I will have to cut out the ceiling (probably the regular stuff), replace it with greenboard. Since greenboard is heavier, I have to make sure to mount it with 12 inch centers. I think my joists are 16 inches apart.

2. What is your opinion on using greenboard behind cement board in shower installations?

Should I just use the regular stuff and leave the ceiling alone? Leaving the ceiling alone would probably be the easiest. I'm not tiling the ceiling but just using regular waterproof paint and making sure it is sealed probably.

I almost forgot, I'll be adding a flush mounted water resistant light above the shower.

Thanks,
Seek
 

Don Horner

2012 Unity IB
I definitely agree with your use of Hardibacker under the tile. With the Hardi, I don't think you'll need to worry about green board. If you were going to tile directly onto the sheetrock, it should definitely be green board.

As for the ceiling, you will probably be able to get away without green board, as it is highly unlikely any appreciable amount of water will get up there or stay there long enough to do any damage, especially if you paint it well.

Looks like a fun project.
 
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Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Gee Seek your a glutton for punishment :bash:
Be careful with that old vinyl looks like it's asbestos backed.
Now whens! The next reno update?:popcorn:
Richard.
 

sikwan

06 Tin Can
Thanks Don for the tips. :thumbup:

Thanks Richard on the heads up. It doesn't look like the vinyl has asbestos.

Seek
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Thanks Don for the tips. :thumbup:

Thanks Richard on the heads up. It doesn't look like the vinyl has asbestos.

Seek
Hello Seek
Mate, Just a tip, on renovations as to health and safety practices.
Wear a good filtered mask, if your cutting into chip board, particle board like on an old cabinet the particle board contains chemicial based adhesives, which remain active for the life of the product, which have a compisote of Formaldahyde. even the latest particle type boards such as MBF have full blown castergenics in the dust waste if free hand cut, use vacumme assist tools when cutting.
Vinyl if 15 to 20 years old it's a minerial backed product, which contains up to 90% asbestos, you can tell if it has a hard stiff off white backing that flakes just like the plaster sheet, as it is reinforced with paper backing, if the vinyl is hard and not flexiable it contains asbestos! It is stable if removed via a scraping method and kept vacummed whilst removing, (DO NOT SAND THE BACKING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES) special tools and saftey precautions are required, the dust is a Killer.
Even some of the old flooring adhesives are known to have castergenic links, when reactivated, via sanding tecniques.
Just looking out for your health and saftey Zeek:D
Richard
 

sikwan

06 Tin Can
Hey Richard: :bow:

Thanks again. You might be right about this and it's freaking me out. I do wear a good quality dust mask any time I'm working around the home especially on this project, so I'm going to have to do more research on this, even send in a sample to be tested ($20).

I really hope you're wrong about this. :cry:

Seek
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Seek show me a pic of the viny backing I can tell the from the look of it, As I have been involved in arbitration on castergenic products for years if it has a stiff paper look backing it is asbestos,It has the same peel away suface as the plaster sheet . I can advise as to removal with minimal hassels of removal
Richard.
PS It's an issue with younger folk or if you have a weak DNA Link , young children, or a wife in child, the small fibres are like wood when freely floating in the air once lodged in your lungs it's like a barbed hook, it can not rot or breakdown your imune system can't get rid f it, twenty years down the track and the health issues become a major problem
Richard
PS: At the front base of the old shower unit the viny is showing where it is starting to lift awy from the base, it's also cracked, or damaged at the next point below, get a pair of pliers and pull it down wards untill it breaks off , this should expose a clear white suface, I'm hopeing it will break in a layered format where the clear PVC surface will seperate from the photographic print that supports the backing material.
Richard
 
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sikwan

06 Tin Can
Big picture.
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Close up.
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I've seen asbestos before, but then not in tile format. I wouldn't think you could see them. There's a local place that does tests for $35.

If you need better pictures, let me know.

Thanks again Richard,
Seek
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Hello Seek
This looks like the real thing! But the shot is not in high density clarification ?
If its (the backing has a foam like structure ) lots of little bubbles in the backing and is soft, it's OK but if as described before where it is stiff and has the appearance as the flaking of the paper composite on your Plaster sheet , then this is a twenty year old vinyl that was banned in the U.SA and Australasia.
Here is a U.S link to Flooring composites on what to expect, if it is be careful removing the old product this includes adhesive as a thing backing will also stay stuck to the floor.
Plaster sheet contains silica it's also a high risk factor with dust exposure from breathing particularization, which is why eyes get irritated, breathing difficulties will be almost intermediately noticeable as an indicator to a suspect irateness, from the source you may be working with.
The largest source of complaints come from Home renovators who end up being sick from working with old products.
Even in the U.S the onus is on you to know what you are doing before undertaking works at your premises, I've overseen these cases as an independent arbitrator as I have specialist documentation as to Australian and ISO world standards these cases that come to court can take on average three to eight years to resolve. Large companies such as C.S.R. , which ended up being James Hardy went off shore to Holland for the excuse of getting out of their responsibility's towards compensation of known products such as Vinyl related products, cement sheeting, and plaster board composites If you ever strike some thing with a blue backing or dark Grey , call in the expert revivalist to deal with it, Old blown in roof insulation contains Formaldehyde, the chemical mix in particle board would scare the daylights out of any one if you knew what was used to glue this junk together.
Just take it easy on whatever you pull apart and work with seek as we need you for the forum :thumbup:
Richard

Read this link :asbestos fibre in vinyl flooring
 

kkanuck

LUV my T1N
I agree with Don,

If you use hardiboard as you should for tile, you can get away with standard drywall. Same goes for the ceiling, just put an extra COAT of paint on it if not tiling.

Tibor
 

sikwan

06 Tin Can
Thanks Tibor (don't worry, I haven't forgotten about the Timer. I'm 30% done :D) for the 2nd recommendation. I'm going to leave the ceiling alone because it would not meet code in California. Inspections in California have failed because greenboard was installed as the ceiling.

As to the asbestos in the tiles, I found that there was tiling underneath the brown stuff that I had. I thought, "Great!" :cry: I've read that it was recommended to tile over asbestos tiles rather than tear it out. I took a sample of each, placed it in a ziplock, and took it to an accredited lab that was local here in the Silicon Valley (http://www.macslab.com/index.html). Paid my $70 ($35 per sample) and crossed my fingers.

I just received an email of the report in pdf. Here's a snip-it of it...
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If I'm reading it right, I'm very happy to say that there's NO asbestos in either tile or the adhesive that was included on the beige tile. :rad:

Richard (Altered Sprinter), thanks for the headsup. :bow: Not only did I endure the worse night of my life thinking about how I'm going to remove the stuff without endangering my 2 year old and a 2nd one coming along, I came away with a better understanding of just how nasty home improvement can be.

:cheers:
Seek

ps. Btw Richard, even if I die the Sprinter-Source will go on. :smirk:
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Great Seek
But I'm scared of Ghosts:shhh: Good to know you have done the right thing as the Kids are the ones that can suffer because of others inconsideration's to their welfare.
Richard.
PS a lot of the old formulations of building products especially in flooring components have known particularization that are unidentified under normal testing procedure's , It's interesting to note that even the sales personal that sell the products have no clue as to what is contained in the products.
However if you do purchase new products and may be concerned as to what the chemical's make up is ask for a M.S.D Material Safety data Sheet it is a legal requirement even in the United States for this document to be produced within 48 Hrs if not kept on the premises from where the product has been obtained.
Keep posting on the Reno so I can keep on post whoring:rad::rad:
 

Scott_Mc

Sprintering Since Aug/02
You guys are confusing me a bit. You keep calling everything "tiles" I do not see any "tiles" in these pics, well maybe that's one in the corner on the floor against the shower base? Should a adjust my monitor :smirk: ? I assume all of the tiles were of the 4X4 ceramic variety and have been removed already?

I removed most of the tiling, cement board, and some of the sheetrock.

Why SOME of the sheetrock and not all? Are you planning on overlaying the walls?


The close up of the old stuff. Yellow tiles and brown vinyl. :thumbdown:
View attachment 480
I'd recognize that crappy linoleum flooring anywhere, I've got a load of it in the first floor unit of my house:shhh:

The galvanized piping that I need to replace since I'm in there.
View attachment 481
great idea :thumbup:

The unused space above the shower.
View attachment 483
Above, I want to get rid of the space above the old shower and just wall tile up to the ceiling.

My question revolves around the green sheetrock or greenboard. I've read that greenboard is used behind toilets, sinks, etc. However, they're not used in shower or tub installations or at least some have not recommended it. :thinking: It has a more water resistant membrane than the regular stuff, yet they don't use it? :idunno:

Green board is still used just not nearly as much, cement board is the material of choice for shower stalls.

I'll be installing sheetrock to the walls and ceilings, adding cement board (Hardibacker) to the walls, and tiling over the cement board. Here are my dilemmas...
One of your dilemmmas is you are closing in the walls! Why are you putting cement board OVER sheet rock? You put the cement board directly over the studs. If you want, hang plastic or rubber membrane first

1. If I use greenboard I will have to cut out the ceiling (probably the regular stuff), replace it with greenboard. By the looks of the pictures haven't you already cut up the ceiling? Since greenboard is heavier, I have to make sure to mount it with 12 inch centers. I think my joists are 16 inches apart. You are out of your mind....16" centers are fine!

2. What is your opinion on using greenboard behind cement board in shower installations? :bash:

Should I just use the regular stuff and leave the ceiling alone? Leaving the ceiling alone would probably be the easiest. I'm not tiling the ceiling but just using regular waterproof paint and making sure it is sealed probably.

I'd use green board on the ceiling...period.

I almost forgot, I'll be adding a flush mounted water resistant light above the shower.


And how about an exhaust fan to keep all your nice work from getting mildew?

....
"Happy Home Owners" amuse me :laughing: Not trying to bust chops, probably sounds that way. If so, sorry!
 
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sikwan

06 Tin Can
You guys are confusing me a bit. You keep calling everything "tiles" I do not see any "tiles" in these pics, well maybe that's one in the corner on the floor against the shower base? Should a adjust my monitor :smirk: ? I assume all of the tiles were of the 4X4 ceramic variety and have been removed already?

:laughing: There's only one yellow tile left from the shower. I think we meant to say vinyl sheet (the brown stuff on the floor). I removed the tiles about a month ago and they were the 4x4 (why its 4.25 x 4.25 really annoys me :rant:) variety.

Why SOME of the sheetrock and not all? Are you planning on overlaying the walls?

Everything will go. I just opened it up strategically to save time (I had some other things to do that day) so that I can see and plan what I need to do and purchase.

I'd recognize that crappy linoleum flooring anywhere, I've got a load of it in the first floor unit of my house:shhh:

I got some more of the same stuff in the kitchen. :thumbdown:


Green board is still used just not nearly as much, cement board is the material of choice for shower stalls.

I'll be using Hardibacker cement board over the sheetrock.

One of your dilemmmas is you are closing in the walls! Why are you putting cement board OVER sheet rock? You put the cement board directly over the studs. If you want, hang plastic or rubber membrane first

You're right about this. One reason is the sheetrock will come out and meet the corners of the walls facing the camera. The shower tiles will not come out all the way to the corner of the wall. The shower pan doesn't either.

The sheetrock will also add an additional layer (1/2") to the lip of the shower pan so that the tiles will sit flush to the inner edge of the pan. The side of the pan (attached to the studs) to the inner edge is like 1.5 inches. I will be adding a membrane between the sheetrock and cement board as a backup.

By the looks of the pictures haven't you already cut up the ceiling?

The actual ceiling is beyond the punched holes. I'm not sure why the previous owner added the dead space. Either to save on tiles or provide a transition for the steam to roll off the step down to the exhaust fan mounted at the real ceiling level.

You are out of your mind....16" centers are fine!

According to the manufacturer, 16" centers are recommended for 5/8 thick greenboard. I needed 1/2" sheetrock (stud to edge of pan transition) and I didn't want to buy a 4x8, 5/8" thick sheetrock just for the ceiling, so it has to have 12" centers if it's the 1/2" variety. The reason, they claim and many others, is to prevent sagging.

I'd use green board on the ceiling...period.

That's what I was thinking too, but it has to be done by code and it won't pass inspection if there's greenboard up there. This is true only in my area.

And how about an exhaust fan to keep all your nice work from getting mildew?

There's an exhaust fan right above the toilet which can't be seen in the picture. I'm going for a Panasonic because I've seen one in action. Quiet and lots of cfm.

"Happy Home Owners" amuse me :laughing: Not trying to bust chops, probably sounds that way. If so, sorry!

Not a problem. Any input is a help to me. :thumbup:

Thanks,
Seek
 

Don Horner

2012 Unity IB
Why are you putting cement board OVER sheet rock? You put the cement board directly over the studs.

Technically, that's true. However, Hardibacker is very brittle, and can easily be broken without a backer. Appying ceramic tiles over it provides a measure of additional stiffness, but for the relatively low cost of sheetrock and the ease of applying it (tape joints won't have to be sanded, for example), it provides a low cost measure of security. Slipping and falling in a shower would be bad enough; falling AND punching a hole in the wall would be a bummer.

 

Scott_Mc

Sprintering Since Aug/02
I just opened it up strategically...
strategic sledge hammer blows:laughing:


You're right about this. One reason is the sheetrock will come out and meet the corners of the walls facing the camera. The shower tiles will not come out all the way to the corner of the wall. The shower pan doesn't either.
IMO You'd be better off I think to find your transition line on the wall perpendicular to the rear wall "X" inches before the corner, maybe an inch or to either side of the tile end point. That's going to save you getting into the corner bead of the existing wall. I'd leave that false ceiling as well, raise it if you want but it is going to look funny(maybe?) with the walls on either side of the shower going straight up to the ceiling? You are making a bit of extra work there. Not to mention installing the shower light will be easier too.

The sheetrock will also add an additional layer (1/2") to the lip of the shower pan so that the tiles will sit flush to the inner edge of the pan. The side of the pan (attached to the studs) to the inner edge is like 1.5 inches. I will be adding a membrane between the sheetrock and cement board as a backup.
I need my 3DBB

According to the manufacturer, 16" centers are recommended for 5/8 thick greenboard. I needed 1/2" sheetrock (stud to edge of pan transition) and I didn't want to buy a 4x8, 5/8" thick sheetrock just for the ceiling, so it has to have 12" centers if it's the 1/2" variety. The reason, they claim and many others, is to prevent sagging.
So you are going to open up the existing (original, above the false) ceiling and add ceiling joists for proper support spacing instead of buying one sheet of 5/8? I think I'm lost? I think Home Cheapo sells 1/2 sheets? They do with plywood aroound here anyways. So what is you local code? Ceilings must have 5/8" for fire code?

There's an exhaust fan right above the toilet which can't be seen in the picture. I'm going for a Panasonic because I've seen one in action. Quiet and lots of cfm.
Excellent choice. Been using them for years. You can order one from EFI and they'll ship it to your door. Nutone has had a decent line out for a while now too, I think they finally realized that their products were about 20 years overdue for updating when Panasonic came to town and sales dropped.

Don said:
Technically, that's true. However, Hardibacker is very brittle, and can easily be broken without a backer.
I guess I'm not familiar with this Hardibacker stuff. The "Durock" (name brand cememt board) that I know of comes in 1/2" or 1/4 (3/8" maybe) if you prefer. How thick is Hardibacker? Sounds thin.

On the Durock cement boards you are supposed to tape/mud/seal the seams as well.
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
This is entertaining, it must be the most popular site at the Mo" on Sprinter-source.com. :clapping::thumbup:
Richard
Now when we get to timber overlay flooring let me know.
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Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Tape is for ding bats the local trades with no brains for S##t
Give the idiots once second and they are in like Flynn trashing everyones works.
One of My companies employs this method full time as when under full contract, we have the key to occupancy, so the the law is no entry or get sued. and I'm the arbitrating judicatory for the local courts.
Richard
PS when a client spends up to AU $15000 the last thing any one wants is a dam plumber with his hob nail boots walking over brand new floors or expensive wool carpets, or an electrical contractor drilling holes in the walls and ceiling and not covering the area he works in, and then has the nerve to walk away without cleaning up. When we supply and fit Parquet flooring at up to AU $500.00 sq mt2 and Imported carpets worth eight hundred dollars a broadloom metre You'd do the same it's not unusual to employ security guards to maintain control of the site works.




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sikwan

06 Tin Can
Scott_Mc said:
strategic sledge hammer blows:laughing:

I used a sawzall...carefully...Good thing I don't own a sledge hammer. :laughing:

IMO You'd be better off I think to find your transition line on the wall perpendicular to the rear wall "X" inches before the corner, maybe an inch or to either side of the tile end point. That's going to save you getting into the corner bead of the existing wall. I'd leave that false ceiling as well, raise it if you want but it is going to look funny(maybe?) with the walls on either side of the shower going straight up to the ceiling? You are making a bit of extra work there. Not to mention installing the shower light will be easier too.

It will definitely be easier with the false ceiling for mounting the lamp and cleaning. It's still up in the air because I need to get into the attic to see if I can center the light over the shower. If not, then I will have to keep the false ceiling. Another thing is we want more height. We're not claustrophobic with the current setup, but would like to get that open feeling and more light.

So you are going to open up the existing (original, above the false) ceiling and add ceiling joists for proper support spacing instead of buying one sheet of 5/8? I think I'm lost? I think Home Cheapo sells 1/2 sheets? They do with plywood aroound here anyways. So what is you local code? Ceilings must have 5/8" for fire code?

The original ceiling is still there. The ceiling that you see above the toilet area extends over the false ceiling area so I don't have to add/cut anything. The only thing is that I want to find out if I can center the light without hitting a joist. If there's a joist over the center, the easiest way is to add the false ceiling rather than relocating the joist which might be a no-no.

Home Depot sells the 1/2" and 5/8" thick greenboard and regular. The manufacturer of the sheets recommend using 5/8" greenboard for the ceiling if mounting it using 16" centers. If using 1/2" greenboard, then the centers must be 12".

For California, at least in San Jose, greenboard is NOT allowed for ceiling applications; 1/2" or 5/8". :idunno: I'm not an expert, so I'm just getting this from people who have gone through failed inspections in my area and had to tear out the ceiling to replace it with the regular stuff.


Excellent choice. Been using them for years. You can order one from EFI and they'll ship it to your door. Nutone has had a decent line out for a while now too, I think they finally realized that their products were about 20 years overdue for updating when Panasonic came to town and sales dropped.

Thanks for the recommendation. It'll definitely be Panasonic.

I guess I'm not familiar with this Hardibacker stuff. The "Durock" (name brand cememt board) that I know of comes in 1/2" or 1/4 (3/8" maybe) if you prefer. How thick is Hardibacker? Sounds thin.

Hardibacker comes in 1/4" and 1/2". For shower walls they recommend 1/2". I'm using it because I've read that it's easy to use compared to Durock. The problem I've been hearing is that it doesn't adhere as well and many contractors are recommending using mortar vs Hardibacker or even Durock. :idunno:

On the Durock cement boards you are supposed to tape/mud/seal the seams as well.

The same is for Hardibacker.
 

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