Hydrogen Biodiesel Sprinter...

mgjessop

New member
Hello Guy's,

I just got my Hydrogen Boost kit from http://savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/ I got the SL-25 which makes 25 liters oxy-hydrogen per hour. Took me about 2 hours to install... I was really scared to start it thinking that I might blow my sprinter up... I have a scan guage wich tells me how many gph I am using... At Idle with the ac on I use 0.3gph... I turned on the Hydrogen maker and nothing happened and first, then about 5sec later I noticed that I was only using 0.1gph at idle... Super cool... The engine idle was perfect and smooth... So I took it out for a spin with it turned on... I noticed that there was much power than I have ever had... I got on the freeway and at 55mph I would nomarmally be getting around 28mpg and I was getting right around 34mpg:rad: I took it up to 70mph which would normally be right around 20-21mpg and I was getting 23mpg... Then I put the petal to the metal and took it up to 80mph I would normally get 16mpg and I was get 17.5mpg... I run 99.9 Biodiesel... I took the sprinter on a side street and was doing 45mph and I was only using 1.0gph... 45mpg...:crazy: I can't believe what I was seeing...
At 35mph I was getting 50mpg.... At 25mph I was able to get it up to 62mpg... My conclusion is that this unit really works... At lower speed it is a huge improvement... At high speeds The unit can't produce enough hydrogen to keep up with demand... I am going to dyno the sprinter today and I will let you know just how much power it really makes...
 
Last edited:

tymbo

New member
:laughing: :laughing: You don't actually beleive this BS do you? Basic physics says that it requires MORE energy input to seperate Hydrogen from oxygen, than the inverse reaction. Therefore the claims they are making are IMPOSSIBLE!!! You my friend have been duped. :bash:
 
Last edited:

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
:laughing: :laughing: You don't actually beleive this BS do you? Basic physics says that it requires MORE energy input to seperate Hydrogen from oxygen, than the inverse reaction. Therefore the claims they are making are IMPOSSIBLE!!! You my friend have been duped. :bash:
Chemistry/physics - science sometimes surprises us! If not, there'd be no new discoveries. :thumbup: Once 'science' thought that the world was flat . . .

I'd propose the following thoughts:

1. While the resultant energies from the direct combustion of oxy-hydrogen don't produce enough energy to continue the process indefinitely (what a wonderful discovery that would be!), there may be significant efficiency increases in the bio-diesel combustion - perhaps enough to be as beneficial as our good friend listed RESULTS.

2. He did list HIS results found with HIS Sprinter and contrasted with HIS performance before (see http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1141).

Not at all defending the link he provided, though. Seems to be interesting chemistry there. I'd like to see his thoughts of the chemical reactions posted. The fine fellow that makes this product may have stumbled on something profitable, but not because he understands the chemistry.

Regards,
Tim
 
Last edited:

mgjessop

New member
This unit does work... I had a dyno run done today... Did it with it off and made 126hp---207lbs... Turned it on and made 134hp---229lbs... I got a 8hp increase and 22lbs of torque... I was amazed that it got that much... This is also on 99.9% Biodiesel...

At freeway speed I am getting about 8-10% better fuel economy... It is nothing huge but it is a gain... At slow speed and low rpm under 1500rpm I see a huge gain in fuel economy... The unit makes the same amount of hydrogen no matter what speed your at... I also think that because Hydrogen is so explosive it helps the Biodiesel burn better... At Freeway speed I am using around 5.0-6.5gph so the percentage of Hydrogen is very low compared to the amount of diesel being sucked down... But when I am doing 35mph buring less than 1gph the percentage of hydrogen has to be at least 5-6 times of that at high speed... In order for my sprinter to see 50%-75% better fuel economy at freeway speed, This unit would probably have to make 10 time the amount that it does now... Where you will save money is when your driving down city streets at slow speed... I am happy with unit and I will keep you guy's updated... Also if you don't like the unit or think it crap they will give you a full refund...
 
Last edited:

tymbo

New member
The Hydrogen is produced by electrolysis. This requires energy. This energy comes from electricity produced by the alternator. The alternator is driven by the diesel engine. The net process is CONVERTING diesel/biodiesel fuel to hydrogen during a 3 step process:

1) diesel fuel combustion to mechanical energy, lets say 80% efficient
2) mechanical energy to electrical energy. lets say 90% efficient
3) electrical energy to hydrogen/oxygen seperation, 80%

Now the hydrogen is burned as fuel again in the engine, another 80% process.
The overall efficiency of this entire process is less than 50%! Where does the other 50% go? Waste heat.

The reason you are seeing INSTANTAEOUS results(Dyno) is because the conversion to hydrogen is kind of like slowly charging a battery or capacitor. Then when the unit is turned on it discharges much quicker than it took to charge.

The domestic v8 diesel hot rod guys use propane injection to get more HP and Torque. Or nitous oxide with additional fuel, for a burst of power.

Taking a snapshot of instantaneous fuel mileage is also a meaningless number. If I coast down a hill with the wind to my back- Heck I bet I could get 75mpg!!

People WANT to believe that there is a magic pill, but it just isn't there.
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
The Hydrogen is produced by electrolysis. This requires energy. This energy comes from electricity produced by the alternator. The alternator is driven by the diesel engine. The net process is CONVERTING diesel/biodiesel fuel to hydrogen during a 3 step process:

1) diesel fuel combustion to mechanical energy, lets say 80% efficient
2) mechanical energy to electrical energy. lets say 90% efficient
3) electrical energy to hydrogen/oxygen seperation, 80%

Now the hydrogen is burned as fuel again in the engine, another 80% process.
The overall efficiency of this entire process is less than 50%! Where does the other 50% go? Waste heat.
Indeed - but in most engines, the torque curve is such that step 2 and step 3 are insignificant, thus the efficiency of hybrid cars is caused not by better combustion, but by more efficient energy utilization. If step 2 and 3 cost nothing - meaning no more diesel used - and if step 1 is has increased efficiency due to the increased oxy-hydrogen in the fuel/air mixture, then one can expect better diesel energy conversion (better mileage). So, mgjessop has claimed that the conversion of diesel is ~10% better.

The reason you are seeing INSTANTAEOUS results(Dyno) is because the conversion to hydrogen is kind of like slowly charging a battery or capacitor. Then when the unit is turned on it discharges much quicker than it took to charge.
. . .
so, if we're seeing more HP and torque, then there is an increase in performance in the diesel, and the question is only "Does the conversion consume more fuel than it requires to produce?" Now, since most internal combustion vehicles have excess power (typically converted to heat and dissipated in the environment), it would seem quite possible that recovering that 'lost' energy by converting to electricity and then to the electrolysis that separates hydrogen/oxygen, would have not fuel costs, regardless of the efficiency of the particular process. Again, the question to be answered "Does the conversion cost any fuel?"

Taking a snapshot of instantaneous fuel mileage is also a meaningless number. If I coast down a hill with the wind to my back- Heck I bet I could get 75mpg!!
You might do so, but mgjessop has been open about his mileage and has acknowledged the importance of the same. as below.

Thank you for the info... I average about 20-22mpg around town and with normal driving i get around 23-24mpg highway... If i do anyting less than 55mph on the freeway I get alot of bad looks and the a flip of the bird every now and then:censored: ... Last month I took a trip to washington state, took back roads all the way up and averaged about 28mpg... Then took interstate 5 back at about 75mph all the way and got about 18mpg... I think the big saving is around the town driving... I always get 20+mpg. I own a 2003 f150 which gets about 9-10mpg around town and close to 20mpg doing 65mph on the freeway. I also think the 3500 High roof and being 158" hurts fuel economy alot compared to you guys with 118-140" low roof... Thanks again for the info and help....
People WANT to believe that there is a magic pill, but it just isn't there.
LOL - magic pill would have to produce more efficiency and cost less. Perhaps the best way to disprove his results are to

1.) visit him and see what he has or
2.) purchase one yourself and tell us how it works.

:laughing: :laughing: You don't actually beleive this BS do you? Basic physics says that it requires MORE energy input to seperate Hydrogen from oxygen, than the inverse reaction. Therefore the claims they are making are IMPOSSIBLE!!! You my friend have been duped. :bash:
:rant: duped? maybe not. Until proven, rather than theorized, wrong, he might be seeing an increase of 10% efficiency of his diesel fuel usage overall. Anyone who does a lot of traveling might benefit from this device if it really works.

mgjessop - when you get another long drive - like the one to Seattle, tell us what you see by the tank. I've started converting WVO to bio-diesel, thus saving significant $$ on fuel, but this would be great for longer trips.

Regards,

Tim
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
Hello Guy's,

I just got my Hydrogen Boost kit from http://savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/ I got the SL-25 which makes 25 liters oxy-hydrogen per hour. Took me about 2 hours to install... I was really scared to start it thinking that I might blow my sprinter up...
Seems that those concerns are quite valid. Oxygen and oil combinations are usually assumed to be dangerous! :D Obviously this kind of thing was a concern, what helped you to overcome that concern?

Can you tell how the oxygen and hydrogen are 1) stored and 2) injected into the combustion process?

What safeguards are implemented to assure that there is no oxygen and hydrogen being produced when the engine is not running i.e., key turned on but the engine not started as opposed to key not in the run position?

Does the device appear to be well constructed and durable?

Thanks for the input - it would be great to hear if someone else has one of these installed or installs it -

Tim
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
Today In History
MB was the first to test the Hydrogen cell technology back in 1994 using the MB transporter
I have not looked at the site in question as to which system is being used it depends on the unit involved as to raising the bar Psi bar and what influence there is on the intake system?
However the principle exists it's used world wide in Many vehicles, as such as Mercedes-Benz but of course more advanced
The Australian scram jet engines see a similar Hydrogen system by using forced intake volume to maximize the high end speed with Little fuel used as a result.
This thread is worthy of discussion! Thoughts being as to what the advertised site says about protecting the engine itself before possible self detonation 99.5 Bio Diesel, and forced air intake systems ! somethings going to give in the short term:popcorn:
Richard
hyd.jpg

163pschart.gif

figure3.gif

md pdf1.jpg

sprinterphev2.png
 

mgjessop

New member
I think I can help clear up a few things... The unit does not store any Hydrogen... It pulses it out... The unit only works when my engine is turned on... It is hooked up the air intake tube right after the air filter... I took a ballon to the output tube of the hydrogen maker... It took about 30 seconds to fill it up to about 10 inches in size... I tied it up and put a 4 foot string around it then held it over a candle...:crazy: It exploed with such a bang that I thought I blew myself up:bash: What I was trying to find out if the unit really makes hydrogen... It does... After much testing with it on and off I have figured out that the unit lowers my fuel flow by 0.4gph...

No matter what the fuel flow was it lowered it the same... If I was driving and using 5.0gph with it off then I turned it on it would go to 4.6gph... Or if I was using 1.7gph it would go to 1.3gph... That is why at lower speeds I would see such a huge increase and high speeds not so much...

So Biodiesel has 130,000btu per Gallon...

The Hydrogen Maker lowers my fuel usage by 0.4 Gallons...

Which is 40% of a Gallon Biodiesel...

So that would be 52,000btu's....

So the unit produces 52,000btu's of Hydrogen...

Say I am using 4.0gph of biodiesel at highway speed which would be...

4X130,000btu's = 520,000btu's need to keep me going...

Then I turn on the Hydrogen which Makes 52,000btu's....

That is 10% of the total Btu's needed....

Then I get my 10% fuel savings...

Today I drove to LA and back I normally use 12 gallons of diesel for the round trip... It is the same route that I take for my business... Today I used 10.3 gallons... I saved 1.7gallons at $3.49 for biodiesel which is $5.93 in fuel savings... Nothing earth shaking, but I figured out that I will save around $90-$100 per month... So the unit will pay for it self in about 6-7months... It should last for 5 years... So it should work out... I will keep you guys posted as time goes by...
 
Last edited:

tymbo

New member
lets see an independent test by a university research team, using strict scientific testing conditions. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!! You guys keep convincing yourselves that this gadget is saving you money, while the guy that sells these is laughing all the way to the bank:laughing:

P.T. barnum said it best..."A sucker is born every minute"

I give up:crazy:
 

BaywoodBill

pre-Yuppiedom
This quote from the ad for this product:
Supplemental Hydrogen is known by several names, some variations are HHO, Oxy-Hydrogen and Brown's Gas. We will use Supplemental Hydrogen or Oxy-Hydrogen most of the time"

My meager knowledge of chemistry doesn't have room for oxy-hydrogen other than water. HHO is H20, right?

Furthermore, in looking at the parts that come with the device, I don't see where it gets the water that it's supposedly using to liberate this HHO.

Where does the water come in? :thinking:
 

sikwan

06 Tin Can
Where does the water come in? :thinking:
You have to refill it every so often. From the site...

With the Oxy Hydrogen all you do is add one half ounce of koh (potassium hydroxide) as an electrolyte every 6 months (costs only $2-3 dollars per year), one half a pint of distilled water every 1000 miles and you’re on your way to great fuel savings.
And this...

Q2: How exactly does the Oxy Hydrogen Work?

A2: How the Oxy Hydrogen works is actually pretty ingenious. The unit sends an electric charge through a liquid electrolyte comprised of water and Lye which causes the hydrogen molecules to separate from the oxygen molecules in the water. It then captures the hydrogen and channels it into the engine via the air intake system.
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
lets see an independent test by a university research team, using strict scientific testing conditions. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!! You guys keep convincing yourselves that this gadget is saving you money, while the guy that sells these is laughing all the way to the bank:laughing:

P.T. barnum said it best..."A sucker is born every minute"

I give up:crazy:
LOL - nobody is 'convincing'. mgjessop was only posting his RESULTS. And I was answering your challenge, to which you've neither responded or listed your results with the unit that you've tested!

Your hypothesis is that the device does not produce more energy than the extra energy that must be converted for it's operation. If the energy required to run the HHO reactor MUST BE CONVERTED (diesel >mechanical > electrical) first, then your hypothesis stands. However, IF the energy utilized for the water > HHO conversion is excess (recovered entropy) then your hypothesis is likely false. To prove your hypothesis, the burden of proof lies on you: install a system and post negative results.

Nobody would challenge that we don't have a perpetual motion engine with the devices; only that it can be beneficial UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS and that if there is surplus energy in the application at hand then the HHO device can increase fuel efficiency. In your post, you said that excess energy is spent in heat; this device simply utilizes some of that excess energy before expended in heat (mechanical/electrical/reactor) and thus in the equation at hand could quite possibly produce diesel fuel savings. << This is the question that begs to be answered - either by 'independent' university researchers, or by practical people who have nothing to gain. The latter would produce better results, IMHO as 'independent' university research is most often paid for by SOMEONE, and the money trail has to be followed.

Regards,

Tim (Thinking clearly, logically, and scientifically; speaking for myself, and I guess believed to be 'duped' and a 'sucker' by some)

PS Frank discussion is welcome in all relationships, but name-calling is rarely appreciated.
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
I think I can help clear up a few things... The unit does not store any Hydrogen... It pulses it out... The unit only works when my engine is turned on... It is hooked up the air intake tube right after the air filter... I took a ballon to the output tube of the hydrogen maker... It took about 30 seconds to fill it up to about 10 inches in size... I tied it up and put a 4 foot string around it then held it over a candle...:crazy: It exploded with such a bang that I thought I blew myself up:bash: What I was trying to find out if the unit really makes hydrogen... It does... .
:laughing: I hope that my boys don't read that! They'll want one to play with.

It seems good to have a safety to make certain that it does not run unless the engine is RUNNING (air flow switch in the feed tube or something like that) because of the danger of oxygen coming in contact with oil (DANGER - OIL CAN SELF-IGNITE IF IN THE PRESENCE OF PURE OXYGEN WHICH THIS PRODUCES)

Does anyone know the volume of air required for air-intake while the Sprinter engine is running at x RPM? I'm interested to experiment with the volume of air and the volume of HHO (with formula, not to create 'explosions') and see what chemistry is actually occurring with this device installed.

As a matter of fact, the company that produces the machine has on their website some information that is factually incorrect (not to say that the device does not produce the end results of saved fuel). It is my hypothesis that the increased efficiency has little to do with burning hydrogen, but rather that the enriched air provides a better burning diesel fuel.

On the other hand, if there is actually a hydrogen combustion occurring in the chamber, I have questions about increased heat, etc. that seem to be potential concerns.

Best wishes for a successful experiment to both MGJessop and Tymbo (and not my sons)

Tim
 

mgjessop

New member
I understand what your saying, that is takes more energy to make Hydrogen then what it puts out... I have the 200amp alt on my sprinter... I hooked an amp meter to the Hydrogen Maker and it pulls about 23amps of juice... So I migh be getting power that would normally be lost? If this unit didn't work I would be the first person to say it is :censored: What some people claim on there web site I know can't be true... The unit only makes a certain btu, in order to get the mileage some people are claiming the unit would have to make probably 20 times the amount of hydrogen... I thought that I would be seeing 25-35% better fuel economy at freeway speed... Instead I am seeing around 8-10%... I drive about 200-300miles a day, so any amount helps... The reason why I got this unit was because I have a close friend who is a cross country truck driver... He has 2 large units installed on his rig... His average fuel economy is 4.5mpg... With it turned on he get's 5.0mpg... Doesn't sound like much but it saves him over $7,500 a year in fuel... What we should be asking.. What does hydrogen do the combustion process with diesel?:thinking:
 
Last edited:

Scott_Mc

Sprintering Since Aug/02
.......I have the 200amp alt on my sprinter... I hooked an amp meter to the Hydrogen Maker and it pulls about 23amps of juice... So I migh be getting power that would normally be lost?
200A is the maximum rated output of the unit. The more you load it the harder it is to turn and the more energy is consumed by the Diesel engine to keep it spinning. It only puts out what it needs to. Also the more drag on it the more heat it generates, more losses there.
 

BMA

New member
It is my hypothesis that the increased efficiency has little to do with burning hydrogen, but rather that the enriched air provides a better burning diesel fuel.

On the other hand, if there is actually a hydrogen combustion occurring in the chamber, I have questions about increased heat, etc. that seem to be potential concerns.
I'm also thinking it is providing oxygen to the diesel burning process. That in and of it's self can be a big boost. I'd expect that the hydrogen only partially burns with the oxygen as the hydrogen has this diesel competitor. Remember air is only 20ish percent oxygen. The unit would be outputting a gss mix that is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or 33% oxygen.
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
I'm also thinking it is providing oxygen to the diesel burning process. That in and of it's self can be a big boost. I'd expect that the hydrogen only partially burns with the oxygen as the hydrogen has this diesel competitor. Remember air is only 20ish percent oxygen. The unit would be outputting a gss mix that is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or 33% oxygen.
Also note that the device has lye (NaOH) as well as part of their reaction. Still working out the process!

It would be great if there was a way to see emissions testing results with and without to see the components of the output gases.

In diesel engines, there is no source of ignition until the diesel burns. This is different than gasoline engines, where there is a spark plug (DUH, right). Well, hydrogen does not self-ignite until it reaches ~1050 degrees F, while diesel self-ignites at 437 F. Thus, the diesel is already consuming the oxygen before the diesel is burning, decreasing the amount of oxygen available for the hydrogen to burn. Now, it is possible that the diesel is burning more efficiently due to the increase in the oxygen in the air mixture.

In discussion and drawing this out with Dad, he asks what sensors the MB computer looks at to determine the diesel injection amounts. Is there a pre-burn (intake) oxygen sensor? Is the exhaust gas temperature included in the calculations for the diesel injectors? I guess the best open ended question for someone who knows well the engine (maybe Andy or Richard will respond) "what inputs impact the diesel injection amounts?" I've not delved into much more than maintenance on this engine yet, so I don't know the answer to these questions.

This is not a matter of simple chemistry/physics! Far more complex.

Most important, it works!

Regards to all!

Tim
 

Top Bottom