Experiencing a "miss" on acceleration...

[Old Master]

It's been over a year, I suppose, since my engine starting missing. It used to be almost un-noticeable, but has progressed to where I'm starting to worry. My Sprinter is a standard van and engine, a 2004, and has 21,000-plus miles on it. It otherwise runs great...with none of the problems I read about in this Forum...thanks be to God.

The miss happens, or at least it's most noticeable, during acceleration. It is very brief, more of a "chuff...chuff" sound, and actually it can be felt in the "seat of the pants" as opposed to an actual "noise."

Clues:

1. I think I can eliminate dirty fuel, or water in the fuel. In the past nine months I have put almost 9,000 miles on this thing...about 3,500 of that pulling a 5000-pound boat back to Cincy from Seattle. I had the fuel filter changed (plus the whole nine yards) before I left, and only bought quality fuel (as far as I knew.)

2. I was almost afraid to leave Cincy, OH for Seattle, WA with this miss happening, but the Dodge guys said they could do nothing for me right then, so I chanced it. Funny thing is, I ran a constant 65-70 mph there and back, and never once experienced the miss...not one time! But, as soon as I got back to Cincinnati, dropped the boat, and next day drove to the grocery...the miss returned.:rant:

3. As far as I can detect, this miss doesn't occur at high speed...OR, if it does indeed occur, the noise, momentum, inertia, etc. masks it.

4. Another clue: I experienced this miss once before, and after some moderate combat with the Freightliner people, they changed the EGR valve and the miss went away. When I mentioned this to the Dodge people recently, THEY SAID THE MISS COULD NOT BE THE EGR VALVE BECAUSE IF IT WAS THE EGR, THE VAN WOULD JUST STOP. IN OTHER WORDS: THE EGR VALVE IS EITHER GOOD OR BAD...IT WOULDN'T LET ME DRIVE AROUND FOR A YEAR GOING "CHUFF-CHUFF." Is that right?

Okay, here's my big concern: My warranty expires May 30th. I want to get this taken care of before that happens. BUT...(you guys know how it is...) you have a toothache and go to the dentist. But when you get there it has stopped hurting, and you can't point him to the right tooth. Right? So I'm going to drive to the Dodge service people, they are going to put the van on their computer and drive around. And it's not going to miss. That's already happened. So I'm in a quandary. Also a pickle...and a bind. :crazy: Anybody got any ideas where I should start looking?:thinking:

Warranty question: If I write the Dodge people letters, plus take the van in to them...even if they can't detect the miss or if they can't diagnose it...THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ON NOTICE FOR MONTHS ABOUT THIS PRE-EXISTING CONDITION...will that particular defect continue to be covered under warranty even though the warranty has expired?

Uhhh, look, guys...I'm getting old and a little forgetful. So if I posted this problem in here before, please forgive me. But y'all are da MEN...unless some of ya is da WOMENS, and so I thought I'd run this by you before officially presenting it to Dodge again and demanding action.

Thanks so much.

John :thumbup:

[Altered Sprinter]

Hello John
I will keep this short let the other members have there say.
One best advise and practice to satisfy your concerns, is to find a qualified Diesel mechanic and have an independent evaluation to diagnose any possiable problems with the Sprinter! 'and get a full written report'
Do you have an auto club that has, the credentials to argue this if there is denial from a dealership.
Present this report to your dealer and get a written report acknowledging possiable defect problems, in doing so you have a case where this warranty issue of possiable defects, can not be denied if the vehicle has a end of warranty date, but this applies only to a report of known defects prior to expiry of defects not future ones..
It would pay also to write down what your are told by either side as a reference that can be used in a court dispute documentation can be used in court hearsay is non admissible its too hard and costly to prove.
Of course I'm thinking worst case possibility, but you have nothing to lose and at least you have a resolution in place, for peace of mind.
at the end of the day it could just be a leak or possiable blockage through some minor contamination that causes the little miss, when the van goes put put, instead Vrooooooom:D
richard.
Richard

[Therberg]

Hi John , I dont know if it it could be this simple, but my Sprinter was have similar problems. It started out with maybe a little miss or a skip on acceleration and over several weeks it kept getting worse. The problem progressed to the point that it would cut out completly ,it never stalled or triggered a check eng light, but you would have tolet up on the accelerator,then reapply and it would take right off with normal acceleration.

The problem ended up being, believe it or not ,a slightly out of adjustment brake light switch. It was just on the edge of on /off. While engine running and in park try holding the RPMs to 2000 and pressing the brake, you will find the engine RPM drops to idle. You can check brake light switch adjustment,there sould be a bit of peddle travel before the lights come on.

I hope it may be this simple but often overlooked problem. Let us know what the conclusion is, when all is well.

Tim H

[aljimenez]

I also experienced missing like you describe and the local Dodge dealer, after much diagnostic time, discovered a wire that was shorting out against the exhaust... Al

[talkinghorse43]

I presently have a problem too with my '02 which may be similar to yours. About 15k miles ago (now 98k miles - emission warranty about to run out), I began to notice some rough idle and more noise at idle from what seemed to be one cylinder (about 5/sec). I took it to the dealer thinking it might be another injector going bad (#5 went out @~30k miles). Dealer could find nothing wrong with the fuel system sensors or injectors.

Fast-forward to now; now it's surging at idle (when #5 went out, also had surge at idle & a little smoke - no smoke now) plus the noise, both seem at about 5/sec (noise and surge coincide), so I'm still thinking something to do with an injector. Also, it will sometimes stumble just a bit at first when I accelerate from idle. I hesitate to take it directly to the dealer because they will likely resist any action and it will just be $ down the tube. Lucky for me the Doktor is in my area and I'm going to call him to ask if he can help. Whatever happens, I'll report what was found.

[talkinghorse43]

A status report - This past Friday, Doktor A used his DRB-III in an attempt to diagnose the problem with my '02. To make a long story short, this analysis points to lower than normal compression in #3 cylinder. Doktor A says it's better to physically test compression than to rely solely on the DRB-III, so this conclusion is tentative. In the interim, I'm assuming there may be some carbon caught in the seat area of one of the exhaust valves. I'm basing this assumption on the fact that the miss problem began when I was testing the effect of RedLine fuel catalyst and I'm thinking this may have made some of the carbon deposited in that cylinder mobile enough to move to the valve seat. Also, the problem was absent for about 400 miles and then came back. And, it now varies in intensity. Anyway, my interim plan is to again add RL and hope it can repair the problem. Thanks again Doktor A! And, I'll continue to report on progress, or lack thereof.

[Altered Sprinter]

Talkinghorse43
You just need to give the old girl a little TLC
carbon build up is a fact in a Diesels life, since 1972 I have always used upper cylinder lubricants to keep the systems and fuels cleans. To date I've never had an issue or an engine that need attention due to fuel related breakdowns
Richard.
carbon build up on diesel valves - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-45,GGGL:en&q=carbon+build+up+on+diesel+valves)

[talkinghorse43]

A status report - This past Friday, Doktor A used his DRB-III in an attempt to diagnose the problem with my '02. To make a long story short, this analysis points to lower than normal compression in #3 cylinder. Doktor A says it's better to physically test compression than to rely solely on the DRB-III, so this conclusion is tentative. In the interim, I'm assuming there may be some carbon caught in the seat area of one of the exhaust valves. I'm basing this assumption on the fact that the miss problem began when I was testing the effect of RedLine fuel catalyst and I'm thinking this may have made some of the carbon deposited in that cylinder mobile enough to move to the valve seat. Also, the problem was absent for about 400 miles and then came back. And, it now varies in intensity. Anyway, my interim plan is to again add RL and hope it can repair the problem. Thanks again Doktor A! And, I'll continue to report on progress, or lack thereof.

The above is bogus - turns out the DRB-III can't be used to determine compression with an '02. In the meantime my problem developed further to the point where, when I returned to the local FL dealer, the tech was able to judge by feel and by sound that I had a bad injector. So, 125 miles short of the expiration of the 100k mile emissions warranty, #2 injector was replaced (under warranty) and I have no more problem. That's now 2 bad injectors (#5 & #2) in 100k miles.

[Altered Sprinter]

That's crook, But it does validate ! My long term experience with Diesels and fuels , which is why an additive from the very start,which acts as to the preventive of the total break down of an engine due to those carbon mischief makers.
Richard
1664

[buxmont]

So Altered, what additive do you have the best experience with?

[abittenbinder]

- turns out the DRB-III can't be used to determine compression with an '02. In the meantime my problem developed further to the point where, when I returned to the local FL dealer, the tech was able to judge by feel and by sound that I had a bad injector. So, 125 miles short of the expiration of the 100k mile emissions warranty, #2 injector was replaced (under warranty) and I have no more problem. That's now 2 bad injectors (#5 & #2) in 100k miles.

The DRBIII "quick" compression test requires that a vehicle have a starting system(battery, starter motor, wiring connections, etc.) capable of maintaining steady starter speed for about 10 seconds. It may be coincidental that both your Sprinter and the Sprinter I tested several days later were '02s and exhibited the same rpm drop-off rendering this compression test invalid. I may retest one with fresh battery and starter.
An injector quantity leak test can be done (at idle or with starter cranking- if
no start condition). It is THE definitive test for identifing injector
problems. The factory Miller tool set consists of a series of 5,
double chambered, calibrated vials which snap onto the injectors in
place of the small fuel return line fittings. The vials feature the
identical fitting profile w/ o-rings and are retained by the steel
clips from the return lines. The amount of fuel return over a
predetermined time period is then measured and defective injectors
are identified. Doktor A

[Altered Sprinter]

So Altered, what additive do you have the best experience with?
I guess if you hunt about, there are many threads on our forum, talking about additives.
I use red line RL2 as it was designed for engines from 2002, there may well be better I know of one that the US Military use, but without testing it I can't say if it's right for a Sprinter.
Here is a link for the product, it works and my injectors are clean ,there is a little vanish building but after two years this May, it's to be expected.
Richard.
PS where the United States is having more than it's fair share of problems is because of refineries in the past including today are not putting in an additive to reduce the high sulphuric content that is in Diesel fuels, even with ULSD Shell and BP do! I think Chevron are starting to do it, but not all states get it.as to emission standard variations on the lower ranking 45 states.
RL-2 and RL-3 Tech Info (http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/14.pdf)
Please Guys think about it! Your having this problem occur almost weekly on the threads through out the N/American sector, we had this identical problem IN Australia on early Sprinters up until 2000 to 2002 the change of Fuel and additives have solved the problem.
Extra additives help to compensate for fuel that may be contaminated from other delivery sources.
Low ash oils are also worth considering as they are now becoming available stateside.
Richard

[Wileycoyote]

The manuals for my 2 sprinters specifically say not to add any additives to the fuel. Now I've surely wanted to add in some diesel lubricant but am afraid that doing so would void the remaining warranty on the engines.

[Altered Sprinter]

The manuals for my 2 sprinters specifically say not to add any additives to the fuel. Now I've surely wanted to add in some diesel lubricant but am afraid that doing so would void the remaining warranty on the engines.
Go to a Mercedes-Benz dealer in Canada and ask them for a fuel additive, which will be supplied:thinking: Then ask yourself what Those idiots at DCX are doing to fix the fuel problems the US and Canada are still having, put the stuff in it will clean the engines and purify the fuels and it will not melt down the oil seals with ULSD Diesel fuels , use the wrong Diesel and it will irrespective of the additives you may or not put in, they work , .
Richard

[Wileycoyote]

We only have one kind of diesel that we can buy at the pumps.. Biodiesel is just starting to be talked about but we know sooo little about it its pretty sad.

[Altered Sprinter]

We only have one kind of diesel that we can buy at the pumps.. Biodiesel is just starting to be talked about but we know sooo little about it its pretty sad.
Your pumps should read ULSD Highway truck stops have both Diesel fuels including B20 winter fuels the best between B10 and B200 B10 is LSD
Bio fuel ethanol base that has a five percent ratio is approved by Benz
ULSD is compulsory in Canada since September the 26th 2006
BP Shell has it there is a label on the pump indicting the ULSD content
Richard

[Wileycoyote]

All this talk about B10 B200.. all I know is in winter we have winter diesel which doesnt gel and I get lower mpg's with it and now its spring time so we switch to summer diesel which is much better fuel. But your saying by law we have this ULSD diesel and in no way would a additive such as Howe's diesel additive (That is sold at all Truck shops) will not in any way negatively affect my engines at all and will more likely benefit my engines? Sorry Im very new to diesel engines and tech talk goes right on over my head. But I'm willing to learn as I now own 2 Sprinters and a 1992 ford 7.3 diesel as well.

[Altered Sprinter]

All this talk about B10 B200.. all I know is in winter we have winter diesel which doesnt gel and I get lower mpg's with it and now its spring time so we switch to summer diesel which is much better fuel. But your saying by law we have this ULSD diesel and in no way would a additive such as Howe's diesel additive (That is sold at all Truck shops) will not in any way negatively affect my engines at all and will more likely benefit my engines? Sorry Im very new to diesel engines and tech talk goes right on over my head. But I'm willing to learn as I now own 2 Sprinters and a 1992 ford 7.3 diesel as well.

Wileycoyote
Trying to keep this short and simple is not an easy task, fuel Diesel in the N/American sector is a hard act to follow from Mexico to Alaska , there is no uniform standard dealing with different governments and in your case provinces makes it even more difficult , two reason , the geographic locations as to climate variations and the use of Dieseline throughout a sector that favors gas over a more viable and economic fuel based product that has the capability of halving Energy use and carbon emissions by up to 50%
In your manual there is a reference to fuel use and Bio-Diesel for the Dodge Sprinter.
Two grades of Diesel for heavy duty Dieseline engines of which the Sprinter is referred to as a medium class H/D engine.
Dodge and Mercedes say use the summer fuel not the winter grade fuel as to the kerosene which is used as a thinning agent can damage the Sprinters engine, in fact you will void your warranty if this fuel was found to be the cause of an engine failure.
Winter grade Diesel fuel has no additives incorporated in to the fuel to reduce the very high sulphate content that is in this type of fuel based products, Kero in fact is only used to thin the fuel down , unfortunately it also is the end product of a refinery's waste product, it's just that a thinner with excessive mineral contents that are referred to as acidic amino acid based by waste products, which are highly corrosive to rubber seals and fuel joints etc, with a low quality based fuel the mix of Diesel and kero produce larger quantities of carbon build up within the engine which as you would be aware of cause injectors to block, and or lose the correct spay patten of fuels onto the valves, this in turns causes high build up of carbon deposits on the surface of a given valve which also builds deposits behind the valve face and into the port housings , meaning the valve is not shutting in the manor it is designed to do, to complete the high fuel burn.
As time goes by the injection system fails to function at max rpm fuel pumps become defective fuel lines rust or appear to have a rust like substance forming on the out side of the rails and inside, of the lines , where there are joints a whitish powder like substance can be found which is a result of salt accumulation from water waste by products, that is pumped into your engine fuel source, from the dealers holding tanks.
IN short your fuel has no additives added to it to reduce the sulphuric acid build up and or to naturalize other contaminated fuel sources.
You could say it's a stand alone fuel source and "your not protected," which costs less than a cent a gallon ,to add into the fuel from a refineries point of view.
The problem there is no enforcement as Both US and Canadian EPA units have not sufficient mandates, to enforce it, but in the main it's how the fuel is de,livered via pipelines, again Diesel is sent in bulk supply with other products in front and behind it, so we have another source of cross contaminated fuels, pipelines are either privately owned and or a part owned by fuel companies and well produces, as to regulations in both Canada and the USA this control of lines is hidden behind multi-organizations to get around the complexity's of government regulations on both sides of the border.
You quoted an additive such as Howe's additive, I am not familiar with the product, however not all additives are suitable for a modern European engine, one needs to research, for an additive that is designed for modern engines built after 2000 such as Red-Line RL-2 or RL-3 this was designed for engines built after 2000 amsoil is another quality product.
in the basic form. for example this is what Red Line synthetic oil based Diesel ignition improver does to assist in the continuing performance of your engine.
Cleans and lubricates injectors
Reduces smoke and diesel emissions
Improves engine efficiency
Prevents fuel system rust
Stabilizes Diesel fuels
Removes controlled amounts of water
Lubricates upper cylinders and pumps
Reduces diesel fuel friction by 50%
Contains no harmful alcohols acts as an effective anti gel additive
Red Line web site gives all the information you require including other oils and additives etc
• Turbo engines (http://www.samarins.com/maintenance/engmain.html#turbo)
Red Line Oil: Fuel Additives (http://www.redlineoil.com/products_fueladditives.asp?subCategoryID=14&productID=32)
RL-2 and RL-3 Tech Info (http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/14.pdf)
Red Line Oil: Gear Lubricants (http://www.redlineoil.com/products_gearlubricants.asp)

Canadian site for ULSD fuels your sprinter is designed for ULSD fuels, not LSD
Ultra Low Sulphur On-road Diesel (ULSD) Questions & Answers (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cppi.ca%2Fpdf%2FULSD_Q%26A_e. pdf&ei=-0swRsC4IZf4hAP3y4SnAw&usg=AFrqEzdUIesU2vnqxxQSNqpYbNyn3GeZzQ&sig2=_xAzwhcgJC1qC8FCfFcfIw)
Quote you lost a tail-shaft?
When did you change the ATF Fluids last shaft?
ATF Level (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23&highlight=atf)
Anyone running alternative ATF fluid? Amsoil or other (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=550&highlight=atf)
Fuel Filter - 2005 (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457)
There you go that will keep you busy for a little while:thumbup:
Richard

[Wileycoyote]

I changed the ATF fluids at my dodge dealership less than 10k kms ago. I'll reread that big post you wrote later today. I have to get outside and change my rear brake pads before I head off to work this morning. Thanks for all the info your providing me.

[dwolff]

1st Measure on a miss on acceleration.



GO Below and check the Drive Shaft center support bearing ( rubber around it, also)- 9 times out of 10 that is it.

1st normal reaction is to think it is fuel- 2nd normal reaction is to think itis the Torque Converter.

If it were the Torque converter- it would do it on kick down and other times, not just from stop to go.


dwolff@sc.rr.com

[EEJ]

I am experiencing this miss on acceleration. Seems to be only on hard acceleration onto the freeway. Letting off on the pedal a bit it goes away. I was intrigued with this propellor shaft bearing link mentioned in the post above because I also have a whine at high speed, but how would a bad bearing cause a "miss"?