Turbo Resonator Problem [Archive]

jriordan

02-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Hi Richard and Old Master

Thank you for helping rearrange the location of my posts on the Sprinter Turbo Resonator problems. Despite the fact that I own a technology based company, I do not spend much time on forums and am therefore less than an expert at replying in the correct manner, etc.

In response to your request for an explanation on the problem please allow me to share some info with you. It is my understanding that this problem is found on late 2004, all 2005 and all 2006 Sprinters. 2003 and before did not use turbo resonators at all. I have not the slightest clue why they would have chosen to add this resonator to the system for the small amount of turbo noise it actually muffles.

The Sprinter chassis with its 2.7 liter Mercedes Benz turbo diesel engine is becoming increasingly popular with RVers and commercial users because of its great fuel economy and driver-friendly characteristics. However, the turbo resonator is one flaw in the engine design that has caused the Sprinter chassis to suffer an inordinate amount of breakdowns. If the truth were published, this is a HUGE problem, not a small one. It is especially troubling to RVers who use their vehicles to “get away from it all” only to find that after they did they are now hundreds of miles or hours away from help.

The turbo resonator is a plastic, bonded-together assembly intended to act as a “muffling” device for the intake air delivery system. This plastic assembly, in my opinion as a plastic injection mold designer, is not well suited for a high-heat, vibration and boost-pressure-rich environment. Reportedly on its third revision by the contractor who makes the resonator for Mercedes, some owners we have worked with are still reporting multiple failures, within less than 10,000 miles, each one leaving them stranded. Including failures of the last "new fix" design, released in 2006.

When the turbo resonator fails, usually under acceleration or climbing hills, the engine’s computer senses a lack of sufficient boost when compared with throttle position and assumes that the engine has suffered from a “catastrophic turbo failure.” The computer then puts the engine into “limp home mode” which means the vehicle may not be able to climb hills at all and is limited to about 35 to 45 mph, depending upon the weight of the vehicle. In many cases this results in the need for a tow truck to get back to a dealer who can fix the problem.

Not exactly a desirable feature in emergency medical services vehicles transporting critically ill or injured persons or specialized armored vehicles carrying precious cargo that cannot afford to become vulnerable. One of our clients who owns an ambulance company with a fleet of Sprinter based ambulances experienced turbo resonator failures on fully half of their fleet before converting them all over to our Resonator eliminator.

Recreational vehicles carrying family members trying to get away from it all are finding themselves stuck in out of the way places, miles from anyone who can help them. Winnebago "View” owner Larry Oslund found himself and his family in this situation three times in less than 9,300 miles. Larry told us, “This last time, we were traveling down the Interstate at 70 MPH with an 18 wheeler only 20 feet behind us when the turbo resonator failed and the motorhome did a nose-dive, went into the now familiar, ‘limp home mode’ and slowed to 35 mph instantly almost causing the 18 wheeler to crash into us". "Then", Larry continued, "Dodge told us there were only two five-star Dodge dealers that work on the Sprinter chassis in Mississippi, one in the North part of the State and one in the South. We were forced to drive 118 miles to get to the dealer, still in limp home mode, and then pay for a motel for five days while the Dodge dealer ordered the part and fixed the motorhome. Frankly, I believe Dodge should have to reimburse us for the vacation time lost and the motel costs". "Further", said Oslund, "I think DOT should look into this problem because it is incredibly dangerous. We are lucky to be alive.”

A quick search on google sprinter forums reveals instance after instance of these failures.

Realizing the extent of the problem and the lack of a solution that gained the confidence of owners, Dodge dealer service facility foreman Randell Stowe came to the James F. Riordan Company for a solution that could be offered to owners who wanted a metal part they could put in that would not fail. These sprinter owners, "did not want to see any more plastic parts." Our company, within three days, designed and produced the first prototype part that has now become the industry wide cure for all operators of Dodge Sprinter Vans and commercial vehicle chasses.

Dodge and Daimler Chrysler management and upper management I have spoken with are certainly acutely aware of this problem, even though many Sprinter owners have told us that their Dodge dealers who service the Sprinters have told them, "it is not a problem."

I believe Daimler Chrysler has tried, albeit perhaps half-heartedly, to solve the problem with multiple revisions but they are still using a two-part plastic assembly in a high temperature, high vibration and high pressure operating environment that I believe requires a metal part. As an injection mold designer, I know plastic parts and I know their strengths and weaknesses. I have cut apart each of the different Polycarbonate plastic versions and I still have not seen one that I would trust, especially in emergency vehicles or RV’s. In my opinion the design of the part is inappropriate for the application and pre-destines it to failure. For instance, the "beefy" side of the plastic resonator slips tightly into the output end of the turbo and is bolted firmly to the alternator bracket. That is ok. The problem is, the other end of the plastic assembly is simply bonded onto the beefy part and then slipped inside a long and rather heavy piece of intake rubber hose that is constantly vibrating. So, with constant vibration and heat, it would probably fail anyway in the long term but adding 20 inches or more of turbo boost pressure, in many cases, shortens the life of the plastic assembly dramatically.

The new SRE-06 resonator Eliminator, designed for our local Dodge dealer, is a high quality, high strength Billet aluminum replacement designed to last the life of the vehicle. It comes with clear and simple directions and takes about 15 minutes to install with only a small 1/4 inch wrench ( or socket) and a 5/16 inch wrench (or socket). Truly, anyone who can install a radiator hose will have no trouble quickly replacing this part. According to Dodge representatives with whom we have spoken, the installation of our part should not affect the warranty since it has absolutely no effect on the performance of the vehicle (other than to keep it running). None of our customers have expressed any problems with warranty coverage after installation of the Resonator Eliminator. Actually, the dealers themselves want to see their customers satisfied so they have no incentive to balk at replacement parts that keep customers happy without affecting the longevity or performance of their vehicles.

Presently we have literally hundreds of these parts installed in commercial Sprinter vans and chassis, ambulances, armored vehicles, delivery vehicles and RVS with thousands of trouble-free test miles on the Eliminator. Every customer we have spoken with is happy with the product.

The turbo resonator Eliminator is available at a growing number of Dodge dealers and from our company at www.riordanco.com and costs only $89.95 plus shipping (and tax for CA customers), not much more than a stock plastic part, and it comes with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. The peace of mind of knowing you will get out and get back without being stranded . . Priceless! Please feel free to call me personally for any more info or help. (530) 676-4729 If you have friends who have Sprinters, please help them avoid this problem as well and pass along this post.

The only other question I have had that has not been addressed herein is replacement timing. Some customers have asked, "Can I just buy one and carry it with me until I need it??" Of course the correct answer is, "yes", however the proper answer is, "yes . . . but, depending on your luck, would you rather replace it in the relative convenience of your own garage or driveway, or chance having to replace it lying on the side of busy freeway with traffic whistling by inches away or laying on your back in the mud and the muck?" Trust me, replace it at home BEFORE it goes out.

Thanks everyone, hope this was helpful and hope Richard can find the correct place for it! Best regards, Jim Riordan

Altered Sprinter

02-26-2007, 09:18 PM

Hi Jim

Thats one long post and I'm limited to time as I need to go to work soon , so I'll pick up on it to-nite.
In fact you have touched base as to the cause in many sections, interdenominational issues relate to the turbo seal failure so has Andy with the engine link on the 647Fuel Rail alert for type 647 engines - Sprinter-Forum.com (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806)
I need a little time on this as I'm not a mechanic , My expertise is standards and the US sprinter has a different set up to European and Australian Sprinters which don't have the problem but did on older 1996 to 2000 models in some areas, but the cause was identified and was not a design fault of the Sprinter to the original spec's
Question Jim do you have a photo of the plastic seal that's failed ? I would love to see it along with the backing plate it attaches to basically I need both photos in micro resolution format.
The DOT can only investigate a complaint in the event of an accident that links to mechanical failure as the contributor to the accident this takes a huge amount of expertise and money to report on the facts, the EPA would then be involved and you then have the next issues as to a third party link or links that may have been responsible towards the failure this would take 5 years in in a US court to instigate, cost millions of dollars and there would be no satisfactory outcome, even if a silk took it on pro-bona he would go broke, it's to contentious.
I'll run this to-nite.
Richard

BaywoodBill

02-26-2007, 11:14 PM

jriordan writes about his resonator eliminator very well but has anyone actually been "stuck" because of a resonator failure. From my own experience and from what I've read, the failure puts the engine into the non-turbo mode and you can still make about 60 mph on the level and 45 mph up typical hills.

While I'm still contemplating the purchase of one of the eliminators, I don't like to see such alarmist posting about it.

chaozz

02-27-2007, 04:51 AM

hmm maybe time to call and get a group buy going :laughing:

sikwan

02-27-2007, 04:59 AM

While I'm still contemplating the purchase of one of the eliminators, I don't like to see such alarmist posting about it.

He does have a bias towards selling these things. :smilewink:

Maybe he can give us a discount as Chaozz has mentioned. :bounce:

Altered Sprinter

02-27-2007, 01:03 PM

Hi Jim
Again thank you for your time to post the article for your turbo resonator replacement part I would think as you have stated it will prove to be more effective than the OEM part and I wish you the best for future sales, there will be many, The problem has been around from the very beginning of the introduction of the Sprinter to the N/American sector, as I have seen over the years many complaints over this very issue of failing seals on the resonator it's more than common that's for sure, as to how many have been an issue on the Sprinter! I'd assume X=unknown? however I agree it's been a problem for many folk.
The reason I would like to get my hands on a high resolution Photo is to run a spectrum test to see for myself, as to the information I have regarding the failures that M-B have.
to explain this a little further Sprinters in Australia have not been effected to any significant degree that would warrant investigation, since early 2003 prior to that back of 1998 there were issues on both the Sprinter and Vito's, the Vito was non turbo assisted, the Sprinter was both, engines had O ring failures, and a few Sprinters did blow the turbo units not the resistor, however this was fuel related as LSD was in use and the refineries were not up to date as they are today, even though Diesel is imported from Singapore its refined in Australia to met the Euro 4 Emission standards in fact in two states We have the pp/m down to 10/ppm to comply to Euro5 emissions same as bin 8 at your end, in California.
Emergency vehicles are 90% Mercedes Sprinters with no mechanical issues apart from normal maintenance they are optioned up to a H/Duty format with retro fitted dual air-con six speed automatics as to the Mercedes units causing too much vibrations in the engine department from the Harmonic balancers which was causing turbo seal leakages, from the vibrations generated from the cooling condensers in front of the radiator, this was for the year 2003 only. redesigned for Australia.
From the written reports I have seen in reference to the seal failure, the report stated crystalline salt layers of condensed Aromatic hydrocarbon build up of sulfate acids of 15 types of substances of particularization contaminates, ranging from soot to Metallic ash, with differences in the agglomeration of unburnt diesel particles.
Tests on Fuel from Europe and the US showed patterns of burn rates between 1400rpm to 4600rpm to vary as to higher temperature's, with detonation of N0x particle emissions.
The differences between European and US diesels where the Mercedes Engine is designed to run and burn at the higher rate with ULSD and the LSD US diesel showed a an increase of just over 25% to 30% with winter fuels in high and low burn rates of fuels.at the same rpm tests for the Euro fuels!
Secondary tests showed fatty amino acids and oils at the same seal! concluding the wrong fuels being used, the list went on , but that is all that needs to be said, my thoughts were the Board has a attitude problem with each of the two divisions, where one for argument sake is saying the engine mets the specifications we're not paying for a fix that's not the Sprinters fault where we have proved it's a contamination source.
The other side is denying responsibility and nothing gets resolved.
If this was taken to a court, in the event of an accident that could be proved on to the manufacturer, Then the blame game would proceed, DCX management would face serious questions in court, but the respondent would directly place the cause to both refineries and the EPA for not doing their job because of Senates indecision's to rectify fuel problems in the US.
The down side of the older Sprinters is they did not have a computer management system that recognized a high concentration of NOx to order up a higher fuel burn to keep the engine running at peak temperature's.
Even with the 2007 Sprinter it only has the particle trap emission exhaust , however with the 2008 Blutec unit this will be incorporated for the SCR Ammonia sensor,to pick up the temperature to order up the burn, it's now on the Vito's in Europe and the Sprinter is next in line.
Interesting point with the turbo shut down at 70 miles an hour ! there is no further turbo assist as your past the max range of torque for it to be effective I've been caught twice in the last month passing a truck on a country run thinking I had sufficient time to get by, accelerating is way to slow as there is no turbo response, drop back a gear and the rpm indicator goes to red line and the engine momentarily shuts down to almost zero rpm drop back behind the truck and the engine picks up to it's normal rpm but thats on a manual gearbox not auto?
Well the model is now history, lets hope the next one proves to be better.
Richard.

jriordan

02-27-2007, 07:15 PM

Dear Richard and Seek,

Wish I had the high res photos requested but at this time I do not. However, perhaps I can shed a little more light . . . . Every failed unit I have taken apart has been cut apart, longitudinally, in my machine shop to get a "cross section" look at the failure. In each case, without actual "lab level" tests, it apprears to us that the "point of bond", which I referred to earlier as a "seam" is what failed. Some have been major failures characterized by a separation of approximately 35% or more of the bond, while others have been minimal failures of approximately 5 to 10% of the bond. I have not personally seen one that broke completely apart but I have heard of that happening. Remember it takes only a tiny "area of failure" to lose enough pressure to trigger the computer. I have also seen one with a very tiny seam split that we could find only by pressurizing the device, that would trigger the computer only after the engine became warm and under load and then when the engine was stopped and restarted, the "check engine light " would be off and the vehicle would once again run fine until warm and under load.

Seek, my photo that you posted does show exactly where the bond fails between the two parts, I just do not have any close ups of a failed one. Sorry about that, we were more concerned with quickly providing a permanent fix than trying to detail exactly where or to what degree each part had failed. I actually quit "dissecting" them after I had examined a failed example of the very latest design and I remain confident in my explanation I posted as to the multiple factors involved in the failures. Further, many if not most of the failed parts would require that you actually put a small, thin wedge between the two parts of the assembly to pry them apart at the point of failure enough to allow the actual failure point of the bond to become visible if that makes sense. In other words, the "seam" or Bond failure can be virtually visually indectable without prying or pressurizing the assembly enough to make the two parts separate enough to actually be able to see the split in the bond. I will however, try to take some photos for the forum the next time someone gives me a failed one. (They usually "pitch" them)

In answer to other members' comments, while I may be considered "biased" by some, I hope that all of you will keep in mind that a Dodge dealer's shop foreman brought the problem to me for a solution and this part is certainly not a profit center for our company, just a product offered to help all of you avoid the problem.

In response to the member who pointed out that "some of them must not be failing" I of course agree. I have a broken back from an aerobatic aircraft accident (not my fault, rudder failure) and so I took the position that I would rather not chance getting stuck under the vehicle on the road if in fact it did fail. It would be great to be able to get the actual failure statistics from Dodge/Daimler, but I'm sure we will never gain access to those unless someone does indeed get injured due to a failure and the statistics become evidence, but I can assure you that it will be an abnormally high percentage of delivered vehicles when compared to other known defects.

Richard, I am impressed by your depth of knowledge and research on the causes, chemical analysis etc. I have not conducted such extensive tests but would like to leave you with a simple analogy. If one were to take a plastic cylinder and attach it firmly to the top edge of a table and then bond to the end of the cylinder an "end cap" with a piece of tubing formed into the center of the end cap and then, keeping the main part of the plastic cylinder well supported and firmly in place, you were to attach a fairly long piece of heavy rubber hose over the tubing on the end cap (creating a "moment" of force at the bonded area) and then begin inducing a constant vibration to the rubber hose, it is easy to see that the bond between the end cap and the well supported cylinder is the weak point and the focal point of the vibration. Now when you take the weight of the unsupported part of the hose times the length of the hose (the weight times the arm equals the moment of force on the bonded area which is in shear). Add heat. Now add internal pressure (boost) and now you have a device I believe is destined to failure. Had they instead bonded the two part assembly together lengthwise or longitudinally, instead of using a "butt joint" it would have borne the "moment", vibration and shear over the entire length of the part and probably would experience far less failures. At the end of the day, I still prefer a metal part in this environment.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this info, I believe a few years down the road it will be become a very well known problem. I will be happy to answer any more questions that will help. Best regards to all, Jim Riordan

Altered Sprinter

02-27-2007, 09:47 PM

JIM
again thank you for your information it is very much appreciated by the given evidence of all the forums I have looked at with Sprinter complaints, very little information come in from a manufacture or highly specialized mechanics or engineers etc.
The Billet you have, 'stands to perfect reason it will with stand heat', including torsion forces caused by resonance from other influences, Your alternative is the "industry standard to a quality product", something the Benz boys took pride in, until the famous merger in 1998.
The only reason I wanted to see the seal points on the resistor was to examine particle build up which forces to seal to open up, then I could make up my mind as to the reasoning of where the truth lies it's out of curiosity that keeps me interested with the darker side of the Sprinter.
Always late picking up on the interesting threads, I'm off to work
Thanks Richard,:clapping:

jriordan

02-27-2007, 10:47 PM

Hi Richard,
Thank you for your kind words. I think I understand now what you are trying to observe. If I am correct, you would like to do a spectro-graphic analysis of the finite particles gathered around the inside of the failure point in an effort to determine whether there may be a chemical vs. material reaction that may be causing the split. While I believe we could gain info from such a test that would tell us what chemicals/particulates/compounds were exiting the area of the split at the time of the split, I am of the personal opinion as a plastic mold designer that there are no chemicals to be found in the resonator airflow, that would be in amounts significant enough to CAUSE the split or failure point since Polycarbonate is inherently resistant to darn near everything to the point that there are very few truly good adhesives for bonding it together that do not in fact MELT it together. Richard, I think perhaps this is one of the reasons that SOME of the resonators live longer than others, because the initial bonding of the two parts is SOOO important and some are initially bonded better than others. Still think if it had been a longitudinal bond instead of a "butt" joint we would not be seeing this problem. If I get one in hand that may fit your needs for analysis, I will pack it up and send it to ya. G'day mate. Jim Riordan

Altered Sprinter

02-28-2007, 08:09 AM

Hi Jim sorry we are on different time zones Yes the Spectro-graphics analysis
is correct Because I wasn't sure what you called them as to the England interpretation of America England and Australia! Each to our own, we call it a colour Spectrum analyzer even color is pronounced different so I have to keep checking on the US spell check thing which annoys me.
I understand what you are saying, and its that part that interests me, as I have fuel rail injectors fuel pumps and the back of the turbo data sheets showing the same contamination levels at different degrees , last port of call is the turbo connection to the exhaust outlet and it's there where it's showing a different patten with chemical changes that have varied through out engines different sections, Europe comes up clean in most cases except when your heading back into old ex communist territory's same pattern reoccurring, It's almost a pandemic from Canada down to South Africa, I'm not defending the Manufacture as you solved it then in a nut sheel so should have the management, my involvement was not because of the Mercedes engine but because of standardizing the fuel watch program that's supposed to voluntarily adhered to by the manufactures, it's not and has not since late 1999, political interferences are the problem there.
However because of what we were doing The Mercedes engineers knew what to do with the new Sprinters a small fortune has been spent on it's engine along with Chrysler's sun Diesel concept future engine with alternative Diesel bio-fuels along with a worlds standard fuel , the same for everyone, solves a lot of issues with manufactures trying to get an engine to run right instead of quick fix alternatives for different geographic areas.
If I can ever get a photo of it then I can do a simple test put the photo into negative and use a blue light as the back light color , it will show the same white pattern of contaminated or stress points of failure to help me determine the complete picture. I'm retired from all of this but the interest remains, so it's just a curiosity thing to satisfy an old mind that would love to see a closure on the issue.
Thanks for you time.
Cheers Richard
PS did you know it was deleted in some country's altogether? work that one out.

jriordan

02-28-2007, 07:01 PM

Hi Richard,

If you would like to email me or snail mail your address to me privately, I will be happy to send you the next failed part I get and let you know from what state it came from in the US and that way you can test it or photograph it without the "crime scene haveing been tampered with" (;>)) And yes, I did know some countries are simply eliminating/omitting the resonator. It really does not reduce turbo noise much anyway in fact some of our customers cannot hear any difference without it. If you ever get over here you will have to visit Seek and I. Geographically we are only about 2hrs apart. I have plenty of room. Might even fly ya upside down on purpose! Best regards, Jim Riordan

Suba

02-28-2007, 08:49 PM

Hi Men I haven't read the entire thread here. I do have some input which might be valuable. I have an 04 Sprinter. I purchased one of Riordan's all aluminum turbo resonator units. It took about 1/2 hour for me to replace my old turbo resonator. The instructions that came with the unit are very clear and precise. I had no prior problems with my stock resonator, but decided that it was wise and prudent to replace the original unit. For me, I made the right choice. The unit from Riordan is a quality piece. I cannot hear any difference between the original unit and the replacement. I feel secure that I will never have a turbo resonator failure ever. I must say though that the original resonator is not a *cheap plastic* part. I feel the original unit is well constructed and has been designed for the intended purpose. I think that some Sprinter owners have exceeded the parameters of intended use, and as a result have induced undue stress on the resonator.There could have also been a bad batch of resonators. My feeling is that if you do not over load your Sprinter, of if you do not over boost your Sprinter, you will probably never have a resonator failure. Having said that, I fail to see why M.B. did not simply manufacture something similar to what Riordan has made. I feel the replacement resonator is superior to the original unit, however the original resonator is not doomed to fail IMO. My recommendation is to replace the original unit, if nothing more than for piece of mind. I am not affiliated with Riordan or anyone else. I think I went through this with my 1st post on this site, but I had a few skeptics, hopeful now you will listen to me. It is my opinion that the replacement resonator is worth the money and highly recommended.

abittenbinder

03-01-2007, 04:39 AM

I fail to see why M.B. did not simply manufacture something similar to what Riordan has made. I feel the replacement resonator is superior to the original unit, however the original resonator is not doomed to fail IMO.

This is not a "replacement resonator". It is an apparently rugged substitute for the resonator, but it is not a resonator-which MBenz strongly felt(by virtue of obvious $$ expenditure in design and manufacturing costs) was needed to control undesireable audible noise. Doktor Andy

BaywoodBill

03-01-2007, 03:33 PM

Thank you, Doktor. That fills an obvious hole in the discussion.

Suba

03-01-2007, 07:46 PM

This is not a "replacement resonator". It is an apparently rugged substitute for the resonator, but it is not a resonator-which MBenz strongly felt(by virtue of obvious $$ expenditure in design and manufacturing costs) was needed to control undesireable audible noise. Doktor Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, the replacement unit does not reduce turbo whine. From what I have read (this may or may not be true ) the turbo resonator was introduced starting with the 04 model. I hear no real difference between the stock resonator and the replacement. I don't claim to be a smart man, but it certainly looks like it cost more to manufacture the original resonator than the all aluminum billet unit. Mercedes was obviousely going for a refinement to quiet the turbo...however like I said I cannot tell any difference.

jriordan

03-09-2007, 12:09 AM

Dear Suba, Baywood Bill and Dr. Andy,
First, Suba , thank you for your kind words. We do take pride in our work and as such try to deliver only quality products, regardless of what the nature of the product is. We work on everything from medical devices to armored vehicle devices, voice activated games to novelty items. In the case of the resonator eliminator, it is far more costly to produce our billet aluminum part than the plastic resonator. Suba, think about it this way, once the injection molds are fabricated, the design and fabrication of which is VERY expensive) the molded parts themselves are relatively cheap to produce in volume. While the plastic part looks more complex, and it indeed is, the COM (cost of manufacturing) per unit is much cheaper. Each billet aluminum part must be machined in several operations, then the mount arm is fabricated separately and then TIG welded (Tungsten/Inert/Gas) and then the assembly is prepped for shipment, so a lot more labor, machine time and material cost goes into each part.
Doktor Andy is absolutely correct that the eliminator is not a resonator. I also agree that MBZ probably thought the design of the plastic device with the resonator chamber (that chamber is what makes it larger) would reduce the turbo whine, but just as Suba says, all of our customers have noticed little if any difference in turbo noise after they install the billet eliminator. Andy, we all agree MBZ makes great vehicles. I just think in this case they miscalculated the value of a slight noise difference versus the huge decrease in reliability of this particular part. Again (please see my earlier post) if they had designed the same part but bonded it LONGITUDINALLY, then the intake hose clamp AND the turbo housing would have acted in unison to resist the vibration that results in shear (and as Richard pointed out) torsional loads that ,together with heat and boost pressures make most of the plastic resonators prone to failure. One recurring question seems to be "how many are actually failing?" Any of you members who would like to speak with our customers, who have fleets with vehicles that have failed in large numbers, are welcome to call me for their contact info and feel free to speak with them. I am in no way over estimating the failure rates of this part and I would be happy to put any of you in touch with people who can confirm in person for you just how many failures they have had.Bill, thanks for your comments. Incidentally, if any of you have any other things in your RVs that break or just generally are less than you want them to be, please let me know. If we can design a marketable product to replace it, we will pay you a percentage of sale. We also make Lexan driving light covers (after having broken both driving lights from road rocks) and custom brackets to keep the flat screen TVs actually in place when traveling on our MB Cruiser version of the Sprinter RV, (a photo of which RV you can see on our website). Please feel free to email me from the contac us page of our website as well, if you would like to communicate with me off-forum. I would be happy to hear from any of you, or help any of you.

abittenbinder

03-09-2007, 03:19 AM

Doktor Andy is absolutely correct that the eliminator is not a resonator. I also agree that MBZ probably thought the design of the plastic device with the resonator chamber (that chamber is what makes it larger) would reduce the turbo whine, but just as Suba says, all of our customers have noticed little if any difference in turbo noise after they install the billet eliminator. Andy, we all agree MBZ makes great vehicles. I just think in this case they miscalculated the value of a slight noise difference versus the huge decrease in reliability of this particular part.

MBenz did not intentionally trade a "slight noise difference" for a "huge decrease in reliability of this particular part(turbo inlet resonator)". I'm sure the failures came as a surprise, disappointment and costly warranty penalty (In addition to resonator replacements I suspect more than a few turbochargers were removed and replaced at the dealership level before the resonators were identified as a probable cause of boost loss). A posting by one of your customers (on the yahoo sprinter site) contradicts your claim that "all of our customers notice little if any difference in turbo noise".
The posting from yahoosprintergroup: "I have one installed on my Itasca Navion motorhome, quick easy
installation, but there is a definite turbo noise between 2k and 3k
rpms, enough to make me want to install the latest plastic version and
keep the aluminum one for a spare."
While I commend you on your efforts and your entrepreneurship I remain unconvinced by your assertion that MBenz squandered time and Euros on an insignificant and "slight noise difference". And on a commercial vehicle. Doktor Andy

Altered Sprinter

03-09-2007, 11:20 AM

Well guys this has been an interesting discussion
my thoughts are non biased, however there is a clear indication that the OEM part for Damlier-Chrysler has been prone to failure under certain conditions.
Be it a geo_graphic problem because of out side influences? , we all agree that the part has been an issue over the last few years, where there was no immediate rectification from the DCX group:thinking:
My Thoughts from an out side perspective, is that Jim has come up with a part that will not break down! "as it is a seamless unit',
irrespectively of it being quieter, or a little more nosier than the original, is hear say each to our thoughts.
If I was in the situation of having to replace the unit then I would be buying from the alternative manufacture as to it being a superior quality product for longevity in the long term, "Just for the peace of mind"
I can guarantee you that the bean counters in Germany were aware of the issues in regards to the problems the Dodge/Freightliners were having.
But the 5 cylinder engine has gone, as it's been archived into the books of yesterdays history as far as the New Dodge Sprinters are concerned.
But not else where this motor continues to live,along with significant up grades and the proven rock solid sprintshift six speed auto, for the third Generation Sprinters.
As it was a proven and very reliable engine, elsewhere.
Where you have a 100% made in the USA billet eliminator is something to be proud of, I think I know where my money would go:thumbup:
Note, My Opinion only.
Richard
Third Generation 5 CYL CDI.jpg (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1326&stc=1&d=1173442626)

Suba

03-11-2007, 10:17 PM

" Well guys this has been an interesting discussion " -------------------------------------------------------- Sorry guys, I haven't taken the time to figure out how to use the quote function : )) Yes, I also think this is a worthy topic. Yes, your T/R may never fail. Yes, the all aluminum unit is well designed and implemented. If I can hear a sound difference, it's a very slight difference in turbo whine...that is to be expected. This is what I think. Don't worry about any added noise with the replacement unit.....you'd be hard pressed IMHO to detect any difference. Your stock resonator may never fail. I wasn't willing to take a chance on it failing on the interstate or elsewhere. If you've got an extra $100 to spend for a well manufactured part for your Sprinter that will also bring you a lot of piece of mind......just buy the replacement. I've noticed that the guy promoting the aluminum replacement has been on every conceivable forum to promote his product. That's smart business, and the guy has a good product for a potential problem. I think anyone who is complaining about added turbo whine honestly is probably unhappy with anything they buy. I made the right choice. I replaced my T/R elimintor in 30 minutes, and I feel it was wise money spent period. You guys have a nice day : ))

chef

03-12-2007, 03:55 AM

Altered Sprinter

03-12-2007, 04:49 AM

No Chef
But Welcome to the forum.
Six quarts of oil in ten minutes means you have serious problems
suggest you start a new thread for HELP in Sprinter talk.
State your problems and when it started. such as miles done what fuel cold start etc.
We have mechanics that can assist you
Richard.

topless

03-13-2007, 03:51 PM

I had a "limp home " episode this week..... loss of power, strange fluttering then grinding noise. I pulled over, couldn't tell what was going on. I started the truck....ok at idle, put it in gear....flutter and grinding noise and a big bellow of smoke out of the tail pipe. I check the oil....2 qts low.HMMMMM

I fill the oil, Limp a few more miles.....bad smoke pours ot of the tail pipe, I pull over check the oil and its burnt 6 qts in 10 minutes? Is that a symtom of the turbo resonator going?

Thanks,

Chef Mike

My guess is a blown turbo. There is a system pressure oil fed to the bearings in the turbo. If the turbo seals fail the oil goes directly into the engine causing excessive oil consumption and usually the bearings in the turbo fail due to lack of proper lubrication.
Depending on the mileage, it would be covered under warranty.

chef

03-13-2007, 06:42 PM

Thanks Topless

FFJeff

03-19-2007, 04:24 PM

As to the question could you really get stranded with a blown turbo resonator? Yes. A Sprinter camper loaded would not climb out of a steep canyon in crawl home mode.
I witessed this myself. They were the lucky recipiants of my old plastic resonator that was carried as a spare after converting to the Rirodan aluminum resonator.

cpeeke

04-05-2007, 09:16 PM

I have had a total of four resonator failures in the first 12,500 miles of my 2005 Pleasure-way RV on a 2004 Sprinter chassis. All occurred while on trips away from home, and many miles from a "5 Star" dealership. The first limp home was with 4500 miles and took four visits to my dealership in Florida and the replacement of many different parts. The mechanic could get no help from DC with the issue. He finally just replaced everything it might be. At 7,000 miles I had another limp home episode in the Florida Keys. At 8500 miles I lost another resonator in South Carolina. By this time the dealerships had "been made aware" by DC of the problem, and had it fixed in about an hour. I got home only to have another failure at 12,500 miles. My Florida mechanic had it fixed in another hour. All failures occurred on level ground at 70 mph. I then bought the Riordan product and installed it in 20 minutes. My wife claims the turbo is a little quieter, I think the sound is just more pleasant. At any rate, I no longer wait for the excitement of another failure. The Dodge dealerships and mechanics should me commended for the all the hard work they put into fixing my RV with little or no help from DC. Mr. Riordan should be commended for coming up with a fix for this problem. I am not sure what the "Doktor" and DC should be, but it isn't commended. I love my Pleasure-way RV an everything else about the Sprinter chassis, but come on DC, get it together on this issue.

Altered Sprinter

04-05-2007, 10:48 PM

What was a bad news story, turns out to be good news Story.
Thats great :clapping:
Richard

BaywoodBill

04-06-2007, 03:30 PM

I have had a total of four resonator failures in the first 12,500 miles of my 2005 Pleasure-way RV on a 2004 Sprinter chassis.

This is a puzzling post. Topless has a 2004 sprinter and no resonator. Other members have said the resonator wasn't added until the 2005 models. Clearly there are some 2004s that have resonators, right?

aljimenez

04-06-2007, 03:51 PM

I have had a total of four resonator failures in the first 12,500 miles of my 2005 Pleasure-way RV on a 2004 Sprinter chassis....

I also have an '05 PW on '04 Sprinter and I don't think mine has a turbo resonator. Do you have photos of your installed turbo resonator so I can double-check mine, please? Al

topless

04-06-2007, 04:58 PM

My van is registered as a 2004, but I've not checked to see if it's actually a 2003 chassis.

BaywoodBill

04-07-2007, 05:42 PM

I also have an '05 PW on '04 Sprinter and I don't think mine has a turbo resonator. Do you have photos of your installed turbo resonator so I can double-check mine, please? Al

Actually, I don't have one installed anymore; I bought Topless's Resonator Replacement and have installed it instead.

The best place to see the turbo resonator is from underneath. It's toward the passenger side of the engine and toward the front. A hose comes from the bottom of the radiator into the black, bulbous thing. If you don't have a black, bulbous thing then you don't have a resonator.

On page 1 of this thread there's a picture of the resonator. The thing that sticks off on the side is a brace that bolts onto the alternator bracket.

Jack in Iowa

04-17-2007, 03:53 AM

BaywoodBill,

How is the noise from the aluminum Resonator Replacement as compared to the OEM Resonator?

A friend of mine recently put the Resonator Replacement on his Winnebago View but took it off due to the unpleasant noise it made. He said it resembled the sound of metal against metal at certain RPMs.

There are several View owners who have modified their OEM resonators by adding JB Weld to the seam. So far none have reported failures but it may be too soon to tell.

Jack in IA

abittenbinder

04-17-2007, 05:22 AM

I have had a total of four resonator failures in the first 12,500 miles of my 2005 Pleasure-way RV on a 2004 Sprinter chassis.

Mr. Riordan should be commended for coming up with a fix for this problem. I am not sure what the "Doktor" and DC should be, but it isn't commended.

Hey-I didn't design the failure-prone OEM resonator! I was merely defending DCs motives for the expense and effort of including a resonator at the turbo intake. Several anecdotal reports (see the above post for the latest) hint at justification of DCs extra effort and expense. It's too bad it wasn't a bullet-proof construction. Docktor A

BaywoodBill

04-17-2007, 05:21 PM

Doktor, you are right about the money spent on that resonator. When I took mine off I was very impressed by the elaborate construction.

As far as noise, neither my wife nor I has noticed any different noise coming from the engine compartment since I installed the aluminum replacement. I expected to hear at least a little turbo whine or rushing air. It does puzzle me why some get a noise and others don't. While my hearing isn't terrific, my DW's is excellent; she heard no whine.:popcorn:

FredSheldon

04-17-2007, 06:10 PM

I wonder if one could place a large hose clamp around the unit from top to bottom and pad it with something and clamp it down enough to prevent the unit from splitting apart as a back up measure :)

BaywoodBill

04-18-2007, 08:52 PM

I wonder if one could place a large hose clamp around the unit from top to bottom and pad it with something and clamp it down enough to prevent the unit from splitting apart as a back up measure :)

I had thought about wrapping it up in duct tape.

jujupang

04-23-2007, 09:31 PM

I've been crawling under the front of my Sprinter looking for the turbo resonator and can not seem to find it. It was described as being on the passenger side front and attached to the hose coming out of the botton of the radiator. I can't find one and just to doublecheck I crawled under a Winnebago View Sprinter conversion and don't see it there either.

Is there a picture posted or can someone else describe the location pls.

Thank you,

Pang

BaywoodBill

04-24-2007, 05:54 PM

jujupang wrote: I've been crawling under the front of my Sprinter looking for the turbo resonator and can not seem to find it. It was described as being on the passenger side front and attached to the hose coming out of the botton of the radiator. I can't find one and just to doublecheck I crawled under a Winnebago View Sprinter conversion and don't see it there either

Well, I thought there was a picture somewhere in this forum but I couldn't find it. So, here goes:

Get on your back under the passenger side of the engine. There's a hose from the bottom of the radiator that goes up to the resonator which is just below the turbo charger. The resonator is attached to the alternator mounting bracket. If you can see the alternator and the turbo charger (on the passenger side of the engine) then the resonator is right in that area. As you can see by the picture earlier in this thread, it's a bulbous sort of device, about the size of a small grapefruit. The thing that sticks off to the side of the resonator is the brace that attaches to the alternator bracket.

KenB

04-24-2007, 09:41 PM

If you do use "duct tape", I really recommend Gorilla Tape it is in the 300 MPH class at least...

Regular duct tape might be 100MPH tape, mil spec is 100MPH+, Gorilla Tape is way stronger, stickier, tougher. Just remember to cut it off because it is not easy to tear...

KenB

Old Master

04-27-2007, 12:27 AM

DieselBob

04-27-2007, 03:49 PM

Okay, I have located my Turbo Resonator...finally.

Question: I read in an earlier post...weeks ago...where someone said, "I changed out my resonator today; replaced it with the Riordan replacement part. It took me ABOUT TWENTY MINUTES, and I feel much more secure now," (or words to that effect.) From what I can see, it is going to take me at least an hour to just figure out how to get my hand on the thing. For you guys who have changed one...is it done from the top or from underneath the van? Is it as simple as loosening those two adjustable clamps and taking it out, or is the thing bolted to the block/frame, or whatever? I DON'T NEED A HIGHLY DETAILED EXPLANATION HERE...just get me started. And, thanks!

Does the Riordan part come with directions?

John

I just did mine a few day ago. The part comes with directions. I needed access from both top and bottom. Three fasteners involved. Hose clamp and two 1/4 inch bolts attaching to alternator bracket. Hose clamp had to be loosened from above. The two bolts from below. On assembly I positioned the hose clamp to access from below. Only slight problem was the upper 1/4 bolt had been installed using Lock-tite, hard coming out and going back in. I should have wire brushed the threads clean.

BaywoodBill

04-27-2007, 05:17 PM

Hi, Old Master... DieselBob has it right.

I didn't try to do mine in 15 or 20 minutes. I sat down in the driveway with the instructions and tools and went about it very methodically.

There's the point when you just pull the plastic resonator out from the turbo charger and you wonder how in the heck it keeps from just blowing right out when the turbo is at full spin... same thing when you cram the new one in, I'm thinking, :idunno: :thinking: :eek: . "There must be more here than I'm seeing".

But there isn't, I hope. The replacement hasn't blown out yet. :clapping:

Old Master

04-27-2007, 11:07 PM

Thanks Bob and Bill...just the info I needed!

John

What Next

04-27-2007, 11:56 PM

Thanks from me too, I'm going to pull mine off and see if it's an AA or AB. You have me worried now the LTV is a late 04. Have 36000 miles I did lose all turbo pressure once in the middle of Utah when that hose clamp ended up being loose.
Thanks Gary

KL2BE

08-21-2007, 05:32 PM

There is now a Poll on Turbo-resonator failures on the Yahoo Sprinter Forum.
Please participate if you have a '03-'06 2.7 liter Turbo diesel Sprinter whether or not you have had a problem (it will provide a much better picture if the trouble free owners show up with those who have experianced the problm).
Go to or join the Yahoo Sprinter Foum and then go to the "Poll" folder.

abittenbinder

08-21-2007, 05:39 PM

There is now a Poll on Turbo-resonator failures on the Yahoo Sprinter Forum.
Please participate if you have a '03-'06 2.7 liter Turbo diesel Sprinter whether or not you have had a problem
Go to or join the Yahoo Sprinter Foum and then go to the "Poll" folder.

The type 612 engine found in '02-'03 models does not have a turbo resonator. Owners of '03 models should not look for one, worry about one nor participate in the survey. Doktor A

rvdriverca

08-22-2007, 12:34 AM

sikwan

08-22-2007, 12:51 AM

Bandago

08-22-2007, 01:01 AM

I've seen several people refer to the Yahoo Sprinter group, but I'm not sure I have located the group. There is a "sprinter" yahoo group, but it only has 68 members, is this the one everyone is talking about?

sikwan

08-22-2007, 02:11 AM

Wileycoyote

08-22-2007, 04:34 PM

Last Wednesday one of my 2 sprinters had the resonator go about 250kms away from home. It was on my '06 sprinter.

rvdriverca

08-22-2007, 08:13 PM

please post the part # when they replace it. it should end with AB and not in AA.:clapping:

Wileycoyote

08-22-2007, 10:54 PM

i will try to get that. I made them pull one off a sprinter that was on the lot as I wasnt in any mood to wait 10 days for one to be shipped up here. I hope its one of the newer ones but i still have 120,000kms to replace it again if it so happens to go. I am definately going to buy one of the aluminum ones from california shortly though as my 1st '05 sprinter is nearing 130,000kms and hasnt had a problem yet *Knock on wood*.

AHAMAYfrank

08-23-2007, 05:00 PM

My 3rd turbo resonator failure at 43,000 miloes was the last straw for old blue (04 FL 2500HC 144) :cry:. I installed an aluminum replacement and drove it to 50,000. When the 07 arrived I put the plastic POS back in and “limped” in for the exchange. Now she’s up for auction, “as is” I would assume. Loved it when it ran!!

Wish I could check AB vs AA now.

Frank

KL2BE

08-30-2007, 11:14 PM

As per pleasure way. " any new resonator replaced today with a part # ending in AB will not fail in future" seems a batch where made and the heat treating of the plastic was wrong. The latter should now have been pulled of the shelves.:thinking:

(A) Is the part number imprited anywhere on the resonator? (B) Can it be seen without removing it?
(C) Has anyone except Pleasureway announced this helpful information?
In other words, can we check to see if we have a "fixed" part before we spend $100 on an aluminum resonator-eliminator?

What Next

08-31-2007, 01:12 AM

Look back to first page of this and post #3 the picture, little white decal is the thing that has AA or AB. You will have to pull the resonator off. When I ordered a spare it came with a notice to check # and AA AB any old ones were to be returned. I am not sure I think some new ones have failed not positive about that.

acvr4

08-31-2007, 12:52 PM

There was a few up for sale on ebay. So I picked one up just to be safe :thumbup:

Altered Sprinter

08-31-2007, 12:59 PM

There was a few up for sale on ebay. So I picked one up just to be safe :thumbup:
Better to be safe than sorry.
Richard

Altered Sprinter

10-06-2007, 07:00 AM

Following up on a recent post by Jim Riordan
As to a few new posts showing in the forum, same thing:idunno:
I thought I would cut and paste this reference of Jim's as it does explain in detail as to part of the cause.
As there is a replacement Jim's , and there appears to be two resonators! with different numbers? from Dodge and Damlier??? I thought I'd refresh the post, for further commentary.
Richard

4124

BULBASOR

10-07-2007, 05:11 AM

Thee OEM hose clamp on BULBASOR was a worm gear with SLOTS, not grooves. (Grooves WOULD be cheap and cheezy).

I have used BOTH the OEM Resonator and the Aluminum "Eliminator" and I can comment on both.

First, I think Dr. aBittenbinder is correct. I found this unit to be more than just a muffler. It's my opinion that MB designed this unit to break up the air flow and increase the air volume like a capacitor stores electricity, only the resonator stores AIR. But what's seems more important, it stores COOL AIR. I found my Sprinter ran a little hotter with the aluminum unit on long grades than it did with the plastic unit. I assume the air flows through the 'bathtub', picks up a slight cooling from surface contact, and is "cycloned' into the engine at greater volume for that short instant that the turbo is pressurized. The plastic would make sense if the engineers were trying to COOL the airflow at the instant it goes to pressure. (need the chin holding happy here)

I know this is a lot of speculation, but I too don't think this unit as just a noise toy. I did a test in sound between the two units and found little difference except at that slight instant when the turbo pressure is on the increase side of the curve. The OEM resonator was LOUDER when it "whined". The Aluminum unit was a little quiter off preassure, and on pressure it CHIRPED loudly. I have driven next to a lot of turbocharged big rigs and I can clearly here thier turbos "WHINE", not CHIRP. That tells me the turbo whine is the cyclone effect, and I suspect it's desireable on ALL tubocharged deisel engines.

I can see an advantage to a cycloned air flow because it increases volume and dissipates heat.

My two cents.:2cents:

jdcaples

10-07-2007, 06:27 AM

...
tells me the turbo whine is the cyclone effect, and I suspect it's desireable on ALL tubocharged deisel engines.

I can see an advantage to a cycloned air flow because it increases volume and dissipates heat.

My two cents.:2cents:

I completely agree.

-Jon

RV Mom

11-14-2007, 11:22 AM

I just experienced the resonator problem with my 2007 Winnebago View RV with a 2.7L mercedes diesel engine with 9300 miles on it. Luckily my speed only dropped to 50 miles (less going up hills), and after some panic and lots of phone calls I slowly drove to a Dodge Dealership 140 miles away. Upon calling, they knew immediately what was wrong and replaced the cracked resonator.

Two questions:
1. They said the replacement resonator has been redesigned. Is the replacement resonators the dealerships are using any good? Would they have replaced the plastic clamps that fail also?
2. What other surprises might I expect with this engine? Should I be on the look out for any other typical failure mode or have any spare parts with me? I am traveling alone with my two sons, we are homeschooling while visiting historical sites and museums throughout the US. I'm now worried about getting stuck on the side of the road, plus it seems to be very hard to find someone to work on this engine outside of big cities.

Thanks for any insight and information you might provide! I appreciate all the information previously shared in this forum.

What Next

11-14-2007, 12:32 PM

RV Mom the new ones are better but still fail quite often in the View and Navion according to the Yahoo View Navion group.

sikwan

11-14-2007, 12:39 PM

Welcome RVMom:

Two questions:
1. They said the replacement resonator has been redesigned. Is the replacement resonators the dealerships are using any good? Would they have replaced the plastic clamps that fail also?

Hard to say since there hasn't been a visual comparison to the differences in the AA or AB versions of the resonator. It's probably best for you to replace it with the metal one to avoid the pain of having to go through it again while on the road.

Mine is a 2006 140 and I haven't experienced the resonator cracking or getting misaligned, but I'm not pulling heavy duty loads and I don't have an RV conversion.

2. What other surprises might I expect with this engine? Should I be on the look out for any other typical failure mode or have any spare parts with me?

Nothing out of the ordinary other than the normal motor oil, transmission oil (get the transmission dipstick), coolant or maybe just water, especially for your model year. The 2.7l does burn oil like around a quart every 5k to 10k miles.

Another thing you might consider is to carry a spare serpentine belt, but even this may be a little on the stretch of things. An A/C compressor may seize burning up the belt, so an inexpensive serpentine is cheap insurance if your engine hasn't gone into a catastrophic failure (crankshaft breakage which is very rare).

I don't know how long you are on the road at times so this may be a big factor. I don't carry one personally (although I should) because I normally do the visuals and checks before leaving for a long road trip.

Great to hear that you're taking your kids on an adventure of learning! :bow:

BaywoodBill

11-14-2007, 05:43 PM

Hi RV Mom,

Unlike Seek, I do have an RV conversion, although not one with dual rear wheels and a slideout. I had the resonator fail under similar circumstances as you.

While I was irritated that the thing failed, I was grateful that the vehicle did not just quit, that it has been designed in a way that permits it to keep running.

When I got home from that trip I replaced the resonator with the aluminum one. The engine sounds different because the resonator is a muffler and a sort of accumulator. I think the roundish cavity of the stock resonator is better than the straight-through flow of the replacement and it's possible that the new resonator you have won't fail. At the time I wasn't aware if my new resonator was an improved one; I asked the service guy and he said it was just the same. Maybe the improved ones came out later.

In sum, however, now that you know the engine will continue to move you along after the resonator fails, perhaps you will be able to use the stock one and, if it does fail, take it with a grain of salt and adapt... it's not a catastrophe and it's a good learning experience for the kids.... how to deal with adversity.

The serpentine belt is a part of most engines these days. It can fail in any engine. I don't carry one because: 1. I'm not sure I would be able to change it. 2. I may not be able to store it in a place where it would maintain it's pristine condition., and 3. I hope to have it replaced by the dealer in a timely manner before it gets to the point of breaking.

SprintED

11-15-2007, 03:28 AM

Bill,

Agree about the serp belt...mine failed in the middle of nowhere...now If I had a spare I could have maybe got it on...BUT one of my idlers was seized so my new belt would have disintegrated in a few minutes.

I now carry a spare serp belt, AC v belt, and an idler pulley - this will allow me to try myself if I must, but more importantly I now have the parts necessary to enable any repair facility I happen upon...especially in remote locations. Also carry a full set of torx sockets (male & female) to facilitate repairs.

BTW Seek..if your AC seizes up and cooks your serp belt...having a spare wont help...the AC is still seized and i dont think rerouting to avoid the AC pulley is an option????:idunno:

Ed

sikwan

11-15-2007, 11:19 AM

BTW Seek..if your AC seizes up and cooks your serp belt...having a spare wont help...the AC is still seized and i dont think rerouting to avoid the AC pulley is an option????

Hey Ed...if it's seized, I'm hoping that the clutch can still be disengaged so that I could still use the pulley.

Good points on the tools. I hope I never have to go through your experience.

GaryJ

11-17-2007, 04:20 AM

RV Mom,

The latest version of the turbo resonator should have a Q5 on a small white sticker on the underside. Those that have failed have been Q3 or Q4. There have been no known failures of a Q5 on the Yahoo Winnibago View/Navion group.

Gary

sikwan

11-17-2007, 12:31 PM

RV Mom,

The latest version of the turbo resonator should have a Q5 on a small white sticker on the underside. Those that have failed have been Q3 or Q4.

Gary is right. I don't know how I missed it.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13401&postcount=16

RV Mom

11-20-2007, 10:13 PM

Thank you all so very much for the great tips and advice. I will started checking the oil; I just had my first oil change at 9800 miles. I will also see if I can find which version resonator I now have, and have it changed to the '5' if that is not what I got.

I am currently only carrying a spare oil filter and tire gauge. Though I'm sure I would not be able to fix anything, I will get the other items advised so that a shop might be able to repair my vehicle until I could get to a dealer if stranded. We are usually gone 2 to 4 weeks at a time, and I try to take the back roads instead of the interstates so we can see the country and find interesting spots. Some areas can be quite isolated though. My Winnebago is only 24 ft with no slide-outs, I am not towing anything, and I'm loaded fairly lightly so I don't think I should be straining the engine.

Thanks again for your insight and knowledge!!! I really appreciate it.

02 Sprinter

12-01-2007, 06:45 PM

Bill,I have an 02 Sprinter and read the same article on another Web site..So I Bought a New Alum. replacement..My 02 does not have one at all..Duh..So if you want a NEW one,I will sell mine for 70.00 and include the Shipping..If you do not want it,maybe some one else does?? Kind Regards,Gary Jestice(02 Sprinter)

sikwan

12-02-2007, 12:33 AM

BaywoodBill

12-03-2007, 06:54 PM

interstateflyer

12-14-2007, 10:08 PM

When the resonator failed on my 04 RV (hot day, steep grade, almost rear ended by a big rig) it slowed to 5 mph on the grade but managed 15-20 on flatter terrain.

I have a question: I recently installed a Scan Guage. If I were to clear the "resonator failure" code, would it drop out of limp home mode?

BaywoodBill

12-15-2007, 09:46 PM

I have a question: I recently installed a Scan Guage. If I were to clear the "resonator failure" code, would it drop out of limp home mode?

In our episode, we could stop the engine and wait briefly, restart, and get at least 10 minutes of normal driving before the LHM recommenced.

RoveRPh

01-15-2008, 01:40 PM

I think I've got a resonator gone bad. As the dealership is over an hour away, I'd like to diagnose it and repair it myself. Will a generic scan tool give me a "resonator failure" message? Also, if I replace the resonator (if that is the problem) will the check engine light reset itself once it senses that the problem has been fixed?

BaywoodBill

01-15-2008, 04:53 PM

Hi RoveRPH,

What symptoms are you experiencing?

AHAMAYfrank

01-15-2008, 05:05 PM

I had a 2004 140HC that had the resonator fail three times. I bought a Actron scan tool from Advance Auto Parts that would display a code (don't remember the #) that said "turbo failure" or something to that effect. I could clear the code with this tool also. When my warrantee ran out I replaced the failed resonator with one of the aluminum replacements. Before I turned the van in, I removed the aluminum replacement. I drove it for about 5,000 miles with no problems.

If you are interested I would sell it for $75 (with instructions) plus shipping. I also would part with the scan tool because it will not work with my 2007. I could provide the tool number this evening but I know I paid over $100 for it. Same deal for it ($75 +) if you are interested. I will pay for shipping if you want both.

Also, I believe the code will clear on it’s own if the problem is solved, but maybe someone else could confirm.

Good luck, Frank :thumbup:

RoveRPh

01-15-2008, 08:18 PM

Hi RoveRPH,

What symptoms are you experiencing?

The van starts fine, no smoke, doesn't run rough at all, but it only has about 50% power. The check engine light came on when this first started, and it's been about a week and 300 or so miles. I was hoping it was bad gas or something so I ran the van to see if it would sort itself out.

Sound like a resonator problem?

contractor

01-15-2008, 08:49 PM

The van starts fine, no smoke, doesn't run rough at all, but it only has about 50% power. The check engine light came on when this first started, and it's been about a week and 300 or so miles. I was hoping it was bad gas or something so I ran the van to see if it would sort itself out.

Sound like a resonator problem?

I have had the check engine light on for the temp sensor, o2 sensor, and failed resonator ... you cannot tell them apart without the code reader. Each one will make the truck a dog :eek:. I will say if you have good ears, with the cracked resonator I could hear a hiss noise when I drove under a load and in a confined area (i.e. up hill under a bridge, by a pickett fence) but that was subtle. Good luck but don't drive it like that for long because I was warned by the dealer that it could result in engine damage:wtf:.

skihunting

01-24-2008, 09:01 PM

Is this resonator on all 02 and up? Where is it located? I just lost all boost today.

sikwan

01-24-2008, 09:28 PM

Is this resonator on all 02 and up? Where is it located? I just lost all boost today.

Only 2004-2006 OM647 (http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Sprinter#Powertrain) engines.

It's located just underneath the turbo and is mounted/connected to the alternator from underneath.

BULBASOR

01-24-2008, 11:20 PM

Hey Seek,

Has your rsonator ever failed?

sikwan

01-24-2008, 11:21 PM

No not yet, but I'd like to check it before we go on another road trip.

BULBASOR

01-24-2008, 11:42 PM

I'm carrying the aluminum one on board as a spare, but I prefer the performance of the OEM unit. It's never failed me. Have you asked the good Doctor A if there is ever a chance for a new OEM version with better joints coming our way? Although, if the new NAV's don't have them, I guess we will all be on the aluminum tube eventually, right?

sikwan

01-24-2008, 11:51 PM

I guess we will all be on the aluminum tube eventually, right?

new one...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13401&postcount=16

...will go the dealer one of these days once I get a chance to check mine.

BULBASOR

01-25-2008, 12:01 AM

If you ever get a deal on those Q5's seek, let me know, I'll send you my money and we can get more.

skihunting

01-25-2008, 10:25 AM

Only 2004-2006 OM647 (http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Sprinter#Powertrain) engines.

It's located just underneath the turbo and is mounted/connected to the alternator from underneath.

I though I fixed it. I just lost all turbo boost pressure. I don't have scan tool to get into this. Air and fuel filters are good, turbo spins free, hoses and cooler look good, Just NO get up and go. Any ideas. This one is an 02

talkinghorse43

01-25-2008, 03:24 PM

skihunting

01-28-2008, 07:08 PM

Since the '02 doesn't have a turbo resonator, have you checked and cleaned the EGR valve? An EGR valve that's stuck open can certainly result in power loss because it will allow too much exhaust into the charge and there won't be enough oxygen in the charge to burn the fuel.

No I did not. I am new to the benz diesels. where is it located?

skihunting

01-28-2008, 07:09 PM

Since the '02 doesn't have a turbo resonator, have you checked and cleaned the EGR valve? An EGR valve that's stuck open can certainly result in power loss because it will allow too much exhaust into the charge and there won't be enough oxygen in the charge to burn the fuel.

Would'nt a stuck EGR make it idle rough? This think idles fine just NO tubo boost. It is like it has to fuel pressure but i am not sure how to check it.

talkinghorse43

01-28-2008, 08:20 PM

sikwan

01-28-2008, 09:09 PM

No I did not. I am new to the benz diesels. where is it located?

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1084&highlight=EGR+picture

nort

01-29-2008, 10:54 AM

I went to a dealer 100 miles away to pick up my new 04 with only 9000 miles last night. Traded in my suv and hit the highway only to reach a max speed of 60mph. I turned around and went back to the dealer only to return home in my suv. The techs had gone home for the night I test drove it Friday night in the snow and never got going in it to notice a loss of power. The dealer is going to fix and deliver it to me so I do not have make the drive. From what I have read, it sound likes the turbo resonator. Is there anything else that I should make sure I check before they return it to me? If I ask them if it is a Q5 replacement will they know what I am talking about? I still have faith that I will love the vehicle.

skihunting

01-29-2008, 12:33 PM

BULBASOR

01-29-2008, 01:33 PM

hey NORT

Make sure that dealer drives the van up to 84 MPH. Also make sure you find out from them what it was that was wrong.

HEY! WHAT IS THE TOP SPEED UNDER LIMP HOME MODE? ANYONE KNOW?

skihunting

01-29-2008, 01:42 PM

Don't think it would necessarily idle rough. As far as the EGR valve, there's probably info on this site, but I know that if you go to the following site:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sprintervan/

and look in "Links\DIY Help\Troubleshooting\EGR Valve Problems", you'll find out about the possible problems, where it is and what it looks like.

Just took my EGR valve off, I can see light through the exhaust valve. I know it is bad but not sure if this with cure my no power problem. 596.92 from my dealer!!!!:tongue:

KenB

01-29-2008, 02:27 PM

skihunting

01-29-2008, 03:06 PM

You can try to clean it, free it up, get it working, then make sure that the EGR Solenoid is working, put it back on and see if you've got a fix.

Just clean the valve/actuator mechanism end... not the electronic solenoid (except maybe the shaft coming out of it, gently).

KenB

The shaft seems to come out ok, but you can see light through the exhaust port plus this thing is leaking all over the place. I think I will do the old well it needs to be replaced anyway and go from there.

talkinghorse43

01-29-2008, 04:07 PM

If the motor operating the cam is OK and the linkage from there to the valve stem is intact, I see no reason to replace the valve. Just very carefully clean it with the recommended cleaner and a brush (I use an old toothbrush - I don't clean the motor operator or get it wet). While it is true that a new valve will not drip oil at first, it will eventually do so. I don't know how good you are with your hands, but I have modified the EGR valve on my '02 by drilling/tapping the existing drain hole under the linkage for 1/8" NPT and have added a nipple and a length of fuel hose (~3 ft) to direct the drip to the road. I have also sealed the plastic removable linkage cover with blue silicone gasket material and wrapped a cloth "wick" around the top of the drain hose to encourage the oil that collects in the lower endcap of the operating motor to follow the hose down to the road.

wagonpilot

01-29-2008, 04:11 PM

contractor

01-29-2008, 08:45 PM

My 2006 passenger van just had a Turbo Resonator failure at 18,800 miles. I was on vacation in California climbing the hill on I-10 west of palm springs at the windmill farm. Luckily it limped to the San Bernadino Dodge dealer where they fixed me up in about 40 minutes. They were awesome. I was lucky they were there. I will order the billet unit because I may not be so lucky next time.

I had to have my resonator replaced on my 06 also. I Did not buy an aluminum though.

The purpose of this resonator is to reduce noise ... can anyone in the forum comment if they've replaced the resonator with the aluminum one and if so, is there any noticeable increase in noise?Thanks.

skihunting

01-29-2008, 08:45 PM

Don't think it would necessarily idle rough. As far as the EGR valve, there's probably info on this site, but I know that if you go to the following site:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sprintervan/

and look in "Links\DIY Help\Troubleshooting\EGR Valve Problems", you'll find out about the possible problems, where it is and what it looks like.

I just wanted to thank you for the info. Bought a new valve today for 547.88 but it fixed the problem. I could have cleaned it but now it is new and hopefully won't leak oil for a while. It is sites like this that help people keep saine with all this new technology.

talkinghorse43

01-29-2008, 11:55 PM

Happy to be able to help.

BaywoodBill

01-30-2008, 04:25 PM

hey NORT

Make sure that dealer drives the van up to 84 MPH. Also make sure you find out from them what it was that was wrong.

HEY! WHAT IS THE TOP SPEED UNDER LIMP HOME MODE? ANYONE KNOW?

We were able to get 60mph on a level road.

BaywoodBill

01-30-2008, 04:30 PM

The purpose of this resonator is to reduce noise ... can anyone in the forum comment if they've replaced the resonator with the aluminum one and if so, is there any noticeable increase in noise?Thanks.

Check this thread...http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=868&highlight=turbo+noise

nort

01-30-2008, 05:02 PM

We were able to get 60mph on a level road.

Yep, me too, 60mph on level road unloaded. The dealer is putting in a new turbo on mine. Then they will have to drive it 100 miles to my house. This should give them ample time to make sure everything is running smooth.

contractor

01-31-2008, 01:04 AM

Check this thread...http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=868&highlight=turbo+noise

Thanks Baywood.

It sounds like there's a little more noise but not objectionable.

BULBASOR

01-31-2008, 01:17 AM

contractor

01-31-2008, 03:27 AM

When I ran the alum tube on BULBASOR he did not whine anymore and I did not like that because if you listen to all the big rigs on the road they all have turbos that whine. I put the Q4 plastic resonator back on BULBASOR and the whine returned and intake temps dropped too.

Bulbasor

Please elaborate on the "intake temperatures" because I don't believe I've heard that discussed before. Thanks.

BULBASOR

01-31-2008, 02:33 PM

ScanGuage Air Intake temp and also water temp,(fWT). I think the resonator creates a compression buffer between the turbo boost and the manifold. I came to that comclusion because there is more turbo lag with the original resonator than there is with the alum tube.

WARNING! LONG ANSWER! IGNORE THIS IF YOUR ALREADY BORED!

I was not aware that there was so much pressure in a turbo boost under load and I think the resonator was deliberatly designed as the 'weak link' in the system to help prevent catastrophic engine damage or manifold gaskets meltdown. (C'mon, it's basically an EXPANSION CHAMBER made of PLASTIC). I think under normal use the resonator helps regulat the sudden pressure changes in the manifold like a plastic balloon. That might explain why some don't have a clamp on the top connection, (although it's only the RV conversions that have posted a NO CLAMP configuration as far I know). I suspect it has somthing to do with weather your van was originally a passenger van, or a cargo van. Sportmobile told me they could not put in additional seats because the cargo vans do not have a floor to support seat belts and chairs that are DOT approved, and since they only use cargo vans: no seats. Yet, I see RV's with passenger seats, so I must assume those RV's are made from PASSENGER vans, not cargo vans, so they have the stronger DOT approved floor.

Like when I wanted to alter the computer chip they told me: you COULD get more power by pressuring the motor to deliver but what was the philosophy behind the design of the motor? Were the designers going for super performance or super reliability. It's a Mercedes trademark to over build everything so only half of it's capacity is ever really used. ie: ten quart oil pan - 85 MPH speed limiter - redundunt cooling systems - (fans) - and that turbo. I looked at the turbo in my friends cummings Ram truck and his turbo is about the same size as the turbo in BULBASOR.

Now I think the turbo on BULBASOR is kinda big for a little itty-bitty 5 cylinder engine.

All I know is that when I drive the long grades in Colorado or South Dakota or California, I CLOULD go 70 MPH all the way along with the cars but I don't. I drive by my temp guage. If the temp is rising, I back off until the temp starts going down. If the temp is down, I don't mind going a little faster. And, I notice when I drive like that, I'm right in step with all the big rigs on the road, and they seem to get where they are going just as fast as all those 70MPH cars because they don't stop for gas. I know, because the same cars will pass me two or three times a day when I'm on cross country trips.

It's only my opinion, but I think the SPRINTER was designed as a short take off and landing vehicle for 'sprinting' short distances all day long in Austrian villages between Herr Kaiser's bratwurst shop, the local pub, and the Liederhosen factory. The speed limiter tells me the designers were concerned about the way Americans use trucks as long haul high speed vehicals to get from California to Texas in less than 12 hours pulling thier 3000 lb toy hauler. I don't think the Sprinter was designed to run at 100MPH for 5 hours accross the Arizona desert under load without a break in speed, but I do think it's well suited to run 57MPH for 12 hours accross Arizona AND Texas without a break.

BULBASOR is used two ways:
*long haul cross country driving with two drivers non-stop from fuel station to suel station (550 to 600 miles - 10 to 12 hours).

*short take of and landing sightseeing buffalo in Yellowstone, antique shops in New Orleans, or winerys in Napa (.10 to 1 mile every 20 minutes).

I find the Sprinter exceptionally well suited for both, but especially the latter. My old Ram trucks would load up and get cranky under the second condition above, but BULBASOR seems to like the stop and go routine.

BaywoodBill

01-31-2008, 09:14 PM

Great comments, Bulbasor.

It's true that the intake air temp and water temp are lower with the plastic resonator than with the aluminum. On the other hand, I've never seen the water temp above 190 and I haven't a clue about what's desirable for intake air temp. It makes sense that the lower the intake air temp, the more power you can get. What is the threshold for valve damage?

BULBASOR

01-31-2008, 09:34 PM

Not sure the answer on the valves but our summer driving has included outside temperatures WELL above 120 degrees (and that's before the air even gets under the hood!). So you could be running along at a nice 190 degrees in the water jacket with an air intake under exhaust boosted turbo blast at a whopping 250 degrees at the manifold inlets. That's probably not a big deal at intervals of ten or fifteen minutes at a time but to run like that for a solid 5 hours has gotta be hard on the gaskets when aluminum and cast iron are each expanding in different directions. American cars are designed to burn up in 100 thousand miles so the bearings are thick and soft, (that's why old American cars smoke so much). I don't think there is enough slop in the German machine to take that kind of long term abuse. Another possibility is the turbo itself. It could be that the designers were trying to protect the turbo. I have noticed blogs where people have bought low mialeage T1N Sprinters used, and they all seem to suffer turbo problems. I can only assume that people who abuse thier Sprinters don't keep them very long.

blazindogs

09-19-2008, 05:25 PM

I am just back form picking up my 2005 Sprinter from the Dodge dealer. I've had the "Turbo Resonator" replaced twice and I only have 23000 miles on the van. The van was purchased to drive my dogs to dog shows and I find myself using my Edge instead. I am hoping that this it the last time and that the van becomes more dependable but that may be wishful thinking. I didn't see this post until today so I couldn't ask the dealer about using a metal resonator instead of the plastic one. I have, much like others, been sent into "limp home mode" far too many times. The two times that they replaced it, power went and it wouldn't come back even after a restart. The other 10 times the van would loose power and stall out. Not real fun when you are driving 70mph on a 4 lane highway and you have to get off the road immediately. I could restart the van and it would behave again. As many hits as I got when I googled "lose of power + sprinter", you would think someone at Dodge would be trying to eliminate this problem! :(

autostaretx

09-20-2008, 03:59 AM

The aluminum resonator replacement is not a Dodge/FL part... it's a third-party add-in from J.Riordin called the Turbo Eliminator.
$139 + $11 shipping from http://www.riordanco.com/our_products_catalog.htm#sprinterTurboResonator

(hmmm... there's another spot in that website that has the price as only $90.... but i'd believe the $139)

--dick

BULBASOR

09-21-2008, 08:37 PM

Bajabum

09-22-2008, 05:09 AM

Your van should not blow the resonator unless it's really heavy or climbing a lot of grades.

What kind of a rig do you have?? Is it a motorhome? Are you climbing hills at hight speed a lot?

You can buy the aluminum tube - I recomend that everyone carry either the aluminum tube or a Q5 resonator as a spare - but that still does not excuse brutal driving habits or overloading the vehicle.

If the van is pushed hard over and over again it's not going to last very long. You need to back off a little (if that's the way your driving it).

I'm sorry BULBASOR but I just can't go along with you on how delicate and sensitive these vehicles are. I just can't believe that a woman can't haul some dogs around in a Sprinter while keeping up with the flow of traffic on modern designed highways without the fear of breaking down. I don't know any other vehicle on the road that can't keep up with the flow of traffic on any freeway in this country. Do you really think she is overloading the van with her dogs? Do you really think she is a brutal driver? Are Sprinter owners required to drive on the shoulder while the rest of the world sails by?
I just don't think it is her driving habits or too many dogs. I wonder how she feels when you suggest everyone carry a spare, like she is going to do the repair work on the side of the road herself.
If these vehicles are not designed to travel the highways and byways of America what good are they? Diesel engines are made for hauling and pulling but not the Sprinter? Why drive a large cargo van and pay more for fuel and maintenance if your not going to haul and drive? What exactly are these things good for if you can't go the speed limit up the hills and you can only drive for several hours a day and just carry some toilet paper around in the cargo area?
I know I will probably get run off this forum for telling it like it is but that's life. I really like my Sprinter but there are some real problems with them that should be addressed and fixed. Everyone, myself included feel good about driving a Mercedes and like the looks of the Sprinter but they should be dependable and serviceable and they should live up to the Mercedes standard.
These things have been in service for many years in Europe right? Do they have the same problems with them over there or are we getting something different here in the states? I just can't believe Mercedes makes these.

rlent

09-22-2008, 10:57 AM

Your van should not blow the resonator unless it's really heavy or climbing a lot of grades. ........ <snip> ........ but that still does not excuse brutal driving habits or overloading the vehicle.
Nope - it doesn't :snore: ...... but neither does it it excuse:

A. a really crappy manufacturing process, or;

B. a faulty engineering design.

(Can we all say "injector hold-down bolts" ..... and then sing "Kum-bye-yah" ....... ?)

If the van is pushed hard over and over again it's not going to last very long. You need to back off a little (if that's the way your driving it).
Uhhhh ...... yeah ...... so ya figger drivin' 65 or 70 is "pushin' it hard" ...... or is "brutal" ? :thinking:

Uh-huh ...... yeah ..... :hmmm:

FWIW, diesel engines like to be worked to some degree ....... they like that waaay better than being run under a no-load condition. As an example, the manual for my '05 RAM (which has a Cummins Turbo Diesel) says that's engine break-in typically occurs in X miles ...... under normal operating conditions (which includes towing) ..... but that it may be prolonged significantly (up to double or triple the normal amount of miles IIRC) if you do not tow anything with the vehicle and place it under load.

........ yeah ...... "brutalizing your Sprinter" .... almost sounds like it ought to be some sort of domestic violence crime or sumptin' ...... :lol:

talkinghorse43

09-22-2008, 01:15 PM

FWIW, diesel engines like to be worked to some degree ....... they like that waaay better than being run under a no-load condition. As an example, the manual for my '05 RAM (which has a Cummins Turbo Diesel) says that's engine break-in typically occurs in X miles ...... under normal operating conditions (which includes towing) ..... but that it may be prolonged significantly (up to double or triple the normal amount of miles IIRC) if you do not tow anything with the vehicle and place it under load.

Is it bad to experience an extended break-in period? My '02 seems to have taken ~100k miles to finally break in (based on gradually reduced oil consumption - meaning gradually decreasing blowby). That's even after towing at 12k lbs GCVW from coast-to-coast. What's the downside of an extended break-in period?

BULBASOR

09-22-2008, 02:17 PM

Face reality.

It's got a 5 cylinder motor with a turbo. It's probably the biggest van on the road with the smallest engine.

It's not an American style vehicle. No V8 sucking gobs of gasoline with a few extra hundred horsepower blowing out the tailpipe.
No metal linkage from the gear shifter to the tranny: just WIRES
No cable or springs connected to gas pedal: just WIRES

This is not your grandpa's van.

I had three VW busses growing up and then moved on to Ford E150 and even had a Dodge Van (my favorite) for surfing at the beach. When i got a family the vans were too small and I needed to put a camper in a pickup truck. The expense of driving was the cheapes when I was young in the VW. The further up the food chain I got the more gas i was sucking down. Sure - the RAM truck was bullet proof! No big repair bills! I just spent all the money on gas! 2 grand a year! ON GAS! Add ONE repair bill like a water pump to that and now you have a truck that cost you 5 grand to run for ONE YEAR!!!

I got smart because I remembered driving the German Van, and I thought Hmmmmm. (Things that make you go Hmmmmm.)

I remember my first thought when building a motorhome was to go with the Rialta that used a VW van and front wheel drive. I had to go through the entire mind shift of considering a van that needed a lift station just to do an oil change. I had to wrap my mind around the concept of using GEARS to get up hills instead of horsepower. It was the front wheel drive I just could not accept - even though it created a better center of gravity than the Sprinter!

If you grew up driving a VW bus up and down the California coast you would understand the German concept of transportation. The Sprinter, like the Hindenberg, is more like a big huge empty blimp with a tiny fan to push it through the air. It's huge, but lightweight like a balloon. The cargo area is more akin to a covered waggon. And, just like the delecate covered wagons that pioneered the western United States I have managed more back country dirt roads and desert sand pits than I was ever able to float over in my old Dodge Ram Quad Cab.

Why?

SKILL! After all these years I have learned how to skillfully negotiate a vehicle over any terrain or mountainous steep grade with the proper selection of gears and gas pedal. I don't just horsepower over everything I encounter anymore. So now my equipment does not take a beating and everything lasts longer and I use very little fuel. That's the choice i get with a lightweight "Bulbous" balloon like vehicle with a tiny tiny engine.

Say what you want about the noisy little NAG1 tranny but let ME TELL YOU somthing! That little NAG1 picks gears as good as I do on a bad day! I can drive BULBASOR through the sand drunk as a skunk and he will pick the right gear, everytime, and get me out of the sand and back on the road. In my RAM i would be sinking into the sand and sitting for two hours to sober up before I couls get out of the dunes.

Europeans have been driving cars with tiny little engines for years and years because they were not as affluent as we Americans in the 50's, 60's, and 70's so thier cars had to use little fuel, (and thier fuel was costly too!). They had to learn to DRIVE thier cars with great skill because they only had half the horsepower. (Anyone who has owned a VW or MG would understand).

Anyway, if you run the vehicle at it's limits all the time it's going to break down. So, I take it easy on BULBASOR. I drive to the temp guage just like the guy in the Mac Truck next to me is doing. I realize I have aluminum parts under the hood where and American car would have cast iron - so I'm careful not to warp things with high heat and pressure.

I honestly think the Germans put in different resonators and clipped the speed to top out at 84 on the American Sprinter because they knew we would drive them pedal to the floor hour after hour and burn them up. Those Germans probably figured it was better to pop the top on your resonator than to blow your turbo out the front grill.

Aside from that these ARE the same vehicles they drive in Europe. No difference at all except American drivers and the lousy American fuel. (Fortunatly both of those are eisily rehabilitated).

For the fuel I recomend RL85
For the drivers I recomend Prozac

BaywoodBill

09-22-2008, 11:19 PM

The Sprinter, like the Hindenberg,

Oh, No, Not the Hindenburg (http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/flying/assets/hindenburg.jpg)!!!!

BULBASOR

09-22-2008, 11:42 PM

YES Ladies, I see the Great Prophet Richard of the Church of Altered Sprinters retuning to planet earth in a great cloud of HYDROGEN POWERED SPRINTERS with the faces of wombats on thier heads screaming: Look out! The Hindenberg had hydrogen in it and we bring Hydrogen in our Sprinters! People of the earth! Look out! !

50 years from now we will all be joking about the quirky things we liked about our Sprinters when the resale market for T1N sprinters is about 200 thousand dollars a unit.

It's gonna be the next 29 window VW Bus. Rare and expensive.

Where do you think the tern "Lead Zepplen" came from?

rlent

09-23-2008, 01:55 PM

Is it bad to experience an extended break-in period?
i wouldn't think so ...... :D:

My '02 seems to have taken ~100k miles to finally break in (based on gradually reduced oil consumption - meaning gradually decreasing blowby).
Same here on my '06 .... with similar mileage :thumbup:

That's even after towing at 12k lbs GCVW from coast-to-coast. What's the downside of an extended break-in period?
None .... that I'm aware of :smilewink: ..... the point was only that running a diesel engine under load is probably far, far better for it ..... than short tripping ........ or having it set around idling (neither of which allow the engine to reach normal operating temps ...... and allows wet-stacking and all sorts of nasty stuff :wtf: .....)

rlent

09-23-2008, 02:53 PM

Heya Bulb ...... :D:

I really don't disagree with where your coming from (..... other than the advocating the use mind-altering and debilitating psych drugs ....... bad, bad stuff .... will basically make your brain turn into chocolate Jello pudding .... causing ya all kinds of problems computer-tating ... and then you'll wanna go postal ..... like them kids out there in Colorado ....... where was it - Columbine ? .... or do a "Kurt Cobain" on yerself .... :crazy: ....... stay away from that stuff ...... it's even worse than runnin' Dexron IV ATF in a NAG1 ..... :eek:)

For it's size and payload rating, the Sprinter has a relatively small and underpowered engine.

A vehicle can be driven in a variety of ways - from easy like Grandma used to do ...... to being totally flogged. I personally believe that alot of the flogging comes from loading up hard on acceleration under a load (although that's not the only thing) ...... I'd say that stresses the engine and tranny pretty good ...... consequently it's one thing I try and avoid ..... light pedal and gradual acceleration, and hopefully nice smooth (not hard) shifts.

But once I get going, I roll ..... usually, in this day and age, I try and limit my speeds to between 55 and 62 mph ...... mostly for economic reasons ($2G a year on fuel huh ? :D: ...... I could spend that now in around a month ..... if it's busy .....)

Beyond that, running hard up steep grades under heavy loads, in high ambient temps, is another thing that's probably pretty hard on it - particularly if you are doing it in 5th gear - simply because the engine has no mechanical advantage.

As you do, I will manually shift it into an appropriate gear, depending on load, grade & terrain, and ambient temps. So I hear ya .....

But on the otherhand, I gotta go with Baja on this one - these things ain't crystal or china - they're made to be worked - but they do have a few flaws.

My Sprinter is a work truck - it isn't in the program for it be worshipped or overly adored - it's gonna get used up and consumed - hopefully over an extended period of time and a lot of miles ...... and after generating lotsa revenue. :smirk:

BULBASOR

09-23-2008, 03:36 PM

I honestly am not convinced that the Sprinter would be the best vehicle for heavy duty commercial use. I know that sounds crazy, but I have been driving trucks for a long time and if I were going to buy a truck with the main purpose of getting every last scrap of value out of it I would probably go with the basic Ford F series truck. And again, I have to defer to the public at large. The Ford Truck is still the most popular and most purchased car in the world.

It's a basic cheap truck that you can beat to death and it will cost you little.

I'm not really sure the Sprinter fit's in that category?

I'm sure DC knew they had a problem with the American style of commercial driver or they would not have brought us the NCV3! (More HP, More Cylinders, More GVW, and LESS MPG!).

The basic T1N was fine for over ten years overseas with all kinds of commercial drivers! Bakeries, flower shops, ambulances, tour buses, taxi's, then they bring the T1N to America and BAMM! It's falling apart!! Blown turbos, fuel rails detroyed by crap in the fuel, high temperaturs, boil overs, Sprinters TIPPING OVER!, warped injector hold downs, and a whole HOST of stuff!!

Chrysler WARNED the Germans that Americans would DESTROY thier van, and they were right. A plastic expansion chamber in front of the turbo eliminated the turbo abuse, and clipping the speed to 85 and manditory ASR stopped the roll overs, but the writing was on the wall - the T1N wasn't gonna cut it with the old Ford F150 crowd -thus - the NCV3 AND what's the BIGGEST complaint the NCV3 drivers have????? POOR MPG !!!!

It's a catch 22 - you can't win. You can only have one or the other - you can't have both.

I prefer to use very little fuel and just scale back the pressure I put on the truck - it's just like driving an old VW bus. Both have taken very good care of me.

If the day ever comes that I MUST have extream performance all the time every day I think I would probably consider the NCV3 or if I was really serious about having my motor home also be commercial I would probably buy a toterhome (MDT or HDT conversion). It's the only practical motorhome that can also do commercial duty.

9789

avid

09-24-2008, 02:14 AM

I prefer to use very little fuel and just scale back the pressure I put on the truck - it's just like driving an old VW bus. Both have taken very good care of me.

We refer to Saphira as a VW Bus on steriods. That she is!

AircooledJohn

09-24-2008, 02:23 AM

most American's are Steering Wheel Holders, not drivers, and that's why they tip them over and overrun the engine's capabilities (they are too busy sipping their 130oz soft drinks and texting their friends while they drive 90mph while not watching their gauges).

I have a sprinter, and I do not fault the van, I fault the #$)*#)(*& drivers we have here.

John

BULBASOR

09-24-2008, 02:26 AM

Man. I sure do like that front end ground effects (I think I already mentioned that).

BULBASOR

09-24-2008, 02:28 AM

Hey John,

I got BMW and Volvo in the garage too and niether one came with a cup holder. Did you know it's against the law to drink coffee or beverage while driving on the autobaun?

avid

09-24-2008, 04:36 AM

Man. I sure do like that front end ground effects (I think I already mentioned that).

Thanks, you did mention it before. I wonder if it isn't a ready made part if one only knew where to look. Do any European Carvan's have a front end like the Airstream Interstate? What about the Westphalia or James Cook?

KL2BE

09-25-2008, 08:21 PM

Man. I sure do like that front end ground effects (I think I already mentioned that).

Seems like just about all the RV makers put such a front-end on their vans, in conjunction with wheel-well fairs and running boards.
Don't know if each RV maker molds their own or if they all buy from a common supplier. A contact with one of the factories would likely get an answer. Try LTV, Pleasureway, Great West, Road Trek, Airstream and Gulfstream.

avid

09-25-2008, 09:39 PM

Seems like just about all the RV makers put such a front-end on their vans, in conjunction with wheel-well fairs and running boards.

Sounds like the same parts to me.

avid

10-15-2008, 03:36 AM

Man. I sure do like that front end ground effects (I think I already mentioned that).

Bulbasor,

My wife and I were savoring some wine in a RV park in the Sacramento Delta when my wife noticed some paper hanging by our exhaust. We thought it was something that we picked up on the road. It turned out to be the work order for Saphira's ground effects. They come from Altec Engineering in Elkhart, IN. No surprise there since Indiana is the RV capital of the World. :D: Funny how answers come along.

BULBASOR

10-15-2008, 01:33 PM

That's no coincidence - that's your Sprinter trying to talk to you. You better give that van a name - just like me it looks like you have a live one there. I cant really tell from the picture if your sprinter is a boy or a girl. Your gonna need to figure that out on your own. I did show your picture to BULBASOR and I think you might have a girl Sprinter there.

Anyway, my first Palomino Pop Up camper came from Elkhart! Your right! It's the RV capital of the world. (Everyone goes camping there too).

Lot's of good camping in Oregon near Ashland and the Rouge River - I wonder why there are not more RV companies there too.

avid

10-15-2008, 03:22 PM

That's no coincidence - that's your Sprinter trying to talk to you. You better give that van a name - just like me it looks like you have a live one there. I cant really tell from the picture if your sprinter is a boy or a girl. Your gonna need to figure that out on your own. I did show your picture to BULBASOR and I think you might have a girl Sprinter there.

We call her Saphira after the dragon in Eragon. (This was before I found Sprinter-Source and saw you also had been delivered a dragon.) Oh yes, she is definitely alive. I think it's something about European manufactured vehicles. My '74 Volvo also had a very distinct personality. Otherwise the Japanese cars I have owned/own seem to be machines, great machines but machines none the less.

There are great places to camp in Oregon we especially like to head to the South Coast.

vonnrey

11-14-2008, 04:11 PM

An update on the resonator problem we have a 2006 veiw with 4,600 miles on it and was heading out on a short camping trip and when we starting a incline on the freeway and had no power, it slowed down to about 25mph did'nt have a clue as to what was wrong. On flat road it would do 65-70 mph as soon we hit an incline the speed went down fast. Called the dealer and they said right of the bat it sounds like the resonator failed. Took it in and they replaced it with #5137154AC. So it looks like the third gen of the resonator. They did tell me about a 3rd party replacement I could get but said it would void the warranty and I should wait till the warranty expired. So now I'm trying to decide if I should get the 3rd party metal one and keep on board just in case. I know it would be harder to change it out on the road, but I thinking that would be better than being broke down in the middle of no where. Plus this is my first dsl and I have a lot to learn. It's a bummer to buy an MB and for it to have a major problem like this. Any thoughts. Thanks

jdcaples

11-14-2008, 04:54 PM

I don't recall anyone posting about a failure of the Q5 hardware (05137154AB) on their OM647. You posted the part number 05137154AC, which looks to be "even newer."

It basically comes down to a choice of "save the money, and run the new resonator with confidence," or "get the Riodan replacement because you don't trust the manufacturer."

If you're confident that you can replace the resonator on the road and if you want the backup plan, pick up at the aftermarket engineering.

Your post doesn't leave me with the impression that you know where to get it.

See this posting: http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3863&postcount=5
in this thread: http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3863

BULBASOR

11-14-2008, 05:35 PM

BULBASOR runs the factory resonator but I keep the metal eliminator on board. I have switched from the plastic resonator to the metal eliminator back and forth about 3 times. I went on a long trip with the eliminator and it seemed to me the truck engine temperature was about 5 degrees cooler with the original factory plastic resonator. I tried it out again doing around town driving and found the same result on higher heat temps when accelerating alot or driving fast (over 80).

That's why I run the factory resonator - it's keeps the engine cooler on long hill climbs. On the flat roads there is not much difference in temperature between either one unless your cruising over 80 then the plastice one runs cooler.

I have awitched back and forth several times because I wanted to experiment with the eliminator over many conditions. Since I have changed over so many times I am pretty fast and I can install the eliminator in about 5 minutes flat. It takes a little longer to install the plastic resonator. My dealer was very helpful and said I can run the eliminator if I want to and it will not void my warranty. I have taken BULBASOR to the dealer several times with the eliminator installed and have had no issues with the dealer. I had thier Sprinter tech look over the unit before I installed it and thier tech gave it an okay.

After all that I finally resolved many many months ago to use only the plastic (Q4) resonator that came from the factory. Why?:

BULBASOR is very very lightly loaded and was built at Sportsmobile with weight as the major factor in the design. Because of this when traveling cross country fully loaded for a three week trip with the entire family of three onboard we are still way way way below what an average motorhome would weight. Because I am not pushing a lot of weight uphill there is a lot less pressure on the turbo. I also like the idea of the plastic "balloon" resonator popping it's top instead of the turbo. I also like the cooler engine temps I get from the plastic internally baffeld resonator. And finally, I prefer the whining turbo sound of the plastic resonator to the "chirping" sound of the metal eliminator.

1. I run light so I have lees chance for failure - (If your in a heavy conversion this may not work for you).

2. I have the metal unit on board and I can change it on the road in less than ten minutes if the plastic resonator fails.

3. The metal resonator makes the engine run warmer. (I prefer to run cool).

4. I prefer the whining sound of the resonator over the chirping sound of the eliminator.

I recomend you buy the eliminator - ESPECIALLY if your in a heavy conversion. You don't need to install it but it can get you back on the road pretty quick in case of a failure. If your going to run the eliminator ALL THE TIME then use a cetane booster and back off on the hill climbs when the temp goes up. Also watch your MAP preassure. The big rigs go slow up the hills because they know what it's like to blow the top off a turbo because they were in too big of a hurry to get to the top of a hill.

Aqua Puttana

11-14-2008, 05:35 PM

If you're going to keep a spare why not just get an OEM resonator? It's cheaper than the metal replacement. As jdcaples indicates the Q5 model is improved. Although I don't really think the metal replacement voids your warranty, it takes care of that concern too. I should think an OEM could be found on eBay if you're not in a hurry. Just make certain it's a Q5 model (or newer?).

I recommend doing a search using sailquik and scangage. He has posted some interesting comments on how to improve fuel economy and keep the engine loads down by watching percent load and using the shifting options available to you. I don't have a scangage, but from my experience towing I agree with his observations. I also feel that many loaded Sprinters like RV conversions need to be using their transmission more to keep the engine happier. That should also help your turbo resonator concerns. Of course my opinion and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee in the big city.......with a senior discount. Hope this helps.

BULBASOR

11-14-2008, 05:51 PM

Oh yeah, I thought of that too and I was shopping for a Q5 for several weeks, (in fact I think I actually bought one and it's sitting in the my garage somewhere). I don't carry the Q5 as a spare for a really good reason: I do a LOT of cross country long haul driving in BULBASOR (long way from home).

We had reports from some owners of blowing thier Q4's at 10K and going to the dealer for a new Q5 and then blowing the Q5 2000 miles later.

That made me think about some really really knarlly hill climbes I made in South Dakota where it was like straight up for FIFTY MILES! I was thinking the whole time: what if the resonator blew out here?

I can replace the plastic one with another plastic one, but I still have 30 miles of hill climb ahead of me!! What if I blow out the SECOND ONE TOO??

How many plastic resonators should I carry to get me through a 6000 mile long trip??

Answer: none.

Instead I just carry one aluminum eliminator and if I blow out the Q4 I can get through the rest of my trip without worrying about blowing out another Q5. Now, I would still install the Q5 when I get home, but I would not want to rely on that little plastic Q5 as my only backup in the middle of nowhere with 12 thousand feet of elevation still before me.

BaywoodBill

11-14-2008, 07:12 PM

Pretty lengthy discussion of the warranty issue vis a vis the alternative resonator in this thread. (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3692&highlight=void+warranty)

Aqua Puttana

11-14-2008, 08:10 PM

I wouldn't argue at all with your logic for a heavily loaded Sprinter.

I carry a Q5 spare and an emergency repair backup kit consisting of ULTRA COPPER HIGH TEMP RTV SILICONE + one 1 1/4" tailpiece, but there's no reason to discuss that again. :) vic
Oh yeah, I thought of that too and I was shopping for a Q5 for several weeks, (in fact I think I actually bought one and it's sitting in the my garage somewhere). I don't carry the Q5 as a spare for a really good reason: I do a LOT of cross country long haul driving in BULBASOR (long way from home).

We had reports from some owners of blowing thier Q4's at 10K and going to the dealer for a new Q5 and then blowing the Q5 2000 miles later.

That made me think about some really really knarlly hill climbes I made in South Dakota where it was like straight up for FIFTY MILES! I was thinking the whole time: what if the resonator blew out here?

I can replace the plastic one with another plastic one, but I still have 30 miles of hill climb ahead of me!! What if I blow out the SECOND ONE TOO??

How many plastic resonators should I carry to get me through a 6000 mile long trip??

Answer: none.

Instead I just carry one aluminum eliminator and if I blow out the Q4 I can get through the rest of my trip without worrying about blowing out another Q5. Now, I would still install the Q5 when I get home, but I would not want to rely on that little plastic Q5 as my only backup in the middle of nowhere with 12 thousand feet of elevation still before me.

BULBASOR

11-14-2008, 10:41 PM

Ditto > I think for the average Sprinter including BULBASOR the spare Q5 backup resonator is more than adequate.

If I did not already have the metal eliminator I would just carry the spare Q5 and that would be good enough.

If I were driving a really heavy conversion and I were far away from home and I had already blown my Q4 I would be feeling a lot better if I had the eliminator on board instead of relying only on the Q5 to get me home.

On any average Sprinter like BULBASOR, the Q5 would be fine, but these big winnebagos like the 'view' or the 'airstream bubble top' or any of these rigs with ALL THE STUFF (you know, the rigs with every concievable electric thing and gizmo AND the generators to run it), well, those rigs are running to heavy to rely on a plastic resonator to get them through heavy cross country hill climbing towing a trailer in a van that was principally designed to 'Sprint" in stop - n - go deliveries full of sandwiches or donuts deliveries from one little Austrian village to the other. ("Hey! Hans! Whers my strudel?!").
:bounce:

rlent

11-15-2008, 01:39 AM

The big rigs go slow up the hills because they know what it's like to blow the top off a turbo because they were in too big of a hurry to get to the top of a hill.
Hmmmm ....... I was kinda thinking the reason they might get a running start and then go slower as they reach the crest of a grade was this:

Sprinter @ say 10K lbs gross weight ÷ 154 HP = about 65 lbs per pony

vs.

Big Rig @ say 60K lbs gross weight ÷ (400 HP) = about 150 lbs per pony

... seems like the Sprinter has a distinct power to weight ratio advantage ...... if you take a Sprinter 2500 the advantage is even greater:

Sprinter 2500 @ 8550 lbs ÷ 154 HP = 55.5 lbs per pony ....

..... of course I could be entirely mistaken about this ....... :wtf:

rlent

11-15-2008, 01:44 AM

BTW, it is interesting that it runs cooler with the plastic resonator vs. the aluminum one ..... I would have guessed it would be the opposite .... given how well aluminum dissipates heat ...... however I don't doubt what you are reporting ..... why it would is a bit of a mystery tho' ......

Aqua Puttana

11-15-2008, 02:29 AM

It is interesting isn't it.

Off the top of my pointy little head I would think that with it's little holes and chamber the turbo resonator adds turbulence and restriction to the air flow, which in turn reduces output horsepower. The aluminum replacement has little restriction as it's straight through.

Aluminum does generally dissipate heat better than plastic, but the aluminum replacement is relatively very short and has little external surface area to let the heat escape.

With the less restriction, if the horsepower is indeed higher there is more heat to dissipate. Much more than the better conductivity of the little billet aluminum piece could affect.

Actually, thinking further I'm talking about two different issues. Heat in the air supply system and heat in the engine. The conductivity of the aluminum piece would have little effect on the engine operating temperature overall. If the horsepower increases the engine cooling system is what will take the additional heat away.

Remember, my opinion and a dollar......
BTW, it is interesting that it runs cooler with the plastic resonator vs. the aluminum one ..... I would have guessed it would be the opposite .... given how well aluminum dissipates heat ...... however I don't doubt what you are reporting ..... why it would is a bit of a mystery tho' ......

BULBASOR

11-15-2008, 08:20 PM

It has nothing to do with horsepower - the word is TOURQE. The big rigs actually have rather small hourspower in comparison to the size of the engine but what they DO have is a ton of TOURQE.

The Sprinter can NOT pull thre times it's weight up an incline any where near as fast as a big rig. The big rig is pulling down WAY more torque and power than the sprinter but the big rig is pulling a lot of seight that balances out the equasion.

I really doubt any sprinter could beat a big rig tractor only with no trailer up a steep incline over a 5 mile run.

The tracto would easily do that pull empty at 100 miles per hour plus -

The Sprinter would have trouble maintaining a speed over 90 on a climb. (The Sprinter does not have the TORQUE)

Aqua Puttana

11-15-2008, 10:06 PM

//snip//

The Sprinter would have trouble maintaining a speed over 90 on a climb. (The Sprinter does not have the TORQUE)

Nothing better than ending with an indisputable fact. Are you hoping someone will bet on this one being that the USA Sprinters have an 85 mph speed limiter? Were you talking kph? It was a test right? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

sailquik

11-16-2008, 02:54 AM

Great Discussion here!
I would add that most of the TR failures seem to occur in heavily loaded Sprinters (RV conversions or lots of cargo in the back), going up long grades.
The main difference between the 18 wheelers and the Sprinters is the 18 wheelers have lots of gears, and use them.
Even the automatic trans 18 wheelers downshift at alot less load that the Sprinter will if left on it's own.
So...... if you have a ScanGage II (or something similar) and can keep track of the % load on your Sprinter's engine and drive train, you can
reduce the overall load, get better mileage up grades, reduce your operating temps significantly, and probably just about eliminate the chances
for TR failure!!!!
How...... shift down to a lower gear whenever your RPMs start to drop below 2500 rpm or the % LOAD (LOD on the Scangage II) starts to get above
90%.
If you must, you can slow down a few mph to reduce the %LOD even further, but there is no reason to "LUG" a Sprinter at < 2500 RPM. This is very hard on the entire engine and tranny package, causes everything to run at significantly higher temps, and probably is the major factor in TR failures.
Many do not seem to understand that the Sprinter in top gear "locks up" straight through the tranny. If you wait for the tranny to downshift itself
the %LOD will be way beyond MAX (99% LOD on the ScanGage II)
Many seem to think that a Sprinter T1N 5 cyl common rail diesel really likes to run at 1800-2200 rpm. This is true if you can run the engine this
slowly and keep the LOD % at < 65-70%, but it's simply not the case if you are seeing > 75% LOD.
Less RPM, in top gear, with the %LOD off the scale, lowers your mileage to < 4-5 mpg.
Downshifting one gear (MANUALLY) usually lowers the %LOD to around 75% and increases the MPG to 7-8 mpg (2 x what you can get lugging along
in top gear.)
You can watch the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) with the ScanGage II as well, but on my Sprinter (2006 3500 158" WB) watching the % LOD is far more accurate as to how hard your drive train is working, and you get the best mileage with the minimum LOD
(often after having downshifted manually so the engine RPMs are in the 2800-3300 range).
I'm wondering what gage jwt is using to measure the difference in temperature (5 degrees) with the plastic TR vs the alumium TR eliminator?
I would almost bet that running the Sprinter in top gear, with the aluminum TR eliminator, would show a significant increase in tranny fluid
temps over downshifting when the %LOD => 90%.
My experience suggests that manually downshifting early lowers the coolant temps significantly more than 5 deg.
Roger

Altered Sprinter

11-16-2008, 03:46 AM

An excellent write up Rodger:clapping:
Richard

BULBASOR

11-16-2008, 04:40 AM

sailquik,

No truer statements have I ever heard on this post than the ones written by your post on the TR and LOD on the 5 banger T1N. Excellent write up and every Sprinter owner should adhear to your words that are truly pure wisdom.

The scanguage LOD factors the difference between the accelerator position and the RPM. If the accelerator position increases and RPM does not > the LOD goes up. So, the key is to get the highest possible RPM with the least amount of accelerator, thus, the lowest LOD.

Another way to skin the cat is to shift down, that too will deliver higher RPM with less accelerator pedel, but the catch is that you loose miles per hour, and thus, miles per gallon.

We have all struggled with the 2200 RPM scenario and short of hooking up a full diagnostice computer under load I'm still trying to find that elusive 'perfect' RPM to run at on flat road that gives the highest MPG to speed ratio. We usually see a loss of efficiency above 2300 because of the added wind compression at speeds higher than 64 MPH.

Sometimes I think the MPG will be the best slower than 2200 rpm or 54 (60 indicated) miles per hour, BUT - it's not really true sometimes because while I'm burning my fuel quite efficiently I'm still not getting enough miles behind me to make it worth my while! Sometimes you need to go a little faster so you get more miles behind you before that gallon of fuel is burned.

It's a VERY tricky balance!

I have often wondered what is more accurate on the Scanguage: the MPG or the LOD.

I wish I could make BULBASOR automaticaly set his speed to stay at a particular LOD on the guage, and then flip a switch to make him automatically set his speed to stay at a particular MPG.

I would experiment both ways and see which setting really is a better indicator of best fuel efficiency.

I woulds also be curious about engine heat: will engine heat be the lowest at the highest efficiency? Or is there a "sweet Spot" where MPG is best at a slightly higher or lower temp?

It all sounds crazy but when you trying to drive a truck that you plan to get 300 thousan miles out of you tend to think constantly about wear and stress.

All I can say is that the very best thing you can do for your Sprinter is drive it like you described, with the LOD at a tolerable low of 80 or less and I also recomend cetane boosters. I started using them about 6 months ago and I am shoked at the improvement of MPG. I am now going over 650 miles on a tank and still hitting the station with fuel in the tank.

Altered Sprinter

11-16-2008, 05:16 AM

All I can say is that the very best thing you can do for your Sprinter is drive it like you described, with the LOD at a tolerable low of 80 or less and I also recomend cetane boosters. I started using them about 6 months ago and I am shoked at the improvement of MPG. I am now going over 650 miles on a tank and still hitting the station with fuel in the tank.[/quote]

Two great write up in a day, I think our forum is advancing past the stage of negativism and is leaning towards the postoperative, of learning.
Bulbasor has worked out how the manual sequence of an automatic can work to your advantage,
Fuel additives, at last:bow: My rants of the past have at least found one customer who is seeing the advantage of the longer term positive aspects of added fuel economy. I'm happy to see the great write up's by two Fantastic members, who's desire is to promote with writing their experience, to contribute to others on our forum. Others have too, and duly noted.
Thanks guy's.
Richard

sailquik

11-16-2008, 07:22 AM

Hi bulbasor & Altered Sprinter,
My posts often sound like an advert for the ScanGage II, but I think this device is nearly mandatory to getting good mileage,
max effciency, and the longest life from any Sprinter based vehicle. I am not in any way associated with Scan Gage!
I learned this very quickly one day.
I had just gotten the ScanGage II, and was driving around with my 3500 SHC fairly lightly loaded (about 7500 lbs. GVW on a Flying J Scale).
Then I put my 7' x 14' x as tall as the Sprinter cargo trailer (estimated weight on that trip about 4500 lbs.) = Total Combined Vehicle Weight (CVW)
around 12,000 lbs.
My mileage went from 19-21 mpg (based on doing the math at every fill up to 3 decimal places) to 12.5 mpg as soon as I attached the trailer.
WOW! That got my attention.
I wasn't using the % Load (LOD) feature of the ScanGage that day.
In the days that followed, I started using LOD...MPG..RPM...MPH on the ScanGage II.
In 3 or 4 days of all day travel I managed to improve the mileage to 16-17 mpg. (That's and increase of 36-44%.....significant I'd say)
Since then I had the factory cruise control installed.
Now I find that the cruise control, working with the Engine Control Unit (ECU), gets me even better mileage than I can get with my foot on the pedal.
As far as losing speed, when you downshift, my Sprinter doesn't lose any speed at all, and I get better MPG in the lower gear (one click down from
top gear) because the engine is now turning 2800-3300 rpm.
Getting better mileage in a lower gear does not make much sense, but try it.
It only works when the LOD exceeds 75%.
I suggest/recommend the ScanGageII for all Sprinter owners because without such a device, Sprinter drivers have no idea what the engine and drive train loading actually is!
Without this information, they simply push down the pedal and burn way more fuel than is necessary.
Without some knowledge of the % engine load, they actually run their Sprinters in a manner that's not good for the vehicle, causing issues like TR failure
tranny overheating, engine overheating, other turbo issues..... in effect, they are running their Sprinters at way beyond 100% load for long periods of time.
Sure, their Sprinters "slow down" going up grades when heavily loaded (or with a big RV package on the back), but there is a very valid reason their Sprinter slows down.......the grade is sufficient to pull every bit of available power out of their Sprinter drive train in top gear and the engine is working at absolute max. Same thing applies in big trucks.... due to their weight, the horsepower and torque is completely "used up" so they need to shift to a lower more efficient gear where there's enough power available to climb that hill keeping the engine in the 75% loading range.
The normal response in American drivers is what they learned in a huge V8 gasoline powered non-turbo RV, push down the gas pedal...... sort of works in a gas engine RV, but does not work at all in the Sprinter.
Why?.... adding more fuel, without having the Sprinter in the most efficient gear, just burns fuel and doesn't keep the engine in it's range of max. efficiency.
Downshifting (manually again) as soon as the cruise control can no longer maintain the current RPM (caveat here is this is in the 50-65 mph range) drops the transmission down one gear to increase it's efficiency, the RPMs go up, the speed stays the same, and the MPG almost doubles over what you'd get if you kept the %LOD at => 99% (where most Sprinter RV drivers unknowingly drive a lot of the time due to the weight and wind load of their vehicles).
Add in that the coolant and transmission fluid temps drop significantly and you have a situation that will get you the best long term efficiency and
the full value that a Sprinter can provide in say 500k miles.
I only suggest that Sprinter drivers (RV or loaded here) take a little trip with the ScanGage II and I would guess most of them will save enough on fuel alone that they pay for the ScanGage II in < 30K miles.
On their "little trip" with the SGII they will learn so much about what's going on, what they can do to "lighten the load", how they can use their Sprinter
more efficiently.
Installing the SGII is as simple as finding the OBDII port, plugging in the connectors to the SGII, finding out where you want to install the readout.
That's it! I put mine SGII on top of the dash on the LH side as I can see it without looking away from the road. Calibration/Program setup is very easy.
Roger

Aqua Puttana

11-16-2008, 01:22 PM

Too bad the Sprinter doesn't come with a Tow/Haul button that could adjust the transmission response when loaded. Between the engine computer and transmission computer the info needed must already be available, just a matter of programming. Maybe as an after market product a super Scangage that could be plugged into the ECU and TCM would have Tow/Haul to actually shift at the correct times. Once that was available every RV conversion should come with one, not just Sprinters.

This recent discussion has been very informative. I think one more post by sailquik will overcome my non-gadget, frugal nature and have me ordering a Scangage. They should put you on the payroll.

topless

11-16-2008, 02:31 PM

Altered Sprinter

11-16-2008, 04:03 PM

Red line RL2 Summer
Red line 85 plus Winter Upper cylinder Diesel ignition improver
Improved lubricity, cetane improver 85+ Winter grade there are three off.
Three and half years latter, the van has had not one single issue not one.
Richard

sailquik

11-16-2008, 04:08 PM

Hi Aquaputtana,
Yes, some sort of "Tow/Haul" mode, that auto shifts the transmission at 75% would be a very useful tool for Sprinter RV conversions and heavily loaded
cargo/cab-chassis versions.
Just a quick tip I've found to work.
If you have a ScanGage II, you can shift "by the numbers" even with cruise control engaged. I was a little hesitant to try this, but once I found out that
the Sprinter handles it nicely, I do it all the time.
If you are cruising along at < 70 mph, and the LOD starts to exceed 75%, simply tap the shift handle to drop it down to the next lower gear.
Your speed will stay the same, the RPMs will increase to match the same speed, and the LOD will decrease around 10-15%. MPG will amazingly increase if the LOD was going to be over 85%!
Just remember to shift back up again when the LOD gets back to < 70%.
With my Sprinter lightly loaded (7500# GVW) I find that cruise control and the ECU can maintain 55-60 mph with the LOD @ 60% +-4%.
If I encounter headwinds, this goes up to 65-70%. If I get 25 knots + headwinds, I sometimes downshift to keep the LOD down < 75%.

I think there are a couple of "myths" about diesel engines that cause alot of confusion when applied to the Sprinter.
First, older non turbo diesels used to turn very slowly, and the huge turbo diesels in ships, tugboats, train locomotives, and at diesel/electric generating plants
still turn fairly slow RPMs.
Big 18 wheeler diesel trucks only turn about 2400-3000 rpm max. They will turn faster, but the idea is to keep them in their max. efficiency range (50%-75%
of the total available horsepower/torque).
Sprinters will turn 4000 rpms or more quite easily, but again, they begin to lose efficiency at around 3500 rpms, so running them at 4000 rpms isn't good for
power/efficiency/MPG/longevity.
But keeping a Sprinter at 2200 RPMs is even less efficient and may contribute to the problems/issues we see on these forums so often.
As far as failure of the turbo resonators (TR) I think we would find that heat is the major culprit here, and that by downshifting to keep the engine at around
75% max. load, the turbo resonator will run much cooler than trying to force feed fuel to the engine at 99% + LOD for long periods of time.
I think the MB engineers didn't take into account that most American drivers are accustomed to big 400 cu. in. gas engines that run at around 2000-2500 rpms and
only use about 30% of their available HP/Torque most of the time. So our American driver typically has tons of power/torque in reserve for climbing hills, heavier loads.
The Sprinter just does not have that kind of power in reserve, so it needs to be driven more like an 18 wheeler, with the driver more involved in downshifting when
the available power in top gear is not enough to maintain your speed.
Since I see an awful lot of big gas and diesel motor coaches/RVs broken down along the side of our interstates, I'd guess that there are some the same issues with
these vehicles as well. We tend to blame it on the design of the vehicle, when in at least some cases it's more a driver (or driver training) issue.
Roger

Aqua Puttana

11-16-2008, 05:44 PM

rlent

11-16-2008, 08:50 PM

It has nothing to do with horsepower - the word is TOURQE.
Yeah ....... not exactly ....... you might wanna revisit physics 101 .... and take a refresher:

And by the way - the word is torque - not tourqe (.... uh ..... is that pronounced "tur-kay" ?)

See if this sheds any light on the subject for ya:

"If you've been around motorized vehicles for any length of time, you have probably been exposed to the great torque vs. power debate at some point. If not, it goes like this:

"Torque is what makes a bike accelerate, not power."

"Wrong."

Torque and power are inescapably linked by the fact that horsepower equals torque (in ft-pounds) times RPM divided by 5250, - so people who talk as if they are independent are full of it. If you have a given torque curve for an engine, you have the horsepower curve also. Knowing how these two numbers work with each other lets you poke through some of the BS you might read."

Ahhh ... yeah ....... what he said. BTW, you can Google "horsepower vs. torque" if you wish - all sorts of good stuff out there that you might find interesting ......

The big rigs actually have rather small horsepower in comparison to the size of the engine but what they DO have is a ton of TOURQE.
A ton ...... really ?

I always thought it was measured in foot-pounds or newton-meters generally ...... I suppose if ya had a really big engine - say a 600 HP Cummins ISX or a CAT C15 ....... ya could (almost) measure it in foot-tons (fractional) .... and have it be meaningful ..... :D:)

The Sprinter can NOT pull thre times it's weight up an incline any where near as fast as a big rig.
Never said it could (not sure exactly what your point is here .....) ..... what it can do however (when at or near it's max GVW) is smoke a big rig going up hill when the big rig is loaded (at it's max GVW it would be 80K lbs) ...... been there, done that ..... it's what I affectionately like to call "the cure" ..... for idiot, cowboy semi driver drivers who like to tailgate a vehicle less than a car length off their bumper on their way down a grade (trying to build speed to climb the next one)

You get on the radio and ask them politely to get off your ass ..... and then if they don't ..... you just wait until they are stuck behind ya climbing that next grade (boxed in) and ya let off the accelerator, slowing down about say 5 or 10 mph ......... if they are loaded you will walk away from them going up the hill when you accelerate ..... and it ain't because they are holding back .....

The big rig is pulling down WAY more torque and power than the sprinter but the big rig is pulling a lot of seight that balances out the equasion.
What is seight ? I'm guessing "weight" (since the "w" is close to the "s")

I really doubt any sprinter could beat a big rig tractor only with no trailer up a steep incline over a 5 mile run.
Well ..... duh ...... what do you figure that big rig tractor (ya know ... the one with that 600 HP/2000 ft lb engine in it) weighs .... when it has no trailer behind it ?

If you guessed around 23K lbs you'd probably be somewhere in the ballpark (..... for a conventional, with 2 drive axles, and a large sleeper) - now, lessee ..... less than 3x the weight of a Sprinter (2500) ....... but with about 4x the power .....

22K Lbs Gross Weight ÷ 600 HP = about 36.5 pounds per horsepower ....... whadda ya know ..... looks like a distinct advantage to the that big rig ......

It's that power to weight ratio thang again ....

You can call it horsepower ... or torque, if that tickles your fancy ....... it's still the same thing - power to weight ....

Of course, gearing does figure into the real world performance of it ........

The tractor would easily do that pull empty at 100 miles per hour plus -
That's sort of a meaningless statement really ..... all depends on the grade, the specific tractor, engine config, and the transmission selection, and how the final drive ratio is spec'ed .....

The Sprinter would have trouble maintaining a speed over 90 on a climb. (The Sprinter does not have the TORQUE)
Yeah ? .... well like Aqua said ...... the Sprinter does have a speed limiter ..... :tongue:

Ya figger that might have something to do with it ?

At any rate, the reason why loaded big rigs don't go fast up hills is because they can't .... not because they are worried about "blowing the top off a turbo" ...... believe me, if they could run loaded up grades at 80 mph, they would ...

BTW, which part of the turbo is the top ?

Altered Sprinter

11-17-2008, 12:42 AM

Sailquik,
Thanks for even more tips. Since reading your posts I've been more confident about relying on my feel and shifting down when I think it needs it.

Altered Sprinter,
Your posts convinced me to try Red Line products some time ago. I've been using RL Diesel Fuel Catalyst because that's all I've found locally. Any comments about the RL Catalyst for a 2004 Sprinter as opposed to what you just recommended?
Aqua Puttana
Re: RL Catalyst Although the thread has a collation of factors that relate to the subject above, it may pay to go into a separate thread,as either a new thread or pick up on an older thread as to which redline product would be best suited for Winter fuel supplements.
Other wise the thread will end up being fragmented.
Torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque) Worth looking at Guys.
Richard
10476

rlent

11-17-2008, 04:25 AM

Torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque) Worth looking at Guys.
Richard,

Some good data in there ..... but way, way too much unnecessary pocket-protector crud obscuring it in that link than one really needs to understand the basic idea as practically applied to an internal combustion engine and a vehicle - better to go here (which is one of the sources cited by the Wiki link you cited) for a clean statement and an easy understanding:

Power and Torque (http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm)

Altered Sprinter

11-17-2008, 05:38 AM

Hi reint Sprinter specific
Not getting into this one haven't the time.
Sprinter is based on max torque at Nm 4 of at rpm ranging from 1400-2600
HP & rpm @3800rpm max
changes between 5 speed auto with or without lock up convector option. two variables.
Final axle ratios many of. Link to both trans options and engine options of HP
Transmissions based on HP rating and RPM range lets say the 318 cdi six speed Manual or five speed auto.bearing in mind the US variant 318 is de-tuned. Thus a lower peak torque range at max HP at 3800 RPM.
Length of van Height and carrying capacity.single wheel rim extra wide single rim and or dual based on 16' rims each will give a different variables, none will be identical.
I wish you guys had our options of many vans available as similar to the Sprinter with optional Manual transmissions which leave a standard auto for dead in its tracks as to the above postings, or sequential transmissions and full automatics with differential options of standard diff Differential lock options etc the list is huge and then drop into a front wheel drive van, and t to the possiable variables, change again.
Placing a Sprinter 4 versions with 44 variants in a singular range available, one is never the same as the other, to match and compare you need the Transit by Ford, both front and rear wheel drive, Iveco or daily By Fiat, The Renault Master, the Citroen, GM Opel,Euro Toyota. etc.
Add suspensions and the dynamics will change once again.
Place the complete series of Sprinters available in all configurations on the Bonneville salt flats and duplicate the RPM to to a set MPH and I guarantee not one will be the same as to removing Temperature Elevation out of the equation as to Sprinters in different locations road conditions even ,Wind factors.
Not an argument as such to any of the above commentary, But from an out side of the window perspective! of looking in. just to place my thoughts with out prejudice to any. fuel plays a critical part depending on what has been mentioned in part or full , that one represents it's own mathematical formula based on Elevation speed temperature and prevailing wind conditions of the day.
Additives plays a part in the cetane values of the engines operation to give max HP and a slightly lower operating temperature, reducing strain on the engines deliverance of power through the X Transmission through the drive shaft, to the rear axles for final RPM x unknown. In part the turbo can be negated by some of the commentary above from members at the lower speeds you actually don't need it as to the momentary principles of Gravity actually pushing the van forward ''Flat surface of Course" rpm is drastically reduced. thus saving fuel.
Think 35 MPG US it can be done, with 3/4 of a US ton aboard.
Hit the mountain passes the simple rule of Moment or Moments of force comes into play with physics and as to the mathematical formula of Elevation versus Gravity with the push pull principle as to the balance and weights, of the center of gravity of your Vehicle.Suspension plays the mechanical forces on this one as the leading role for stabilization to rotate an object about on a same axis of leveling the forces of push pull out.
Just as a Force is a push or pull.A torque can be thought of as a twist. Torque is also called moment or movement of force.
I'll go crawl back into my sprinter, and be quite now.:shhh:
Thanks Richard
PS No speed limiters or Resonators to restrict turbos at high RPM =hill climbs makes a huge impact on the operating driving conditions your under.unfortunately your stuck with the last two.

rlent

11-17-2008, 01:20 PM

Richard,

I totally get what you are saying - yes, there are a myriad of variables that can come into play that will effect a vehicle's performance - no argument from this quarter on that. It can be highly complex in the details ....... but it is also extremely simple in the fundementals ....... all at the same time.

No need to make the simple more complex than it needs to be.

I certainly have no qualms with Sailquick's observations (great posts) regarding LOD and shifting early(ier) to keep the engine/transmission combo within it's optimal powerband and to maintain sufficient mechanical advantage to do the work at hand - better for fuel mileage and easier on the engine. (Although, based on the OM647's power/torque curve, I'd say that keeping the engine above 2000 to 2200 rpm, rather than 2500 rpm might be the most optimal - but again as Sailquick points out, it is dependent on load)

I would almost bet that running the Sprinter in top gear, with the aluminum TR eliminator, would show a significant increase in tranny fluid temps over downshifting when the %LOD => 90%.
Well I dunno ..... given that when the transmission is in 5th gear (or 3rd or 4th if memory serves .....) and has the converter clutch locked up, you no longer have a fluid coupling but a direct, mechanical coupling I'm guessing that you would see a decrease in transmission fluid temps as a consequence (afterall, that is largely the purpose of having a torque converter with a lockup clutch ....... and is so stated in the service manual ......)

I would bet money though that you would see a rise in engine coolant temps if the engine is loaded .... because in a Sprinter with a NAG1, 4th gear is a 1:1 ratio (no mechanical advantage), and 5th gear is 0.83:1 (mechanical disadvantage for the engine) ....... and of course since the transmission fluid is cooled via the radiator, that alone can (and does) cause a rise in transmission fluid temps, irrespective of any heat that is generated in the transmission itself ...........

KL2BE

11-17-2008, 04:35 PM

Richard,

Although, based on the OM647's power/torque curve, I'd say that keeping the engine above 2000 to 2200 rpm, rather than 2500 rpm might be the most optimal - but again as Sailquick points out, it is dependent on load ...........

Does anyone have a copy of the Power/torque curve for the OM647 :idunno: ?
I would love to see the curve posted :popcorn:.
A very useful tool in getting optimum performance :hmmm:.
Even better if anyone has a fuel-use / RPM / curve.
My Yanmar 4JH2-TE (63 HP) marine turbo-diesel came with a fuel consumption curve which invaluable in optimizing speed and fuel economy.

BULBASOR

11-17-2008, 04:44 PM

If the 647 is the engine with the elephant's trunk then I would like a power curve chart too.

Does anyone have any?

sikwan

11-18-2008, 12:05 AM

If the 647 is the engine with the elephant's trunk then I would like a power curve chart too.

OM612 (http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php/OM612) and OM647 (http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php/OM647)

I'd like a power curve chart too, for the Wiki (http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php/Sprinter). :smilewink:

BULBASOR

11-18-2008, 02:55 AM

"A very distinguishable aspect of the OM647 from the very similar OM612 predecessor is its intake manifold: The OM647 has an Elephant Trunk"

Retrieved from "http://sprinter-source.com/wiki/index.php/OM647"

So, where is the chart?

sikwan

11-18-2008, 04:32 AM

So, where is the chart?

Well, if you read my previous message, I did say that I was looking for one too to add to the Wiki. :smilewink:

Btw, maybe Richard to dig something up...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4819&highlight=316

Altered Sprinter

11-18-2008, 04:43 AM

I have both But lost the file on which is which :cheers:
but which engine! 5-inline or the V6?
I'll do my best to night to work out which one correct.
Me I'm hiding in my Van Plotting:laughing:
Richard:thumbup:

sikwan

11-18-2008, 04:48 AM

but which engine! 5-inline or the V6?

Both if you could please. :cheers:

I'll do my best to night to work out which one correct.

If you could post it, it'll certainly be a good game at guessing which one is for which. Thanks!

Altered Sprinter

11-18-2008, 04:52 AM

OK After dark! Both Richard

Altered Sprinter

11-18-2008, 05:27 AM

Just to keep you interested for a few moments, as to the next generation of power curves
MB Sprinters 4 pots yes four pots in a row. OM 651 CDi
Richard
10520

10521
automatic seven speed triponic sequential transmissions, Fuel efficiency increased 20 percent.

Altered Sprinter

11-18-2008, 10:33 AM

I CAN'T FIND WHERE I HID THEM, Will look at the work computer tomorrow. :bash:
HOWEVER EURO 316 CDI
10522
US THIS IS STILL THE PROBLEM! WHAT CURVE? WHEN THIS IS STILL BEING SHOWN ON YOUR VANS?

10523
IT SHOULD ACCORDINGLY TO MB READ..IF it was a five-in line???
115 kW 156 HP@3800 RPM
300Nm@1400-2400 rpm
Total Displacement 2685 cc

128cdi is based on a 218cdi back the front? But its for a V6 2008 as shown on the photo?
can any one with the current NCV V6 verify what is written on your radiator cowling

Jon: If your reading this re-turbo look at the veins.The angle of the vein is connected to both rpm and torque curve..Garrett?
031-System%20components%20-%20Turbocharger%20with%20boost%20pressure%20sensor .pdf (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Richard/Local%20Settings/Temp/OM642-intro/031-System%20components%20-%20Turbocharger%20with%20boost%20pressure%20sensor .pdf)
017-Subsystems%20-%20TurboCharging.pdf (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Richard/Local%20Settings/Temp/OM642-intro/017-Subsystems%20-%20TurboCharging.pdf)
026-System%20components%20-%20Fuel%20rail%20pressure%20sensor.pdf (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Richard/Local%20Settings/Temp/OM642-intro/026-System%20components%20-%20Fuel%20rail%20pressure%20sensor.pdf) see if you can match this to star. I knew I should have stayed in the van:rolleyes:
Richard

Altered Sprinter

11-19-2008, 03:59 AM

Thanks reint, said I should stayed in the van:bash: PDF will open now, Yes I'm a dummy OK.
Richard

10540

10541

10542

crdsaleen

02-16-2009, 09:46 PM

The turbo plastic resonator obviously was a bad invention and the aluminum was a perfect fix for the problem but to tell you the truth the turbo should have just come with a longer neck that the hose would slip onto like all the other turbos ever had. there is no need for a pipe or resonator or mounting bracket,just a properly designed turbo.
S55 AMG

BULBASOR

02-16-2009, 10:23 PM

It is an odd addition to the pressure side of the turbo path. Considering the complexity of the turbo and it's small size I would also wonder about the forces being put upon the turbo in really heavy use conditions. The bottom end of the Sprinter motor is really solid - the 5 cyl short block with it's huge oil capacity and history of longevity is about as bullet proof of a base power plant as you can get.

It's all this other "Swiss Watch" stuff the Germans placed all around the basic block to increase it power and efficiency with the least amount of fuel waste and weight that has me convinced that there is indeed a use for the resonator.

When you consider the amount of intricate "stuff" the Germans designed that all bolts on to this little block you just can't make the assumption there was no reason for the resonator. I think the purpose of the resonator is probably valid, (whatever it is) but I think perhaps the real probelm is not the resonator but the material it's made from.

You just scratch your head thinking: "Why plastic?" :thinking:

It's a mystery - I sure would love to have a chat with the guy who designed the resonator so we could all hear what he was thinking.

Andrew

02-25-2009, 04:37 AM

Has anybody heard of the "updated" plastic resonator that dealers are using in warranty repairs? I am told it is a new part number.

I would like to pre-emptively change my resonator: Should i trust the dealer with a plastic unit or go for the metal part?

Thanks

BaywoodBill

02-25-2009, 05:41 PM

As far as anyone has posted, the Q5 version is the newest and it seems it is prone to failure in heavily-loaded vehicles, such as the RVs with cabovers and slide-outs. But it seems to fail less frequently in those vehicles.

The metal substite is good for not failing but it does not accomplish the same functions as the plastic device.

NYC SPRINTERS

02-25-2009, 08:22 PM

turbo problems 99% out of a 100% its your turbo resonator!!!

Andrew

02-26-2009, 02:11 AM

BaywoodBill:

So, you'd advise trying the latest version (Q5)?

What functions won't the metal unit do?

Thanks,

Andrew

keithh

04-10-2009, 12:36 PM

On my recent trip from Western MD to MW Florida, i blew out my 3rd T/R in 32k miles on my Navion RV, once again early in the trip in the West Virginia Hills. This time I limped it to Ocala Fl, some 900 miles to a Sprinter/Dodge dealer because it was Sunday and noone is open on Sunday! After a quick 1 hr repair I was on the road with full power. The Service rep made no comments on the 3rd T/R failure, when I asked "is this common". So this time I found this site and have read every post and it is very rewarding. it answers many of my questions like why it happens, and how it can be fixed with relatively little effort. I leave back to Western MD Apr14, so I ordered a ScanguageII and an aluminum replacement to be here by the 13th. I crawled under my Navion RV and removed the old(new) Q5 resonator that was just installed several hundred miles ago. I wanted to see what tools I needed and how difficult/long it was. Pretty easy except for the two stock bolts holding the bracket. I may try to replace them with standard metric head bolts that I can grab with a bigger ratchet wrench. I can do this without a jack, so i'm prepared for the next failure". I trying to decide whether to run home 1200 mi in 22hrs (with a trailer) with the plastic or aluminum resonator. I do run fairly my Navion fairly hard because that is why I bought that rig - to run non-stop - 1200mi with the creature comforts all self contained, and I we are 2 adults and 3 labradors as well. My trip is all flat up to Columbia SC then from there I start getting hills and mountains thru Virginia, WV and MD. I do shift manually, up and down, and I think with the ScanguageII I can monitor the load and back off when it just gets too high. Anyway - thanks to all for all of your research on this chronic problem, and the many opinions and solutions. keith

BULBASOR

04-10-2009, 02:11 PM

Is there any way we can get a definitive answer from Dr. A as to the function of the Turbo Resonator? (Is a resonator common on other turbo deisel engines?)

Why is it there?

rlent

04-11-2009, 01:22 AM

Well, I'm certainly not Doktor A ..... nor have I ever been voted anything in association with the Chippendales ....... but try this link and see if it sheds any light:

2006 SPE Awards (http://www.speawards.com/2006Awards/powertrain/44.html)

BULBASOR

04-11-2009, 02:09 AM

That's it, I'm tearing it off and replacing it with a piece of pipe.

Altered Sprinter

04-11-2009, 03:52 AM

That's it, I'm tearing it off and replacing it with a piece of pipe.
You'd better be quick! Dino has lunch on his mind, and your tail pipe looks inviting:laughing:
Richard

Hit The Road Jack

04-19-2009, 04:11 PM

That's it, I'm tearing it off and replacing it with a piece of pipe.

I will also rip out my second TR'r...:rant:

Decisions, decisions...:hmmm:...Metal or Plastic

You can see the resonators seam opened up approx 3/16" to the right above the hose clamp

keithh

04-19-2009, 10:55 PM

As a followup to my previous post - I made the 24hr trip (1250mi) from Marco Island FL - Deep Creek Lake, Western MD last Tuesday. I ran with the Q5 resonator and had the scanguageII mounted on the dash. I was running heavy with my Navion RV pulling a twin axle trailer loaded with furniture. I came up 95 to DC, avoiding my usual mountainous route thru Charlotte, Wytheville VA to Morgantown WV. I kept my average speed around 60 - 65, and using the ScanguageII, I shifted and decelerated based upon the LOD reading. The trip, albeit long, was successful with the Q5, and the aluminum eliminator and wrenches stayed in standby mode in the event I had my 4th blowout! Thanks to all for the knowledge in this thread, because with my $300 investments, I had the peace of mind on this trip that I wasn't going to be limping hundreds of miles to a dodge dealer to get my engine running correctly again. keith h

rlent

04-20-2009, 02:19 AM

What functions won't the metal unit do?
As far as I know the only thing that the metal one won't do is provide the quieting of the turbo whine that the plastic one provides. There was at least one report (Bulbasor I believe) that the vehicle seemed to run slightly hotter with the aluminum resonator eliminator. While that might be possible, I'd want to see some more anecdotal reports or testing done before I bought into that hypothesis totally - mainly because the ability of aluminum to dissipate heat is pretty high - harder to imagine it makes the vehicle run hotter, though I guess anything is possible.

Hit The Road Jack

04-20-2009, 02:47 PM

Just ordered a Q5 'Plastic-not-fantastic' from a not-so-local Dodge dealership for around $50.00 including shipping__no tax!

My local Dodge dealership wanted $75.00 and admitted to Q5's also popping their tops...:yell:

Just don't wanna chance the metal version screwing up a perfectly good Diesel engine...:cry:...may-be next time...:eek:...after all this varment is actually tagged 'Intercooler Resonator' for purchase...:professor:

rimjaine

07-02-2009, 11:17 AM

Howdy,
I've driven mine about 75 miles since resealing the resonator seam with JB Weld. So far I still have the check engine light on, with good power indicating that the seal is holding the boost pressure. Guess I should carry the JB Weld in the van in case the seam lets go again.
Seems like they could have found a better sealing glue for the resonator after 5 design changes, maybe the design changes are for something else.
Update, my check engine light went off, odometer read about 107 miles after the JB Weld fix. I've read other comments that check engine light goes off after a series of starts, another one that it went off after about 150 miles.
Later, Jim
P.S. Clean all oil residue off the seam with alcohol before mixing and applying the JB Weld.

BULBASOR

07-02-2009, 02:02 PM

I just never got around to putting the alum pipe on and I just got back from a 2500 mile trip. No problems with the Q5, but I can tell you that if that Q5 so much as peeps the tinyest leak I'm yanking it out of there.

I think people that run very heavy pulling trailers up steep grades need to get Scan Guage 11 before they trash the resonator. The resonator is popping it's top because of repeated hig pressure exposures. I think if you monitor your MAP and try as best you can to avoid a lot of MAP events over 26 you may be able to end the resonator problems.

Or, you could just trash the resonator and put in the pipe - but if you do I highly recomend you put in a scan guage 11 and monitor your MAP. The turbo is a wear item and consistintly high MAP will make other issues so it's good to monitor your MAP.

I'm torn:

With the plastic unit I can be lazy monitoring the MAP and if I'm in a hurry and want to run 82 MPH up hills all day long and put too much pressure on my manifold I know the resonator will blow before anything else 'expensive' does.

Or, I can use aluminum and never worry about a blowout but that leaves it to me to monitor my MAP and engine temperatures to avoid stress to the engine.

One or the other.:idunno:

Still have the original that lasted 36K, (now I'm on a Q5)

14948

RedG

07-03-2009, 04:31 PM

A couple of quick questions. I'm ignorant of the MB diesels so please be patient, (I'm a Duramax man. :wtf:) Yesterday my dad, who owns a 2007 Roadtrek MH which is on an 06 sprinter chassis with the MB straight 5, called me about 100 miles from home saying he had no power and could hardly climb hills and he had to manually downshift to get any speed. Not knowing anything about these engines, I assumed it was probably a clogged fuel filter. (The engine has 10k miles on it w/original filter). I drove up and put a new filter on it. We started it and went for a drive and it ran great. After parting our ways, he got about 20 miles down the road and it happened again.
He limped it home and started it again this morning and it's running fine again.
After searching on this site, I'm wondering if it's the resonator.
My questions:
1. He has not gotten a check engine light. If it's the resonator, will it leave a code that can be read? If so, what code?
2. Can I tell by looking at the resonator if it's split?
3. Any other way to verify the resonator is the problem?

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

sikwan

07-03-2009, 04:46 PM

1. He has not gotten a check engine light. If it's the resonator, will it leave a code that can be read? If so, what code?
2. Can I tell by looking at the resonator if it's split?
3. Any other way to verify the resonator is the problem?

1. In this thread (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6306), the check engine light was intermittent.
2. Yes.
3. No other way except to remove it (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4185). It shouldn't be too hard.

It could be other things, but start with the resonator as that seems to be an easy item to check without having any codes.

RedG

07-03-2009, 05:11 PM

1. In this thread (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6306), the check engine light was intermittent.
2. Yes.
3. No other way except to remove it (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4185). It shouldn't be too hard.

It could be other things, but start with the resonator as that seems to be an easy item to check without having any codes.
Thanks for the links. Great help!

BULBASOR

07-03-2009, 06:57 PM

The Sprinter will start acting up with loss of power before any check engine lights come on. To force and error code you almost have to drive the van really hard up a hill to make the sensors freak out and sent an error to the computer. Once that happens there will be a little cartoon picture of a motor appear under the speedometer and you can press the CODES button on the Scan Guage and read the P codes.

If you turn off the engine, and wait a few minutes the system will reboot after restart and run fine againe like nothing happened but that little cartoon motor will not go away once it comes on.

Then you go out and drive some more - and the power loss should kick in again whithin a few miles -

THAT, is a leaky resonator in most cases. It's starting to fail.

My Q4 developed a leak after going over the grapevine in the winter at night - 64 degrees on the bottom at 80MPH and engine temp at 190 and within 5 minutes and 6 mles going up up up I got to black ice, 34 degrees and engine temp of 165 all still holding 75 MPH and down hill engine temp went to 150 and I hit the bottom at 85MPH racing a jeep wrangler for the fast lane (beat him, too!) and ran my MAP up to 40 with a frozen resonator.

That pretty much started it to leak.

I can drive BULBASOR like a race car but in those conditions I should use the straight pipe instead of a resonator.

Buy a resonator an put it on - it's only 50 bucks, and the power loss will go away immediatly if that's the problem. If you don't want the dealer to reset you codes for you they will reset on thier own after about 140 miles.

Seek knows what the codes mean so they are very helpfull too.

george_seebeck

08-01-2009, 10:23 PM

This is no JOKE. I was 200 miles into Canada when the turbo resoantor failed on an '05 Sprinter. I was towing a boat. The vehicle came to a complete stop on a steep grade. There was no space to pull off on either side. It took 5 hours to arrange for 2 wreckers. One to haul the Sprinter and one to tow the Boat. Insurance covered the Sprinter tow to the "Certified Sprinter Service Dealer" in Kelowana, BC, Canada. It cost $400 to tow the Boat. After 2 sessions, costing more than $400, it was evident they could not diagnose the problem. I then towed the boat down the river and across the Canadian border into the US. There I secured the boat and proceded to the Dodge Dealer in Spokane, WA. There they replaced the turbo resonator in 2 hours at no cost because the vehicle drive train was still under warranty. After all this I cancelled my trip to Alaska, which we had been planning for 2 years. The vehicle now appears to be using about twice the fuel it was using before the incident. I plan to take it to the dealer for a check up next week. Also, I plan to purchase an aluminum resonator.

Hoppingmad

08-02-2009, 12:47 PM

All right, for those of us just learning diesal
I understand the q5 is allegedly better then the previous version, and there is an alum pipe to replace the q5, that sounds sturdier but could damage the engine.
What does the resonator do? I'm pretty sure its not a wastegate that regulates boost pressure by dumping exhaust gases

Aqua Puttana

08-02-2009, 01:29 PM

//snip//
What does the resonator do? I'm pretty sure its not a wastegate that regulates boost pressure by dumping exhaust gases
Sprinters do not have waste gates. The pressure is controlled by vanes.

Using search I found much discussion for you about the turbo resonator here:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4185&highlight=resonator&page=5

As with many of our threads it ambles a bit in places, which doesn't bother me a bit.:thumbup:

You may want to skip to post #42 and #44. I know there's a method to direct a link posting to a specific post number. Sorry, I have not learned it yet. Hope this does some good. AP

Jrmorgan

08-04-2009, 03:13 AM

I have cut a Q4 resonator in half, check it out, this should answer a lot of questions,,,,
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7255

John

rimjaine

08-16-2009, 02:57 AM

As far as I know the only thing that the metal one won't do is provide the quieting of the turbo whine that the plastic one provides. There was at least one report (Bulbasor I believe) that the vehicle seemed to run slightly hotter with the aluminum resonator eliminator. While that might be possible, I'd want to see some more anecdotal reports or testing done before I bought into that hypothesis totally - mainly because the ability of aluminum to dissipate heat is pretty high - harder to imagine it makes the vehicle run hotter, though I guess anything is possible.

Howdy,
I've installed the turbo resonator eliminator, I haven't driven it that far yet, but my observations so far indicated that it's not any noisier than the OEM resonator. My 2005 sprinter Leisure Travel RV seems to run at the same temperature as before. IMHO whether or not it runs hotter depends on ambient air temperature combined with the vehicle's load and speed, in other words the vehicle should run at the same temperature if all other conditions are the same.

I tried using JB Weld, it lasted for a little over 500 miles and then split apart again, I think the JB Weld could be made to work if it could be applied thick enough to withstand the vibration. I've personally put my hand on the alternator bracket (with the engine running) that the resonator is supported by and the vibration is quite drastic to say the least, too much for thin plastic and glue, perhaps a solvent thermal weld type joint comparable to pvc pipe & fitting would withstand the vibration better.

Anyway, I feel confident that I'll no longer have any worry over the turbo resonator problems.
Later, Jim

stp57

08-16-2009, 03:05 AM

Yea Jim,
I couldn't hear any difference either, but then again, my wife is always telling me I need a hearing aid!:shifty:
Steve

Howdy,
I've installed the turbo resonator eliminator, I haven't driven it that far yet, but my observations so far indicated that it's not any noisier than the OEM resonator. My 2005 sprinter Leisure Travel RV seems to run at the same temperature as before. IMHO whether or not it runs hotter depends on ambient air temperature combined with the vehicle's load and speed, in other words the vehicle should run at the same temperature if all other conditions are the same.

I tried using JB Weld, it lasted for a little over 500 miles and then split apart again, I think the JB Weld could be made to work if it could be applied thick enough to withstand the vibration. I've personally put my hand on the alternator bracket (with the engine running) that the resonator is supported by and the vibration is quite drastic to say the least, too much for thin plastic and glue, perhaps a solvent thermal weld type joint comparable to pvc pipe & fitting would withstand the vibration better.

Anyway, I feel confident that I'll no longer have any worry over the turbo resonator problems.
Later, Jim

BULBASOR

08-17-2009, 03:13 AM

I think the resonator was something thrown in later because "all diesels have a resonator now" like the power stroke and the Cummins and the other "consumer grade" diesels I guess MB felt it was a necessity for Americans because it's not on the other vehicles in Germany and Europe.

It appears that it is just a poorly designed 'muffler'. I think it does add more turbo lag and thus decrease manifold pressures and temperatures slightly, but the more I think about it the less I am convinced that that had any part of its design.

The cross section view from rlent is the nail in the coffin I think for the turbo resonator. Its interior construction is so close to a muffler to be unmistakable.

Hoppingmad

08-17-2009, 11:15 AM

"it's not on the other vehicles in Germany and Europe."

On the European version they have an eliminator, or just a 1 piece hose?

Georgedj

08-25-2009, 12:40 PM

Im on my 6th TR in my 2005 sprinter 2500. I just found this site and the dealer doesnt seem to help so where could I buy a better one from

Cat Fan

08-25-2009, 03:17 PM

Does anyone know if the 2008 models have this problem? And can someone tell a mechanically-challenged person where the turbo resonator is located? Thanks.

TimJuhl

08-25-2009, 04:31 PM

GeorgeDJ,

Have you had to replace a Q5 version of the TR? The sticker has a little Q5 in the corner and you probably never got a look at it but I thought I'd ask. Is your Sprinter a RV conversion? It seems like you've gone through a bunch of TR's - care to share the details?

Some guys have gone with a turbo resonator eliminator - enter "turbo eliminator" in the search function and read all about it. It is available at http://www.riordanco.com/our_products_catalog.htm#sprinterTurboResonator

Good luck!
Tim

Smoky Pond

09-24-2009, 02:00 AM

I had the trurbo resonator fail on my 2006 a few weeks ago. I had a Q5 as a spare, so I replaced it on the side of the road (actually while at a highway rest stop). Not wanting to go through that again, I purchased the aluminum resonator eliminator. Unfortunately, my turbo turns out to be quite loud without the silencing action of the original resonator. It makes a screeching sound during acceleration or while under load while climbing a hill. It sounds like a fan belt or power steering belt squealing. The pitch of the sound does not change with RPM. This leads me to believe that it may be the sound of the turbine blade tip speed going supersonic. From inside the vehicle it's extremely annoying. From outside of the vehicle, you can hear it more than a block away. Makes the vehicle sound trashy.

I decided to go back to the Q5 resonator, but before doing so, I made a few changes to it. I applied cyanoacrylate (Super Glue) all along the seam, then covered the whole seam with a thick layer of J-B Weld 2 part epoxy (see picture below). To test it, I plugged the ends with a couple of expanding plugs. One of the plugs was drilled and tapped to accept a 1/8" pipe fitting for an air line. I then applied 20 PSI of air, which I'm certain is more boost than the turbo provides. The seam held. So I put it in my powder coating oven, set it to 140F, and let it cook all night with the air on. No issues.

I'll probably fix the original Q4 resonator as well for a spare. But I doubt I'll be needing it.

Matt

http://www.smokypond.com/gallery/download/7174-2/IMG_0931m.JPG

Hoppingmad

09-25-2009, 10:09 AM

I don't remember anyone else making a noise comment like that about the eliminator!

Smoky Pond

09-25-2009, 12:06 PM

I don't remember anyone else making a noise comment like that about the eliminator!Don't get me wrong here. It's not so loud that it hurts your ears, and it's not as loud as an actual power steering belt slipping/squealing. But it's VERY noticeable above the road and engine noise. It's not continuous either. Only occurs while the engine is under a "medium" load: normal acceleration from a stop; right after the transmission shifts (while the engine is loaded from the sudden change in gear ratio); and while climbing a hill. It does not occur during light loading or extremely heavy loading. It will not make the sound under full-throttle acceleration.

Like I said, it sounds LIKE a slipping belt, which in my opinion makes this rather expensive vehicle sound sort of trashy. Since I can hear no additional turbo noise caused by the use of the eliminator (or actually, the lack of the resonator), I have to assume that what I'm hearing is at least one of the reasons that MB used the resonator to begin with.

Matt

Ciprian

09-25-2009, 12:55 PM

I then applied 20 PSI of air, which I'm certain is more boost than the turbo provides. The seam held.

I have seen on a few occasions 21 psi of air, but not for long.

Smoky Pond

09-25-2009, 03:02 PM

I have seen on a few occasions 21 psi of air, but not for long.Thanks. I was tempted to increase the pressure to 25 PSI. I was sure the seam itself would hold, but I was afraid that the body itself might burst.

jmattice

09-26-2009, 03:30 PM

I don't remember anyone else making a noise comment like that about the eliminator!

I posted on the screeching sound a couple of monhs ago. Not pleasant...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6895

Smoky Pond

09-26-2009, 05:32 PM

I posted on the screeching sound a couple of monhs ago. Not pleasant...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6895I just went over there and read some of the comments. I would not call that sound a "hissing," "throaty" or "mean" sound. Maybe those sounds are there with the eliminator, but I can't hear them above the screeching sound. Sounds more like an old POS car to me!

-Matt

abittenbinder

09-26-2009, 08:59 PM

I just went over there and read some of the comments. I would not call that sound a "hissing," "throaty" or "mean" sound. Maybe those sounds are there with the eliminator, but I can't hear them above the screeching sound. Sounds more like an old POS car to me!

-Matt

Matt, Please give me a call on my Sprinter Hotline. 412-366-6165 Doktor A

Smoky Pond

09-27-2009, 08:39 PM

I posted on the screeching sound a couple of monhs ago. Not pleasant...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6895Jack. What did you end up doing about the sound? Are you just "living with it?"

I put my modified resonator in today. All I can say is wow! Silence is golden!

Modified Turbo Resonator (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63892&postcount=210)

-Matt

jmattice

09-28-2009, 12:07 AM

Matt:

I am living with it. But I am a bit surprised that I was not warned to expect it.:frown:

hunsiar

12-05-2009, 04:42 PM

MBenz did not intentionally trade a "slight noise difference" for a "huge decrease in reliability of this particular part(turbo inlet resonator)". I'm sure the failures came as a surprise, disappointment and costly warranty penalty (In addition to resonator replacements I suspect more than a few turbochargers were removed and replaced at the dealership level before the resonators were identified as a probable cause of boost loss). A posting by one of your customers (on the yahoo sprinter site) contradicts your claim that "all of our customers notice little if any difference in turbo noise".
The posting from yahoosprintergroup: "I have one installed on my Itasca Navion motorhome, quick easy
installation, but there is a definite turbo noise between 2k and 3k
rpms, enough to make me want to install the latest plastic version and
keep the aluminum one for a spare."
While I commend you on your efforts and your entrepreneurship I remain unconvinced by your assertion that MBenz squandered time and Euros on an insignificant and "slight noise difference". And on a commercial vehicle. Doktor Andy

Thanks for pointing out this difference that some motorhome owners of the 2.7L MB engine may experience with the resonator eliminator instead of the actual MB part. Many RV owners travel with animals, creatures that are much more sensitive to sounds not heard by the human ear. I know that the largest U.S. engine mfg of OTR engines had to redesign their turbo when it was discovered truck driver's animals refused to travel with them because of the unbearable scream coming from their blower. This could well be the reason why the resonator was developed by MB - all engine makers put their product through a comprehensive sound study and, while no person may notice the difference in the sounds with and without the resonator, your pets may have a totally different opinion. Please understand, this comment is not based on knowledge from the maker, just from a conversation with a sound engineer from a competitor engine maker. Take it for what it's worth.

Smoky Pond

12-06-2009, 01:57 AM

Thanks for pointing out this difference that some motorhome owners of the 2.7L MB engine may experience with the resonator eliminator instead of the actual MB part. Many RV owners travel with animals, creatures that are much more sensitive to sounds not heard by the human ear. I know that the largest U.S. engine mfg of OTR engines had to redesign their turbo when it was discovered truck driver's animals refused to travel with them because of the unbearable scream coming from their blower. This could well be the reason why the resonator was developed by MB - all engine makers put their product through a comprehensive sound study and, while no person may notice the difference in the sounds with and without the resonator, your pets may have a totally different opinion. Please understand, this comment is not based on knowledge from the maker, just from a conversation with a sound engineer from a competitor engine maker. Take it for what it's worth.You don't need any special hearing powers to hear it. I heard it immediately, but my wife was the first to speak up about it. "Sounds like a junky old car" were her exact words. It is a very objectionable sound. Sounds like a slipping fan belt. In order to not hear it, you'd have to have a hearing problem. From all the posts on the subject, it is obvious that not all Sprinters are affected in this way with the eliminator. Don't know why. But those complaining have a very legitimate gripe.

If we weren't already into the less than 20 degree snowy weather here, I'd re-install the eliminator, take my Sprinter for a ride while recording the interior ambient sound with a Sony digital memo recorder, then post the before and after results on YouTube.

abittenbinder

12-06-2009, 02:47 AM

And here is the original posting in this thread that prompted my response (shown below):

Originally Posted by jriordan:
"Doktor Andy is absolutely correct that the eliminator is not a resonator. I also agree that MBZ probably thought the design of the plastic device with the resonator chamber (that chamber is what makes it larger) would reduce the turbo whine, but just as Suba says, all of our customers have noticed little if any difference in turbo noise after they install the billet eliminator. Andy, we all agree MBZ makes great vehicles. I just think in this case they miscalculated the value of a slight noise difference versus the huge decrease in reliability of this particular part". jriordan

MBenz did not intentionally trade a "slight noise difference" for a "huge decrease in reliability of this particular part(turbo inlet resonator)". I'm sure the failures came as a surprise, disappointment and costly warranty penalty (In addition to resonator replacements I suspect more than a few turbochargers were removed and replaced at the dealership level before the resonators were identified as a probable cause of boost loss). A posting by one of your customers (on the yahoo sprinter site) contradicts your claim that "all of our customers notice little if any difference in turbo noise".
The posting from yahoosprintergroup: "I have one installed on my Itasca Navion motorhome, quick easy
installation, but there is a definite turbo noise between 2k and 3k
rpms, enough to make me want to install the latest plastic version and
keep the aluminum one for a spare."
While I commend you on your efforts and your entrepreneurship I remain unconvinced by your assertion that MBenz squandered time and Euros on an insignificant and "slight noise difference". And on a commercial vehicle. Doktor A

When I wrote that response to Riordan I knew that MBenz was concerned with much more than reducing "turbo whine". Several owners have reported a wide range of offensive sounds and resonances.

The screeching belt is one of the more common reported side effects of the resonator eliminator and is an interesting phenomenon which I have been also observing in various Sprinters in relation to exhaust system integrity. Doktor A

crissyfield

03-31-2010, 12:26 AM

Just wanted to report that I am on my third resonator. I have a 2005 118" passenger sprinter with 60K miles. First time I blew out the TR climbing a long hill to Tahoe in the summer of 2008. I limped to a nearby sprinter mechanic in Nevada and they replaced the TR under warranty. Last weekend I was driving up a long hill from San Luis Obispo, it was mild weather, 70 degrees, on HWY 101 and my vehicle went into limp mode. In both cases I was driving about 65mph and the rpms were in the mid to high 2000s. I limped back to San Francisco...LM actually allowed me to maintain 55-60mph on flat road.

I pulled out the TR myself suspecting it was the culprit. I sealed one end of the TR and blew through the other with my mouth and confirmed a fairly large leak was present at the notorious seam. I installed an eliminator TR. Hopefully this will be the last of my TR problems.

AircooledJohn

03-31-2010, 12:34 AM

Still winter there Smoky? :popcorn:

You don't need any special hearing powers to hear it. I heard it immediately, but my wife was the first to speak up about it. "Sounds like a junky old car" were her exact words. It is a very objectionable sound. Sounds like a slipping fan belt. In order to not hear it, you'd have to have a hearing problem. From all the posts on the subject, it is obvious that not all Sprinters are affected in this way with the eliminator. Don't know why. But those complaining have a very legitimate gripe.

If we weren't already into the less than 20 degree snowy weather here, I'd re-install the eliminator, take my Sprinter for a ride while recording the interior ambient sound with a Sony digital memo recorder, then post the before and after results on YouTube.

mackconsult

04-01-2010, 07:17 PM

I got my billet aluminum resonator. Thinking about installing it next week. My current limp mode failure on the DAD last night is from rail pressure to high .... or flow to low.

Aqua Puttana

04-01-2010, 09:41 PM

I was thinking the other day, which is always dangerous. I've been driving around carrying a brand new spare Q5 resonator in case my in service resonator ever fails. This summer I'm going to take the time to install the new spare and then carry the removed one for emergencies. That way I'll have the best unit installed, know how to install one if I ever need to, and still have a spare just in case.

It sometimes takes me time to figure things out.:thinking:

For those who may want to suggest it, I see no reason to spend the money for a resonator eliminator for my typically lightly loaded Sprinter. If I owned an RV conversion the thought process might be different. vic

photoadjuster

04-01-2010, 10:08 PM

Vic,

For those of us with older models that do not have the resonator, could you explain why it was added in 2004 and what exactly is the impovement.

Thanks,

Aqua Puttana

04-01-2010, 10:33 PM

Vic,

For those of us with older models that do not have the resonator, could you explain why it was added in 2004 and what exactly is the improvement.

Thanks,
Mike,
You give me too much credit for having information.

From what I have learned on the forums the turbo resonator was included in the NAFTA OM647 engine because there is noise and often a high pitched whine which Daimler-Chrysler felt people would find objectionable. The TR turbo resonator is tuned and designed to reduce those noises.

My personal opinion is that the TR does it's job. The reason I say that is because there are mixed reviews from people who have installed the billet aluminum turbo resonator eliminator. Some people try the eliminator and go back to the OEM TR. Others say the difference is not noticeable. Still others say they like hearing the whine and spooling up of the turbo.

My staying with the OEM TR is mostly a matter of cost. It seems to me that most TR failures happen to heavily loaded Sprinters. Those with moderate use seem not to have as many problems. An OEM spare TR cost me $42.00 if I recall correctly. A TR eliminator is over $100.00 or so. Hope this does some good. vic

donblume

04-16-2010, 04:52 AM

I decided to go back to the Q5 resonator, but before doing so, I made a few changes to it. I applied cyanoacrylate (Super Glue) all along the seam, then covered the whole seam with a thick layer of J-B Weld 2 part epoxy (see picture below). To test it, I plugged the ends with a couple of expanding plugs. One of the plugs was drilled and tapped to accept a 1/8" pipe fitting for an air line. I then applied 20 PSI of air, which I'm certain is more boost than the turbo provides. The seam held. So I put it in my powder coating oven, set it to 140F, and let it cook all night with the air on. No issues.

I'll probably fix the original Q4 resonator as well for a spare. But I doubt I'll be needing it.

Matt

http://www.smokypond.com/gallery/download/7174-2/IMG_0931m.JPG

Nice repair, but how do you get J B Weld to stay in a circular not flat position with out running all over the place?
Don

shortshort

04-16-2010, 07:51 PM

Nice repair, but how do you get J B Weld to stay in a circular not flat position with out running all over the place?
Don

Show it naughty pictures?

calbiker

04-22-2010, 01:14 AM

OK, here's an ugly JB Weld TR mod.

JB Weld doesn't have much shear strength. I added fiberglass cloth to provide shear strength.

Procedure:
1. Sand away shine from TR.
2. Apply a thick coat of JBW around the TR seam and side.
3. Stick the fiberglass cloth to the epoxy.
4. Put masking tape (tight) around area that's covered in glass cloth.
5. Squeeze tape to work epoxy into glass cloth.
6. Let sit over night.
7. Take off masking tape (if you want to make it look nice). ;-)

This particular Q5 TR popped its lid after about 25K miles.

It's going back in the Sprinter now.
Cal

22833

Aqua Puttana

04-22-2010, 01:52 AM

calbiker, et al.,
Serviceable and inexpensively repaired equipment happily doing its job under a vehicle has no need to be pretty. Thanks for the information. vic

slowgsr

07-06-2010, 12:41 AM

kthflieger

07-06-2010, 04:42 PM

Since I purchased my sprinter 16 months ago it has been in the shop only once for an alternator problem. Prior to my purchase I spoke with the service department at my local dodge dealer on the south side of Atlanta about reliability. The first thing he told me about was the problem with the resonator. That dealership aparently saw a lot of failures in the plastic part.... While at a large dodge dealership in south Texas, having the alternator replaced, that tech also told me about the resonator problem and pointed to two other sprinters in adjoining bays that were both in for new resonators. This dealership informed me that they routinely replaced the plastic resonator with the metal version in all heavy camper/fleet trucks with MB's blessing.

KL2BE

07-06-2010, 05:14 PM

Great info here.

My 04 has blown 2 charge pipes, first was the cold pipe that connects direction to the intake, at about.. 100k, then at about 300k the hot pipe blew. I never had any issues with the resonator on my 04 (350k). My 05, has just 100k about, and experienced the low boost, limp mode problems.. I pulled off all charge pipes to inspect/clean, and noticed little wear and no damage, I was puzzled.

This forum will offer lots of good info it seems.

Does your '04 have a resonator? I did not know they appeared before '05; maybe mid-'04 :idunno:.
Anyway, first check the seam of the resonator with a finger to see if there is oil leaking. If the seam is leaking there will be a drip of oil since the TR is downstream of the blow-by return to the induction system. No oil drip does not prove the TR is OK, but might suggest another issue. Also check the TR with a small mirror to see the white stick-on label; if it has a Q-1, Q-2, Q-3 or Q-4 label, it is almost certainly a TR failure. If it is a Q-5 it's unlikely the TR; few if any Q-5 failures have been reported. Since yours is an early model with TR it is likely to be a pre-Q5 and it is likely you have a failed TR, particularly if you also find an oil drip.
You can get a new TR from the dealer for around $50-$60 USD. Make sure it has a Q-5 sticker; some dealers still have recalled Q-4 s on the shelf and have ignored the DC memo to send them back for a refund :yell: (The recall memo from DC was posted on this Forum by Sikwan :bow: and I used a copy to get my dealer to give me a new Q-5 TR for free :hugs:; give it a try.

An aluminum TR bypass is available from Upscale Automotive in Portland, OR for around $90 USD :thumbup: .
:professor: A clogged air cleaner can also give the same symptoms. The on-board computer senses anomolous pressure readings in the induction systema and signals the Turbo to go into Limp-Home Mode.