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mgjessop
05-26-2007, 05:18 AM
Hello Again,

I have a 2005 3500 158" and my front wheel camber is way off... The outer 3inches of my tires are wearing out after about 50k miles... The rear tires have 65% tread left, and the front inner part of my tires have over 50%... Is there a camber adjustment? If so where is it?:thinking:

hkpierce
05-29-2007, 04:51 PM
If I read Dr. A correctly, the answer is there is only toe-in adjustment. The implication is something in the front suspension is seriously bent. See the thread at [you must be logged in for the link to work] http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sprintervan/messages/37374.

Altered Sprinter
05-30-2007, 12:29 AM
Silly question at 50 K I'd guess you have rotated the rims, at least twice?
Richard

sikwan
05-30-2007, 04:49 AM
HK is right. Either some problem with the suspension system or you have some massive toe in.

1961

mgjessop
05-30-2007, 09:17 AM
Thank you for the info... I asked a office depot driver that had a 3500 if they had the same problem... They said they did... I asked my dealer and they said that the 3500 is meant to carry tons of weight so the camber is factory set for that reason and there is no way to correct unless I want to put 3 tons of weight in the van...:crazy: The other thing that really stinks is I can't find any place to buy the 195/70/15 D rated tires... The stock tires have been discontinued :cry: I need your guys help to find me some new tires... Thanks you again...

hkpierce
05-30-2007, 07:08 PM
The other thing that really stinks is I can't find any place to buy the 195/70/15 D rated tires... The stock tires have been discontinued :cry: I need your guys help to find me some new tires... Thanks you again...

Search for Maxxis, Nokian and Continentals.

Douglas Hicks
06-01-2007, 07:51 AM
I have 2 Sprinters, a 140 SHC 2500 and a 2005 158 SHC 2500. Both use E rated tires. I have had 2 dealers put on D rated snow tires and the vans handled horribly. I switched back to E rated tires and the handling improved. One dealer is out of business, the other dealer made an adjustment in replacing the snow tires that was fair. The second dealer takes care of the tire needs of my 5 vehicles.

Douglas Hicks

Scott_Mc
06-01-2007, 02:44 PM
Seek, does the service manual page posted apply to both the 2500 and 3500?

A little front end 101 please:

Help me out here.
A front end with excessive +camber will wear the outside edges.
A vehicle with a lot of weight in the rear will produce +camber due to the weight shift from front to rear.
If the front end on the 3500 is in fact pre-set in anticipation of heavy loads, would it no be set towards the -camber so when loaded would be closer to true?
If that is correct (which I'm likely off:thinking: ) wouldn't mgjessop's tires (under loaded) be wearing on the insides or is my scenario only true if the vehicle is improperly (too heavy in the tail) loaded

Altered Sprinter
06-01-2007, 02:57 PM
Scott
Have you ever looked at the way the specs are set for sprinters?
Look at the US class configuration for weights. 2500 3500 Sprinter
Look at the Euro specs same model 3500 4500 Sprinters
Then look at the engines for the US 316 416 CDi
Richard
1970

mgjessop
06-01-2007, 05:29 PM
I know for a fact that the camber is set for heavy loads... There is a 3500 that is owned by a marble shop... They are always carring close to 5000lbs of marble... They have 85k miles on there tires, the front time look to be wearing perfect... I did a little test yesterday... I have a 500 gallon water tank that I put in the back of the sprinter... Filled her up with 500 gallons of water... Walked to the front of the van a took a good look at my front wheels, the camber was perfect... The Van was sitting at lease 3 inches lower in the front and and 5inches lower in the rear... The tires were perfectly flat and even to the ground... Took my sprinter for a spin around town with my 4500lbs of water in the back... My Sprinter never rode so good... It was a nice soft and smooth ride... Whent over a few rough roads and it was so smooth, I though I was riding in a Bently...:bounce: Took the water and tank out, and everything went back to way out of wack... :bash:
Oh well:idunno:

BMA
06-02-2007, 06:10 AM
It's a delivery truck, what do you expect? :smirk:

What I can't understand is why the camber isn't adjustable. :idunno: It isn't that hard to make a heavy duty suspension that is fully adjustable for expected loads.

I wonder if it would be possible to setup the front suspension on adjustable air bags? That way ride height could be adjusted to optimum for any load. :thumbup:

mgjessop
06-02-2007, 06:23 AM
Maybe I could add some hydro's and make my Sprinter hop like they do with the low riders... :lol:

Altered Sprinter
06-02-2007, 06:26 AM
It has been set up for differnt weights, both model ranges have a differnt front end and rear end as well.
Look at the specs.
Air bag suspension is available for the Sprinter and it's compliant.
Richard

mgjessop
06-02-2007, 06:28 AM
Where can I find air bags for the sprinter? I would love to air bag it...:drool:

Altered Sprinter
06-02-2007, 06:45 AM
Where can I find air bags for the sprinter? I would love to air bag it...:drool:
Working on this now read the links provided they are current.
Richard
Rear Spring Modification (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1079&highlight=rear+suspension)

sikwan
06-02-2007, 09:44 AM
Seek, does the service manual page posted apply to both the 2500 and 3500?

Nothing in the manual says otherwise, so I'm guessing that it's for both. :idunno:

mgjessop
06-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Thank you for the link, that is really cool setup... Do they make airbags for the front wheels... I need to adjust the front to make the camber problem go away... Thank you again...

chaozz
06-02-2007, 08:33 PM
try independent alignment shops they have access to
more information,there could be some after market adjustment kits
on the market.

Altered Sprinter
06-03-2007, 05:51 AM
Thank you for the link, that is really cool setup... Do they make airbags for the front wheels... I need to adjust the front to make the camber problem go away... Thank you again...
Looking into this , for the Sprinter 'there does not appear to be a front air set up, but there is a shock to match the rear, will let you know once I have the information.
Richard

Scott_Mc
06-03-2007, 03:07 PM
I know for a fact that the camber is set for heavy loads... There is a 3500 that is owned by a marble shop... They are always carring close to 5000lbs of marble... They have 85k miles on there tires, the front time look to be wearing perfect... I did a little test yesterday... I have a 500 gallon water tank that I put in the back of the sprinter..... :
A better test would have been with 500 gallons of beer :thumbup:, but I digress...

85K on the original 15" tires of a van that most always has a load like that? Doubtful in my opinion. My OE 16" Michelins (known for very long tread life) are nearing replacement at 70K. My truck laden weighs 7300lbs-8700lbs (that's 3311Kg-3946Kg for our Tasmanian friends:smilewink: ) Still don't have any numbers on what a 2500 weighs empty but I figure I've constantly got around 1500lbs in there.

One would have to ask, why did you buy a 3500 if you don't carry any weight? Well, they DO look cool :cheers: !

mgjessop
06-03-2007, 07:21 PM
Thank's for all the help... I purchased the 3500 due to the fact that I felt the handling was much better... I own a 30ft Trail Lite travel trailer that I tow quite a bit in the summer months... My Sales rep is a good friend of mine and I told him that I would love to test drive a few sprinters while hooking them up to my travel trailer... I fist hooked it up to 2500 118" High Roof... Took on the freeway with 15-20mph cross winds and the van was all over the place, not stable at all... The next time I test drive a 2500 158 high roof.. Much better handling but didn't have a much cross wind when driving... Then they had a 3500 158 high roof... Hooked my Trailer up and noticed that the back of the sprinter only went down about 2inches... All the other models went down at least 4-6inches... The tounge weight is around 500lbs.. Took it for a test drive and could hardly tell the trailer was back there... There was a good cross wind of 20-25mph and it did pull a little bit but nothing like the 2500's... Also it was only $1800 more than 2500... I was told at the the time they were very rare to find... The rest is history...

Altered Sprinter
06-04-2007, 12:48 AM
Straight question! you have the mid based 3500 Sprinter, towing a 31 ft trailer.
Which model did you get! the one with standard single rear wheels, or dual rear wheels, with front extended hubs?
Each is different ,rear springs two of different axle ratios, and a front axle with wide hub , It is also a heaver axle for load ratings, overall the latter completely changes the configuration for the load balances, for the Sprinter.
Is the towing frequent with the trailer.
Richard

mgjessop
06-04-2007, 06:42 AM
It is the 3500 158" Long Wheel base with dual real wheels... The Travel Trailer weight is right around 4700lbs... Last summer I towed it close to 8000 miles across the usa... Got at 17mpg avg, towning doing 50-55mph... I use to tow it with my Ford F-150 never got above 8mpg.... I never had problems even when I went across the southwest of USA in Aug, 115-120 degrees towing up hills, no overheating even with the ac blowing ice cold... The picture is my Travel Trailer and my 500hp Supercharged Ford F150 ... I love my truck, but not being able to go more than 250miles on 30 gallon tank of gas really :censored: ...

Altered Sprinter
06-04-2007, 08:47 AM
500Hp super charged v 156 hp with turbo assist man with the first option you could tow the mountain behind you as well
There should be no issues with sprinter as such, but I was thinking! with both the van and the trailer! are they both level ?with a level-ride stabilizer bar, I'm thinking if not! 'the front end may be too light in the front' and the wheels may be sliding slightly to either side on cornering I've seen this before on many makes of vehicles,
The sprinter has two rear stabilizers, as your van is a 4.5 tonne vehicle in it's original setup providing you have the wide front hubs if not it's a three ton unit and it's running too light in the front for sure, but I still can't work out what was done to the US sprinters as there are three load axle ratings for the front before you hit the four and six tonne units even the back end has different axle ratios springs etc.
The trailer load with brakes that is air brakes assist is set at 2000 kilograms on the entire 3500 series That should be 4409.245 lbs so your on the max for towing.
The specs are from Mercedes-Benz with the 316 -416 CDi engine even the 4-in-line 414 CDi has the same rating
I'm also thinking as to load you have in the back of the van as well if it is with at least a two ton load inboard including the vehicle the weight transfer , with the center of gravity may indicate that rear of the van and the trailer are both off level in a horizontal line until you reach speed of at least 45 miles PH
Just my thoughts of what may have caused your camber to run out
Richard
1993

1994

mgjessop
06-04-2007, 06:11 PM
Not to get to technical, The travel trailer has stablizing bars that I adjust to shift the weight off the hitch... At most the tounge weight might be 200lbs... So there is very little weight pushing the rear down... The towe rating is 5000lbs for USA Sprinters... Also my Travel Trail is only 7 1/2 feet wide so it doesn't cause much wind resistance... I took my Sprinter in on Sat to get a new fuel filter and talked with a sprinter mech... I told him how I was having problem with camber and they took my sprinter and put it on a lift... They measured some distance, and told me that everything is perfect... They also showed me at 3000lbs of cargo the camber will be 0... Right now I have 5degrees of positive camber... So if I am not hauling 3000lbs my camber will be off... He also told me that there is some lawsuit filled agenst Dodge from Fedex and UPS for this reason... The fact that it is set so off from the factory has caused premature tire wear... I will look into the lawsuit, but I haven't heard anything about it...

Altered Sprinter
06-05-2007, 02:17 AM
Interesting I am aware of the Dodge Sprinter Hybrid having the same problem with uneven tire wear.
To clarify all specifications for the US Sprinter are for the 3500 series by cross matching with the Mercedes-Benz site, very little matches with US ratings
Each van in weight class has different front end axle loadings and rear axle loadings
Gross weight... laden and unladen... again vary, by class weight,
Dual wheels with wide h/D front hub has a different rating again.
Dual wheels with standard hubs are mis-configured technically, they do not exist on the Mercedes-Benz site, real dual has wide Front hubs.

Weight class 2,5 ton , 3,5 ton 4,5 ton 5 ton
each has a different load axle rating
each has different rear springs 1 2 3 of
each has a different rear set of stabilizer bars
there appears to be two front struts, different upper ball joints from 95 to 2006 January
because of the Mercedes-Benz having both four cylinder and the 5 cylinder in line model engines, again load axle ratings on the front were accommodated for two types of axle ratings ! Thinking this may not have been done.
When I look at the axle ratings GVW on the 3500 series they simply do not match to Mercedes_Benz data
However as you have not received the 4t models I need to go back to Benz and pick up these from archives, maybe you have the higher ratings , therefore I need to look at the 4 to 5 ratings to see if there is a cross match, as the US does not have the three rear spring set up with H/D stabilizers or all models sprinters from 2002 to 2007 US only modified front end modifications etc.
There is an after market upper tie rod from carquest that resolves part of this issue.
Tire pressure does effect the outer and inner wear factors, I'm guilty on that one, but excessive cornering due to off road cambers can permanently off set the camber on the sprinter.

If I can get the compleate specifcations for the Sprinters I run them up
Richard
2008

mgjessop
06-05-2007, 05:48 AM
Thank you again for all the info... I look forward to what you can come up with...:clapping:

Altered Sprinter
06-06-2007, 02:19 PM
Following up with a met with the regional Mercedes rep, and with consulting with the Sprinter tech! we have a problem.
Re Mercedes-Benz Sprinters fro weight classifications
The immediate thought was there may have been a typo error in the web site of Dodge.
Cross referencing with both the Euro and Australian Sprinters as to the weight calculations which vary by class 2500 3500 4500 5500 through to 6.9 ton
engines 208 308 311 313 316 413 414 416 to 616 CDi, each engine has a power to weight ratio , each engine has a different front and rear axle ratio to match, especially with the front axle loadings 4 cylinders as an example 208 CDi has a front axle loading of 1460[kg]=3212lbs conversion reference as the lbs is universal and metric is a stand alone equation
1460kg x 2.2 = 3212 lbs
Each model on the US site we looked at 2500 and 3500 should have different ratings on a standard rear single wheel unit with a front standard rim using a 15' rim 16' has a slightly different figure unique to a possible 25 axle combinations ranging from a one ton to seven ton Sprinter.
None of the N/American Sprinters match to the Euro specs, it is obvious that the Kg's and lbs were rounded up to the nearest end number rather than part of as per say 3750.373lbs[example only]
We pulled up a 2500 compliance plate from a used sprinter photo is indicated below
2037
Look at the numbers very carefully, Note: top first number GVWR 3878kg = 8500lbs
GVWR should be 3878 kg = 8531.6 lbs, OK were weight pinching'

There is no known rating from Mercedes-Benz for the 2500 series of 3878 kg it does not exist:thinking:
Look at this possible equation 3878 kg!!!! 3878lbs not kg divided by 2.2 = 1761.81818 :idunno: What we now have is thew original front axle loading, for a class 3500 with a 4 cylinder engine not the five in line the front axle loading is 1750 Kg but also used on the 416 dual wheel wide hub front axle units with heavy duty rear springs, three and four of, including front and rear stabilizer bars of a heavier rating, along with front upgraded suspension steering knuckles etc, to match the weight configurations.
This particular plated model of the US sprinter does not have this weight configuration. as indicated on the compliance plate.
Next number second from the top 1761kg =3866lbs should read 1761 kg = 3674.2 lbs:thinking:
Again there is no reference to the numbers unless it the same front axle loading which is close to the 1750 3500 class model with the wide hub.
Third number from the top
GAWR 2431 Kg = 5360lbs again does not match to the class or numbers
There are no front or rear axle ratings shown on the compliance plate
The figures for the 3500 should be
Front axle loading 1600 kg = 3520 lbs
Rear axle loading 2240 kg= 4928 lbs
Gross vehicle mass 3500 kg = 7700 lbs
Unladen weight......2069kg = 4551.8 lbs
Pay load capacity with on board power brakes 2000 kg = 4400 lbs
There are two hitches and a different weight configuration for the 3500 series if dual rear wheels and wide hub is fitted.
We looked at the compliance plate and the model Mercedes have come to the conclusion it's flawed and not a legal vehicle of compliance in both US FMVSS Standards nor would it comply to Mercedes Specifications
Last picture shows the rear end of the sprinter, as it's not that clear all three parties confirmed by a visual inspection that the rear stabilizer is not for the 3500 series the bend in the center of the diff is wrong and it appears to be for the 2500 model which has the wrong ratings for the model irrespective of the fact that it has a 316 engine, front tire wear is evident but the mileage shown on the vehicle compares to normal wear and tear.
2038
Any thoughts on this as to our conclusions comparing the US Dodge specs v Mercedes Specs
Richard
2039

BaywoodBill
06-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Following up with a met with the regional Mercedes rep, and with consulting with the Sprinter tech! we have a problem.
Re Mercedes-Benz Sprinters fro weight classifications
The immediate thought was there may have been a typo error in the web site of Dodge.
Cross referencing with both the Euro and Australian Sprinters as to the weight calculations which vary Any thoughts on this as to our conclusions comparing the US Dodge specs v Mercedes Specs
Richard


Yes... a comment: :thinking:

mgjessop
06-06-2007, 05:28 PM
I will post some pictures of my sprinter later on today... Maybe the pictures with the info will help figure out this issue..

mgjessop
06-06-2007, 07:11 PM
Here are some pictures of my tire wear... The last picture is of the rear tire, with plenty of tread left... I have right now about 54k on these tires... Also the spec's for my sprinter are:

GVWR/PNBV 4531KG---9990LB
FRONT GAWR/PNBE 1751KG---3860LB
REAR GAWR/PNBE 3202KG---7060LB

Altered Sprinter
06-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Mgjessop
Now we are cooking you have a 4500 series in part, that I can reference too [tonight]
I will look at my own rating plate , never thought of that untill now:bash:
I can see where you have concern with front tires the picture I put in on the 2500 had 78000 miles:thinking: which personally I thought was brilliant
PS you have the 1750 front axle option wide hub I'll cross ref this later on to see if the rear axle ratio matches, I'm assuming you have dual rears.
Of course he has :smilewink:
Richard:thumbup:
Question how many rear springs two or three, this is important.
have you a thick rear stabilzer bar it's heavier than the 3500 standard model this applies to the front also.Can you compare with a standard 3500 unit with single rear wheels.

mgjessop
06-07-2007, 06:15 AM
I have 3 leaf springs in the rear, with the heavy dudty stablizing bar in the rear with a pretty heafty sway bar in the front... Here in California if you have a vechical that has a gross weight of 10,000lbs or more you must stop at every truck scale on the freeways... That is why I am sure they keept it under 10,000lbs... Remeber if you have a nice 2007 with a gross vechical weight of more than 10,000lbs to stop at those truck scales or risk a nice little fine from the Highway Patrol...

Altered Sprinter
06-07-2007, 06:57 AM
Of course that explains the weight class as Florida has an 8500 GVW on dual axles and with width tracking.
So what we have is a Dodgy Sprinter. with Dodgy ratings, they are not correct to the original specs of Mercedes, I'm curious to know how they moved it around so much, but it must mean the larger RV are totally illegal in some of the states
any of those units with an overhang changes the weight configuration on the rear axles.
Look at this RV it's a 616 CDi has four springs two huge rear stabilizers front and back with equal size in the front, sorry had clean gear on, so I was not about to crawl under it to prove it, but the other photos in the list, of rear end are as similar. the axles and housing is actually shorter than the 3500 series.
2007 model Sprinters are rated 11000+ Lbs the only way to down size is a lower axle rating stabilizers and front suspension de grade, to fake the GVW " But with the V6 a much heavier engine than the 4-in-line that will cause an in balance at the front end, thinking of the harmonic balancer will go nuts with vibrationssssssssss'
This means more future problems with the new sprinters breaking gear:thumbdown:
Thank you for your input, it does clarify many thoughts we have had as to the Sprinters in the US having so many problems, that never showed up in the quantities elsewhere, as you had in the US.:idunno:
We know fuel and oil was in fact part of the blame, because you had the older EGR units , and a poor quality diesel ,suspension problems on the RVs were responsible on Winnie's causing front end problems and rear springs breaking, Mercedes virtually told them to go to hell for the 2007 models as they are well over weight to handle the 3.5 class models long story on that one. I guess we will continue to hear of many other minor problems over this, I hope to God no one gets killed over it in the event of an accident , and some bright investigator works out there are discrepancies to the GVW ratings on the 25000 and 3500 class US vehicles.
Looking at the last set of numbers for weight configurations and then looking on Mercedes Specs, again too far out of configuration , so I'll amuse my self and spend some time over the next few days working it out, somethings been changed to arrive at the US ratings and I can only speculate at the moment.

Richard
2055

2056
Adding to comment Winne
This is for the RV Winnebago
This company has a secondary manufacturing license
In some models produced as to the photograph shown below.
Are classed as over weight where single wheel and dual wheel models are produced, it depends on the fit out as to end weight and overhang of the model
They need to be on a class 4500 up wards to 7000 or 7 tonne
2062
If one stopped to think about it! look at the 3500 model in the back ground and the seven tonne model camper? it has an extended chassis and longer wheel base as well
There is no way a 3500 chassis can run the weight
All Winnebago's now are built on the Fiat Daily truck chassis 7 tonne as to the last photo included.
2063

Scott_Mc
06-07-2007, 12:24 PM
Well, I did it again. hit some button up in the tool bar, went to some other site, hit the back button and erased a couple of paragraphs....I give up.

Altered Sprinter
06-07-2007, 12:28 PM
Scott yor on IE :thumbdown:
Go Like Sprinter man and play with the fire-fox youll have a Devil of a time and lots of fun doing it:clapping:
Richard

mountainman
06-07-2007, 09:36 PM
I just checked the front end of my 2004 2500 sprinter. The camber is indeed positive without a load in the back. :thinking: :thinking:

I think I'm just going to have to rotate the tires more often. :thumbdown:
Or try and shim the lower control arms out as much as possible. :bash: :bash:

We''l have to check and see what can be done.
:idunno:

Altered Sprinter
06-07-2007, 11:41 PM
if you rotate four times and reverse the tires as well two times 100 thousand could be achieved if you have dual then it has to be done by a tire company.
PS re torque to the manual specs or it will vibrate the nuts loose.
Richard

BMA
06-08-2007, 01:24 AM
PS re torque to the manual specs or it will vibrate the nuts loose.
Richard

Dad always wonders why I nearly stand on the end of an 24 inch breaker bar when torquing down wheel nuts. I don't like having any loose ones when I check them a few days later. As for getting them off later, that's what the pipe is for if needed. I've had too many times when a garage put a wheel on with an impact wrench and I couldn't budge it with the breaker bar alown. They like to do this on my pickups. I now carry a 4 foot pipe along with a breaker bar and the right sized impact socket in each of my trucks. I started to do this after I had a time when I was bouncing all my weight on the end of a 4' pipe and it wasn't budging. Adding a feed sack over the sholder and bouncing allot more finally got it to break free. I was shocked the lug bolt didn't break.

- Bryan

Scott_Mc
06-08-2007, 11:43 AM
Firefox...hmmm

Many garages are famous for over torqueing lug nuts. I've just about blown out a seal myself trying to free up studs on my car let alone my van. Good garages at least use a torque stick (correct name?) It goes between the impact wrench and the wheel bolt. Prevents over tightening.

Like Richard said, torque to spec is all you need. Over tightening damages the wheel, the stud/bolt and the rotor.

Altered Sprinter
06-08-2007, 11:52 AM
Scott
Are you breeding little firefox devils:bounce:
I cant for the love of me think what that torque set fastner is called:thinking: that the tire companies use, to pre set a tension so it does not over or under torque? the lug nuts,with the Kompressor thingy:idunno:
Dam I hate senior moments:bash:
Richard
2076

Scott_Mc
06-08-2007, 12:17 PM
It is the 3500 158" Long Wheel base with dual real wheels... The Travel Trailer weight is right around 4700lbs... Last summer I towed it close to 8000 miles across the usa....
Pretty sad, you old Ford could not get the f/e empty that the Sprinter gets while towing. It was really fast though, which is good, you can be first in line at the gas station:smilewink:

OK mgjessop, one more question concerning the picture you'd posted:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1992&stc=1&d=1180935531
Aside from the beautiful scenery, is there another reason that you stop in the middle of the road, on the far side of a sharp bend no less, for a photo-op:thinking:

sikwan
06-08-2007, 01:08 PM
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1992&stc=1&d=1180935531
Aside from the beautiful scenery, is there another reason that you stop in the middle of the road, on the far side of a sharp bend no less, for a photo-op:thinking:

:laughing:

Altered Sprinter
06-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Ok we have a Vista with 3500 Classification
GVW 4426.59 round up to 4500 as to Mercedes Sprinters specs =9738.498 lbs if you take it to the rounded off figure of 4500 kg =9900lbs
The Vista has a unladen weight classification 0f 10581lbs with a 3500 rating
Specs for the 3500
front axle load 1600 kg=3520lbs
rear axle load 2240 kg=4928lbs
GVM 3500kg..............=7700lbs

If the Gulf Scam has a 4226.59 GVM =9298.498 lbs
It must be accompanied by a 4,5 tonne rated front axle loading of ....
1750kg = 3850lbs along with heavier rated rear springs plus stabilizers front and rear with upgraded front axle bearings in the front steering arms knuckles and dampeners etc.

As I know the weight of the vehicle as to it being the same down under, then it should be using a six tonne chassis configuration front axle loading 1850 Kg =4070lbs
Rear axle 4490 kg=9878 lbs lbs with two rear stabilizers in front and behind the diff housings I don't know the exact dimensions but they are twice as thick as the 3500 class single stabilizer bar
The Vista is approx two thousand pounds over weight and top heavy for the lower rated front axle, which would have massive understeer under road conditions with an off camber which will create a slide on corners wearing the front tires with outer and inner tire rounding OFF Camber in a possible worst case scenario situation, a roll over is likely.
Am I to presume it has a secondary Manufactures license and who certified the standard ? for both placing the RV on the Dodge body and up grading the Class from 3500 to 4500 on a 3500 chassis
To add to the towing capacity 2000kg is correct =4400 lbs for a standard hitch
Have we any members with the class vehicle as a Vista Gulf stream or winnie unit who could help me understand how this unit is allowed on a US road legally.
My point is this unit should be on a six ton chassis configuration just for stability, if for no other reason.
Richard
2079

2080

mgjessop
06-08-2007, 05:38 PM
The Reason why I am stopped in the middle of the road is because I am little crazy...:crazy: Just Kidding... I was at Zion National Monument and they have this huge tunnel... They stopped traffic for me and my Travel Trailer due to the fact that I have to drive down the middle of the tunnel or I would have a convertible travel trailer:lol: ... It was pretty cool to drive down the middle of this one mile tunnel... If you ever get a chance visit Zion National Monument in Utah...

BaywoodBill
06-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Zion National Monument and they have this huge tunnel...

We're going to Zion (been there before) but I forgot about the tunnel. What's the clearance in that thing? Maybe I won't make it without them stopping traffic?
:idunno:

mgjessop
06-11-2007, 07:27 AM
It is probably 12-13 feet in the center on the sides it is probably 8-9 feet... They might put you down the middle... Pretty cool when your the only one going down the center of the tunnel... Best of luck to you...

Altered Sprinter
06-11-2007, 11:13 AM
further ivestigation reveals the camber on a Mercedes can be resolved by laser methods and or replacement kits.
Richard.
2118

2119

2120

BaywoodBill
06-11-2007, 05:08 PM
It is probably 12-13 feet in the center on the sides it is probably 8-9 feet... They might put you down the middle... Pretty cool when your the only one going down the center of the tunnel... Best of luck to you...

Cool I can agree :rad: but I hope I don't have to do it. We have 9'6" at the air conditioner. If we drive near the center line (it's a skinny van, right?) maybe we're OK. I've been through there twice and I remember the second time there was a big wait while some jerk (:shhh: :bash:) in a motor home came through. Is there a tunnel monitor person who does all the checking and stopping?
:popcorn:

mgjessop
06-11-2007, 05:32 PM
That camber kit is awesome... Where can I purchase that kit?

mgjessop
06-11-2007, 05:35 PM
Yes they have somebody checking for your height... I am sure they will stop traffic and make you drive down the center...

Altered Sprinter
06-12-2007, 12:28 AM
That camber kit is awesome... Where can I purchase that kit?
Its an Australian site I find it tonight after work .
If they do not export! I send it, once I have a price.
Richard

Altered Sprinter
06-12-2007, 08:05 AM
That camber kit is awesome... Where can I purchase that kit?
OK I spoke to the manufacturer the price is AU$ 70.00 dollars plus freight it weighs half a kilo air freight at a guess between 20 to 27 Dollars AU I have not checked the price for freighting. included insurance for 100 dollars AU
He wants to know what is the toe out reading is from zero to positive as he supply's kits in any format etc
The kit I showed has 1.5 pos, .75 negative change
Would this do ? or can you be more specific, this company supply's parts for Government Sprinters on emergency vehicle's as well as VW Transits and Fiats he also does US ford and GM Suv's for both toe in toe out
The kit fits your sprinter the bolts are not an issue they comply to loading strengths etc the shims vary in thickness so he can accommodate you for your needs.
Normal wear for toe out is . 1.5 pos .75 negative change you have to have them professionally fitted for Lazar set memory for re alignment Not a DIY job
Hope this helps you.
Richard.

mgjessop
06-12-2007, 05:24 PM
Thank you for the info... I think it would work... The price isn't bad at all for the parts... I think it might cost a lot to install...:cry: I am going to get a quote to see how much it cost to install... Thank you and I will keep you posted....

Altered Sprinter
06-12-2007, 11:51 PM
That's OK
If you do want it . please get the measurements so the company can configure the positive and negative cambers. At least we now have a company that can resolve the camber issues.
Cheers Richard

mountainman
06-14-2007, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the information on the kits.

Some of the other guys who use Sprinters to haul Rally cars around over here have come up with another solution... add 300 lbs. to the front bumper. Adding the weight is enough to change the ride height and make the camber neutral.

Altered Sprinter
06-15-2007, 12:14 AM
Good point mountainman add a few extra lead weights to the Sprinter
Richard
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car884
07-04-2007, 01:35 AM
So, I've rotated my tires 3 times. I am showing wear already. I have 14,200 miles on the van. Its a 3500 06. The service manuel specs out 0 camber, and 0 castor and 0 toe. I can clearly see that I have positvie camber. I have alighned my rally car many times to know the diff between positve and negative.
I don't always carry the prescribed cargo load. That sounds a bit foolish. Will mercedes make this right or do I buy the kit and remove it everytime when I do have the proper wieght to bring the camber to where it should be.
I am a bit confused as you can tell by the post.

Altered Sprinter
07-04-2007, 11:38 AM
Car884
Mercedes won't be doing anything to make them right as to they do stay in the correct configuration Off road cambers can cause premature wear on the edge as the posts indicate , a reset for your van as a kit can be ordered but we need to know to which specs look at the posts in this thread.
I don't know what type of vehicle you have , unless I look back on the threads which I'll do latter on . If per say you have an RV then I need to know how it's been set up. 14500 miles some edge wear would be normal , it depends on the roads you travel as to camber grades and condition of roads, and speeds etc.
Richard

BaywoodBill
07-21-2007, 08:00 PM
Here's a picture of my right-front tire.


There is irregularity in the wear. Not only is it wearing out more on the outside, each little segment is angled.

Is this alignment of the type that can be corrected or is it a balance problem?

Altered Sprinter
07-21-2007, 11:29 PM
Three possibility's Shocks are shot, Road camber itself is out of alignment or the front of the van is way to light for the rear of the vans weight.
I have had what I call shinnying on the front of GM and Ford vans before, too much weight in the rear, the sterring in the front from o to 30 MPH seems odd then the centre of weight corrects to centre of gravity for the balance, my solution at the time was air suspension which did resolve the proble, not that a one ton van can be compared to the Sprinter as such.
I'll try to find an old program on tire wear and causes when I come home to night, Sunday but I work 7 days , that's my life.
It may pay to check your camber at a local tire shop as it also may be tie rod bushings weraring, this will cause vibrations in the front sterring simular to thee RSN effect. Sorry Best I can do for you in a few spare minutes, but it will give my board brain box to think of something more accurate tonight.
Richard

tegimr
07-22-2007, 07:20 AM
Thank you for the info... I think it would work... The price isn't bad at all for the parts... I think it might cost a lot to install...:cry: I am going to get a quote to see how much it cost to install... Thank you and I will keep you posted....

Any updates on the estimated costs for installation?

Tim

Altered Sprinter
07-22-2007, 09:10 AM
Baywood Bill
I'm starting to scare my self thinking some ones going to have a shot at me over me giving you guys a hard time on the RV sprinters, I promise you its not the angle! just the way you guys ended up, with odd builds,:thinking:
I managed to get a few local shots of the sprinters today that have the RV conversions, not the best photos but good enough to make my point of references.
Shimmy or saw tooth like appearances on the outer or inner tires.
2566

2567
As indicated earlier on My thoughts were more a mechanical wear issue rather than camber, read the type on the causes to wear, carefully , first paragraph second photo OK. My concern is simple you have a standard 3500 Sprinter with an RV conversion same as Winnebago Airstream :thinking:
Balance of weights versus center of gravity, if top heavy or too light in the front tire wear is because of tip to toe imbalance, caused by rear end weight pushing the front forward and down wards, when entering corners the rear end depending on the corner left to right with force the front wheel to dig in to the road and lower the front suspension on the same side, torsional forces cause the wear factors of the tire to have a saw like appearance, as shocks wear down or tie rods wear bushings or dampeners crush on the bottom arms and lower the van to a point where tie rods especially drag links start to flex and cause damage to the vehicle, in part, I'm sorry if I am repeating the same ol;d message, you need wide hubs upgraded shocks , which have to be imported from the UK or Germany along with an 1850 to 2000KG front axle and a heavier stabilizer bar for the front, Check your visual appearance of the bump stops in the front suspension these dampeners need to have no less than one inch Clarence from the suspension, they rarely make contact to the bottom suspension main frame.
2569
2568
Rear end has to have the H/D setup, if you have not got this on your van , then the problems will escalate as the van does higher mileage, somethings going to break.
2570
I'd suggest you take the van to a qualified front end specialist and have a proper check to evaluate possible problems, heavier parts can be obtained so , take the first step to find out and let us know, so we can help resolve your problems and others as they eventually START TO ASK SIMILAR PROBLEMS ON DIFFERENT THREADS.
PS; I might be wrong,in my guess work as to the issue you have, and I hope I am.
Richard

sikwan
07-22-2007, 09:38 AM
My concern is simple you have a standard 3500 Sprinter with an RV conversion same as Winnebago Airstream :thinking:

Only thing is BaywoodBill's Leisure Travel Van is a 2500. The original poster complained about camber being off on their 3500.

Altered Sprinter
07-22-2007, 09:41 AM
Thanks Seek I just assumed it was a 3500 Aussie saying "BUGGER" I hope he has a little warranty left, if they honour it?:thinking:
Richard

sikwan
07-22-2007, 10:35 AM
You know, I was thinking (:smirk:). I know many have mentioned that the camber being off because of excessive weight on the rear lifting the front, but what about the affects on toe-in because of the characteristic of the rack and pinion steering?

I remember while crawling under the Sprinter today working on the SCS Frigette A/C that the steering arms were not parallel to the ground. I just don't remember if it was fore or aft of the wheels. Anyways, the service manual drawings say that they're in front of the wheels.

Let's say the tires are parallel to each other (zero toe-in or toe-out), and the tie rods are parallel to the ground.

- Lifting the front of the vehicle will cause toe-in, because the steering arms now droop downware pulling the wheels together.
- Squashing the front of the vehicle will cause toe-in, because the steering arms now point upward pulling the wheels together.

How much toe-in will depend on the length of the steering arms (angle of travel). Toe-in will cause wear on the outside of the tires. What does this all mean (to me)? My guess is to have the toe adjusted to zero to compensate for the angle of the steering arms and the weighted sag of the front end.

I've read, but haven't confirmed that the front composite spring sags prematurely. This would mean (to me) that toe should be adjusted to compensate for the sag. Likewise, the toe should be readjusted from factory settings if it's an RV conversion (more weight) or a fully loaded cargo van.

Lastly, if what I remember is correct about the steering arms drooping downward toward the wheels and not parallel to the ground, every time the front end dips it will cause the front wheels to toe-out.

EDIT: The steering arms should match the angle of the lower control arms, so I'm actually wondering if this still affects toe and prevents bumpsteer.

Don Horner
07-22-2007, 12:43 PM
What a coincidence. I just returned from a quickie trip to Johnson City, TN from Florida and back, and noticed my right front tire was cupping a bit exactly like Baywood Bill's. My LTV is also identical to Bills, probably in all weights, etc., also. I have roughly 27,000 miles and no indication of worn shocks, have never hit anything, not even a pot hole.

In my experience, slight cupping is often caused by an out-of-balance condition, although I can't feel anything like the normal bumping the accompanies that. There is no other symptom, no pulling, no wandering, aboslutely straight and sure when I release the steering wheel. By the end of this trip, there was a slightly discernible rumble noise from the irregularity of the tire. It is right front, only.

I'm living in the van at the moment at our rural property, so it will be a while -- possibly a couple of weeks -- before I can get it to a reliable front end shop.

Altered Sprinter
07-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Seek in My state there is a highway coming off the mountain as we enter the city the first left sharp turn is a pain in the neck as to the off camber of the road, there is no other way of building the road , with the exception of building a tunnel .
Even today tired and on my way home I was watching a station wagon Ford live axle rear end, , the guy driving was not going fast, the grade is steep and awkward to negotiate. at more than 40 miles an hour.
The first noticeable thing to see was the left rear wheel raise up-wards from the body, the front right hand side drooped rapidly, all of the torsional forces were on the front right side wheel, the standard suspension just could not cope at that turn, and he was not even loaded, if you tired to drive out of it under speed the vehicle would literally turn on itself .
Tires can wear just by the camber off set on the roads depending on road condition , for instance a rough road sealed but with corrugation on the surface can cause the saw back appearance on a tire, this also indicates shocks not right for the road and or tie rods and drag links too stressed etc.
The Sprinter has no adjustment for camber adjustments where Ford Transits and Fiat's do have a manual camber adjustment for toe in toe out, but these are old suspension technology almost as bad as using axle beams or McPherson struts , heck even they could be raised or lowered , but the old Chrysler's did not have a camber adjustment it worked off those struts only.
This is where your question starts to lose its answers for the US sprinters.
Mercedes engineers designed the Sprinters for different specifications and each model was engineered to a specific tolerance as to each model for weights and center of balance of the said vehicle, every thing in the front of the Sprinters geometry is computer Lazar set, there is little room for maneuvering to adjustments but they have a memory set for each component.providing every thing is bolted in the right position with the right tolls to do a Lazar re-set. this can only be done at a qualified service point such as the dealership:laughing: or a tire specialist:thumbup:
In a nut shell place a standard sprinter empty on a dead level surface and it will sit true and level , place a load in the back and the front suspension starts to rise , put excessive weight in the rear the front rises further and the wheels start to toe in drive the Sprinter with this weight and brake hard and the balance of gravity will shift the front lowers hard to the suspension the dampens move off center from the frame and move forward, if your turning at the same time with a road thats not level then the vehicle will start to slide either to the left or right under mechanical forces of speed factors increase at higher speed.
The out side toe will impact on the edge of the wheel as all pressure under gravity shifts to this point, it has no where else to go , deflection will give at a certain point if the vehicle does not lose steering control it will automatically rebound in-wards and shudder will occur! buy then you going to stop by hook or by crook because you know you have lost control of the vehicle. Bill's sprinter 2500 has a Limited front end axle of no more than 1460 KG or 1600 KG its class of 2500 is rated passenger or sports utility light weight not for an RV configuration .
If he had a 3500 series then an optional 1850 KG front axle package would have been an option from the 1750 KG standard front axle combo.
Single rear wheels is no big deal as opposed to dual as the extra wheel on either side if for stability only, where the difference comes into play is the diff and the setup with rear suspension s for H/D use, this applies to the front wide hub wheel , the options give you the alternative to handle the different weight configurations for specific needs of use to the said vehicles performance and durability as in the operating conditions it may be required for etc.
2,5 tonne to seven tonne or 6.9 tonne to be exact.
In the UK the joke was if you bought a standard cab chassis unit in the basic 2500 to 3500 class without modifications and placed a luton cargo van body on the rear, it was only good for carrying polystyrene sheets Hence 4.5 to 6.9 tonne different diffs and front ends, the engines made no difference as to manual gearbox's that had the set ratios to deliver the torque to the rear wheels.
In fairness to to Sprinter owners most buy by price and mechanical specs don't come into the equation untill much latter, dealers wont tell a customer what the right model should be for your specif purposes, as they are only interested in moving inventory from the lots and commission on the sale.
Mercedes-Benz has the PDF to advise you what to do and which model specification is best to suit your needs, buy it and you will not have any Major dramas , but again the dealers would not dare show a customer this as to either losing a sale as to the price differences or having to get the customer to wait 12 to 14 weeks for a delivery.
Its the same down in Australia as it is in America, this is a dealer thing not a Benz fault, the dealers are independent and can do what they want to do, DUMB it costs them sales and negativity becomes the catch cry of today.
Even if I could offer you the aftermarket solutions for rear air suspensions front suspensions springs and shocks and camber kits! Who can afford them just to get the rear end perfect would cost six grand the front add another three grand not much change left out of ten thousand dollars. The problem lays with dealers and aftermarket body manufactures , they give you the glitter and not the quality for a compleate package, of years of trouble free operatrions.
Richard

Altered Sprinter
07-22-2007, 02:32 PM
This commentary was because of Aftermarket manufactures building past the specifications of Mercedes-Benz' What the literature did not say what they were built on and how?
Of course it never went to court, now there are no more Winnies being bulit unless they come up with a cetified quality assurance compliance with full ISO standards before Mercedes-Benz approves the modifcations and the warranty will stand , No ones taken up the challeange Yet!
Richard
2573

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2577

BaywoodBill
07-22-2007, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the discussion about the tire wear. It will be a while before I'm able to get to an alignment shop.

Richard, do you have any simple way for me to determine what weight rating my axles are? You posted a VIN sheet that showed what the various codes are for 2007s but I haven't seen you post one for the earlier models.

jdcaples
07-22-2007, 05:46 PM
Richard, do you have any simple way for me to determine what weight rating my axles are? You posted a VIN sheet that showed what the various codes are for 2007s but I haven't seen you post one for the earlier models.


Attached is the North American 2005 VIN info.

-Jon

Altered Sprinter
07-22-2007, 11:43 PM
Thanks for the discussion about the tire wear. It will be a while before I'm able to get to an alignment shop.

Richard, do you have any simple way for me to determine what weight rating my axles are? You posted a VIN sheet that showed what the various codes are for 2007s but I haven't seen you post one for the earlier models.

Attached is the North American 2005 VIN info.

-Jon
Baywood Bill follow jons pdf and try to work from this information
Mate the compliance plates throw me off totally on your end, the front axle ratios were the ones for the older sprinters .
I need a photo front and rear to work out what you have,, to find an aftermarket solution for you thats local to your area. PS waith on the konie shocks with the buy group thing,thinking you may have been looking at that thread.
Richard

BaywoodBill
07-23-2007, 10:25 PM
Attached is the North American 2005 VIN info.

-Jon

That's super, Jon. Thanks. :bow:

I'll see what I can figure and maybe send some photos to Richard later.

BaywoodBill
07-23-2007, 10:27 PM
I need a photo front and rear to work out what you have,, to find an aftermarket solution for you thats local to your area. PS waith on the konie shocks with the buy group thing,thinking you may have been looking at that thread.
Richard

When I go for the photos, what ought to be the area of main focus? I have measured my anti-sway bars and found them to be the supposed stock ones... right at 1 inch in front and a little bit less in the rear.

Altered Sprinter
07-23-2007, 11:46 PM
Standard passenger rear end or light weight sports utility.
2606
H/Duty rear end for RVs or for large carrying capacity
2607
2608
Equals this front axle system wide hub
2609
2611 We need to find a H/D bar. and shocks, there was a post last week that stated the MB numbers for the said shocks, and I can't find the post.Richard